Since the primaries have practically ended (we all know Obama will win, we all know McCain has won although not yet formally) the talk about politics has whittled down. So I will grab this opportunity to talk about politics without being spammed by Obamabots or Paulies.

During election months I always hear people calling for increased voter participation. It seems to be a universally accepted truth that higher voter participation is a goal in itself, and therefore people say things like "it doesn't matter what you vote - just vote" and stuff like that.

I want to say the excactly opposite. What you vote matters, therefore you should probably stay away from it.

This is because there exists GOOD policies and there exists BAD policies. Those policies are decided by the politicians, and those politicians respond (vaguely) to the voters wishes: They will usually do what will bring them the most voters.

So in order to institute GOOD policies we need to have voters voting for politicians who will institute those policies... And this is where the trouble starts. Since no field but religion(if even that) is so filled with lies, distortions and half-truths as politics, deciding what is a good policy and which politician will support them requires a substantial effort as well as a minimum of knowledge.

Now, people who won't vote unless practically forced to, people who won't vote unless they are repeatedly brainwashed into believeing it is something they have to do, people who aren't really into politics and who aren't really interested... They will to a larger degree than others judge based on looks, image and personal factors rather than politics. Those people are not likely to vote for the best policies.

Therefore I will encourage you all not to vote. Not that all of you are politically incompetent, but those of you who aren't will probably not heed this request anyways and those who are will maybe.

Edit: Added poll option: "I live in a country in which voting is mandatory".
And for the underages: Pretend to be 18 for this poll.

Can you add a 'can't vote, but would' option? Curse being an underage non-American who watches all the debates and such...

Ingenious. I never really looked at it that way, but I completely agree. Oddly enough I just turned 18 and now am allowed to vote. I'm glad I ran across this thread cause alls my parents can do is sit there and lecture me about how my vote is going to make a difference even if I decided against there political affiliation. This thread definitely made not voting so much more logical and easier to explain to my parents the reasons why I shouldn't vote. Thanks.

see, this argument makes sense but only on one level. Here in Australia we are required to vote by law. As a result of this by age 12 we understand the basics of how to vote, why we vote and why it's important to vote. we live in a democracy (sort of) which means the most popular wins. we have the means to place someone in power. it's a massive responsibility. i would say rather than getting people not to vote, getting people to understand the issues would be a better way to go about it. i understand what you are saying here, that you think power and ignorance are a bad combo, and you're right, but at the same time you really don't have grounds to tell the ignorant not to use their power, you can just teach them about it. does that make sense?

You see, being an Australian, as jim said, we have to vote. But, even if I was given the opportunity not to vote, I'd do it anyway, as it is my responsibility to do my part in order to ensure Australia has competent leadership. And, in Australia, it's pretty simple to vote, and the parties will explain their platform and all, so, you have quite a bit of information to decide a party to vote for.

One thing I don't like about American politics is that your presidential elections seem like popularity votes. Yes, popularity votes will play a factor, but, I was brought up believing that it was the party you vote for, not the person. If I've got the wrong impression, than please explain to me why, would you kindly.

- A procrastinator

As an Australian like what seems to be half the forum, I too have to vote as soon as I hit 18. But, given the chance, I wouldn't vote at all, because although I do care about who runs the country, none of our politicians are any good.

By that I mean the ones running for Prime Minister, I'd still vote for the premier of my state.

Yeah...

in New Zealand we dont have to vote but we have to be registered to vote

and anyway the current government has muffed up so badly that they will be knocked away by the opposition anyway
nd in my opinion if you dont vote you have no right to complain if the government turns out to be a bunch of people who are pants on head retarded.

smallharmlesskitten:
Yeah...

in New Zealand we dont have to vote but we have to be registered to vote

and anyway the current government has muffed up so badly that they will be knocked away by the opposition anyway
nd in my opinion if you dont vote you have no right to complain if the government turns out to be a bunch of people who are pants on head retarded.

Well all you really get to choose is whether to elect the guy who puts pajama pants or jeans on his head anyways...

smallharmlesskitten:

nd in my opinion if you dont vote you have no right to complain if the government turns out to be a bunch of people who are pants on head retarded.

And if your only choices are between people who fit that category?

Gavaroc:
I'd still vote for the premier of my state.

What state do you live in Gavaroc? 'Cos it can't be NSW; both Labor and Liberal suck at the moment.

- A procrastinator

Gavaroc:

smallharmlesskitten:

nd in my opinion if you dont vote you have no right to complain if the government turns out to be a bunch of people who are pants on head retarded.

And if your only choices are between people who fit that category?

What if the person you voted for got the election stolen from him? *see: 2000 election results* Me, I'm a registered Democrat, but I'm voting for McCain. Why? Because I think he can get the job done, and I respect his policies and his stances. That is my reasoning, and it should be the only necessary reasoning.

Ingenious. I never really looked at it that way, but I completely agree. Oddly enough I just turned 18 and now am allowed to vote. I'm glad I ran across this thread cause alls my parents can do is sit there and lecture me about how my vote is going to make a difference even if I decided against there political affiliation. This thread definitely made not voting so much more logical and easier to explain to my parents the reasons why I shouldn't vote. Thanks.

My pleasure.

Can you add a 'can't vote, but would' option? Curse being an underage non-American who watches all the debates and such...

Should have thought of that, but if I were to expand the poll it would be a grand total of 9 choices and that would be too much. Pretend to be 18 for the sake of this poll.

As a result of this by age 12 we understand the basics of how to vote, why we vote and why it's important to vote.

I can assure you that other countries teach this in school as well.

That said this topic is immensely complex, and you only know an extremely shallow part of it at age 12. Not that I'm the master myself, but I know enough to know how little I know.

but at the same time you really don't have grounds to tell the ignorant not to use their power, you can just teach them about it. does that make sense?

In order to make an informed decision I daresay you'll need to read half an hour serious news a day, and that is the absolute total minimum. It is not easy to just *teach* this to a population which does not wish to know about it. Mind you, there is nothing wrong in not wanting to be a part of the political system - quite to the contrary I think it is noble to keep to oneself and not bother others. But this rather large part of the population whom are political illiterates should not be encouraged to vote. This forum post is a small step in my personal vendetta against the encouragement of political illiterates.

You see, being an Australian, as jim said, we have to vote.

Im curious... How is this practiced? How does one ensure that you vote while not sacrificing a secret ballot?

And, in Australia, it's pretty simple to vote, and the parties will explain their platform and all, so, you have quite a bit of information to decide a party to vote for.

I'm sorry, but this is woefully inadequate information. It is like buying a used car based on what the car salesman says about it.

Im curious... How is this practiced? How does one ensure that you vote while not sacrificing a secret ballot?

It's ingeniously simple really, what we do is go to our local voting office, (schools mostely) where they have our names in a big book. they tick our names off and we grab the ballot papers from them. we fill in the forms and drop them off. basically all it does is show that you were there

In order to make an informed decision I daresay you'll need to read half an hour serious news a day, and that is the absolute total minimum. It is not easy to just *teach* this to a population which does not wish to know about it. Mind you, there is nothing wrong in not wanting to be a part of the political system - quite to the contrary I think it is noble to keep to oneself and not bother others. But this rather large part of the population whom are political illiterates should not be encouraged to vote. This forum post is a small step in my personal vendetta against the encouragement of political illiterates.

there's a lot of things wrong with not having a say. you are the president's boss. he is accountable to YOU and you alone. you are the people. You have to make the call to decide whether he's worthy or not. YES it's hard to make that choice, YES there's a lot of information out there that requires you to actually think and make a decision based on the issues, but there's a lot of hard work that comes from being the boss.

in the end not voting is just irresponsible. If you don't vote you have no say about what the president does/doesn't do. if you don't vote everyone has the right to hit you when you say "but he's doing it wrong"

H0ncho:
I'm sorry, but this is woefully inadequate information. It is like buying a used car based on what the car salesman says about it.

Uh, I think I've mucked up what I wanted to say. I mean, it's accessible, and that's why compulsory voting works in Australia. If you want to know the basics, watch TV. If you want to know more, than most of the information can be found on the official websites, the debates, and a range of other sources. Not saying this isn't in the US, but, I find it's quite easy to find out what each party stands for, and the details, if you want, In Australia, so compulsory voting isn't a problem here.

- A procrastinator

Edit: I agree with what jim has said above me, concerning not voting.

Id vote for the dude who put his pyjamas on his head, he sounds like hes more fun

stompy:

What state do you live in Gavaroc? 'Cos it can't be NSW; both Labor and Liberal suck at the moment.

- A procrastinator

I live in Victoria.

I'm not voting because I don't know anything. I don't know much about politics at all and even if I did, I would have to do a tremendous amount of research to not only see who I most agree with, but who's most likely to deliver the most out of what they promised. If I understood politics and history more, then I'd be more than happy to vote.

smallharmlesskitten:
in my opinion if you don't vote you have no right to complain if the government turns out to be a bunch of people who are pants on head retarded.

I see what you're saying but I look at it a bit differently. If you vote for someone incompetent, then you have no right to complain about him.

If you don't know anything about politics and refrain from voting, then you prevented the system from being poisoned with your ignorance.

those are some of my thoughts.

In Australia you get fined if you don't vote but you can do a Protest vote when you get your name ticked off and put the ballot paper straight in the box with out marking it. If enough people do that then they have to rehold the election with new candidates.

Also you don't even need ID to get a ballot paper you just point to your name on the list you could vote as anyone.

So, our votes matter, but don't vote? Even if we truly understand the politics? WTF? Not voting if we know what's going on is like saying let the meteor hit the earth when even picking up a quarter will save the world.

I'm voting. And I'm voting McCain. No racial offense, but Obama turns his back to our flag, will not say the pledge of alliegence, and will not say he loves America. McCain is a no-nonsense trapped in the old ways kind of guy from what I've seen. Ontop of that, he actually shows his support for America. So which would you rather have? A leader who does not support his people? Or an old fasioned man?

And yet you want me to not vote? Because there is a 1:100,000,000,000 chance that my vote will actually make a difference? You know what, if my vote is the winning vote for McCain, that makes a huge difference, and I'm more than willing to take that chance.....Clown.

Here's the problem, and as an American, I'm woefully aware of it. I don't believe that a single candidate in the 2008 race has intentions of implementing what the TC refers to as "GOOD policies". I disagree with Hillary and Barack on too many things, and McCain has said some stuff that's made me uneasy.

If policy isn't an issue and it's just attractiveness, that's crap too. McCain is going to get tired (he's too old for the job) and start losing steam, and Hillary is a robot (look into her eyes!). From the charisma standpoint, this leaves Obama, who drives crowds wild, but has the least appealing policies. You've heard this before; no political experience, blah blah blah.

Experience isn't the issue here; he really doesn't know what to do. Just listen to him. Better yet, read Audacity of Hope, his book. He's JFK all over again. He makes glittering generalizations that don't really say anything, but get crowds all riled up. Of course, his platform is essentially the same as Hillary's (the apples don't fall far from the Democratic tree), he just plans to act on the issues in a way that strays a tad from her methods.

I truly believe McCain isn't a bad guy, but I just don't think he's what America needs right now. His aggressive stance on the Iraq war really isn't what voters are looking for right now, and there are some issues he just doesn't care about. He's too focused on Iraq, and this race really is going to come down to economics, since we're in a recession. Some economists say that the recession will be over by the end of the year, but if that IS the case, then everyone's focus is going to go back to Iraq, and they'll think "Damn, we voted for a guy who'll keep us there his entire term without trying to get away."

So I don't really consider the candidates to have "GOOD policies," and the charisma just isn't there for me. Seeing nothing attractive in the political arena, I will not participate in it this year. Or maybe I'll vote for the U.S. Taxpayers' Party or the Socialist Party or something. That'll show 'em.

Asymptote Angel:
So I don't really consider the candidates to have "GOOD policies," and the charisma just isn't there for me. Seeing nothing attractive in the political arena, I will not participate in it this year. Or maybe I'll vote for the U.S. Taxpayers' Party or the Socialist Party or something. That'll show 'em.

Yeah, I've generally voted Libertarian since Reagan, on the grounds that I'm building the Libertarian Party (and whichever idiot ends up winning, at least I can say I didn't vote for him.) But this year Libertarian appears to be Bob Barr, and I prefer my idiots to at least have a sense of humor. So I think this year I'll just write in Satan - why settle for the lesser evil? And I don't think the candidates' policies have much bearing on an election, since neither Hillary nor McCain has stated policies in line with their voting records, and as far as I can tell Obama has no stated policies at all. (Q: What do you stand for, Senator Obama? A: I stand for change! Q: What kind of change? A: The kind of change we can believe in. Q: Well, but what specifically would you change? A: Uh... We are happy warriors for change! I suppose this is a new variation of the standard political platform, that the candidate is for whatever you're for except a whole lot more of it and somebody else should pay for it.)

I should in fairness point out that the USA isn't actually in a recession, which is defined as two successive quarters of negative growth. We haven't had any quarters of negative growth in recent years, and no recession since last quarter of 2000/first quarter of 2001.

werepossum:
But this year Libertarian appears to be Bob Barr, and I prefer my idiots to at least have a sense of humor. So I think this year I'll just write in Satan - why settle for the lesser evil?

Has my avatar taught you nothing, werepossum? You can settle for nothing lesser than the Great Cthulhu.

stompy:
You see, being an Australian, as jim said, we have to vote. But, even if I was given the opportunity not to vote, I'd do it anyway, as it is my responsibility to do my part in order to ensure Australia has competent leadership. And, in Australia, it's pretty simple to vote, and the parties will explain their platform and all, so, you have quite a bit of information to decide a party to vote for.

One thing I don't like about American politics is that your presidential elections seem like popularity votes. Yes, popularity votes will play a factor, but, I was brought up believing that it was the party you vote for, not the person. If I've got the wrong impression, than please explain to me why, would you kindly.

- A procrastinator

That's basically right, but it's the major difference between a prime minister, and a President. I don't know the ins and outs of the Australian system, sad to say, but there's a good chance that you *are* voting for the party. The unfortunate truth about American politics is that ideology often takes a back seat to personality. The number of Democrats who would cut off their nose to spite their face (insofar as they would refuse to vote if their person didn't win) is absolutely staggering. They'd rather see someone who completely disagrees with them in office, than swallow their pride, and vote for the person closest to their interests.

As Bill Clinton put it: "Democrats want to fall in love, Republicans fall in line"

Saskwach:

werepossum:
But this year Libertarian appears to be Bob Barr, and I prefer my idiots to at least have a sense of humor. So I think this year I'll just write in Satan - why settle for the lesser evil?

Has my avatar taught you nothing, werepossum? You can settle for nothing lesser than the Great Cthulhu.

Like I can spell that in a voting booth!

I vote if only so I have the right to complain, either that everything would be less fucked if my guy had won, or that man, my candidate turned out to be a lying, incompetant douchebag (I hear this from a few Republicans who are now all *facepalm* over having supported the Bush administration, and I know some lefties who did the same over Clinton), or that my candidate is a shining paragon who is being hamstrung by the evil opposition in Congress. However it plays out, if I didn't value my opinion enough to express it in the ballot box, I don't get to declare it to be solid gold after the election is done.

I'm an Australian, and my birthday is early December. Our last Federal Election took place roughly a week before my 18th birthday. I would have loved to vote. I followed the debates, watched the press club addresses, noted the polls, and yet, my opinion was totally invalid because of my age. In fact, a mate of mine who's birthday is in September (we're both born the same year) literally didn't vote. He protested the similarity of the parties that we had to vote for, and took the fine intentionally. His opinion was as well formed as mine, and while I disagree with his decision, his was more valid than mine according to the Government. This... annoys me. But it's not quite the point of this thread.

There's an effect of people not voting that noone's yet discussed here, I think. I honestly don't know how it applies to the apparently murky system of politics that is American Democracy, but one thing that'll happen if most people don't vote is that loud minorities begin to have political influence, which can be a serious problem. By "loud minorities", I mean groups of people with nonstandard ideals (for example, pro-firearms in a country with restricted access to firearms, or something like that), but a faithful, if small, following that plans to vote. It can allow parties with uncommon policies to gain power. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be. I don't know how serious this effect would be, but I always percieved it as a major reason why voting is compulsory in Australia when I wondered about it. If everyone votes, then common standards will be maintained by the elected Government. That's what I always thought, anyway.

That said, the two leading parties in Australia are quite similar. Relative to what I can tell about the Democrats and Republicans, that is. So perhaps this wouldn't work in the USA. I dunno.

Just some thoughts.

Oh, and werepossum,

werepossum:
Like I can spell [Cthulhu] in a voting booth!

It's significantly harder to say that word than it is to spell it.

I live in a city called Wollongong and there is an interesting story behind this.

In Australia when you vote for the PM you have many different political parties to choose from. The two main political parties are Liberal and Labour. There are other parties such as The Greens, The Democrats and One nation (boo hiss). Well anyway you choose who will lead the country by choosing what Party you like, the leader of the winning party becomes the PM. But in a Federal Election you don't vote for what Party will rule the country you vote for what party rules your local area.

Anyway as I was saying I live in Wollongong and the local council (A Labor council) was found to be corrupt. Really corrupt! A building planner was sleeping with members of the council to get building plans permitted for crying out loud. It was a steaming hot bed of corruption. Well the council members have all been fired and I believe that a new council has been placed as representatives.

The annoying thing is that people do not care about what leader and what party will be best for their local area, instead they look at elections as popularity contests (Kevin 07 t-shirts anyone). Well labour is the most popular Party at the moment (and will stay this way) until the next election. Well people are going to reelect the corrupt council because labour is seen (I wish I was joking) as the good guys. Hence the corrupt council is seen as the good guys.

This is why I don't hold much faith in the voting system. Far too easily corrupted by flashy ads and scare tactics.

Saskwach:

werepossum:
But this year Libertarian appears to be Bob Barr, and I prefer my idiots to at least have a sense of humor. So I think this year I'll just write in Satan - why settle for the lesser evil?

Has my avatar taught you nothing, werepossum? You can settle for nothing lesser than the Great Cthulhu.

Nah, Steve McQueen has a better tax benifits. Vote 1 Steve McQueen!

Anyways, I'm an Aussie and we have to vote. Also I really don't give two stuffs about the American election. Why is it being so advertised to the world? Why not the Indonesian election?