The_root_of_all_evil:
*thinks long and hard about Khedive's world view*

Doesn't point 1 mean point 4 is impossible. As well as point 3.

Oh and point 3 makes point 2 difficult, as does point 1.

Do you mean that because no world view can ultimately be right it is impossible to learn life lessons? No. The idea behind point 1 is that you shouldn't be married to any idea because you have no way of proving it is right or beneficial in all cases for all people and even if you could there is no gaurantee that it would be the 'correct' opinion for as long as you'll be alive. In that regard point 1 works together with point 3: be ready for change.

As for your second point, if it was easy it wouldn't be worth it.

mew905:
Another example is before America was discovered, people thought the world was flat, we know this not to be true NOW, but according to their primitive science, it was true, and accepted. They also thought the sun revolved around the earth, again we know this not to be true now, but again, perception overrules science.

I will start by saying that I agree with MOST of your post, however I feel I must assert that it is a frequent misconception that before America was discovered people thought the world was flat. I am sorry to point this out as I know it is slightly off-topic and that you were merely using this as an example to explain your view. I however loathe such misconceptions being bandied around to further misinform people. Unfortunately I have only the ever-erroneous Wikipedia to quote (although there are an abundance of sources listed at the bottom of that particular article). This is due to myself being presently at work and so I regret that I do not have a more distinguished text to back up my criticism of your post:

"The modern belief that especially medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth. In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history. Several scholars have argued that "with extraordinary [sic] few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat" and that the prevailing view was of a spherical earth.

Jeffrey Russell states that the modern view that people of the Middle Ages believed that the Earth was flat is said to have entered the popular imagination in the 19th century, thanks largely to the publication of Washington Irving's fantasy The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828."

Of course the 3rd Century B.C. was long before Columbus's 1492 'discovery' or the controversal theory of Leif Ericson's (amongst other seafaring norsemens') 'discovery' somewhere around the 9th and 10th Centuries A.D. (BTW I use marks on the word 'discovery' as it is highly likely, if not certain, that people populated the Americas long before any traditional Western or Eastern cultures chanced upon it, ergo: it was already discovered by the human race as a whole).

If you would like to read the whole article just type "flat earth" into Wikipedia.
Again apologies for being slightly off-topic, I will ponder my personal viewpoint on the thread and will post it directly after reaching my conclusion.

Somethingironic:

I don't think it was the laws and rules that made us unique, I think it's the fact that one day we looked at our action and finally asked:

WHY?

Ahhh I see it differently its not the 'why?' that made us unique, its the fact we asked 'how?'

FireBlazer quote]

Ahhh I see it differently its not the 'why?' that made us unique, its the fact we asked 'how?'[/quote]

In fact I believe it is because we asked both 'Why' and 'How' to our actions and those of beings and objects around us.

@OP

1) I don't believe this is correct. Most life forms have the ability to choose between say a button on the right and a button on the left. If they discover the button on the right shocks them every time they touch it, they will reflect upon it and choose to not touch it again and again.

3) Yes, reality does set a limitation on possibilities.

It would be great if you could draw conclusions from said assumptions instead of just throwing them out there, preferably something that relates to theology.

As for the meaning of life: as weak as a paradox it is, I feel my personal purpose in life is to find my purpose in life. Perhaps nihilist are correct, and this is just a meaningless journey, but it is in the journey we find the most change and growth, not the end.

Brace your self, coz this may be a little too much to take in. Also, if i ofend you i'm sorry and please dont report me.
Now then.

I lost all faith and hope after relising the truth behind religion and existance. I'll start with the religion.

Why do you think people believe in god?
Because they want to.
People cant handle the truth that nothing happens after death so they panic and create ideas that make sence to them. so much so that they believe it at the drop of a hat. In short, god didnt create us. WE created god.

Now the truth behind existance.
It was all a mistake. So much of a mistake that it should be impossible.
Consider your existance, out of millions of sperm YOU made it into the egg. Your, and indeed all of ours, existance was SO unlikely it took several billions years to start!
So next time you think life is pointless. Look around at everything that has happened, coz your bloody lucky to be here.

BurnoutPriest:
@OP

1) I don't believe this is correct. Most life forms have the ability to choose between say a button on the right and a button on the left. If they discover the button on the right shocks them every time they touch it, they will reflect upon it and choose to not touch it again and again.

Yes, a basic animal could learn that one button is painful and the other is not, but the point I was making was that humans are the only beings on the planet who have made the choice to separate themselves from the norm. We have made the choices to build, to create, to ask questions, and the choices and sentience we have is the most important of all human assets. I didn't literally mean "Choice" in general.

ANTI-SANTA:
Brace your self, coz this may be a little too much to take in. Also, if i ofend you i'm sorry and please dont report me.
Now then.

I lost all faith and hope after relising the truth behind religion and existance. I'll start with the religion.

Why do you think people believe in god?
Because they want to.
People cant handle the truth that nothing happens after death so they panic and create ideas that make sence to them. so much so that they believe it at the drop of a hat. In short, god didnt create us. WE created god.

Now the truth behind existance.
It was all a mistake. So much of a mistake that it should be impossible.
Consider your existance, out of millions of sperm YOU made it into the egg. Your, and indeed all of ours, existance was SO unlikely it took several billions years to start!
So next time you think life is pointless. Look around at everything that has happened, coz your bloody lucky to be here.

Your truth is as lackadasial and boilerplate as Douglas Adam's 42. The simple fact is that we are not purely products of biology, but rather also that of enviroment and upbringing and a multitude of other factors.

Also, your use of accident is incorrect. Accident implies:

A) There was no intention for you to come into being. Pardon me for saying this, but my experience of the matter was that I was wanted, as are a great many children.
B) Something else was intended to happen: Your own argument invalidates this concept, because as you point out ALL possible conceptions are random. So we are either all accidents or none of us, and since we are the desired outcome (in a normal, western situation) there was no accident. Indeed, the fact that two people actually rutted together implies at least a subconscious desire to reproduce.
C) I will no more be grateful for my existance than for the sun coming up.

I know that I'm probably going to get flogged for this, but I find that the meaning of life is to serve God and do His Will in my life. It is my duty on this plane of existance to touch the lives of others and make their lives as good as possible, and if they are willing, to allow me to share the message of God to others. I find this to be my purpose, and the purpose of all Christians, really. I also find that the true "meaning" of life is outlined in the Bible.

Sure, I know this isn't a very popular view here on the site, but it's what I truely believe in. :)

Fair play to you CodeChrono for stating your beliefs without being afraid to do so.

I completely disagree of course, and I don't want you to share the message with me, but well done all the same.

It's impossible to find one 'meaning of life' due to the fact that life is subjective. Everyone sees things slightly differently and creates rationalizations to explain them. Just look at old scientific theories, the four elements, flat earth, spontaneous generation, all of it made perfect sense at the time, but eventually we were able to perceive things differently and thus find the holes in those theories. The periodic table replaced Earth, Wind, Water, and Fire just as modern biology replaced spontaneous generation to a degree.

Religions are just more rationalizations to help explain things without complete data. "God did it" seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation to someone without any means to perceive natural phenomena through a scientific viewpoint. The same goes for philosophy, each sage claiming to know the truth throughout the centuries. If one of them did know the truth, then why are there things they cannot address or why are there so many truths out there. The thing is, we can't find a meaning of life because our mind isn't equipped with either the biological capacity or the technological ability to comprehend everything.

On my own views of what to do before death, it all pretty much stems from the will to power. I have goals and I want to see them through before I die. Whether this is the product of my own neurological makeup or whether it's the reason anyone does anything (besides for the lulz of course), I don't know because I can't know. I'm not you, you're not me.

From a biological standpoint however, we can see that all life exists to reproduce. That is what all life has in common, even things that aren't alive like viruses and the like apparently exist simply to make more copies of themselves. Thus we have rationalized existence to be for the sole purpose of creating more life, that life for its own sake is the way to go. However, my view is that this would only apply to something without the power of conscious though. As people with the ability to say yes or no to biological imperatives, we generally kick nature in the face and go do whatever tickles our fancy and then justify it with whatever means we have at our disposal.

the meaning of life: n. the sum of the distinguishing phenomena of organisms, esp. metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment.

I know this is right, I looked it up. But, it still doesn't change the fact that at any moment I might die or other wise be transformed into a hunk of cheese, so I might as well enjoy life and trees and maple syrup and such...

Looks to me to be the explanation of the question rather that the answer to it BuckminsterF.

"The SUM of the...." If it said "The sum of the...IS:" the words following that would be the answer.

The answer would be off-thread anyway, an opinion or belief is what is sought - and I'm sorry to say it seems your post appears to be neither.

Although I do concede that any one of us may indeed turn into a lump of cheese or die at any minute so agree on the enjoying life now part (only one and a half hours to go until the end of my last night shift, woo-hoo! To the pub I will go this evening).

We already know the answer. What we need is the right question. I think it starts with either "Man is destined-" or "pie".

I agree with all of this completely, you sir have won the internets. And PR's cookie. You articulated what I was trying to say earlier perfectly. I think that for once, we have a question answered, thank you to shatnershaman, and mew for helping out.

We have answered the question that people can see colours differently, and maybe that it could relate to how people feel about different colours. Such as when you look at somebody's garage colour, clothes or car paint job and go: How could they pick that colour? Good job guys!

Anyways, here's another couple of questions:

If the universe as we know it is expanding, (see red shift effect) what is it expanding out of? ANd why is it growing? Is the universe a child? could we be cells on said child's leg? What if the child is god? Or what if the child lives in his own universe, which is on another child? (like the MIB galaxy marbles/locker galaxy thing) What if we're a universe contained within another universe, or we have several other universes contained within ours?

And another thing: If all human perception is based on our senses, how do we know if something does or doesn't exist? How do we perceive reality without these senses? Our whole perception of what reality is is rooted in our senses, but what if our senses are flawed, or we are missing a few? What could be out there that we don't know about?

To the first question: we could be, how do we know cells dont see our bodies the way we see the universe? we could merely be quarks, the planets as neutrons, protons, etc., and the galaxies as atoms to a much, much larger being. We dont know, and truth be told we will never know. Because chances are we will never reach a point of that kind of understanding.

In relation, all this stuff about "the closer to the speed of light that you are, the slower time goes", though you dont realize it because time has slowed for YOU and everyone with you. I think there's a problem there. The Speed of light is 300,000 KM per second, right? well if time stops AT the speed of light, that's an infinite distance in an infinitely small amount of time, isnt it? Light isn't instant, though we consider it to be. However last time I checked travelling 100 billion miles in no seconds (remember time has stopped) is sideways 8KPH, not 300,000 KM/S.
I think the reason we think this is because at the speed of light, all light you're travelling away from will seem to have stopped, hence the "time slowing down" thing. HOWEVER when we look forward, everything will be super sped up, to the point where it's indistinguishable and possibly even just... black (because we arent capable of seeing 100 gigahertz of light, this of course is just an example number).

As for the second question: Thats another good question, again we cant prove it but it IS an accepted theory on existence. It's called the matrix theory (obviously spawned from the movies) in which we're all just in a simulated world, sitting in a pod outside this percieved existence. It's really quite interesting because Alien technology could easily be advanced enough that they could create a near-reality virtual world, or so the theory goes. However in this theory it could actually be the year 6000, we lost some massive war and they use our bodies as power. Ya never know :)

And what could be out there that we dont know of? Well.. some people can see and taste sound, I cant remember what it was called but on the entire planet there's only like 200 of these people. It's basically where the brain accidentally (or on purpose, it could be our missing abilities?) links the senses together. As far as I know they cant smell sound though. Others can (supposedly) read other people's minds and/or manipulate objects (telepathy/telekinesis). Some people can predict the future, not nostradamus and other "prophets", if you read their writings with a very literal mind, you'll see they actually only say very general things. I mean if I said the earth will be struck by a comet, but never give a specific date, time, area, etc., then the chances of it coming true within the lifetime of the earth are almost infinite.
Some can (again supposedly) see spirits and make contact with dead people. This *COULD* be true if the mormon (I think thats who it is) faith is correct, me being aetheist, I dont believe any of that religion stuff though.

And finally: CartoonHead, I actually didnt know that. Thank you for that information. It grinds my gears as well when people spread false information but that is what many people are taught to be true. That and I figured america had already been "discovered" considering when columbus arrived the native americans were already here (hence the term using NATIVE). Oh, and for future reference should it ever come up, if I say the word "Indian" I am NOT talking about native americans, but actually speaking of the people in india, which, (again branching off) logically speaking, Columbus set out to seek out a faster route to india (again taught this in school way back in like grade 2 or 3 or sometime around there) and stumbled across the americas, and thereafter spawned the (now racist term toward native americans) "Indian" name for them. I dont know if thats correct, I came up with that a while ago using common sense and some logic. I had also heard about the chinese possibly discovering the americas long before columbus, so I guess it all depends on what goes into those history books that truly decides what is accepted, and what is the truth.

Sometimes people think of me as a racist when I mention indians, hence why I brought up that last bit.

I feel the sudden and pressing need for a double Bells and a teaspoon of tap water. Good lord, but all of this is far too painfully serious. The entire question is a subjectively phrased relativistic joke- a cosmic wind-up act by a macarbe god.

Or maybe not, but it's futile to ponder. Just stick to screwing and drinking, and you'll be fine.

Choice is, in fact, an illustion. Our choices at the reason of our thoughts, true enough, but our thoughts emerge from that machine we call the brain; Based off of biochemical reactions and physical particles, the whole system is deterministic (or would be if you had a big enough computer). Even if the universe isn't deterministic on the fundamental level (assume it has a fundamental level, of cause), we can assume that the brains reactions are predicatable.

Anywho, if you think about this for any length of time, you'll go insane looking meaning that may well be beyond what we can understand, or doesn't exist....

So, yeah, drinking, women, fun, etc. Oh, and your DNA wants you to breed...alot...greedy genes.

I just though I would share funny a story that was told to me.

A friend of mine in college was a serious pot-head. He liked to get high at any change he could. On one occation in particular, he was wasted and realized that he had discovered the meaning of life. Being as high as he was, he realized that he would not remember this revelation in the mourning. So he thought to write it down. The only thing he could find to write on was a box of Gorton's Fish Sticks. So he found a pen and wrote the meaning of life on a box of Gorton's Fish Sticks. He then passed out. When he woke the next day he had remembered that he had an amazing revelation as to the meaning of life, but he couldn't remember it. The then recalled that he had thought to write it down. So he picked up the box of Gorton's Fish Sticks to see what the meaning of life was. On the box of Gorton's Fish Sticks he wrote....

"Gorton's Fish Sticks"

True story.

I dont belive that life has any meaning, but there is a purpsoe (i have dyslexia so dont even think about bitching and whining to me) and that is for us to live life to our fullest potential.

some would say that the meaning of life is quite literally, just to live.

that our entire existence is a complex composition of bacteria and genetics structured to instill a sense of rationized self preservation in an attempt to perpetuate and copy itself.

Doug:
Choice is, in fact, an illustion. Our choices at the reason of our thoughts, true enough, but our thoughts emerge from that machine we call the brain; Based off of biochemical reactions and physical particles, the whole system is deterministic (or would be if you had a big enough computer). Even if the universe isn't deterministic on the fundamental level (assume it has a fundamental level, of cause), we can assume that the brains reactions are predicatable.

I disagree. As I said before, every possibility of any choice or decision can be mapped out. Not by humans, but it probably could be figured out. So technically, destiny is one of numerous inevitable results of any choice you make. Technically the results of any choice have been mapped out, but that doesn't make choice an illusion. The choice is what determines the outcome in the end, not probability or destiny. We choose the destiny, the inevitability is CHOSEN by man. So although technically any choice and result has been mapped out in a form of destiny, the choice is what determines what results or destiny that we do have.

If I choose between milk or apple juice, you could say that inevitably I am drinking either drink, or that I will inevitably drink SOMETHING. But the choice is what determines what I drink, and the inevitability of my drinking the apple juice or milk is resultant of that said choice. Choice ISN'T an illusion, but it does determine destiny and the final outcome.

(Technically depending on the choice being made and other things in effect and etcetera.))

Somethingironic:
Right... And I said I don't believe in a meaning to life, read the OP before posting please.

I just want to figure out a constant in the universe, or adapt my own understanding on different issues, such as:

Say I saw the color you identify as blue, but to me, and everybody else, that colour is green? I can point at a pair of pink pants and tell you that that colour is pink, and you will agree. But although we both label it as being pink, what if simultaneously we both see a different color? How would we know?!?!?

I've lost sleep over this one. It is impossible to perceive the world from another person's perspective with the technology and laws of physics we have now, and that is the only way I could come up with to really prove that you perceive color like everyone else.

Moving on, I am unfortunately not omniscient, so I don't know the meaning of life. Never the less, I have put some thought into this. Based on the few theories I understand, if there isn't some sort of creator being or beings, then there isn't really a meaning of life unless you count the various philosophies and goals of individuals. There is nothing wrong with these of course, but you can't legitimately hold one as superior to another.

Now if you are a religious fellow like myself, then it's a bit trickier. I'm a Christian myself, so please forgive me if I don't incorporate other belief systems, as I only have rudimentary knowledge outside of my own beliefs. Now there are several different concepts of a "God" varying between beings that are incomprehensible in every way and completely beyond us, to beings that could pass for a superhero, alien, or person from the future. Assuming that the "God" in question is of the omnipotent variety, then the purpose of our existence is essentially impossible to figure out. I've thought of a few things anyway. My favorites are as follows:
1. God's bored. We are a complex simulation of a universe built to amuse them. The "rules" of the game could vary, but my favorite is playing against a "computer player" A.K.A. Satan or other gods.
2. God really loves us and created this universe in an attempt to elevate intelligent beings (humans or aliens?) to God's status, so as to not be lonely.
3. God, along with all other "Pagan" Gods and other Gods, is fueled and sustained by human belief. Rather depressing view that ultimately means Gods are just another race of fallible beings, like us. Also brings to question the effects of belief on other things.

Ultimately, it is impossible to think from the perspective of an omnipotent being without being one, so we can't really hope to understand "God" beyond what we are told through unfortunately poor communications.

Assuming that there is not a "God" I do have a meaning of life, "Work to achieve happiness with the least negative effect on others that is possible, in order to allow other to reach the same goal."

Angry_Researcher:

Assuming that there is not a "God" I do have a meaning of life, "Work to achieve happiness with the least negative effect on others that is possible, in order to allow other to reach the same goal."

Yeah, that about sums up what I'm trying to do in my life. Karma is a bitch...

Somethingironic:
Yeah, that about sums up what I'm trying to do in my life. Karma is a bitch...

Heh yea your right. I like the thoughts happening in this thread, it is good to see the wheels turning for once.
I can't make philosophies go away, I can't convince my self of ANYTHING without concrete evidence for or against it, I can't forget advice, and I can't stop praying, hoping, imagining, or dreaming. This makes me biased in favor of religion, though I'm perfectly willing to consider and think on other concepts that contradict it.

I hate/love philosophy.

Somethingironic:

If I choose between milk or apple juice, you could say that inevitably I am drinking either drink, or that I will inevitably drink SOMETHING. But the choice is what determines what I drink, and the inevitability of my drinking the apple juice or milk is resultant of that said choice. Choice ISN'T an illusion, but it does determine destiny and the final outcome.

(Technically depending on the choice being made and other things in effect and etcetera.)

Well, what I meant was you THINK your choosing between milk and apple juice, but if some entity (lets call him the Hypothetical God of Juices and Milk - or HGJM for short - and no, I'm an agnostic, so don't really believe his juicy wonders exist) where watching and taking down the precise position and velocity of every particle in the volume of space that could affect you before making your decision (and the particles that make up you, of course), HGJM could run that data through the laws of physics, and predict exactly what choice you'd make, when you'd make it, etc.

How, HGJM probably doesn't exist (in his milken form or not) and humans are stuck by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (or as far as current science knows) and the computational power needed to compute this would be huge! So, realistically, it'll be hard/impossible for the human race (or any species in the universe) to test, so, it can't be proven, which in of itself is fustrating.

I love discussions that actually get me thinking, thats pretty much why I keep coming back to post. I love to answer questions, clarify, and make a debate, and the meaning of life is an eternal debate going on for centuries.

What, from a biological stand point? Be fruitful and multiply.

Well? What are you waiting for?

that's totally what I was gonna say xD