Singing Gremlin:

I love people like you. Really, I do. You're wonderful, the way you leap into the defence of anything and everything that might possibly need defending. I also have yet to meet one who isn't a raving hypocrite. I don't know you, so I might be wrong, but from experience people who are bastions of altruism are few and far between. As in nearly non-existant.

You want to be the hero who defends the stupid, go for it. But you're not really going to change human nature by shouting WAKE UP at the cheerfully malicious.

Well, I think you kind of missed the point. Bullies nearly always invent some kind of excuse to justify their actions - they asked for it, they had to learn what the real world is like sometime, they needed to be taught their mistake, etc. My aim is not to defend the people who are routinely bullied on the internet, but to point out an important fact to the antagonists:

There is no legitimate justification for being a dick for laughs. It isn't helpful to anybody. It isn't necessary. A person can much more easily be taught the same lesson in a helpful way. As I said, it's just a power trip. I'll be honest here - I do hate the abuse of power. Call me a hypocrite if you want, but it bothers me enough when I see it that I usually feel obliged to speak out.

I know that you can't change human nature - please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that I think so - but sometimes you CAN challenge individuals' ideas and make them think about things that they hadn't considered before. For me, that's a lot more fun/interesting than expecting the worst from people all the time and hiding behind a snide indifference. Thanks, I'd rather challenge myself to do something positive. But I'm sure your way works for you as well; it certainly works for lots of other people.

I'm not saying I condone telling people to reformat their computers, I just don't have any sympathy for the poor fool gullible enough to do it. If you go on the internet, you have to expect the worst from people. That way you're prepared for people trying to mess with you just for kicks.

High school. Years 9, 10 and 11. So that's ages... 16-13. I really don't know why they bother, no-one listens to anything they say. Ever.

John Galt:

Sib:
sorry to admit, but i may have helped someone convince an absolute internet noob (you know the kind that starts a post in a forum to aggressively and is a total jackass?)to delete his system32 folder.

was quite funny because after we convinced him, he just never was seen again...in retrospect it may have been a bit harsh

Nah, it's the noob's fault for listening to strangers telling him to monkey with his computer. If you're gullbile enough to do that, then you don't need to be on the internets. In a way it could have been for his own protection, he might have gotten sucked into one of those nigerian email schemes.

yay i feel all warm and fuzzy now, its like electro-shock therapy for the noob lol

John Galt:
I'm not saying I condone telling people to reformat their computers, I just don't have any sympathy for the poor fool gullible enough to do it. If you go on the internet, you have to expect the worst from people. That way you're prepared for people trying to mess with you just for kicks.

It may not seem like it to you, but there are lots of people on the internet who are either young children, know little to nothing about computers, or are fairly new to the whole online experience and simply don't know what to expect yet. Is this their fault? Of course not. Coming from real life experience, most people would assume this: when you ask someone for help and they respond, they're actually going to help you, not lie and fuck with you for kicks.

They do it for teh lulz

Frankly, you should educate your child about the internet and what can go wrong on it. Parents should be aware that the internet isn't entirely benign and that people exist who will try to disrupt your life. Never give your child a computer without telling them what they can and can't do.

Wolvaroo:
They do it for teh lulz

Ever since you posted that I think everyone has become obsessed with the Anonymous. I know I have.

cyber bullying, boo-fucking-hoo

1: Mute/Ignore the person
2: Disconnect

It's not that big of a deal and I have fun with whiners on online games who haven't figured this out yet.

p1ne:

Singing Gremlin:

I love people like you. Really, I do. You're wonderful, the way you leap into the defence of anything and everything that might possibly need defending. I also have yet to meet one who isn't a raving hypocrite. I don't know you, so I might be wrong, but from experience people who are bastions of altruism are few and far between. As in nearly non-existant.

You want to be the hero who defends the stupid, go for it. But you're not really going to change human nature by shouting WAKE UP at the cheerfully malicious.

Well, I think you kind of missed the point. Bullies nearly always invent some kind of excuse to justify their actions - they asked for it, they had to learn what the real world is like sometime, they needed to be taught their mistake, etc. My aim is not to defend the people who are routinely bullied on the internet, but to point out an important fact to the antagonists:

There is no legitimate justification for being a dick for laughs. It isn't helpful to anybody. It isn't necessary. A person can much more easily be taught the same lesson in a helpful way. As I said, it's just a power trip. I'll be honest here - I do hate the abuse of power. Call me a hypocrite if you want, but it bothers me enough when I see it that I usually feel obliged to speak out.

I know that you can't change human nature - please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that I think so - but sometimes you CAN challenge individuals' ideas and make them think about things that they hadn't considered before. For me, that's a lot more fun/interesting than expecting the worst from people all the time and hiding behind a snide indifference. Thanks, I'd rather challenge myself to do something positive. But I'm sure your way works for you as well; it certainly works for lots of other people.

hear hear :)

I take cyber-bullying very seriously, and I think it's very much in the same vein as the way girls bully each other in the real world.

Girls don't physically beat the victim or destroy their stuff (usually), instead they spread rumors, pass notes, talk about the victim in harsh or disgusting terms within earshot, whisper, point and laugh. All this is really effective because there's no way to hide from it, it becomes pervasive, and it's small but cumulative, so the victim can't report specific incidences of it because it just looks like they are being over-sensitive and if they try to note down a pattern of incidences, it just looks paranoid, especially when the perpetrator is called before whatever authority and denies it. Where's the proof?

Now take this dynamic and give it the scope and anonymity of the internet. Scenario: The victim is online and suddenly receives an IM from someone they don't recognize, asking, "Is it true you let [some guy's name] do you in the butt?" This continues. They block the person, but then a new screen name appears and the (frequently sexual) harassment continues. They quit going on IM, but then start receiving text messages on their phone. They find their email inbox full of vicious emails, all cc'd to people they know. They log onto some sort of social website like a forum or Myspace and find conversations about their supposed exploits. Finally, someone on the boards starts defending the victim, and then once the victim develops some emotional reliance or attachment to the defender, the "defender" turns around and posts, "I was wrong, everything everyone says about [victim] is true, and here's how I know."

What's the victim to do? Even if they give up their cell phone and abandon their internet identity, or even abandon the internet altogher, the victim knows it's still happening, and now they don't know how bad it is. And there's the fact that whoever started the whole thing knew their contact info, which means it was started by someone who broke into their identity or it was started by someone they know.

It's the combination of helplessness and paranoia that makes cyber-bullying so corrosive. This is not simple, "shut up noob u suck dick and I fucked ur mom." It is a campaign to destroy a person's social network and ability to trust other people.

From age 13 to 17, I was subject to whisper-campaign bullying. Thank god there was no internet as the time. I had a hard enough time surviving high school as it was. The same pack of kids (it really is a wolf pack mentality, isolate the weak and destroy them) also managed to drive out a teacher using the same tactics. And I bet they don't even remember doing the things that hurt other people so badly, and if they do, they think it was nothing or the don't care.

mshcherbatskaya:
[snip]

wow ive never actually seen it get that bad, let alone with that much...persistence. Really shows how much dedication hate can spawn, amd im sorry to hear you got so bullied in high school.

Wolvaroo:
They do it for teh lulz

seems like myb0t. (is that what they're called?)

I think that some people here on the Escapist are very Close Minded. Reading some of the above posts (and other threads) it seems that everyone see's things in only Black and White. Take for example whoever said "If he is stupid enough to delete things from his computer then he deserves it". This isn't true. Sure he may have been an idiot for taking advice from strangers but that dosn't mean that because of his stupidity he DESERVES to have his computer broken.

Here is and example.

Lets say that there was a man who devoted his life to charity. He worked and worked and worked to save the lives of children in Africa. If it wasnt for his sacrifice then many little children would die. Now lets say he gets a cut on his hand but does the stupid thing of leaving it bare. Now while preforming a check up on a child with aides some saliva from the childs mouth is put into the cut in his hand and the man contracts HIV and dies two years later. Did he deserve for that to happen him? Well I don't think so.

So if one little 12 year old (lets use MGG for an example) is picked on by people older then him and bigger then him and there is no way for MGG to fight back because if he tells someone (apart from his forum buddies) then he will be picked on even more and the bullies could just deny the actions and MGG is way to samll and weak to fight back himself. Does MGG deserve that being for weak?

If I looked on your Profile page, found where you lived, killed anyone that lives in your house including pets and then burn it all down, do you deserve that for being stupid and putting up your info on the Escapist?

I think the answer is NO but you seem to think that you deserve that.

Please, please think before you say what one gets one deserves.

Knight Templar:

Wolvaroo:
They do it for teh lulz

seems like myb0t. (is that what they're called?)

Its mygot and any gamer worth his salt should hate them.

Sib:

mshcherbatskaya:
[snip]

wow ive never actually seen it get that bad, let alone with that much...persistence. Really shows how much dedication hate can spawn, amd im sorry to hear you got so bullied in high school.

It's a game to them, it really is. They treat it like it's PvP n00b-hunt, except there's no way off the server for the target. And to belabor the metaphor, they tend to camp on your spawn point for about 3-4 years. I think it is more common than people realize. Certainly I wasn't the only one in my school. Of course, we didn't have internet anonymity in 1986, so I knew exactly who was after me, which didn't do sh*t to help me deal with it. There were too many of them and they were too good at it, and even the people who believe me when I tried to talk about it couldn't offer me anything more than, "Just don't let it get to you." Which is, I suppose, the old-fashioned way of saying, "Just block and mute them." If it's the real deal, as opposed to the online equivalent of getting shoved on the playground, block and mute are useless.

mshcherbatskaya:

Sib:

mshcherbatskaya:
[snip]

wow ive never actually seen it get that bad, let alone with that much...persistence. Really shows how much dedication hate can spawn, amd im sorry to hear you got so bullied in high school.

[snip again]

aye, but to continue the pvp noobhunt metaphor, you can always gather some 1337 friends or mods to help you. besides if you know who they are you can always give them a good kick...maybe that only works for boys?

Fire Daemon:
I think that some people here on the Escapist are very Close Minded. Reading some of the above posts (and other threads) it seems that everyone see's things in only Black and White. Take for example whoever said "If he is stupid enough to delete things from his computer then he deserves it". This isn't true. Sure he may have been an idiot for taking advice from strangers but that dosn't mean that because of his stupidity he DESERVES to have his computer broken.

Here is and example.

Lets say that there was a man who devoted his life to charity. He worked and worked and worked to save the lives of children in Africa. If it wasnt for his sacrifice then many little children would die. Now lets say he gets a cut on his hand but does the stupid thing of leaving it bare. Now while preforming a check up on a child with aides some saliva from the childs mouth is put into the cut in his hand and the man contracts HIV and dies two years later. Did he deserve for that to happen him? Well I don't think so.

So if one little 12 year old (lets use MGG for an example) is picked on by people older then him and bigger then him and there is no way for MGG to fight back because if he tells someone (apart from his forum buddies) then he will be picked on even more and the bullies could just deny the actions and MGG is way to samll and weak to fight back himself. Does MGG deserve that being for weak?

If I looked on your Profile page, found where you lived, killed anyone that lives in your house including pets and then burn it all down, do you deserve that for being stupid and putting up your info on the Escapist?

I think the answer is NO but you seem to think that you deserve that.

Please, please think before you say what one gets one deserves.

I think you're looking at in black and white as well. There's a difference between a humanitarian who willingly leaves a wound bare and a child with no options.

Most likely the humanitarian knew that his hand could get infected and if he chose to leave it bare, then he must accept responsibility for it. I feel if he's responsible for an action, then he deserves what he gets by using his own judgement, as poor as it was. Just as a wee noob would be responsible for reformatting his computer on bad advice, he would be deserving of the effect of using poor judgement.

Since the child is not responsible for the situation, he doesn't deserve to be picked on. Also, if a child is picked on, you'd figure he could go to his parents for help. What parents would accept someone else's testimony over their own child's?

Sib:

mshcherbatskaya:

Sib:

mshcherbatskaya:
[snip]

wow ive never actually seen it get that bad, let alone with that much...persistence. Really shows how much dedication hate can spawn, amd im sorry to hear you got so bullied in high school.

[snip again]

aye, but to continue the pvp noobhunt metaphor, you can always gather some 1337 friends or mods to help you. besides if you know who they are you can always give them a good kick...maybe that only works for boys?

If you are a n00b in the situation I described, you can't attack physically because it just makes them the victims and justifies all future attacks, the mods won't believe you need help, and your friends won't help for fear of making targets of themselves, or they already are targets. Or sometimes, they are/become the bullies. One of girls who went after me was a former best friend. We came back from not seeing each other during summer break and somehow she'd gotten cool. Nice for her, tough for me. She's now a deputy prosecuting attorney, so apparently she turned her talent for backing people into a corner to good use.

Hmm, girls are more manipulative than boys i guess. But at least you helped train her for her job?

Its really too bad that it happend to you, you seem like a really nice person but this sort of thing always seems to happen to the nicer ones :(

sapient:
Cyber-bullying is what you make of it, really. Cyber-bullying goes something like this:

Person 1: You're gay.
Person 2: No I'm not.
Person 1: STFU JEW
Person 2: What? I'm not a Jew.
Person 3: IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAND

There's no point arguing with these fuckwits because nothing's going to be achieved. Real bullying goes something like this:

Person 1: Hey guys, can I play?
Person 2: No.
Person 1: Why?
Person 2: Because you're gay and we had sex with your mother.
Person 3: Also you have no friends.
Person 1 usually either starts a fist fight or goes and tells the teacher.

You don't usually see this happening with adults, because adults are usually mature enough not to discriminate and usually mature enough not to say things like "your mum lolol" or "ur gay". Okay, we have exceptions, but it seems cyber-bullying is just children degrading other children verbally in the guise of adults. The final verdict? Cyber-bullies aren't cyber bullies, they're 12 year olds.

EXACTLY.
I have only ever encountered this kind of thing when playing games that are far more likely to be swarmed with 12 year olds trying to feel big about themselves. halo 3 is one such example, which is a real shame because its great fun to play online. you can always pick them by their whiny voice, and tendency to use 'your mum' 'you're gay' and other such substanceless insults. really their insults dont bother me at all, its the fact that they are so incredbily annoying. to use halo 3 as an example again, when you are in ranked team slayer and your are trying to communicate tactics with the rest fo your team, but there is one person on your team that insists on yelling with every kill: 'OMFG I PWNZORED THAT NOOB, I AM SO TEH 1337 HAXX'. Followed by an array of pathetic insults to anyone who tells him so shut his trap. usually what i do is a) just block them (which i cant see why the block button is devil-spawn, its a life saver sometimes) or b) because the kind of brats who are likely to be like this have no capacity for thoguht whatsoever, just banter with them until they realise that they are losing this battle of wits by repeatedly using 'your mum' as a comeback. with the exception of the incredibly stupid ones, this usually works.

mshcherbatskaya:
I take cyber-bullying very seriously, and I think it's very much in the same vein as the way girls bully each other in the real world.

Girls don't physically beat the victim or destroy their stuff (usually), instead they spread rumors, pass notes, talk about the victim in harsh or disgusting terms within earshot, whisper, point and laugh. All this is really effective because there's no way to hide from it, it becomes pervasive, and it's small but cumulative, so the victim can't report specific incidences of it because it just looks like they are being over-sensitive and if they try to note down a pattern of incidences, it just looks paranoid, especially when the perpetrator is called before whatever authority and denies it. Where's the proof?

Now take this dynamic and give it the scope and anonymity of the internet. Scenario: The victim is online and suddenly receives an IM from someone they don't recognize, asking, "Is it true you let [some guy's name] do you in the butt?" This continues. They block the person, but then a new screen name appears and the (frequently sexual) harassment continues. They quit going on IM, but then start receiving text messages on their phone. They find their email inbox full of vicious emails, all cc'd to people they know. They log onto some sort of social website like a forum or Myspace and find conversations about their supposed exploits. Finally, someone on the boards starts defending the victim, and then once the victim develops some emotional reliance or attachment to the defender, the "defender" turns around and posts, "I was wrong, everything everyone says about [victim] is true, and here's how I know."

What's the victim to do? Even if they give up their cell phone and abandon their internet identity, or even abandon the internet altogher, the victim knows it's still happening, and now they don't know how bad it is. And there's the fact that whoever started the whole thing knew their contact info, which means it was started by someone who broke into their identity or it was started by someone they know.

It's the combination of helplessness and paranoia that makes cyber-bullying so corrosive. This is not simple, "shut up noob u suck dick and I fucked ur mom." It is a campaign to destroy a person's social network and ability to trust other people.

From age 13 to 17, I was subject to whisper-campaign bullying. Thank god there was no internet as the time. I had a hard enough time surviving high school as it was. The same pack of kids (it really is a wolf pack mentality, isolate the weak and destroy them) also managed to drive out a teacher using the same tactics. And I bet they don't even remember doing the things that hurt other people so badly, and if they do, they think it was nothing or the don't care.

you have a good point there. i have been the subject of that sort of thing on occasion before, even recently. to use the recent example; i watch anime, right? some fool found out about this from one of my friends and decided he would start spreading rumours that i watched 'kiddy cartoons'. so in turn i had people coming up to me all over the place and saying things such as 'i heard you watch cartoons! are you five or what?' but this soon stopped after they persons involved in spreading the rumours figured out that i couldnt give a **** what they think. their being too intellectually handicapped and ignorant pricks to be able to understand what anime actually is is not my problem. my friends knew the truth, and thats all you should really care about. its the same rule with any kind of bullying, if you dont react, the bully doesnt get their kicks and they stop. you win. sure, it can be socially damaging if the rumours are sexually based, but only a weak minded perseon would actually care what everyone else but the people important to them think. and if your friends start going along with it as well, then they arent really friends. people who bully want one of two things, one, to feel big about themselves by putting down someone else, or in the case of whisper campaigns, its to have a crack at ruining someone elses social life, generallby beacause they are a) jealous or b) dont have one.

so my final point is 'like water off a duck's back'. dont let it get to you, and theyll stop. usually.

Sib:
Hmm, girls are more manipulative than boys i guess. But at least you helped train her for her job?

Its really too bad that it happend to you, you seem like a really nice person but this sort of thing always seems to happen to the nicer ones :(

Girls can be just a brutal as guys, they just go about it differently. It was the girl equivalent of getting the shit kicked out of me every day in the parking lot, which is I think the more standard boy-style bullying.

I don't know that I'm particularly nice, but I think I am cruelty-averse, largely because of that. I was a poor kid in a rich school. That's what it came down to in the end. It happened to my little brother too, all through junior high, until one day my younger sister (between the two of us in age) went down to his school in her her black leather goth outfit (y'know, her everyday clothes...) and informed them that she would kick the shit out of them if they didn't cut it out. She was the badass sandwiched between the two geeks in the family. Still is. If she were a gamer, she'd definitely be kicking ass and taking names online, screw the RPG crap I like. And if a guy gave her noise about being female, he'd be the one reaching for the mute/block buttons. My sister can swear for 30 minutes straight and never repeat herself once.

wow, thats an admirable talent...thats worse than a one eyed carpenter, or a scouser.

I've only ad a problem with the pricks who are 80000000 Miles/kilometers/I.Q. points away from me...everyone close to me is scared shitless that i will burn their house down so this didn't become that. So it never became much of a problem to me. However if i do see pointless flaming i will throw my steal pipe in...adn at the abuser's scrotum/ovaries...whatever you have.

BigNiceJohn:
Willie Nelson said something along the lines of "If you're doing something that you'd be embarrassed about if other people found out, you shouldn't be doing it." That goes for the Star Wars kid, sex tapes, and really anything.

Yeah, that is true. If I ever find out my daughter is doing porn, especially if I find it out by watching one of her movies, she and I will have a long talk. It is his fault for leaving the tape there. I don't feel any worse for him than i would if it had been me on that tape.