Khell_Sennet:

werepossum:
The worst ADA ruling is allowing alcoholism as a disability, allowing alcoholics to collect disability checks. They can even designate a bar as a caretaker and have their checks sent directly to the bar. How stupid is that?

Its things like that above which make me glad to be a Canadian... Unless they changed it on me, up here alcoholism is an addiction and substance abuse, not a disease or disability.

nope you can be an alcoholic and considered disabled in canada part of the human rights, same goes for being too fat, tho the cheque being sent to the bar wouldn't fly in canada cause you'd have to be trying to get over it to qualify and having a cheque sent to a bar wouldn't be considered trying to get it cured

i object to both of those simply because both were direct choices you made and not because of indirect actions, and as bad as driving drunk is, being paralyzed after you get into an accident because you drove drunk falls into the latter not the former, sadly

Larenxis:
Also Slash12, you seemed to ignore everything but white and male.

Thats because those were the only 2 that mattered in my case. Sexuality and Health don't apply to the situation of college programs/scholarships as much as race and sex. And middle-class does not apply at all.

EDIT:

Saskwach:
Besides, you're wrong. Being born white will grant you, on average, a far better education than being black would, college hurdles notwithstanding. Let's not forget that primary and early secondary teaching is the real determiner in a person's success and this is where blacks have it worst.

That may also be true but I go to a public school that is the least segregated school in our state. We seriously have at least 1 person from almost every major nationality and the area where I live is not segregated at all. Being black may give you a disadvantage in another area but I for one have not experienced this at all.

mshcherbatskaya:
God, being a healthy, straight, white, middle-class male must be the worst fate in the world. You poor thing, my heart just bleeds.

I'm so privileged. Sometimes I go to places filled with minorities who are illegal but I can't say because then I'd be racist and wave my millions of Benjamin's around just to tempt one of them into attacking me.

When they do my white-cop buddy pops around from the corner and nails them all with his pistol, classic.

EDIT: To elaborate, I'm being humorous. Too many people think being a white male middle-class citizen makes you live on cloud 9 while everyone else has terrible lives. I want to go to MIT. But to do that I need to "work" for a scholarship. I wish I was a minority so someone like some of you way up on your high horse will donate me all the money I need using the excuse that I "am a non-privileged" youth who might become a gang leader or something.

You're only widening the race gap by whining about how much better off some people are. You know why I'm in the middle class? My parents worked their assess off in Law School and the Navy to give me a life they couldn't have.

mshcherbatskaya:

The ATM - that's not really a handicapped thing, that's a shitty design thing and so it's independant of the handicapped issue. There are lots of things with shitty design, and "accessibility features" are not immune.

That's sort of my point. It was shittily designed as a result of pressure to be more less-able(Hate the H word) friendly, without actually looking at the needs of less-able.

What needs to happen is an investigation into the people, like your uncle, who NEED it and what he needs; and the people who are just lazy.

Hell, I'd trade my encyclopedic knowledge of Doctor Who for a decent ratio of pigment, properly functioning eyes and feet that don't sweat toxic waste; but we all could have a change for the better.

I'm usually happy just lurking in the shadows of most forums, but this thread has brought me into the sunlight. I've yet to see the hybrid parking here in Michigan, nor have I seen this family parking, and rest assured, if ever I do see them ill pull out my cell phone and call every friend I have with some form of Hummer and they will be parked in each and every spot available. I do disagree a bit with how you see handicapped parking (as a necessary evil). For the last 4 years I lived at home my father, who broke his back, was not even supposed to stand for more than 15 minutes let alone work or drive, but you do what's necessary to provide for a family. Without the handicapped parking when going to a grocery store or something of the like who knows how much worse he'd be now? Though I do agree with the fatties part, they can rot in hell.

Zeromaxx:
Words...

If anyone ever cared to look at what I actually DID say about handicapped parking (which wasn't nearly as much as one would think by how centralized on it the replies had been) I said the Elderly shouldn't drive, and don't necessarily deserve a placard for being old. To clarify on this, I am totally fine with Handicapped placards for people who drive FOR the elderly, but giving someone who is mobility-reduced a placard is admitting they don't have full motor function. If that's the case, WHAT IN THE NINE LAYERS OF HELL AND 666 LAYERS OF THE ABYSS ARE THEY DOING DRIVING?! You can't tell me someone who's legs can give way at any moment is capable of operating two to three pedals, nor someone who's response time is measured in minutes instead of miliseconds should be allowed behind the wheel. So yes, family/friends who drive the elderly around should have easy-access parking (sans when they AREN'T driving them, that abuse of a placard pisses me off).

Non-elderly needs for a placard... Again, I say all good to giving the pass to drivers of the disabled, but almost any disability severe enough to merit such a pass shouldn't be driving. When I took my drivers training, the instructors said to operate a car safely you need two arms, one leg, two eyes, two ears, and a working neck and back. So except for the one-legged people out there, anyone lacking such components shouldn't be behind the wheel.

Now people in wheelchairs. If it's motorized or self-powered I can see the need for an extended-size stall. Lots of those ramp-equipped vans need a full car's width on the side. But motorized wheelchairs or scooters don't merit close-to-door parking. Self-powered surely do, not because of the difficulty to get around, but because of their smaller size. Someone in a non-powered chair is much lower down, and can easily be overlooked by drivers. Safest way is having them as close to the entrance as possible.

And fatties. You all know my stance on fatties. I'm lightly obese myself, weighing in around 280-320 depending on the time of year, but I get myself around on foot. I don't use a mobility scooter, if I ever get so fat to need a scooter to get me around I have standing orders with my friends to put my fat ass on a treadmill until I can manage again. Treating the morbidly obese like their condition is not 100% their fault is only encouraging them to stay that way. Catering to them is even worse. There is NO condition that can make people so fat they can't walk, no matter what they do for diet or exercise. Any weight-altering condition can be managed when people actually work at it.

On the minority scholarships, allow me to use a famous if somewhat altered analogy:

There are two men racing.

One has his legs shackled, the other runs freely.

Now you remove the shackles.

Do you allow the race to continue with the unshackled 40 meters in front? or do you slow down the leader, speed up the trailer and then begin the race anew?

All metaphor aside, heres the Ultrajoe guide to growing a pair;

1) Realise what you have: Ok, all wants and needs aside look at what you have, an education, a chance at economic security, personal safety a house a family a life expectancy medical stability a militarily secure nation. On these benefits alone your kicking the shit out of 90% of the human race.

2) Realise what you want: Well, im not writing a list for you, think it up yourself.

Now Grow a Pair. You live in a society where you can have lavish wants and your basic human rights actually exist, and because all of a sudden you have to work hard to beat other applicants who are getting a shot at their dreams your pissed? you should be dancing in the streets your government gives a shit enough to try and combat race gaps. This isnt dismissive of your problems its a perspective change, sure you might be looked over for a university position or job but if you've truly worked as hard as you say then getting another should not be a problem, yeah?

Now, as an outsider perhaps my views on america have been a bit skewed but from time i've spent there and what ive seen on the news; you guys have a tendency to try and tear down anything good that happens to other people. Have you been disadvantaged directly? No, indirectly yes, but in truth the focus of this matter is not about you, you self centered jerk. Its about advantages granted to the less fortunate and you just had to get your ass in the issue didn't you? Just becuase someone has been given a break does not mean you should lash out and try and reverse it. You'll quote this and have a clever spiel about how terrible your life is what with someone other than you getting a leg-up, but in truth your just soft, lifes hard on occasion and if your biggest worry is not being able to get even further into the elite of humanity than you need to sit down and think about what the hell your complaining about. I've seen better behaviour out of children.

Perhaps the problem is not keeping someone else down in the mud but why the hell you love misery and her company so much.

Ultrajoe:
On the minority scholarships, allow me to use a famous if somewhat altered analogy:

There are two men racing.

One has his legs shackled, the other runs freely.

Now you remove the shackles.

Do you allow the race to continue with the unshackled 40 meters in front? or do you slow down the leader, speed up the trailer and then begin the race anew?

And what Khell is trying to say, using your analogy is:

I can run really fast, however there are others who can run fast too, though I have rather bad shoes, there is someone who was shackled and could run fast, and he is given a lift in a car, though because of my shoes I am going to lose the race, though because my disadvantage wasnt as obvious as mine hadnt been highlighted as much and I seemed to be the sae as the other racers, I am left without help.

I said the Elderly shouldn't drive, and don't necessarily deserve a placard for being old. To clarify on this, I am totally fine with Handicapped placards for people who drive FOR the elderly, but giving someone who is mobility-reduced a placard is admitting they don't have full motor function. If that's the case, WHAT IN THE NINE LAYERS OF HELL AND 666 LAYERS OF THE ABYSS ARE THEY DOING DRIVING?! You can't tell me someone who's legs can give way at any moment is capable of operating two to three pedals, nor someone who's response time is measured in minutes instead of miliseconds should be allowed behind the wheel. So yes, family/friends who drive the elderly around should have easy-access parking (sans when they AREN'T driving them, that abuse of a placard pisses me off).

You don't get a placard for being old, you get a placard for having impaired mobility. My grandmother, who died at 80 years old, would have never qualified for handicapped parking. Why? Because she was more spry and fit at 80 than I was at 30.

Having arthritis, a common age-related ailment, does not necessarily slow reaction time or make your legs unreliable. It does, however, make walking beyond a certain distance very, very painful. Furthermore, I don't know about how you drive, but I generally only us my legs from the ankles down. The weight-bearing muscles and joints aren't involved, so even if, for some reason, I can't stand, that doesn't necessarily impair my driving skills.

In another example, my Grandfather has reduced heart capacity from 20 years of coronary artery problems. Sitting down, the load on his circulation is minimal. Standing up, the man walks vvvvveeeeeerrrrrrryyyyyy ssssssssslllllllloooooooowwwwllllyyy. The fact that he can drive has kept him out of the nursing home, because he is completely capable of taking care of himself, because he can drive to the store and drive to the doctor.

Not all the elderly who are physically impaired are impaired in such a way that makes them unfit to drive.

There are lots and lots of things that impair physical mobility (as in moving from place to place, not moving at all) without impairing other functions, and it is almost guaranteed that you will become intimately acquainted with at least one of them at some point in the future. Unless of course you die tomorrow of an apoplectic fit triggered by your outrage at the unfairness of it all.

solarflare:

Ultrajoe:
On the minority scholarships, allow me to use a famous if somewhat altered analogy:

There are two men racing.

One has his legs shackled, the other runs freely.

Now you remove the shackles.

Do you allow the race to continue with the unshackled 40 meters in front? or do you slow down the leader, speed up the trailer and then begin the race anew?

And what Khell is trying to say, using your analogy is:

I can run really fast, however there are others who can run fast too, though I have rather bad shoes, there is someone who was shackled and could run fast, and he is given a lift in a car, though because of my shoes I am going to lose the race, though because my disadvantage wasnt as obvious as mine hadnt been highlighted as much and I seemed to be the sae as the other racers, I am left without help.

to continue this rather confusing metaphorical sprint.

Are you being slowed in any way by the car?

No, complaining about someone with shackled legs being given a lift in a car is like getting pissed when the disabled get their own parking spaces...

Oh wait, i think we already solved this argument on page 1.

Grow. ze. pair.

Ultrajoe, assuming the other racer, "Kenyan Minority" is even shackled is ludicrous. We live in the 21st century where racism is equal among minorities and majorities.

So the media and Kwanza and Snoop Dawg decided to order every minority in America to wear a shackle before the race with their easily-believable stupidity.

If they want to put a shackle on their leg then fine, do as you want to. But if my family needs to pay 100 dollars a month so they can forge a golden key to open the lock then you can count me out- it's just stupid.

Vaudille:
Ultrajoe, assuming the other racer, "Kenyan Minority" is even shackled is ludicrous. We live in the 21st century where racism is equal among minorities and majorities.

So the media and Kwanza and Snoop Dawg decided to order every minority in America to wear a shackle before the race with their easily-believable stupidity.

If they want to put a shackle on their leg then fine, do as you want to. But if my family needs to pay 100 dollars a month so they can forge a golden key to open the lock then you can count me out- it's just stupid.

i meant the shackle in terms of slavery and culture development.

In my original metaphor the shackles are removed but the runner is still a great deal behind when it comes to catching up.

I suppose the way this analogy has grown is bit convoluted.

So let me return to a past point. This is not about you, this is about aiding those with less opportunities than you, so why not help them and get it over with? it's starting to sound like Hal Turner reasoning in some parts of this thread.

mshcherbatskaya:
God, being a healthy, straight, white, middle-class male must be the worst fate in the world. You poor thing, my heart just bleeds.

Of course, despite being the rulers of the world and shit, we have to bow down to everyone else or face accusations of discrimination. I fucking dare any white politician to point out how unfair it is that Natives don't have to pay for hunting licenses, just because their ancestors hunted for food. Now that I think about it, that's actually kind of racist. "You're native! Clearly, you enjoy hunting, so to make up for some shit that our ancestors did to your ancestors a couple hundred years ago, you can hunt for free! Whitey still has to pay!"

I'd also like to question why the severely handicapped are allowed to drive, although having the handicapped sticker doesn't mean your in a wheelchair. I worked in a grocery store for a long time, and the only people that ever used those spaces were seniors (who likely suffered from the various pains that effect old people) and people with minor disabilities, like one leg not working correctly (and assumably hurting like a son of a bitch).

Who says minorities have less opportunities then I do?

What disgusts me is that white kids are being turned down, white kids with better grades and study skills, for the black kids with lower grades and study skills who are "worse off".

America is founded on the principal that all men are created equal. Giving more rights to a minority member then, say, a white man is undermining the very foundations of the liberty and equality set forth by our forefathers many years ago.

solarflare:

Ultrajoe:
On the minority scholarships, allow me to use a famous if somewhat altered analogy:

There are two men racing.

One has his legs shackled, the other runs freely.

Now you remove the shackles.

Do you allow the race to continue with the unshackled 40 meters in front? or do you slow down the leader, speed up the trailer and then begin the race anew?

And what Khell is trying to say, using your analogy is:

I can run really fast, however there are others who can run fast too, though I have rather bad shoes, there is someone who was shackled and could run fast, and he is given a lift in a car, though because of my shoes I am going to lose the race, though because my disadvantage wasnt as obvious as mine hadnt been highlighted as much and I seemed to be the sae as the other racers, I am left without help.

First, rather like the ADA thing, the design of affirmative action programs is desperately flawed. I'm not going to debate the mechanisms because they are blunt instruments intended to remediate social conditions rather than repair them. Additionally, there is a HUGE problem with the U.S. approach to social justice, and that is that we have never developed the ability to address classism separately from racism and sexism. but back to the analogy.

The thing about the guy in the shackles? In most cases, his shackles don't come off. They might get lightened up, but getting a college education doesn't remove the discrimination they face, it just gives them an opportunity to be discriminated against by a better class of people. So, yeah, maybe the guy does get a ride in the car to some spot in the track ahead of you, but the minute he gets out of the car, he starts losing ground again. Or she does.

So the question, in this model, is who deserves a ride in the car, and how far up the track should they be taken? Notice that this does not address the real problem, which is the shackles. It's a mechanism as clumsy as a short ATM, but what are you going to do? Just let the gap grow? That eventually leads to a group of people who feel they have nothing to lose, and that's a destabilizing force in any society, and a segment of your most gifted people that your society will never benefit from. So the government does arguably have a compelling interest in this, it's just that the government is not particularly smart, and quite frankly, I don't know of any society that's really figured out how to pick the locks on their shackles.

Why should someone be given more rights because they are a different race then me?

I've got long hair- people call me a hippie. That's not fair.
I'm only 5'7'', that's short, I should be compensated for the unfair conditions I was born in.

Msh, you seem like the most liberal stereotypical person I ever met, and thusly, I'd like to challenge your interpretation of the black culture.

There is no more gap between the minorities and the majority. Socioeconomic status (ie, living in a less privileged neighborhood), does not affect potential or IQ. It's people like you who widen the gap by insisting that us white people have the best lives in the universe and we're all destined to become rich and famous.

Do you know why my parents are rich and famous? They worked their assess off. Both came from poor farming families but they tried as hard as they could, didn't eat sometimes, worked all night, to pass Law School and the Naval Academy and now they make a decent amount of money.

Do you know why I'm going to be rich and famous? Because I'm going to do the same thing and spend all my life trying and working to become the best I can be. I don't want political correctness hindering my growth potential.

Do you know why you, Msh, are never going to be rich and famous? Because your mindset if so focused, so obsessed with the thought that minorities have terrible terrible lives and are constantly discriminated against. Hard working minorities won't like you because they work as hard as they can to be good and majorities won't like you because no one likes people like you.

Vaudille:

America is founded on the principal that all men are created equal. Giving more rights to a minority member then, say, a white man is undermining the very foundations of the liberty and equality set forth by our forefathers many years ago.

I resisted the urge to laugh in big bold letters only through sheer force of will.

I don't know what American history is taught in America, but by damned its different to what we were taught.

To be less horrifically flamebaitingish: it would seem once again i have different mindset than most of my 'opposition' and as such i dont think i am understanding what they are saying, nor them me.

To this effect i would say that what i see is a distortion of the issues rather than a problem with the system itself, and thats what i'm trying highlight. In any case, if this 'Affirmative Action' jazz produces the same amount of doctors and experts, than does America as a whole lose out?

Ultrajoe:

Vaudille:

America is founded on the principal that all men are created equal. Giving more rights to a minority member then, say, a white man is undermining the very foundations of the liberty and equality set forth by our forefathers many years ago.

I resisted the urge to laugh in big bold letters only through sheer force of will.

I don't know what American history is taught in America, but by damned its different to what we were taught.

Yes, ignore my entire post and focus on 2 sentences. You're a model debater I hope to heck you go to Nationals next year for your debate team.

Vaudille:

Ultrajoe:

Vaudille:

America is founded on the principal that all men are created equal. Giving more rights to a minority member then, say, a white man is undermining the very foundations of the liberty and equality set forth by our forefathers many years ago.

I resisted the urge to laugh in big bold letters only through sheer force of will.

I don't know what American history is taught in America, but by damned its different to what we were taught.

Yes, ignore my entire post and focus on 2 sentences. You're a model debater I hope to heck you go to Nationals next year for your debate team.

i'm sorry your other 3 lines were left out in the cold. What with all the high impact content and impartial reasoning i was just blown away.

Xhumed:

werepossum:
Wheelchair-bound stripper in a shower - I doubt that even the Internet has THAT fetish. (If it does, please don't send me a link.)

I don't have a link, but ive seen in Bizarre magazine an adult dating site for the disabled, which is almost the same thing, and not exploitative in anyway.

oh the you obviously havent haerd abotu the wornderful fworld of nuggets

This thread truly inspires me.

A revolution, I say!

Vaudille:

Msh, you seem like the most liberal stereotypical person I ever met, and thusly, I'd like to challenge your interpretation of the black culture.

Who ever said I was talking about black culture? I don't recall mentioning any specific race, or even specifying race as the primary factor. The fact that most affirmative action is centered around race, and more specifically, centered around the false duality of black and white is something I consider a problem, to say the very least.

There is no more gap between the minorities and the majority. Socioeconomic status (ie, living in a less privileged neighborhood), does not affect potential or IQ. It's people like you who widen the gap by insisting that us white people have the best lives in the universe and we're all destined to become rich and famous.

My goodness, that is quite the sweeping statement. Given the considerable research that has gone into the subject of socio-economic advantage and the ongoing debate at all points in the political spectrum, it's amazing that you could determine this all on your own.

And I'm carefully re-reading my own posts and I don't see any mention of white people specifically at all, and certainly not saying they were destined to be rich and famous. You seem to be projecting your own, er, black-and-white view of the subject onto me. I think the problem of inequality in America is tremendously complex, and our inability to think of inequality outside of a stereotypical "ghetto" setting really screws over a lot of people,including the rural, white poor among many others. Which doesn't mean that poor farming families like those your parents came from can't succeed, it means that they had to work their asses off and go hungry in order to do it, which is really fucked up when you think of the number of people who didn't have to do that in order to wind up in pretty much the same place.

Do you know why my parents are rich and famous?

No, I don't know why, or even if, your parents are rich and famous, but I will take your word for it.

Do you know why I'm going to be rich and famous?

No, but I feel certain you are going to tell me.

Because I'm going to do the same thing and spend all my life trying and working to become the best I can be. I don't want political correctness hindering my growth potential.

Oh, hey, I was right. We can both see the future. How about that!

Do you know why you, Msh, are never going to be rich and famous? Because your mindset if so focused, so obsessed with the thought that minorities have terrible terrible lives and are constantly discriminated against. Hard working minorities won't like you because they work as hard as they can to be good and majorities won't like you because no one likes people like you.

You are absolutely right! *cries* I'm deeply unpopular, just ask all of my friends...oh wait...

As for my future, I'm assuming you pulled your knowledge of that out of the same +10 Hat of All-Knowingness that produced your assertions on the economic and social status of minorities.

While fame is both beyond my reach and also utterly outside my interest, I'm surprised that you feel you know my current (or future) economic status. At the risk of over-disclosure, perhaps I should tell you a bit about myself.

So, there you are. Now you have to proper ammo to launch a real ad hominem attack if you want, and also possibly to stalk me if the mood strikes.

As for you, since we are now speculating on the other person's life and background despite our complete lack of information, you strike me as very young and very angry, and since your parents are rich and famous, I have to wonder why. Is it that you get called a hippie? The irony being that I am a hippie at heart, but nobody ever calls me that. The world is very unfair.

Ultrajoe:

Now, as an outsider perhaps my views on america have been a bit skewed but from time i've spent there and what ive seen on the news; you guys have a tendency to try and tear down anything good that happens to other people. Have you been disadvantaged directly? No, indirectly yes, but in truth the focus of this matter is not about you, you self centered jerk. Its about advantages granted to the less fortunate and you just had to get your ass in the issue didn't you? Just becuase someone has been given a break does not mean you should lash out and try and reverse it. You'll quote this and have a clever spiel about how terrible your life is what with someone other than you getting a leg-up, but in truth your just soft, lifes hard on occasion and if your biggest worry is not being able to get even further into the elite of humanity than you need to sit down and think about what the hell your complaining about. I've seen better behaviour out of children.

Perhaps the problem is not keeping someone else down in the mud but why the hell you love misery and her company so much.

Who the hell said that the minorities were less fortunate then anyone else? I'm going to fill you in on a little secret, contrary to popular belief, there are rich people of every race, and there are poor people of every race. There can in fact be a poor white person! or a rich Mexican, or a rich African American! To think that because you are born into a minority you are immediately less fortunate than anyone else is just stupid. Yes, "statistically" minorities are worse off, but that does not mean that it is true in every situation. All I am asking for with the scholarship stuff is that the playing field is leveled. Where I live, in my specific situation the Blacks/Mexicans/Indians/Albanians are no worse off then any white person, generally (Obviously there are exceptions that only apply to life decisions, not your ancestors...). Apparently, people like Joe and Msh believe that minorities in America are automatically put at a disadvantage, this is false. Sure there may be a level of racism, but racism happens to everyone, not just minorities. Bringing back my point, just give everyone the same opportunities, don't give more to someone because they were born into a minority, and don't give less to someone because they are a majority and "obviously have a better life ". To address most of your arguement Joe, I am not trying to bring anyone else down, I encourage everyone to work to become better then they are now, I am not trying to "lash out" at anyone because they made it far in life, That's great for them but it does not effect me. I know it sounds cheesy but, I just want everyone, regardless of race/sex to be given the same opportunities, no more of this "Minority Scholarship" stuff, Just open that same scholarship to everyone and may the best man win, race/sex should not come into play at all.

:shrug: honestly I find that if someone is being awarded a bonus based on a debilitating lifestyle choice which came down to being their decision, in majority or partial, they should not be given any type of advantage over others. "Ex: non-medically based severe obesity, large families or lots of children, disabilities brought about by drug abuse, any damage inflicted by stupid non-work related actions, [drunken stunts or reckless driving and the like]"
I do feel that those with a an accidental or non-choice based disability can be given small bonuses to raise the overall quality of life, as at base, our government "speaking from a philosophical, political, and definitive standpoint" is there to do what it can for the people, "ideally" including safety and comfort.
HOWEVER: I follow a rather rigid philosophical code, following natural selection rather harshly, so those who are born disabled should be helped no more than those who are born "normal" or at least, "able in comparison to the super majority". While those who are harmed purely by accident or work-related grievance, should be compensated accordingly, though not overcompensated.
feel free to comment?