unabomberman:

Razzle Bathbone:
It's an interesting time to be alive. Just a few generations ago, women couldn't vote, own land, or choose for themselves whether or not to have kids. Their husbands could beat the shit out of them every day with no consequences. It's amazing how quickly the world forgets. If not for feminism, none of these things would have changed. Do you want to live in a world where half the populace has no right to self-determination? I sure as hell don't.

Try watching an episode or two of Mad Men for a glimpse of what it was like a mere half-century ago. Half a century. That's nothing compared to thousands of years of human history, and by that point the "women's libbers" had already made amazing progress.

Threads like this show just how far we have yet to go. But we'll get there.

Actuall it's not really feminism that got them that, it was, for the most part the Industrial Revolution and World War II. You can say men were dying by the thousands and to keep the industry going at appropriate rates, the busines managers had to hire women. After that, they weren't willing to lose what little ground had been gained.

Captain, sensors are detecting a strong chicken field in the area. We're also picking up massive levels of egg radiation.

Eisman, if black people and women have stereotypes that stop them acheiving, then that's fine because the french have a stereotype they wouldn't give a shit about?

XY talking:

Reflecting, I'd can't imagine why any thinking woman wouldn't consider herself a feminist. To reject the notion would be to accept (societal) inequality while drawing the short straw.

I think the problem lies in both the deliberate and the unintentional misinterpretation of the idea which ends up with defensive men and hateful women.

Deep topic, at any rate. Carry on.

Decoy Doctorpus:

Sejs Cube:

asacatman:
Islagat, games portray women as inferiour to men. What's the definition of sexist again?

I honestly can't think of a game in recent memory that actually went so far as to portray women as being intrinsically inferior to men. Maybe specialized in different ways, but that's the same for any comparison of characters. I can think of several examples where some of the strongest and most competant characters in the game are female. Samus Aran, Lara Croft (sexualized, granted, but certainly not inferior because of her gender), Ashley from Mass Effect, and of a host of characters from the Final Fantasy series, etc, etc.

Ninja gaiden.

My problem with feminism is that it disregards/trivializes issues facing men. I mean, the _male_ main character is a hunk of a guy, basically emotionless as he murders thousands of people all for the sake of honor. You think that's not a negative stereotype?

Or, back when I was in highschool, they had a poster you were supposed to sign avowing to never commit violence against women. I'm not against that in principle, but there was no mention of violence against men, the girls in the class weren't encouraged to sign it/etc/etc. It could as easily have been a promise to never commit any domestic violence.

As for 'sexism', I've always found it a stupid term... men and women ARE DIFFERENT. It's a fact. Men have penises, women have vaginas. The idea that differentiating between the sexes is somehow a negative thing is absurd.... noone ever calls a women sexist for not being bisexual.

KneeLord:
XY talking:

Reflecting, I'd can't imagine why any thinking woman wouldn't consider herself a feminist. To reject the notion would be to accept (societal) inequality while drawing the short straw.

I think the problem lies in both the deliberate and the unintentional misinterpretation of the idea which ends up with defensive men and hateful women.

Deep topic, at any rate. Carry on.

I've always loved this quote:
"In my heart, I think a woman has two choices: either she's a feminist or a masochist."
-Gloria Steinem

My friend (male) once held open a door for a feminist and she said:

"I DON'T need a MAN to open the door for ME"

My friend was speechless and I was shocked and then quickly became very angry. We still have no idea whom she was. I'm not sexist and my friend's not to so that was completely unnecessary.

Tehwalrus, ryu is a total badass and everyone wants to be like him. Oh and how many women have you heard of that raped someone or commited domestic violence? Not many. Yes, men and women are different. But Women aren't inferiour, they are just as good at rational thought, but not sport or being strong physically.

asacatman:
Tehwalrus, ryu is a total badass and everyone wants to be like him. Oh and how many women have you heard of that raped someone or commited domestic violence? Not many. Yes, men and women are different. But Women aren't inferiour, they are just as good at rational thought, but not sport or being strong physically.

Are you trolling? I sort of hope so... if not, this is the sort of thing that makes people hate feminism - idiots who don't know a thing about it.

My problem with feminism is that it disregards/trivializes issues facing men. I mean, the _male_ main character is a hunk of a guy, basically emotionless as he murders thousands of people all for the sake of honor. You think that's not a negative stereotype?

Or, back when I was in highschool, they had a poster you were supposed to sign avowing to never commit violence against women. I'm not against that in principle, but there was no mention of violence against men, the girls in the class weren't encouraged to sign it/etc/etc. It could as easily have been a promise to never commit any domestic violence.

Yeah, but the females are a different member of our species who happens to not be as phisically strong as we are, and isn't as violence prone as we are. How hard can that be to understand?

If someone tells you "don't hit a girl," just because you are a guy is sexist, but statistically you ARE more prone to engage in that kind of behaviour. There are even cases of guys who manhandle girls ina "spur of the moment" thing and deeply apologize afterwards(meh).

If there is a stereotype about stupid, violent men, is because we have earned historically, as sucky as that is, is the truth.

I also believe that genders should be respected equally. What I get really annoyed with, though, is women telling me how disadvantaged they are. While I'm not saying they're necessarily telling lies, I just don't think equality will ever be achieved if women don't believe they're equal.

Also, I don't like the way women are given advantages, either. I don't see why a scholarship should be awarded only to a woman and it not be available for a man. Again, it's women not believing they're equal. I feel really passionately about this, and the same goes for most prejudices, I just really think people should be judged as an individual, not by their gender, race, religion, etc. Introducing schemes to give women some kind of advantage over men is really perpetuating the problem. It makes women look handicapped, which just isn't at all true, and it shouldn't be like that.

So, after my ranting, hopefully I got the point across that, no, I disagree with feminism because it suggests that women are not equal.

I completely understand where feminists are coming from, but I believe that a lot of them are undermining their overall goal with the way they're going about it.

asacatman:
most politicians and businessmen are men

Okay, can someone explain this one to me? We can't just kick out these men and replace them with women, after all, as these men worked up to their positions.

asacatman:
Eisman, if black people and women have stereotypes that stop them acheiving, then that's fine because the french have a stereotype they wouldn't give a shit about?

WHAT. Am I to understand that you're under the impression that women stereotypes are "stopping them from achieving?" Are you kidding me?

People have been saying they hate feminists. All right, how do the same people feel about women's rights. This isn't an insult, I just want an opinion.

EDIT- eisman, women are stereotypically, not as good at buisness and politics than men because they need to stand around and look pretty. Not many women are into politics and buisnes.

I personally don't lean either way

I believe what Fendant said is probably the best answer that we're going to get but unfortunately not all feminists see it this way.

I personally am not prejudice and don't want to discriminate against anybody, but this also compliments that I don't want to be discriminated either, and this puts feminists in a bad light (at least in my eyes) when you see in newspapers women attempting to chastise all and any form of man even while not on their time of the month.

Personally Equal is good, but sometimes people can try to be too equal. We should all just find a good balance and hold onto it. Hopefully my faith in mankind isn't so badly placed as to be wrong about this.

asacatman:
First of all I AM A GUY and not a woman, jsut to clear that up. But my family are all big feminists.
I saw in a previous thread a lot of people saying they hated feminists and being what I thought was quite ignorant. The idea I got was that feminists are crazy freedom fighters who want to kill all men and ban penises. But they're not! Feminists want a world where men and women are completely equal. This idealogy is just that, an idealogy. It is not reality. Rape conviction rates are crap, most politions and buisnesmen are men, women are plauged by stereotypes... Feminists still have a long way to go. But what to you guys think?
On a side note, video games are all completely sexist and don't give me crap about there being loads of female characters because the only non crazily sexualised female characters are in RPGs and that's it.

You stole my ducks!

Okay, this has been covered pretty extensively. And I'm usually fairly anti-feminist, so take some salt with my opinions.

Equality is something most human beings don't want. Feminists want "equality," which I really don't agree with. Here's the thing about equality, is it's completely non-discriminatory. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, Cuban, Asian, Mexican, British, Australian, male, female, or several of the above. You get the same thing everyone else gets.

Separate bathrooms? Denied. Scholarships? Denied. Maternity leave? Hell no. Honestly, it's not that great a thing, this whole equality subject. I like the fact that students have certain rights that can't be trumped, or the fact that women can get maternity leave, or that minors have to get breaks after a certain point.

I like the idea of non-equality, so it's fair for everyone, especially those with disabilities.

You know what I don't like? Feminists. I'm fine if they want to crusade for the "equality" they want, whatever. Unfair benefits toward women is fine, but feminists have a nasty habit of trying to call all men the enemy. It's my fault? My forefathers long since passed screwed you, so you think I deserve your scorn for having the poor taste to be born male?

Not just no, hell no. Screw you, the horse you rode in on, and the entire stable that housed the horse, you shouldn't take it out on me because you're a self-righteous, crusading prick!

avykins:
Bah. Feminism is bullshit. Every chick I have met who talked about that wants to be paid the same as a man, get all the rights of a man but still wants to be treated special. Its absolute crap. Then when things dont go their way they always pull the "sexist" card.
I have worked with too many women who could not do the job but when you pointed out they were crap they always claimed you were just saying it because they were women.

To be honest, you can't judge any time of discrimination and how bad it is unless you yourself have been through that. It's the same thing with homophobia and racism.
I have gone through a lot of one of these myself (I'll let you guess which one) and you get people saying it's no big deal and I just think, well yes it is. You get stereotyped and treated as inferior and all this stuff and all it does is hold you back until you start to think "maybe I am worse than them".

I'm female and personaly I dont mind some of the things feminists are going after but some stuff makes me rolls my eyes and walks off.

My dad said something to me once out of worry but this is the only think ever said to me that was slightly sexist 'you know that if you go along this career path you'll find it hard as its male dominated, maybe if you pull you feminie charm you'll get in'. I've got the talant and passion to get that I want, I ever have and ever will pull the 'im female' card on anyone.

Then again I love looking after my paretner, cleaning and cooking for him. I do it becasue I love him and want to take care of him. He does moan when i do all the cleaning as he keeps saying ne needs to do half of it (he cant cook apart from ready meals XD).

Sexism is iin games, you cant denine it but its 2 ways thing. I've talked to a lot of people about this and thing about it, both female and males fit into a few diffrent catagorys, to give an example geek, fighter. You can point out that some females are there for eye candy, but there are a lot more males out there that are eye candy for females. The way the females are still ... exsadrated is that sadly for a few reason - in pixel times it was the only way to really show them apart, and in low poly times it made them nicer to look at as guys bodys are more blockly. Now we going into high poly, these habbits are there but some people are trying to get about of them.

Saying "I'm a feminist" has as much bearing as saying "I favour democracy over facism and dictatorships". Everyone is a feminist. Saying you're not will just have me give you a very Yahtzee-esque "Yes you are" because noone seriously believes that people should not be treated fairly, i.e. be given the same opportunities, rights and obligations which is in essence what feminism is about: be fair to eachother, no matter what hangs between your legs.

But saying you're a feminist doesn't take you very far. You know what you want to achieve but you don't know how to get there. It's the same as with democracy: you know you want all the power to come from the people, but how do we realize it into something substantial? Do we go by direct democracy or representative democracy? Do we go by parliamentarism or do we use separation of power? Do we... and so on ad infinitum et nauseum.

Feminism suffers from the same problem. One feminist is to another what a US democrat is to to a dito republican, i.e. have very different ideas how to go about things. Feminism comes in many various flavours and most of them - while sharing the basic idea of fairness between genders - collide violently when it comes to realizing this goal.

One of the dominant feminisms out there is Radical Feminism, a product of the 1960s and the so called Second Wave of feminism. Crudely put, Radical Feminism takes Marxism and replaces "class" for "gender"... and that's it. The basic theory model assumes that all men are privieged and that all women are not. Men and women are analyzed of two huge collectives pitted against eachother. Radical Feminism is also the feminism behind regarding pornography and prostitution as oppressive against women.

Other feminisms don't agree with this model since it is blunt, unnuanced and quite sexist(*) towards both men and women in that makes broad sweeping assumptions about individuals based on only their genders. Individual variation within the gender groups are not concidered. Because of this, people wanting to work for equal opportunity between the genders but that do not buy into these generalizations that Radical Feminism do have formed other feminisms.

For example: I made a point up there that Radical Feminism made an enemy out of porn and prostitution because there are feminisms that don't. In these you find feminists that are working in the adult industry, like for instance porn-legend Nina Hartley.

Hence, saying you are a feminist really tells us nothing except that you think that being fair to people is a good idea. You don't automatically hate men because you're a feminist, nor are you forbidden to wank your twat to fetish-vids.

So, on a personal note, what kind of feminist am I? Well it's hard to tell really. I disapprove of labels and as such I havn't categorized myself beyond the fact that I'm not a Radical Feminist. I believe that the Radical Feminist model of analyzing the state of things is fundamentally flawed and that beyond fixing the most glaring errors, such as for instance gender specific legislation that limits a person's rights depending on gender (helloooo Saudi Arabia!) Radical Feminism has little to no bearing on 21'st century western democracies.

I believe everyone should have the same rights but I also concider it your own damned lookout to use them, i.e. don't blame men if you you can't be bothered to take advantage that which has been given to you. For example: when I started my university education in 1993, the program to attain a master degree in computer science and engineering (i.e. a degree in nerdishness), there were 90 students admitted that year. 2(!) were women. Now am I to believe that there is some patriarchal old dinosaur that sits at the swedish university services and deliberately tosses applications from females in the bin, or are we faced with the problem that women simply did not apply?

My main guideline is that of "Informed and consensual free choise". You're free to chose whatever you like as long as the choice is based on valid, pertinent and comprehensive facts and understanding of things, and most importantly on what you actually want. If you as a woman choose to act traditionally "girly" and playing a helpless bimbo that rely on men to provide for you, then that's your damned perogative to do so and I'm not one to judge you over it. At the same time I believe that if you as a big muscly man want to act girly, dressing up in pantyhose, makup and a miniskirt, that too is your perogative and I shall not judge you over that either.

So... am I a feminist? You betcha!!

/S

(*) Sexism is inequity between the sexes, just like racism is inequity between races.

NewClassic, sorry about the ducks but I'm not changing them.
Anyway, I've said, don't talk about how much you hate feminists, talk about women's rights, because that's what feminists should support.

unabomberman:
If there is a stereotype about stupid, violent men, is because we have earned historically, as sucky as that is, is the truth.

Yet if I said the stereotype about stupid, erratic women has been earned and is the truth... how would you respond?

I'm statistically prone to hitting girls? And that's not an offensive, sexist statement?

Female physical abuse of men happens. Maybe in 0.001% of relationships. You think, oh, that's barely any... but out of 50 million men, that would still leave 50 thousand abused that are ignored.

I would estimate that an equal number of males are abused by men than are females, but I don't have the statistics to prove it.

In a nutshell, I find that the feminist movement has created alot of sexism against men and doesn't seem to care at all.

Decoy Doctorpus:
Ninja gaiden.

The recent ones, you mean? Honestly I havn't had a chance to play 'em - what's their deal? I'm curious.

Ah, feminism. Apparently we're not allowed to attack it in any way, shape or form. Any attempt at tearing it apart is met with equal amounts of screaming and the stock response of "I'm not *that* kind of feminist!"

Apparently there's so many varieties of feminism that it's safe from attack. Fuck that.

I've never seen a feminist acknowledge that men are treated unfairly at all, except just prior to delivering a demand for us to "man up" and stop complaining. I've never seen a feminist understand that *men* are the primary victims in wars. No, they always talk about how the women are suffering the most.

Feminism is not about equality. Feminism is about more stuff for women, at the expense of men.

Gee, people seem to come in and just say they hate feminism. Maybe they should first clearly STATE what they understand for feminism and then proceed from there. Many seem to think that feminism is about "them angry bitches," or some other kind of pushy women declaring men the enemy. Just to be on the safe side, people should start actually saying what they think feminism is, first.

Like this:

"To me feminism is about angry bitches with machineguns and chainsaws who want to chop off my god given weiner and stay away from the kitchen where they should be, so in light of that, I think..."

See, it's not that hard. That'll save us sometime regarding the inevitable argument of what is and isn't "feminism" according to people.

I don't hate all feminists. Just the radical feminists. I believe many of their views are warped and skewed.

asacatman:
NewClassic, sorry about the ducks but I'm not changing them.
Anyway, I've said, don't talk about how much you hate feminists, talk about women's rights, because that's what feminists should support.

NewClassic:
Equality is something most human beings don't want. Feminists want "equality," which I really don't agree with. Here's the thing about equality, is it's completely non-discriminatory. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, Cuban, Asian, Mexican, British, Australian, male, female, or several of the above. You get the same thing everyone else gets.

Separate bathrooms? Denied. Scholarships? Denied. Maternity leave? Hell no. Honestly, it's not that great a thing, this whole equality subject. I like the fact that students have certain rights that can't be trumped, or the fact that women can get maternity leave, or that minors have to get breaks after a certain point.

I like the idea of non-equality, so it's fair for everyone, especially those with disabilities.

Sayvara, thanks for the detailed post. I will now argue with it.
women don't take oppurtunities given to them. This is because of societies portrayal of women as people who don't take university degrees! If a girl went into my school and played football and was really good at maths and science and dressed in a non sexual way, they would be much less popular than a girl who was the stereotypical girl.

unabomberman:

Razzle Bathbone:
It's an interesting time to be alive. Just a few generations ago, women couldn't vote, own land, or choose for themselves whether or not to have kids. Their husbands could beat the shit out of them every day with no consequences. It's amazing how quickly the world forgets. If not for feminism, none of these things would have changed. Do you want to live in a world where half the populace has no right to self-determination? I sure as hell don't.

Try watching an episode or two of Mad Men for a glimpse of what it was like a mere half-century ago. Half a century. That's nothing compared to thousands of years of human history, and by that point the "women's libbers" had already made amazing progress.

Threads like this show just how far we have yet to go. But we'll get there.

Actuall it's not really feminism that got them that, it was, for the most part the Industrial Revolution and World War II.

So, they gained the right to vote and own land and control their bodies and not get shit-pounded because... of the industrial revolution? They didn't have to fight for it?

I suppose you believe that blacks didn't have to struggle to overcome slavery and aren't still struggling to overcome the legacy of slavery. That sort of thing never comes without a fight. And the people who fought for women's right to be treated like human beings are called "feminists".

Hi, I'm Cassie, and I'm a feminist.

Feminism has come a long way. I was watching Senator Clinton's speech at the Democratic Convention the other night, and something she said stood out at me: "My mother couldn't vote for president, but now my daughter can vote for her mother for president." (I'm sure I misremembered a word or two, but that was the gist of it.) That right there encapsulates just how much things have improved. It was not so long ago that the only acceptable jobs for an unmarried woman were secretary, schoolteacher, and nun, and the first two were only meant to last until the woman found a husband. But, we still have a long way to go, as women are still not treated equally when they are doing equal work. In order to be given the same level of respect as a man in the workforce (and a great number of other social situations), women have to work harder than a man (and I'm not saying women shouldn't have to work hard; I think that *everyone* should work hard, and the fact remains that all too often men do not have to work hard to be seen as competent).

It is important to remember, however, that most moderate feminists (like myself) aren't just campaigning for women's rights, but men's rights as well. It's about changing people's perceptions about gender in general. Just because someone is a woman doesn't mean she can't be a high-level executive; and just because someone is a man doesn't mean he can't be a great stay-at-home dad if he wants to be. Men are not all boorish, overly-aggressive pigs, and women are not all demure little baby-makers.

Gender has a long way to go in gaming, as well. We always hear about over-sexualized female characters, but how about the fact that practically every male character is Rambo ported over to different settings? I'm sure all of you can come up with many examples of good male characters, but is that because there really is less of a problem with objectified males, or just because there are more male characters in general?

We have a long way to go, ladies and gentlemen, but we've come further still along the road.

In an ideal world we should all be equal but that's not the case in reality, fair enough women should be equal and I'm all for it, just don't be a dick about it is all I say, if you are then you overstep being a "feminist" and become a "bitch" and I will tell you to shut up and take your bullshit elsewhere cause I won't be very tolerant of it.