The internet, what a place. A place for people to make friends, for people to play games, socialise, A place for people to voice their opinion in a public forum. So why is it when voicing your opinion you encounter people who refuse to think about where your coming from, your point of view on the matter, the way you reason your point. Why is it that when you voice your opinion, usually if it is hypercritical, that it is instantly shut down with no reasoning at all, with the exception of YOU BEING WRONG.

I don't get it?

Recently I have begun to notice people getting more and more agitated to my view points and opinions. Even when I structure the post in a way that gives everyone a chance to voice their own. Say I went to a forum and a topic was about chicken or ham, if the majority says chicken and I say ham, I am frowned upon for coming to the conclusion that ham is delicious.

Why is that so?

Why am I not allowed to voice an opinion that strays for the norm of society? how can an opinion be wrong?

An opinion is based around a person's upbringing, their cultural background or the influence of schooling and their parents. So how can you say someone's opinion is wrong on something when they are ultimately saying what they believe is correct?

So what if I like ham more so than chicken? Maybe as a child I was always eating ham, how the fuck do you know any better? This is a subject that particularly bugs me in the way that people think they are ultimately right no matter how well someone tries to explain something.
Why can you not just accept that people can form their own opinions, why do you always perceive yourself as being right constantly?
Why can't you accept that in all reality, that life is not black and white, people make their own conclusions to things and problems and that your way is not the only way.

It falls hand in hand with band wagoning and E-popularity. A person who is more likely to agree with someone who is "popular" with other forumers is more than likely to progress in the E-popularity contest of the internet. Or it is reverse, You share the same opinion as someone, you state that you do and these are the reasons why and you are called a bandwagoneer. Why is it that i'm considered stupid for voicing my own opinion that ultimately varies from someone else's when I reason why I came to that conclusion.
"My opinion is X, and I came to this because of Y and Z."
Why is that so hard to understand, you are not always right, Why can't you keep an open mind and accept that there are other points of view out there?

Um, maybe your talking about other forums, in which case, I can't help you. If you're talking 'bout The Escapist, I've never been called wrong, except on matters where there has been evidence to prove me wrong, in the matter of objective information. Though, could you give me some examples Pie?

- A procrastinator

this is stupid, open mindedness is just wrong, why cant you just ACCEPT IT?!? [/poor joke premise]

on topic:

The internet strips away several factors of traditional debate

1) time: an argument can run over days, not just the usual 40 minutes tops people will normally devote
2) protocol: you can be typing a response at the same time as your opposition, and so the presenting and rebuttal of points becomes a stagnant cycle
3) Opinion: opinion is a virus, people want to share their own, if someone says "the Wii is not a true console, and as such is a mere toy" people feel the need not to let that idea infect the minds of others, we do it in RL, we do it on the internet.
4) no consequence: you can go ape and insult someone with no rammification, and theres no incentive to stop, you cant 'escape' this person as you can always come back and look, when we leave the room with someone we are arguing with, we take ourselves away, not get away.

people find blatant 'ignorance' anathema, but i think this is a better thing than blind acceptance, highs and lows i guess

People are idiots. They're either trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic.

Kogarian:
People are idiots. They're either trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic.

just a thought. but the generalization does support your point. i'm not being mean that just stood out to me.

in any case, i stick by my point that the internet just destroys our capacity for logical conversation, it pushes our opinions to extremes.

Ultrajoe:

Kogarian:
People are idiots. They're either trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic.

just a thought. but the generalization does support your point. i'm not being mean that just stood out to me.

in any case, i stick by my point that the internet just destroys our capacity for logical conversation, it pushes our opinions to extremes.

Yes, it certainly does. It applies to everyone. I've never met a person who didn't fall under the criteria for at least on of those, at some point in their life.

Kogarian:
Yes, it certainly does. It applies to everyone. I've never met a person who didn't fall under the criteria for at least on of those, at some point in their life.

I actually was a pretty big PS2 fanboy when I was about 12, so, you can't hold it against someone if they realise their mistake and try and see arguments objectively.

- A procrastinator

Kogarian:
Yes, it certainly does. It applies to everyone. I've never met a person who didn't fall under the criteria for at least on of those, at some point in their life.

No I'm pretty sure your wrong about that. Do you really expect me to believe you meet everyone?

Th reason why people can't handle being called wrong over the internet. By being called wrong you are in a sense being called stupid, an idiot. By saying someone is wrong other the internet you are insulting them.

Take the above example. I called Kogarian wrong by saying that his post is stupid. In a way I am saying that he is stupid. While this is not an out right insult it can still have the effect of an out right insult.

This coupled with the ability to say what you want to who you want on the internet causes internet fights. A good example of this is the console Flame Wars most likely started by one person calling another persons choice in console wrong.

PS: Kogarian, I don't think you are an idiot but I do think you are a bit Narrow Minded and ignorant by claiming everyone is an idiot seeing as how an idiot is only an idiot when compared to the rest of society.

Uh, Ultrajoe, you made a thread about being stubborn and close-minded to the point you think people deserve a bloody end for not knowing a pokemon game. Seems like you're a textbook case.

With me, I'm rather opinionated, but I'm also extremely fascinated why people have different opinions than I do, so I listen intently and try to understand. Whether in real life or on the internet. I ask questions instead of making verdicts. Often it can be mildly insulting, like "How on earth can you LIKE Nickelback? Honestly, I don't understand!", but it's still a question and I really do want to know the answer.

And Kogarian, I don't believe that to be the case. Based on elections and the media it seems like the majority of people are like that, but people I actually meet generally aren't. I know three people who really are, and one that takes it to an extreme, but in comparison, it's a small proportion. I know a lot of really open-minded people. Or perhaps I just make a really convincing argument and my perspective is distorted as a result. Point is, I'm sure you can come up with several exceptions.

how can an opinion be wrong?

If it is not in accordance with reality, it is wrong...
E.G. "my opinion is that the moon is made out of cheese" is wrong.

For the cases you mentioned, which were about what a person like or not it is true though. What you like and not like is subjective and as such discussing which is best is usually a bit futile. (Which is one reason why the console vs PC debates are so annoying).

"A mind is like a fortress. It should be kept closed." (weak attempt at a joke)

Quite frankly, the general population isn't as stupid as the segment of it we see on the internet seems to suggest. That means that there must be something about the internet that affects the way people communicate. Ultrajoe's four factors are good, but I'd like to add a fifth one.

5) Seriousness: People will either take things on the internet more or less seriously than they would take the same debate in real life.

Most people aren't "idiots...trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic," in my experience at least. They just confuse opinion with reality.

Zemalac:
They just confuse opinion with reality.

I think it has a bit more to do with people not stating opinion as anything other then fact. A lot of arguments I see are where people say something that's obviously an opinion, but it's worded as though it's a fact (see the quote, it's an opinion, but it's stated as a fact when pulled by itself). And I know that I can't let an obviously wrong 'fact' go. It doesn't really matter if it's in person or on the internet, if someone states an opinion as fact, I have a tendency to try and correct them (or at least the desire too).

From there, I think it's just people putting badly worded opinions against each other, which then compounds into the "Internet Fuckwad Theory".

Ultrajoe:

4) no consequence: you can go ape and insult someone with no rammification, and theres no incentive to stop, you cant 'escape' this person as you can always come back and look, when we leave the room with someone we are arguing with, we take ourselves away, not get away.

people find blatant 'ignorance' anathema, but i think this is a better thing than blind acceptance, highs and lows i guess

yeah i call that the "can't get punched in the face cause you're a wanker" syndrome

if there was a punch the wanker on the other side of the screen button, it would one stop ppl from being stupid and also cause ppl to abuse it cause well they're wankers

Kogarian:
People are idiots. They're either trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic.

i second that, i can't name the amount of blind hate and lack of education and i hate to place blame but a lot of american media and schooling isn't the most worldly conscious and outward facing so a lot of ppl are ignorant. it's not all american and not exclusively them, cause lord knows i've met some really stupid canadians and brits

i'd have to blame society and lack of good education and lazy teachers and even worse parents

cleverlymadeup:
i'd have to blame society and lack of good education and lazy teachers and even worse parents

Does this quote prove your point, or just hurt my eyes? ;)

Some of you are asking for examples and such well I'll try and give you a really descriptive one.

A few days ago I was browsing another forum full of Nintendo fanboys. One of them said

"hai guys, chek out this new game, Look at the screenies, it looks great."
Now I looked at them and I gave my opinion which seemed to contradict everyone else's in the way that I said the screenshots gave the impression that the graphics were not up to scratch.

I was instantly flamed because everyone knows that it's Gameplay>Graphics.
Now I never argued the fact that gameplay ISN'T important, but I did say that the reason I commented on the graphics was because I couldn't comment on anything else? how can you judge gameplay from a screenshot?

The point is, I gave my opinion and it was shot down because I didn't uphold the general consensus of the entire population of the thread. In fact, I ended up just telling them to fuck off about it because it got to the point where it had escalated into E-fisticuffs, and I particularly didn't feel like being banned.

Now this isn't as descriptive as I could of been, but It might give you a general Idea of what I mean when I say, If your opinion isn't the same than you are wrong.

In regards to the above example, I accepted that Gameplay is an important factor but that also graphics can determine if a person wants to buy a game or not, it's not as if everyone functions the same way or thinks the same way, why is it so hard to accept that I hold a different value on things?

I suppose it is because you can say whatever you want and get away with it, and that in itself is the problem with the internet. In society you can't have a discussion that escalates into what could be compared to an internet argument. Because most civilized people will get halfway through and agree to disagree, or understand that the opinion of the other person is indeed valid to the argument or topic. What annoys me is the lack of this sort of thing, I come to the internet to discuss things that interest me, politics, the cost of fuel, global warming, consumerism, rising prices and pretty much anything that could be considered interesting. But when I discuss these things with people on the internet, intelligent responses are few and far between. Perhaps I have been looking in the wrong places?
Everywhere I look, people are either stupid in that they can't have a relevant discussion without resorting to calling my mother a slut or the person thinks that I am not educated on the subject enough and makes me look like a fool for trying. There is no middle ground.

I don't think society is to blame for the entire mess that is the internet, the internet is not supposed to be serious I guess, but in contrast, it is a public space, It allows me to access people who may have the same views (even if I get abused for it.) unlike any other place, if I was to go to a public debate or even a private one, the circumstances would be effectively different to the internet.

I think it would be safe to assume the majority of the internet is full of morons.

Pie:
I think it would be safe to assume the majority of the internet is full of morons.

I'd rather say that the internet turns the majority of its users into morons, ie. The Internet Fuckwad Theory.

- A procrastinator

Pie:
So why is it when voicing your opinion you encounter people who refuse to think about where your coming from, your point of view on the matter, the way you reason your point. Why is it that when you voice your opinion, usually if it is hypercritical, that it is instantly shut down with no reasoning at all, with the exception of YOU BEING WRONG.

Recently I have begun to notice people getting more and more agitated to my view points and opinions. Even when I structure the post in a way that gives everyone a chance to voice their own. Say I went to a forum and a topic was about chicken or ham, if the majority says chicken and I say ham, I am frowned upon for coming to the conclusion that ham is delicious.

Why is that so?

Why am I not allowed to voice an opinion that strays for the norm of society? how can an opinion be wrong?

Let's clarify something here. Are you asking why any given person gets their opinion shut down, or are you asking why you specifically get shut down?

My answer to the first is that a person gets shut down because they allow themselves to be shut down, or because they lack the knowledge or rhetorical skill to properly represent and defend their viewpoint, or both. I personally have stood in the minority in many, many highly charged discussions on this board and I do not feel I was ever shut down because I'm willing to defend my point and because I've developed a certain skill in doing so. And before I become subject to the accusation that I have some sort of popularity advantage going, please note that I got all up in people's faces in the middle of a couple big gender stereotype/feminism rows before anyone on this board really knew who the hell I was.

Now, as far as why you personally get shut down when stating an opinion, I don't really know. I'd have to go back and find a thread where you got in a tangle with someone and see what dynamic was playing out there.

I will say that learning to state an opinion so that it doesn't come out sounding like an attack or an insult is key to success. A person may give everyone a chance to state their own opinion, but it there is unintentional insult given right out of the gate, what's really happened is that the person has given everyone a chance to take offense and return insult for insult.

There's also the matter of when to state an opinion. For instance, jim_doki really likes Frank Miller. I absolutely hate Frank Miller and jim_doki knows this. In another thread, jim_doki mentioned that he thought that everyone should read a certain Frank Miller book. Again, I hate Frank Miller, but I didn't say so in response to that post, even though it is my opinion and I have a right to my opinion. Why? Because in that context, my opinion was uncalled for and would have been insulting.

Now, some people are going to come back at me with "feminists should shut up and quit whining!" or as you put it, YOU BEING WRONG, in an attempt to shut me down, because, quite frankly, that's the best they've got when it comes to discussing that issue. But if everyone is flat ignoring me and shutting me down, then I need to check whether I expressed my point in a way that actually moves the discussion forward. If everyone is shutting me down, chances are that I didn't. Alternatively, maybe I'm just hanging out and talking to the wrong folks and it's time to get outta town. If I'm getting shut down in every town, though, then the problem is me. And believe me, I was shut down everywhere for a very long time. That's why I say these things.

Kogarian:
People are idiots. They're either trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic.

According to this you're (a) idiotic, trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic, (b) not a person or (c) wrong.

mshcherbatskaya:

Pie:
So why is it when voicing your opinion you encounter people who refuse to think about where your coming from, your point of view on the matter, the way you reason your point. Why is it that when you voice your opinion, usually if it is hypercritical, that it is instantly shut down with no reasoning at all, with the exception of YOU BEING WRONG.

Recently I have begun to notice people getting more and more agitated to my view points and opinions. Even when I structure the post in a way that gives everyone a chance to voice their own. Say I went to a forum and a topic was about chicken or ham, if the majority says chicken and I say ham, I am frowned upon for coming to the conclusion that ham is delicious.

Why is that so?

Why am I not allowed to voice an opinion that strays for the norm of society? how can an opinion be wrong?

Let's clarify something here. Are you asking why any given person gets their opinion shut down, or are you asking why you specifically get shut down?

My answer to the first is that a person gets shut down because they allow themselves to be shut down, or because they lack the knowledge or rhetorical skill to properly represent and defend their viewpoint, or both. I personally have stood in the minority in many, many highly charged discussions on this board and I do not feel I was ever shut down because I'm willing to defend my point and because I've developed a certain skill in doing so. And before I become subject to the accusation that I have some sort of popularity advantage going, please note that I got all up in people's faces in the middle of a couple big gender stereotype/feminism rows before anyone on this board really knew who the hell I was.

Now, as far as why you personally get shut down when stating an opinion, I don't really know. I'd have to go back and find a thread where you got in a tangle with someone and see what dynamic was playing out there.

No.
It has nothing to do with me not being physically able to defend my veiwpoint, rather the person I am arguing my viewpoint against believes that my viewpoint is just plain wrong.
It has nothing to do with my lack of negotiating skills, but more so the lack of acceptability of the party I am engaged with, so that in itself is not a correct assumption.
You generalised it as everyone who has experienced the idiocy of people on the internet as being inherently too stupid enough to defend themselves against someone who attacks them in an unprovoked way.
To clarify it is not an instance On this board, this board is good in terms of opinions and such.

Pie:

No.
It has nothing to do with me not being physically able to defend my veiwpoint, rather the person I am arguing my viewpoint against believes that my viewpoint is just plain wrong.
It has nothing to do with my lack of negotiating skills, but more so the lack of acceptability of the party I am engaged with, so that in itself is not a correct assumption.
You generalised it as everyone who has experienced the idiocy of people on the internet as being inherently too stupid enough to defend themselves against someone who attacks them in an unprovoked way.
To clarify it is not an instance On this board, this board is good in terms of opinions and such.

yes, why does that fool on the internet fail to realize i will change my mind for no reason! He should!

the chap your arguing with is probably just like you, thats why you run into people like 'him' every day, in an argument, everyone becomes 'him', regardless of how well they spell their responses, or how intelligent they are outside of an argument with 'him'.

Also, 'him' can be a she, i hate all people regardless of sex, race or religion.

i realise that right now i sound like 'him', i don't mean to be an asshat, but the repetition of internet fights is so predictable i could write a 'fill-in-the-blanks' template for them

Pseudonym2:

Kogarian:
People are idiots. They're either trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic.

According to this you're (a) idiotic, trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic, (b) not a person or (c) wrong.

My vote is for: not a person.

Ultrajoe:

Pie:

No.
It has nothing to do with me not being physically able to defend my veiwpoint, rather the person I am arguing my viewpoint against believes that my viewpoint is just plain wrong.
It has nothing to do with my lack of negotiating skills, but more so the lack of acceptability of the party I am engaged with, so that in itself is not a correct assumption.
You generalised it as everyone who has experienced the idiocy of people on the internet as being inherently too stupid enough to defend themselves against someone who attacks them in an unprovoked way.
To clarify it is not an instance On this board, this board is good in terms of opinions and such.

yes, why does that fool on the internet fail to realize i will change my mind for no reason! He should!

the chap your arguing with is probably just like you, thats why you run into people like 'him' every day, in an argument, everyone becomes 'him', regardless of how well they spell their responses, or how intelligent they are outside of an argument with 'him'.

Also, 'him' can be a she, i hate all people regardless of sex, race or religion.

i realise that right now i sound like 'him', i don't mean to be an asshat, but the repetition of internet fights is so predictable i could write a 'fill-in-the-blanks' template for them

You should do it.
I would find it amusing :)

Pseudonym2:

Kogarian:
People are idiots. They're either trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic.

According to this you're (a) idiotic, trolling, narrow-minded, and/or xenophobic, (b) not a person or (c) wrong.

I don't get it. Why don't people get that when someone makes a sweeping statement about humanity, they know they come under it as well. I know for a fact I personally come under A or at least do sometimes, as does everyone I know of. It is something of a leap of logic to then assign this to the whole human race, but if you just open a paper it isn't so hard. I wouldn't say everyone could have such a complimentary title, I'm simply not apt to make a statement like that. But it does seem, that at some point in there life at least, most humans act like an asshat.

Pie:

No.
It has nothing to do with me not being physically able to defend my veiwpoint, rather the person I am arguing my viewpoint against believes that my viewpoint is just plain wrong.
It has nothing to do with my lack of negotiating skills, but more so the lack of acceptability of the party I am engaged with, so that in itself is not a correct assumption.
You generalised it as everyone who has experienced the idiocy of people on the internet as being inherently too stupid enough to defend themselves against someone who attacks them in an unprovoked way.
To clarify it is not an instance On this board, this board is good in terms of opinions and such.

Sorry, I didn't intend that to come across as insulting as I now realized that sounded. I guess that would be me proving my own point. I probably should have leaned more on the concept that some people really don't know how to argue, and so "UR WRONG!" is all they've got, and if the entire board (or whatever environment) is like that, then, as I said, I'm in the wrong place. Yes, the internet, and not just the internet, is full of people who genuinely don't have the ability to debate anything, whether that's lack of intelligence or lack education doesn't really matter to me. I also didn't intend to suggest that all people who get shut down in debate are stupid. Some are stupid, some have not yet learned a set of useful skills but will learn them with time and practice, and some people lack the factual knowledge they need to support their points even though they have the right ideas and a good basic grip on the topic. I'm actually inclined to believe that the second and third options is more common that most people credit.

I guess I'm agreeing with you here. Why do you get your opinion shot down and your conversation shut down, even when you put yourself forward with intelligence and style? Because you can't get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

I think I was over-interpreting the amount of "poor me!" in your initial post, perhaps because the answer to the question of why some people are stupid seems fairly obvious to me: because they are. I also think it's useful, though, to keep in mind that lacking a skill and being stupid are not the same thing. I will continue to talk to a person who lacks skill in argumentation, but I will not deal with a person who seems to me to be willfully stupid.

So, in summary, sorry for coming across as a rather arrogant twit and for suggesting in any way that you are without intelligence and skill in argument.

Pie:

Ultrajoe:

i realise that right now i sound like 'him', i don't mean to be an asshat, but the repetition of internet fights is so predictable i could write a 'fill-in-the-blanks' template for them

You should do it.
I would find it amusing :)

Stupid Argument Bingo! So what do we put in the squares for these bingo cards? Here are a few I can think of.

1337-speak
"fag"/"retard"
image-as-response
Godwin's Law
quoted-out-of-context
responding to the wrong person in the thread
Jumping into the argument on page 3 without reading pages 1 and 2

What else?

Yan-Yan:

cleverlymadeup:
i'd have to blame society and lack of good education and lazy teachers and even worse parents

Does this quote prove your point, or just hurt my eyes? ;)

yeah sorry i missed two "a"s in the sentence but other than that it's grammatically correct :)

so i'll take the latter not the former