Right then, I've noticed that lot's of people here are saying "Wow, I should have paid more attention in History" or "We didn't go over that stuff". Well, here's the savior of the internet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Teacher, educate thyself.

(An anti-wikipedia rant can happen in another forum. I think it's fine for discussions like this, because the moment something inaccurate or politically skewed comes up on such a historically significant topic, it is corrected.)

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Khell_Sennet:

Canada is NOT irrelevant internationally. We are beloved by most countries, friendly or at least neutral with the rest.

I didn't say people didn't like Canada; just that Canada...doesn't really figure into many geopolitical issues. Sure you have "political and economic ties with China and Mexico, the friendship of Cuba, and the backing of our British brethren" but none of them are really asking you to do much. Substitute 'Ireland' for 'Cuba' and all of that is true of the U.S. No one is asking Canada to do anything about the issues surrounding Israel, what might happen in the Balkans, managing Russia as it becomes a totalitarian state again...

It's easy to have good relations with China when you don't have any responsibility for what happens to Taiwan. It's...also not something to be proud of, having Cuba as a friend.

I mean, can you imagine *any* situation where people would look to Canada to take *any* action whatsoever on the world political stage? For as good as your friendship is with Cuba, if the U.S. invaded, would anyone look to Canada to take any serious action? Would you as a Canadian feel that if it came down to war, war it is to keep Cuba sovereign? Now think of the U.S.: we've got that kind of relationship with Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, even this Balkans/Kosovo thing puts us right back in the quagmire that led to WWI, with Russia looking on the Serbs as 'little Slavs' that they have to back.

Speaking of Russia, any chance of Canada being in the vanguard of response to Russia cracking down on its former Republics? What response do you think Canada would feel compelled to undertake if Russia backed a breakaway state in Georgia as a counter-move to the West backing Kosovo? How much was Canada involved with the issue of the Ukraine and the possible poisoning of Yushchenko?

Dude, you guys are basically living as close as one can get in the real world to The Shire--celebrate that kind of luck! The only issue you really have with any other country is if Russia starts going wacky over that whole Arctic thing, and even there your interests coincide with the U.S. in keeping Russia from going wacko.

Where Canada differs from the US is that we go into other nations with our arms wide open, while the US enters most nations with their arms set to full-auto. One thing I have said about Canada for years is that no country dares to fuck with us because most every other nation would be at their doorstep with nukes and spiked dildos before the second shot could be fired.

And one of those places is the U.S. See how tricky it gets when people expect you to show up with "nukes and spiked dildos"? Aren't "nukes and spiked dildos" an example of "arms set to full-auto"?

The last "Terrorist" act committed against Canada was from a radical group of Quebec'ers. That aside, I can't remember a single terrorist attack in my lifetime. Oh I DO remember American pilots bombing the shit out of Canadian troops, an "Accident" it was called...

Americans also killed Pat Tillman. He played football. Americans love football. Don't read anything into that which isn't there..

Lastly, as to being the US's closest ally... It's sad but true, we ARE the closest ally the US has, but the US is not the closest ally CANADA has. Between the NAFTA butt-fuckery, the contention over our ownership of the arctic pass, and this new fishing fiasco... Our relations are going sour.

No, they're really not. Relations going sour is when Russia puts the missile launchers and tanks back in their May parade as a big 'screw you' to NATO after Putin figured out a loophole that allows him to stay in control of Russia for life. Canadian private citizens getting their feathers all ruffled and writing editorials and swamping forums on the internet while continuing to maintain the longest undefended border in human history is not 'relations going sour'.

I mean, I guess to a *Canadian* a strongly-worded, grammatically perfect opinion piece is 'relations going sour'; for an *American*, if they're not hanging a burning effigy of Uncle Sam in the streets of their capital, things are looking good!

In fact, this is exactly what I'm talking about: Canadians...blow everything out of proportion, whether their place in the geopolitical landscape or the War of 1812. I mean really, "Between the NAFTA butt-fuckery, the contention over our ownership of the arctic pass, and this new fishing fiasco..."? You think those are *real* problems that will cause a relationship to 'sour'? We've got N. Korea landing missiles in the Sea of Japan and you think the world turns on a *fishing* dispute?

Really dude--a *fishing* dispute? We had New York dumping medical waste into the ocean that was washing up on New Jersey beaches--our own *states* get into bigger tiffs.

Seriously--Canadians are basically Hobbits (I still have no idea how a bar with only twenty stools and ten tables can afford to have eight taps...and everyone's drinking Canadian from a bottle anyway). Rather than act like that isn't true, enjoy it, rather than getting all Yukio Mishima over it.

Well the thing about Canadians is that because of our little feelings of inadequacy (since we have such a small population with the second largest land mass) we are mostly kinda nuts. Scary but true.

Secondly we are heavily involved in much of the world stage since we make up most of nato's armed forces. We were involved in the whole bosnian, kosovo thing as well as way back in Greece to stop a big ass war there.

Hey I am not ripping the US I lived there for 5 years but ya can't say Canada is full of Hobbits I mean that's like saying the US is full of Fat lazy whiny pieces of crap and I would never say that.

Thirdly we are one of the richest countries in the world with regards to natural resources as well and grown food supplies. Why does no one screw with us?

Well It would hurt everyone else, we are the big friendly guy in the room that smiles and keeps quiet but don't piss him off or he'll smack ya. I mean even though no one wants to admit it the US gets 20% of their fuel from Canada and 30% of their Natural gas comes from us as well. Why ruin that?

Just be nice and friendly and we can all get along.

If it makes anyone feel better, we press-ganged most people. Including our own chaps. So we weren't just picking on America!

...we were just generally being bastards. Well, what do you expect? We had "empire" in our name. That makes anyone the bad guys.

Ok, taking this in segments...

First and most importantly, War Monger of Yabucua has definitely shown his colors as a troll and could someone please put him back under his bridge. Nobody else is taking this to a personal level and as close to a flamewar this is, everyone else IS keeping it fairly damned civilized or tongue-and-cheek.

About my ripping on America... I do it against three groups of people. The politicians and government for sure, most of my hatred flows their way. Strongly patriotic Americans get some of my bile, and the third group are the American Corporations. I don't hold a grudge against Joe Average American unless he's part of the system, corporate whore, or one of those flag-waving "America is better than the world" zealots.

Re: NAFTA. This is the single largest fuckover Canada has ever endured. It really boiled down to the US declaring itself exempt from X Y and Z any time it held the short straw, and rigorous enforcement of the rules of the agreement when it worked in their favor. NAFTA needs to be abolished and remade in a fair, equitable manner. Until this happens I fully support cutting any and all trade with the USA.

Cheeze_Pavilion...
Ok. Canadians do not have an inferiority complex but we do have to at times point out we ARE Canadian so we don't get mistaken for Americans. This is very common when vacationing, unless we point out that we're Canadians, foreigners assume we are American and thus treat us poorly.

As to us figuring into geopolitical issues. We have our hands in most everything, but when it comes to martial matters we act through the UN rather than send our own troops directly (unlike a certain nation thinking it's the world police).

As to our relations "going sour". We aren't going to protest in the street with burning effigies of Uncle Sam, we are more constructive than that. We're going to stop selling our surplus electricity from Alta/BC and let the northern USA deal with their power shortages. Hell, you guys haven't even been paying us as per the agreement, if I were in charge the power would have been cut LONG ago. With the lumber market as bad as it is now, we'll probably cut off that supply too. China and Japan already make better trade partners for lumber, cutting off dealings with the US market will only improve our standings there. It's like the beef problem, we don't sell Canadian beef to the US anymore (well, less than 2% of what we used to), and we survived and indeed are better for it.

Is it really any surprise that a War of 1812 discussion turned into a Canada vs US silliness?

We have family, friends, and fellow fun gamers in the US - give it a rest will ya?

But as far as US policy makers go, I'm pretty sure there are US citizens that think their Prez stinks to high heavens, and I'm all for supporting those US citizens who are true patriots as set out by the example of their founding fathers ... seriously, Clinton got impeached for promiscuity, why they hell hasn't Bush (and Company) been handed his ass yet with far more serious impeachments?

When average Joe US citizen deals with average Joe Canadian citizen, I'm willing to be we get along just fine; heck, back to War of 1812, they had militia who refused to invade and even some of them still traded with the British and former French colonies. But what the heck do I care anyways really about the past of some eastern provinces? Did War of 1812 have anything to do with the western or northern parts of North America, what is now California, Oregon, Washington, BC, Alaska, Yukon and so forth? Those are the parts I care about to be honest, I could do with out Ottawa and Washington, and its Monarchs and Presidents, because they seem to care so little for how their policies screw with our lives.

I'm with the poster who said we are like Hobbits, I rather like that, lets get drunk and make smoke rings already, I'll be happy knowing that we have Rangers and Wizards looking out for us, and if anyone does come a calling, they'll find Hobbits are far more feisty than they bargained for. Though, if anyone in this big wide world are like Hobbits, it seems like some New Zealanders have that even more down pat than us. Screw it, who wants to rule or police the world anyways? So much hassle, having to send your people off to die all the time.

Sheppard:

Oh and don't go flaming about how The US is the best or anything. This is not a rip at any individual country but I mean c'mon ya win some and ya lose some.

Mention that on youtube and you are likely to be flamed so hard that even a Half-Life grade suit won't save your arse. Luckily this is the Escapist :)

CanadianWolverine:

I'm with the poster who said we are like Hobbits, I rather like that, lets get drunk and make smoke rings already, I'll be happy knowing that we have Rangers and Wizards looking out for us, and if anyone does come a calling, they'll find Hobbits are far more feisty than they bargained for. Though, if anyone in this big wide world are like Hobbits, it seems like some New Zealanders have that even more down pat than us. Screw it, who wants to rule or police the world anyways? So much hassle, having to send your people off to die all the time.

you do realize that canada has one of the best trained armies and was also one of the best performing armies in both ww1 and ww2 right?

there were several places that NO ONE could take or hold, well that is until the canadians came around.

yes up in canada we're a bunch of laid back party hardy beer drinkers but you mess with us or our army and you'll be getting your teeth shoved back down your throat. i mean come on we got a unit called the princess pat's light infantry, the first words i hear when i mention that unit is "those guys are crazy"

yes we don't police the world, we also don't pick sides when we enter into a conflict zone to peace keep. we go in and stop both sides

Wow, this thread is proving more popular than I thought. I didn't realize that this many gamers cared as much about history as I do(a tear coming to my eye).

My main problem with this thread is all the people throwing historical inaccuracies about. First off, Canada as a country didn't even exist in 1812, much less play a direct role in the war. As a territory it did, but only by proximity. Secondly, the war ended in a stalemate, a classic status quo ante bellum, meaning nothing changed after the war. Just clearing that up.

Edit: Also, the White House was not completely burned down. A better term is "gutted by fire", as the exterior was made of stone and therefore could not burn.

thebobmaster:
My main problem with this thread is all the people throwing historical inaccuracies about. First off, Canada as a country didn't even exist in 1812, much less play a direct role in the war.

Yes. When I said Canada, I meant the colony of Canada, not the country.

Sheppard:

thebobmaster:
My main problem with this thread is all the people throwing historical inaccuracies about. First off, Canada as a country didn't even exist in 1812, much less play a direct role in the war.

Yes. When I said Canada, I meant the colony of Canada, not the country.

You weren't the only one saying it. In any event, i meant to try to clarify a few things.

MrHappy255:

Well the thing about Canadians is that because of our little feelings of inadequacy (since we have such a small population with the second largest land mass) we are mostly kinda nuts. Scary but true.

Secondly we are heavily involved in much of the world stage since we make up most of nato's armed forces. We were involved in the whole bosnian, kosovo thing as well as way back in Greece to stop a big ass war there.

Hey I am not ripping the US I lived there for 5 years but ya can't say Canada is full of Hobbits I mean that's like saying the US is full of Fat lazy whiny pieces of crap and I would never say that.

Thirdly we are one of the richest countries in the world with regards to natural resources as well and grown food supplies. Why does no one screw with us?

Well It would hurt everyone else, we are the big friendly guy in the room that smiles and keeps quiet but don't piss him off or he'll smack ya. I mean even though no one wants to admit it the US gets 20% of their fuel from Canada and 30% of their Natural gas comes from us as well. Why ruin that?

Just be nice and friendly and we can all get along.

It's not that Canada isn't *involved* in the world stage, it's that Canada isn't embroiled in any major issue in a way that Canada couldn't get out if it didn't want to.

Yeah Canada is involved in NATO operations...but, it all reminds me of when Bush went "you forgot about Poland."

Also, calling Canadians Hobbits is sooooooo not the same as calling anyone "Fat lazy whiny pieces of crap." Hobbits are liked by everyone, enjoy beer, are well-educated, have a peaceful civil society...like I said, they're basically Canadians.

thebobmaster:
My main problem with this thread is all the people throwing historical inaccuracies about. First off, Canada as a country didn't even exist in 1812, much less play a direct role in the war. As a territory it did, but only by proximity. Secondly, the war ended in a stalemate, a classic status quo ante bellum, meaning nothing changed after the war. Just clearing that up.

Yeah, but it is the war that basically created the idea of Canada, so, even if it wasn't a *country* when the War of 1812 started, it was a *people* by the time it ended. So we really can't say that it was a "classic status quo ante bellum"; sure there were no huge territorial changes and no one became a vassal of anyone, but it *did* catalyze the people inhabiting the region that is today Canada to start thinking of themselves as Canadians. It was the war that got the people of, say, Windsor thinking they had more in common with the people of Montreal than they did with the people of Detroit, and that's a big change.

I mean, they call the War of 1813 the War of German Liberation even though there was no political entity called Germany, because it got the *peoples* that identified as Germans to start thinking along the lines of nationalism. Same thing with Canadians and the War of 1812.

Khell_Sennet:

Re: NAFTA. This is the single largest fuckover Canada has ever endured.

My point *exactly*. If the largest fuckover you have ever endured is a Free Trade Agreement not working out, you have very little in common with the rest of the world where the 'fuckovers' have to do with shit getting blown up.

Ok. Canadians do not have an inferiority complex but we do have to at times point out we ARE Canadian so we don't get mistaken for Americans. This is very common when vacationing, unless we point out that we're Canadians, foreigners assume we are American and thus treat us poorly.

I know I know. Just say 'Etobicoke' three times and it'll all be okay!

As to us figuring into geopolitical issues. We have our hands in most everything, but when it comes to martial matters we act through the UN rather than send our own troops directly (unlike a certain nation thinking it's the world police).

Um, you're talking about *one war* here, dude. A war Britain (and Poland--can't forget about Poland) *also* went into, so, why all the love for your "British brethren" and none for America? Why the double standard?

As to our relations "going sour". We aren't going to protest in the street with burning effigies of Uncle Sam, we are more constructive than that. We're going to stop selling our surplus electricity from Alta/BC and let the northern USA deal with their power shortages.

Like I said: that may be "going sour" to a Canadian, but to a country that has to plan for Russia shutting off the flow of energy supplies to Europe as a strategic move against the U.S., "surplus electricity from Alta/BC" is some small potatoes. Like I said: Canadians blow things out of proportion--this is a perfect example. You're trying to compare the issue of the Cold War returning to the issue of people in the northern USA having to shut the AC off.

CanadianWolverine:
I'm with the poster who said we are like Hobbits, I rather like that, lets get drunk and make smoke rings already, I'll be happy knowing that we have Rangers and Wizards looking out for us, and if anyone does come a calling, they'll find Hobbits are far more feisty than they bargained for.

Seriously! You guys had a Prime Minister that joked around about smoking WEED after it was reduced to simply a fineable offense: *that* is the kind of thing Canadians should be giving American a hard time about.

Oh the Joys of Canada-USA debating.

cleverlymadeup:
you do realize that canada has one of the best trained armies and was also one of the best performing armies in both ww1 and ww2 right?

there were several places that NO ONE could take or hold, well that is until the canadians came around.

yes up in canada we're a bunch of laid back party hardy beer drinkers but you mess with us or our army and you'll be getting your teeth shoved back down your throat. i mean come on we got a unit called the princess pat's light infantry, the first words i hear when i mention that unit is "those guys are crazy"

yes we don't police the world, we also don't pick sides when we enter into a conflict zone to peace keep. we go in and stop both sides

Canada did indeed have an excellent military in WW2, although I'd say "one of the best performing" is true only in that there were only a few Allied armies of significant size and impact. I know the Germans were highly impressed with them; several German accounts I've read refer to those "tall Canadians". But remember that Canadians used American tanks and American trucks and rode in American or British ships. (The exception being the early years; after screwing the pooch at Dieppe, Canada veered away from British equipment.) The Canadian Army fought well; it didn't fight alone, but fought as part of the British forces.

The Canadian Army was highly respected in WW1 as well, as was the Australian Army, as was the US Army. Mostly it was due to all three nations entering late, when soldiers of the original combatants had been fighting for years.

Today Canada has a well-trained army, true - but it's tiny. Cut-backs in Canadian armed forces have reduced its role from guaranteeing Canadian freedom to low-intensity and peace-keeping missions, and even then how many NATO combat missions has Canada carried out within the last decade without US or British assistance? Canada isn't even rated second among New World nations - it's third, behind Brazil. Part of the reason Canada has been able to so draw down its armed forces has been its good relations with other nations - but a huge part is knowing that the USA is just south and will run to their aid if threatened. Canada has, what, roughly one division of land forces?

So don't get too cocky. Canada walks softly, but the USA carries the big stick for you.

CanadianWolverine - Clinton was impeached for perjury and suborning perjury, both felonies. He was ultimately acquitted because while the US constitution provides for impeachment for "high crimes and misdemeanors", conviction and punishment for impeachment remain political decisions, and in the courts he copped a plea. Bush has to date not committed any "high crimes and misdemeanors". (Though what that has to do with the War of 1812, I've no clue.)

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Seriously! You guys had a Prime Minister that joked around about smoking WEED after it was reduced to simply a fineable offense: *that* is the kind of thing Canadians should be giving American a hard time about.

actually no we were going to do that but the american government said they would hassle all canadians going across the border because pot use would be "rampant" and that terrorists grew and sold pot so that makes it evil

well after the rampant part i kinda made it up but they us gov did whine and complain about us wanting to decriminalize pot, i do believe it's still legal to carry up to an ounce on your person because there's no laws on the books because of the americans complaining about decriminalizing it

decriminalizing means you would get a fine instead of jail time for small amounts of pot, up to an ounce i do believe. funnily enough this has support in the states from prison guards

werepossum:

The Canadian Army was highly respected in WW1 as well, as was the Australian Army, as was the US Army. Mostly it was due to all three nations entering late, when soldiers of the original combatants had been fighting for years.

ummm no canada and austrailia entered ww1 at the same time, both were asked by great britain to join in and by asked i mean they were told you're fighting. in ww2 canada was the first country to declare war on germany based on time zone, and austrailia entered right at the beginning too. so i'm not sure where you got that idea about those 2 countries entering late into the war

the americans in both cases stayed "neutral" until provoked too much, and by neutral i mean supplying weapons and guns to which ever side they wanted to win, ie the allies, they were far from neutral and cried when they got attacked for supplying the allies by german and japanese forces.

cleverlymadeup:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Seriously! You guys had a Prime Minister that joked around about smoking WEED after it was reduced to simply a fineable offense: *that* is the kind of thing Canadians should be giving American a hard time about.

actually no we were going to do that but the american government said they would hassle all canadians going across the border because pot use would be "rampant" and that terrorists grew and sold pot so that makes it evil

Yeah, I know--it's a shame that didn't get passed. Actually, it's too bad how Canada has turned slightly more conservative all-around recently.

werepossum:

CanadianWolverine - Clinton was impeached for perjury and suborning perjury, both felonies. He was ultimately acquitted because while the US constitution provides for impeachment for "high crimes and misdemeanors", conviction and punishment for impeachment remain political decisions, and in the courts he copped a plea. Bush has to date not committed any "high crimes and misdemeanors". (Though what that has to do with the War of 1812, I've no clue.)

Thing is we'll never know what Bush has or has not done because everyone that could implicate him knows he'll sign a pardon/commutation for them as long as they keep their mouth shut. The Republicans got Clinton because they made Monica feel like they were going to put her and her parents in jail. The Bush people know he has no respect whatsoever for the Constitution and has no issue with using a Presidential power meant as "a mitigation of the rigor of the law" as imposed by the Judiciary into a weapon to be used against Congress to defend himself.

Ah, Americans and the second world war.... firstly, you have us believe that you did all the work..... then we point out that that honour goes to mother russia.

The you try and make us believe that the war was fought with all your kit- then we point out-

The fact the 'enormous sacrifice' on Omaha beach, horrific as it was, was mainly the fault of your navy.

The churchill (a tank which saved a lot of infantrymen in Normandy)

The Cromwell (a better tank by far than the Sherman)

The fact you never built an effective- anti Panther/Tiger tank destroyer until the M26 in 1945.

The fact the A34 Comet was a better tank than the Pershing.

The fact the P51 Mustang was an aircraft built to RAF specification in America- translation- not an American aircraft.

The fact you never bothered to armour the flight decks of your carriers, thus causing massive casualties amongst your men.

The fact you never created a light machine gun.

The fact that your army went gallivanting around the picturesque, lightly defended southern part of France and Germany (read- where there was and is nothing of significant value) and seemed to believe that the fighting was that easy everywhere and complained because the Commonwealth and some of your own divisions under Montgmery (who had his flaws, yes, but at least he didn't want to fight a war with the Red mother-fucking Army!) were basically trying to make headway through several tons of lead per ten yards.

And to all those who are offended, I apologise. To all those who think I am incorrect- post in a rational, measured response and I will respond in kind. Flame me and I will return the favour, with interest.

Fondant:

The fact that your army went gallivanting around the picturesque, lightly defended southern part of France and Germany (read- where there was and is nothing of significant value) and seemed to believe that the fighting was that easy everywhere

I did not know Iwo Jima was an island off of the south coast of France, or that it was either 'picturesque' or 'lightly defended'.

See, this is the problem with the whole 'one-upsmanship' with history--there's almost no blanket statement anyone can make that won't run into a solid counter-example.

Not to mention, it leaves you open to this sort of thing:

The fact you never created a light machine gun.

We were too busy CREATING THE ATOM BOMB!!! NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL 'KIT'!!!

Sorry--just had to do it. See how silly it all is?

Fondant:
Ah, Americans and the second world war.... firstly, you have us believe that you did all the work..... then we point out that that honour goes to mother russia.

The you try and make us believe that the war was fought with all your kit- then we point out-

The fact the 'enormous sacrifice' on Omaha beach, horrific as it was, was mainly the fault of your navy.

The churchill (a tank which saved a lot of infantrymen in Normandy)

The Cromwell (a better tank by far than the Sherman)

The fact you never built an effective- anti Panther/Tiger tank destroyer until the M26 in 1945.

The fact the A34 Comet was a better tank than the Pershing.

The fact the P51 Mustang was an aircraft built to RAF specification in America- translation- not an American aircraft.

The fact you never bothered to armour the flight decks of your carriers, thus causing massive casualties amongst your men.

The fact you never created a light machine gun.

The fact that your army went gallivanting around the picturesque, lightly defended southern part of France and Germany (read- where there was and is nothing of significant value) and seemed to believe that the fighting was that easy everywhere and complained because the Commonwealth and some of your own divisions under Montgmery (who had his flaws, yes, but at least he didn't want to fight a war with the Red mother-fucking Army!) were basically trying to make headway through several tons of lead per ten yards.

And to all those who are offended, I apologise. To all those who think I am incorrect- post in a rational, measured response and I will respond in kind. Flame me and I will return the favour, with interest.

Don't forget the fact that we (as in the English) had to suffer through nightly bombing raids and hold off the Nazis BY OURSELVES for several months before Hitler got greedy/stupid and invaded Russia. Yes, the Americans sent us weapons and ammo as aid (much of it from WW1 mind you), but troops would have been nice too. Yes, Japan attacked them (although it was not the mainland and Hawaii wasn't even a state then) and it was a terrible loss of life. But the U.S. mainland was never threatened directly and the war was never brought home to the States like it was to us on a regular basis.

Evil Lawyer:

Don't forget the fact that we (as in the English) had to suffer through nightly bombing raids and hold off the Nazis BY OURSELVES for several months before Hitler got greedy/stupid and invaded Russia. Yes, the Americans sent us weapons and ammo as aid (much of it from WW1 mind you), but troops would have been nice too.

Actually America did--there were a lot of Americans that got themselves into the RAF and RCAF: they were called