| (Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4) | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1642 Joined: 1 Feb 2008     | |
Paperboy Posts: 13 Joined: 30 Mar 2008 |
Wow, I just joined this forum and this is the first post I see. Let me contribute to this whole argument. Sentience simply means having the ability to perceive and feel. You can't look at your family dog and think for second that he/she can't feel an emotion or perceive their surroundings. You yell at them, they cower. You pet them, they sit down and relax. Even some of the lowliest creatures have this ability; how else would a bee know whether or not a creature is being a threat and whether or not to sting them? The only forms of life this doesn't apply to would be anything without any sort of Central Nervous System; amoeba, plants, fungi, etc. As for our place in the food chain, at once we may have been required to hunt to survive. Our bodies just aren't equipped for it; even prehistoric man wasn't physically equipped for it. We have no fangs to kill with, very few incisors to tear flesh with, lack the speed of most land-hunters and lack the strength of the rest of the hunters. The only things we have are 2 eyes in front of our head, allowing us depth perception and a brain with which to think. Neither of these physical qualities alone would make us "hunters". Our brain-power that people like to tout can just as easily be used for creating cures to diseases, learning medicine and even veterinary medicine as well first aid devices designed to save lives. Instead the steadfast carnivores amongst us like to use our ability to think a as reason we were meant to hunt/eat meat - create weapons designed to kill. This same intelligence allowed us to create agriculture and grow food directly from the ground. In fact, civilization owes its existence to this ability; without it, we'd still be following herds of Buffalo around the prairies. Health wise, you can't even begin to argue for eating meat. The same nutrition you can get from a 16 oz slab of steak can be obtained through a variety of grains, vegetables, nuts and legumes. Through eating that variety, you not only gain the same protein and iron nutrients, but stock up on a huge amount of other beneficial ones as well. Whereas with the steak, the only additional ingredient you get is cholesterol. Morally speaking, most people in my experience like to plead ignorance. They don't know or want to know anything about their food. It's not until you see a slaughterhouse, battery cage or factory farm that you begin to realize exactly what we're doing to the rest of the animals on the planet. Here's some advice to anyone in this boat - next time you see an animal rights video showing the inner operations of one of these places, don't just ignore it without looking. If I couldn't do it to myself, my family or my friends, then I wouldn't do it to an animal. I won't make someone else do it for me either since that would be the same as simply having someone else commit those atrocities against my family and friends on my behalf. My goal is to be able to get through this life while causing as little suffering to others as possible and to live a compassionate life dedicated to helping others who need it. As Buddha said, "One who eats meat kills the seed of great compassion." My reasons also extend over to the environmental ones as well. If you do just a little bit of research into what it takes to keep the meat industry going, you'd be floored. The carbon emissions, air pollution, water pollution, etc. all add up to a huge impact on the planet. Not to mention much land being overgrazed, or having been overgrazed for hundreds of years now. You might be surprised to know that the Southwestern US used to have a lot more grassland and vegetation 200 years ago, before cattle ranchers, then it does today. So for the original poster - I'm not just a vegetarian living this way for one reason over another. Although I may have chosen this for the moral reasons, all of them now apply. (I'm actually vegan) |
Paperboy Posts: 14 Joined: 30 Mar 2008  |
Do you know what sutra that quote is from? I have this argument a lot with some other Buddhists and I would like that for reference ^_^. Long time ghost, first time poster. I can't resist this argument. I first became a vegetarian mainly because I am a Buddhist. Its not required of the Buddhist faith, but once you become a practitioner, it becomes harder and harder with time to remain compassionate and mindful of all beings and not feel terrible about eating meat. And I realized my only objection to not becoming a vegetarian was because, well, meat tastes good. But plenty of veggie food tastes great, and I have found a substitute for all things I used to eat, and now I've forgotten what most meat tastes like. I take supplements as well to make sure I get all of my nutrients. I know farming in general, even for vegetables, can create suffering for animals, but the point to me is that I want to cause as little harm in life as I possibly can. Although recently my reasons is just sheer disgust for the way animals are treated before they die. I watched a documentary called "Earthlings." It looked at five ways we use animals: Pets, Food, Clothing, Testing, and Entertainment. I got half way through the food section before I had to turn it off. For days after all I could hear when I was trying to sleep was cows and pigs screaming >.< It was horrible and its all I can think about when I see meat. |
Beat Writer Posts: 156 Joined: 17 May 2007     | I was all set to lay out my opinions at length, but Mshcher has gone and explained them all better than I could have, so I'll shorten this comment and say "ditto to everything she said." A few people seem to be arguing at cross purposes over the word "amoral". Amoral doesn't mean immoral, it means "ethically indifferent". When animals and most humans eat meat, they don't feel guilty or righteous, they just like the taste. I eat meat, but only rarely. That's mainly because the environmental cost of a plate of meat is much greater than the environmental cost of a plate of vegetables. I think it's pretty clear that the world won't be able to support the growing human population for much longer if we don't change our ways, and eating less meat is a relatively effortless change that makes a huge difference to your environmental footprint. So I think of meat as an expensive treat, one that is ok to have from time to time as long as you appreciate it. The argument that not eating meat causes the meat to go to waste is blatantly illogical. It might apply for a single day at a single store, but the big picture is that supermarkets and butchers, like any other business, only want to order as much stock as they will sell; they don't want to throw their money away. The fewer people who eat meat, the less meat will be bought, the less meat the stores will order, the less animals the slaughterhouses will kill, the less cows the farms will send off for breeding, the less cow farts will be heating up the planet. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 200 Joined: 13 Feb 2008  |
Here here. Joeshie, you are fare and respectful. Unlike the *%@# face Allmightyjoe |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1270 Joined: 14 Sep 2007  |
Don't take this personally, but I disagree with your views and now want to eat meat even more because your argument makes no God damn sense. Also, you just implied that a whole section of humanity is homosexual and has no feelings because of their choice in diet, which makes you an arsehole. And if the death of animals is such a problem to you, do you isolate all products which originated from animals, like wool and gelatin? That said... I'm fine with vegetarians, bar the nutty ones with no religion who would actually kill a man to save an animal who work for PETA and slosh blood onto the face of celebrities they don't know the name of for no good reason at all. I'm also cool with religions where vegetarianism is law, because they have the best food. I don't think I could be one, as I lack any religion and find it hard to get angry at KFC because Chicken #467953-A2 got deep fried. One thing I don't understand is that a lot of vegetarians still eat fish. Could someone clear this up for me? |
Beat Writer Posts: 200 Joined: 13 Feb 2008 |
For goodness sake how many times must I say this?!? TAKE 1 IS MY ACTUAL OPINION AND TAKE 2 IS HUMOROUS! I started Take 2 with "Ignorant Hate Speach" wasn't that enough? And I completely agree with you about the nutty "PETA" pricks. They are an embarrassment to vegetarians. And the reason some vegetarians eat fish is because we need the protein and fish seems like a better option then chicken |
Beat Writer  Posts: 181 Joined: 13 Dec 2007    | It doesn't always have to be a question of following trends, morality, or as it somehow came to pass, sexual orientation (thank you Jawless for that astute and accurate social analysis.) One of my friends is a vegetarian, and she is not a trend follower (she's the only one I've ever met) nor does she believe that humans shouldn't eat meat. She just finds it gross. She just gets sick thinking about having the seared flesh of a once-living creature being slowly digested inside her. So for those of you who think all veggies must be raving lunatics/insecure socialites/gay, just remember that it's a choice, so just STFU and let them get on with it if it bothers you so much. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1270 Joined: 14 Sep 2007 |
And right on cue, I'll bust out Scientology and the Peyote Way Church of God. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1270 Joined: 14 Sep 2007 |
Oh, my bads. I have very little faith in humanity and seriously believed you could have been that stupid. Muchos apologies. If you need the protein, go with legumes, man. Think of all the curry... |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 103 Joined: 21 Dec 2007 |
In that case I retract my previous inflammatory statement. You got me there. I am fairly new to ecocritical thinking, i'm still in my second week of studying it as a module at Uni. Though I didn't say it in the best way (thats hindsight for you), the point I was trying to make was that it isn't the fact of eating meat alone that causes so much destruction, it is, as you rightly pointed out (and in a more articulate fashion) that sheer scale of global consumption that has such dire consequences for the environment. Sustainability, as you said, is the key. Who knows, maybe the only real solution is for the human population to shrink back to 2 Billion (or 1/2 a Billion...I can't remember off the top of my head what the sustainable population level would be - still new to this way of thinking). |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 947 Joined: 16 Jan 2008   |
Hang on, that says it's all used for human benefit, then the leftovers are fed to animals? |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 947 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 | Sorry for the double post chaps, this guy is really getting on my tits.
Ok, calm down. A few points: |
Paperboy Posts: 13 Joined: 30 Mar 2008 |
Actually I do, it's from the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. It's always fascinating to see how one can become a vegetarian/vegan for one reason and then gain the benefit of the other reasons as well. If you become one out of compassion, then you also gain the health benefits. If you become one for the health benefits, then you also become more aware of the compassionate lifestyle. As for those omnivores saying to "just let them be" for this argument, that's a noble gesture in theory. The only problem is, to you, the issue is between you and the other person. To them, the issue is between you, them and the animals you potentially harm. Unfortunately those animals can't present their argument so "just letting it be" isn't a valid option for most animal-rights vegetarians. Think of it in terms like I mentioned - as members of your family or friends. If a person walked in to your house and killed all of your family members then turned to you and said they wouldn't hurt you and shook your hand, how exactly would you feel? This is basically the same mind-set animal-rights vegetarians have on this issue. It's impossible to simply drop it once it's brought up since it stirs such strong emotions. |
Paperboy Posts: 20 Joined: 17 Jan 2008 | Before I get into arguments in depth, I must remark that I am always impressed by the level of vehemence being a vegetarian can inspire in people like yourself mightyjoe. It is my experience that most people who eat meat simply haven't thought about the full implications seriously. I have yet to meet a fanatical vegetarian/vegan despite hanging in circles that should have been full of them. I myself prefer to avoid debate wherever possible, although I ask people simply to decide where their line is, and make a choice. I do not think meat eaters are inherently evil, merely they have made a different choice to myself. I'm not impressed by Maddox arguments. By his own admission reducing the amount of meat eaten will reduce the amount of animals killed. I don't think many people are arguing that we should prioritize animal life over our own, but when given a choice, we will choose to spare that animals life. Seems like a good principle to me. There are two principles at work here, one, the environmental argument, is extremely sound, and calls for if not an elimination of meat from ones diet, a rapid reduction of it instead. I find this argument more compelling, actually, and this is the main reason I no longer eat meat. However, the basic idea that I feel that killing animals for food is wrong is still something I stand by. Essentially we have to eat vegetation, so cutting down on the death of small cuddly animals from that will be extremely difficult without deeply disturbing habitats and putting all creatures into a petting zoo out of harms way. It's a basic principle- I don't need to kill them to eat, so I won't. On a slight tangent, something I find extremely curious about this debate is most people are vehemently opposed to the fur industry, where animals are killed for clothing. But as we know both clothing from animals and food from animals is not necessary... why is one bad and the other not? It's something I have failed to understand, but meh.... |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1642 Joined: 1 Feb 2008 |
No, it says that over 200 million pounds of soybeans were produced for something other than direct human food consumption. That 200+ million is then divided into oil and meal. The meal, used for feed, is the valuable part. The oil is a byproduct of the animal feed production (it doesn't say that in the article, but I'm sure with a bit of Googling I could pull up some info) and as such is so cheap that it has come to dominate the vegetable oil market. Now, where things start to get interesting is that, with biodiesel on the rise, that oil has another use, so we will probably start growing more soybeans (which is incredibly destructive to soil quality when grown on a large scale) in order to feed both livestock and cars. While I love the idea of getting away from running cars on dead dinosaurs, I don't trust the oil industry and I don't trust the transnational agribusiness companies, and the prospect of an unholy marriage of the two keeps me up at night. EDIT: Just to make sure this all ties back to the original post - All this sustainability stuff is a big reason, outside of an individual's beliefs regarding the killing of animals, why people become vegetarians. Sure, it is possible to produce meat sustainably, but if one don't happen to live in an area where sustainably produced meat is available, then one might turn to vegetarianism as an option. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 947 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 | Oh, right you are. Utilising the ability to read I now see the "more highly valued meal" part. Thought the meal was a by-product of the oil, not vice versa. Pure genius from the Gremlin, as always... |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1642 Joined: 1 Feb 2008 |
The fact that you are studying ecocritical thought at all is awesome. And I'm not trying to gotcha people (I only do that on feminism threads ;P) it's just that there is a lot of misinformation floating around and a lot of it is spread by vegetarians as well. In your original response, you touched on some class issues involved in the organic/"ethical" food thing, and I think that is also a very involved, worthwhile, and interesting discussion. And I absolutely will not have that discussion on these boards. I'm willing to ride out a Cat 3 shit-storm, but I'm pretty sure that one would go Cat 5, and I'm sure Joe is busy enough as it is without having to start sandbagging threads. Sort of drifting off topic here, one of the organic farms I have visited has set aside a patch of land to experiement with Forest Gardening, which looks pretty promising as a way of maximizing sustainable food production per hectare/acre. I'm excited to see how that goes for them. OH, AND - To clear up a question that keeps popping up: If you do not eat any animal or animal-derived food products, you are a vegan. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1642 Joined: 1 Feb 2008 |
Must...resist...temptation... *reminds self that this would require digging all those back issues of Sinister Wisdom out of storage* Phew, that was close. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 103 Joined: 21 Dec 2007 |
I'd rather be shown where any argument of mine is flawed than continue to be in the wrong. I think your right about the Cat3/5 shitstorm...debates such as those are best kept away from gaming forums, where the focal point of discussion should be, well, gaming. Thanks for posting that link to Forest Gardening by the way, thats actually going to be very handy as a starting point for some of my research. Oh, and keep on gotcha-ing people ;). You've made some damned insightful comments in the time I've been on this forum. |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 2 Joined: 31 Mar 2008 | adding my .02 Forgive me if I say things that have already been said, I've only read bits and pieces of the thread. I think the main reason why veggies have such a bad rep as meat hating hippies is because their way of life is constantly under fire from all the meat eaters everywhere else. They then take the moral high ground and we've got ourselves a big to-do. I have a few veggie friends, though I'd say why some of them are vegetarian is a little unconventional... I have a friend who became a veggie on a bet and she's stayed that way for six or so years now. I know others who do it because their parents are and one friend who does it because she says the meat industry wastes too much water washing off the dead cows and stuff. I don't know how truthful that is, but if she thinks she's helping then good for her. Though she does eat chicken and some fish occasionally, so I dunno what her deal is :\ I've actually considered becoming a veggie for the simple fact that I think vegetables taste better. I hate the way meat tastes, it's dry, and tough, just not something I want to deal with when I'm eating. You also have to make sure its cooked thoroughly, something I just don't have the patience for. And even when I do eat meat it has to be rare, or raw, or seafood and if you couldn't tell I'm a big fan of sushi. One thing I am against is supplements. I don't like taking vitamins, or medicine unless I know exactly how it works. If you read the back of some of those containers they say they give 400% of your daily amount of calcium, as an example. I'm sorry but I don't need that much calcium. And to my understanding most of the vitamins in those pills just pass through your body anyway. I always warn my family to not O.D. on their fat-soluble vitamins! I'm more of a live and let live, or an eat and let eat, kinda person. And to those of you who think fish are dumb, try owning something a little more interesting than a goldfish for once. I've got cichlids who recognize me as the one who takes care of them and feeds them. They hide from the rest of my family. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 166 Joined: 5 Mar 2008 | gonna go all religious on ya, but god gave us domain over all the animals (btw i am not religious just using that)Personally i dont get vegie eaters, i have a few friends who are vegetarians, many i have got into arguments with but i always say one thing: "People are killing animals, you aint gonna stop that so eat them so they didn't die in vain." All those raving hypocrits who believe they're gonna change the world aren't. However they're those who don't eat it becasue they don't like it, i accept that. But i dont towards, those who don't do it it becasue they think it is wrong, yes we have all seen the slaughterhouses etc etc, what were u expecting a smeging tea party. That being said, sorry for all those i have offended, but i just don't take vegetarians who have no valid reason (except that they hate the taste) seriously |
Beat Writer Posts: 166 Joined: 5 Mar 2008 |
Mainly becasue we don't need fur to live a healthy and balanced lifestyle [btw anyone who starts quoting that so and so is better for you than meat, get real, meats there for us to eat unless u want me to go all enviromental on you :), and deforestationnness], personally aslong as they kill the animal for meat and use the fur all be it, but there are those who just kill for fur |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2028 Joined: 18 Dec 2007  | It seems like the main reason why people are vegans is due to social experiences. We are far to use to having our meat cleanly wrapped up in plastic, fresh for the evening meal. When you buy meant you don't need to think of it as something that once had any feeling or that once was alive, its just food. But when people learn that meat was alive and had feelings etc they think that eating it is wrong. Why? Because if something has no face then its easy to destroy. People see cows being slaughtered and think that what your eating is not a leg but a slaughtered animal. No one looks down at their burger and wonders if it once felt joy, peace maybe even love. But as soon as you do this you start drawing conections between you and your burger. Thats when you decide that eating meat is wrong. And then you have the "Popularity" vegans. This is when what you eat is chosen by what your friends are eating. For example Emo guy and emo girl Emo Girl: Oh my god don't you know how much that animal suffered I have heard this happen. This is fashion that is backed up by the image of "slaughter=not cool". These people have no real reason for not eating meat as compared to the people who: a) Don't think animals deserve to die (these are the laid back but will not touch a sasuage people) Frankly I hate fashion vegans. |
You are welcome to call me Mshcher if that's easier. I was mostly joking about adding religion in a "haha it's funny cuz it's true" way. I'm not sure what sort of Troll-Slayer you would be. I was a Druid who could create Moats of Excess Verbiage and Summon swarms of Fangirls. As you can see above, I can also Web-Link as a ranged attack.
Also, since this forum doesn't actually use HTML, it can get rather confusing.