A friend said to me the other day:
"surely, if we're all just a mass of energy, then we can't have souls"
"Why not?" I asked him
"because our emotions are all just chemicals, and our personalities are just imbalances of these chemicals".
"your point...?"
"That there can't be a God if there's no soul."

Here's my theory:
We are, basically, a mass of flesh, blood etc. But looking further, what do you see? Particles. Further? Atoms. Further? Nucleus of an atom. Further? Electrons. Now, that's about 99.9% space, so humans are basically a mass of energy and space having a human experience.

but the question I ask is, how is it possible that this energy has been arranged in exactly the right way? What put it there? How? Really, what's your theory on the whole "God" debate?

My theory is that I'm waiting until I'm old enough to drink alcohol and forget about all this.

But seriously, I don't really care. There are some things that are impossible to know, and if a question like this isn't one of them then I don't know what is. I don't believe in god, I'm not sure about a soul, but since I do believe in ths possibility of ghosts existing I figure that there may be a "soul" in the form of some sort of energy in living things. That's what I hear that makes sense, that ghosts are left-over energy.

ElephantGuts:
There are some things that are impossible to know,

I sort of agree, but I wanted to know what other people thought.

That was a big warm up for a 'do you believe in god thread' but OK. Essentially i agree with evolution and science. Though i think there are lots of unanswered questions and hold to a very liberal Christianity in my more philosophical moments.

I have a feeling this will get ugly...

But I do agree with you. I find it hard to believe that we are put together so perfectly and there is only science to answer for it. As a student taking even a rudimentary class in Astronomy, I know that the Earth's stability is incredibly rare, and to think that it's just because a bunch of debris formed in the right way at the right time? Hardly.

I'm not really much of a Christian, as I see most of organized religion as a joke these days, but I do have theories...

I have a rather warped opinion on "God".

You see, I think that if you wrote a giant text book about every piece of scientific knowledge known to man you would have written out god or atleast a part of it. I think that every little thing, the formation of a star, the osmosis of water across a semi-permeable membrane, the birth of a chimpanzee, the creation of the universe, whatever all falls back to science. Instead of calling all of this stuff science, I call it God. God has a plan for us, so does science*. That plan is to decompose and provide energy for other species. God created man, science* created man through evolution. God created life, science* created early proteins. I think that the first person that thought of the possibility of a universal creator and controller thought of some sort of internal clock work that keeps things under control similar to the way science (please note I'm including every bit of scientific information under this heading) controls everything. Science* controls why Birds can fly, trees can grown, I can jump but not very high, the orbit of the moons around Saturn etc etc. Science, controls everything, god controls everything (if you believe in religion) so why is it so absurd to believe that god is science. Science (to me atleast) is a hidden clockwork of sorts that controls everything in the universe. Seems pretty god like to me.

But sometimes I find this hard to believe so I chose the Sun as a giver of life for everything on Earth and hence the closest thing we have to a god.

* I'm well aware that "science" doesn't do these things, something else does, but that something else can be put under the heading "science" and written up in the grand text book I mentioned.

Fire Daemon:
I have a rather warped opinion on "God".

You see, I think that if you wrote a giant text book about every piece of scientific knowledge known to man you would have written out god or atleast a part of it. I think that every little thing, the formation of a star, the osmosis of water across a semi-permeable membrane, the birth of a chimpanzee, the creation of the universe, whatever all falls back to science. Instead of calling all of this stuff science, I call it God. God has a plan for us, so does science*. That plan is to decompose and provide energy for other species. God created man, science* created man through evolution. God created life, science* created early proteins. I think that the first person that thought of the possibility of a universal creator and controller thought of some sort of internal clock work that keeps things under control similar to the way science (please note I'm including every bit of scientific information under this heading) controls everything. Science* controls why Birds can fly, trees can grown, I can jump but not very high, the orbit of the moons around Saturn etc etc. Science, controls everything, god controls everything (if you believe in religion) so why is it so absurd to believe that god is science. Science (to me atleast) is a hidden clockwork of sorts that controls everything in the universe. Seems pretty god like to me.

But sometimes I find this hard to believe so I chose the Sun as a giver of life for everything on Earth and hence the closest thing we have to a god.

* I'm well aware that "science" doesn't do these things, something else does, but that something else can be put under the heading "science" and written up in the grand text book I mentioned.

Your point was kinda convoluted, summed up it would be something like "God made science, evolution, Life, the Universe and Everything"? That's what I got from it anyway.

"surely, if we're all just a mass of energy, then we can't have souls"
"Why not?" I asked him
"because our emotions are all just chemicals, and our personalities are just imbalances of these chemicals".
"your point...?"
"That there can't be a God if there's no soul."

Well he's assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that a soul has a physical manifestation. While I personally don't believe in souls, I accept that they're inherently spiritual and therefore don't *really* have any relevance to the biology of the human body.

Don't even get me started on the whole cloning and teleportation >_<

Amnestic:

Your point was kinda convoluted, summed up it would be something like "God made science, evolution, Life, the Universe and Everything"? That's what I got from it anyway.

I was trying to say that "God is science, evolution, Life, the Universe and Everything".

Curses.

curlycrouton:
A friend said to me the other day:
"surely, if we're all just a mass of energy, then we can't have souls"
"Why not?" I asked him
"because our emotions are all just chemicals, and our personalities are just imbalances of these chemicals".
"your point...?"
"That there can't be a God if there's no soul."

Here's my theory:
We are, basically, a mass of flesh, blood etc. But looking further, what do you see? Particles. Further? Atoms. Further? Nucleus of an atom. Further? Electrons. Now, that's about 99.9% space, so humans are basically a mass of energy and space having a human experience.

but the question I ask is, how is it possible that this energy has been arranged in exactly the right way? What put it there? How? Really, what's your theory on the whole "God" debate?

Okay, let's look at that. Quarks, Protons, Atoms, Molecules, Chemicals, Cells, Bacteriums, Living Organisms, Complex Organsms, Continents, Plants and Planets, Stars, Nebulae, Galaxies and Univereses. The unfathomable beauty and grandeur that existence brings, the amounts of knowledge Humankind has brought to itself, the infinite complexity of simply the human mind, the sheer unrelenting marvel of it all.

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Anarchemitis:

curlycrouton:
A friend said to me the other day:
"surely, if we're all just a mass of energy, then we can't have souls"
"Why not?" I asked him
"because our emotions are all just chemicals, and our personalities are just imbalances of these chemicals".
"your point...?"
"That there can't be a God if there's no soul."

Here's my theory:
We are, basically, a mass of flesh, blood etc. But looking further, what do you see? Particles. Further? Atoms. Further? Nucleus of an atom. Further? Electrons. Now, that's about 99.9% space, so humans are basically a mass of energy and space having a human experience.

but the question I ask is, how is it possible that this energy has been arranged in exactly the right way? What put it there? How? Really, what's your theory on the whole "God" debate?

Okay, let's look at that. Quarks, Protons, Atoms, Molecules, Chemicals, Cells, Bacteriums, Living Organisms, Complex Organsms, Continents, Plants and Planets, Stars, Nebulae, Galaxies and Univereses.

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Edit: Drat! Beat again.

Amnestic:

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Oh, that's real clever, Mr. Factual.

Anarchemitis:

Amnestic:

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Oh, that's real clever, Mr. Factual.

Well...you -did- ask. Don't really know, but I'd go with that as well. There's nothing wrong with chance and coincidence, they don't devalue anything.

Anarchemitis:

Amnestic:

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Oh, that's real clever, Mr. Factual.

OMG! In 5 card stud I got dealt a straight! There must have had a purpose! (Never mind the thousands of other, meaningless hands played before and after...)

Just because there's some sort of order in the universe doesn't mean that the universe was designed. Sometimes the patterns we see are faces in inkblots, imposed by our own expectations; sometimes the patterns we see are the patterns imposed by the granularity of the universe, no more a sign of makers' marks than ripples in the beach sand; sometimes the patterns we see arise after millenia of random changes.

Space is big and time is vast; there's room for plenty of wonder without invoking an artist using us as a canvas.

-- Steve

Anarchemitis:

Amnestic:

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Oh, that's real clever, Mr. Factual.

My friend had this averagely cool story about a green bust of Napoleon appearing in the nothingness of space randomly. It was to do with Quantum theory and infinite time (I think). Either way, it postulated that given infinite time, everything can (must? will?) happen at some point. It's a tad over my head, but the basic idea is that given infinite time, eventually our universe would have been formed. Sure, there's not much chance, but the fact that we have time eternal to keep trying means that eventually we'll hit the mark and get the universe we wanted (This one).

Obviously the "we" is a disembodied "we" as opposed to the actual people of you and me.

To come at it from a philosophical view that is not my own (too inconvenient):
Is there anyway to prove that your senses are not fooled and that your memories are all false, and that you just came into existence this very moment? Not really. So the only thing you can be sure of is what does not come from your senses or your memories, something that exists in the present. You know your consciousness exists. And since you cannot trust your body to exist, as you only experience it through your easily deceived senses, you cannot trust your consciousness to root from the juices in your brain. And voila, a soul.

Amnestic:

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's not an explosion, it's a rapid expansion...
Edit: and also, complexity will always occur given enough time and enough energy.

Lukeje:

Amnestic:

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's not an explosion, it's a rapid expansion...
Edit: and also, complexity will always occur given enough time and enough energy.

"Dammit Jim, I'm a philosophiser, not a Scientist!"

Lukeje:
..Complexity will always occur given enough time and enough energy.

Induced by: ?
(Yay Thomas Aquinas!)

Anarchemitis:

Lukeje:
..Complexity will always occur given enough time and enough energy.

Induced by: ?
(Yay Thomas Aquinas!)

I award you one cookie for knowing who made that argument. Congratulations!

Also, agreed.

curlycrouton:

but the question I ask is, how is it possible that this energy has been arranged in exactly the right way? What put it there? How? Really, what's your theory on the whole "God" debate?

It hasn't and well the universe had infinite do overs. Big Bang,theory,theory, another boring theory,etc. .

I don't see how the non-exitence of souls makes it impossible for God to exist.
I don't see why there being no life after death means the non-existence of God.

kanada514:
I don't see how the non-exitence of souls makes it impossible for God to exist.
I don't see why there being no life after death means the non-existence of God.

So...what's your point? If there's nothing there, no continued existence of the soul, no afterlife, what's the point of God's existence then?

Although that of course takes the position of: Well if I'm not getting anything out of it, then why should I believe, which is kind of stupid anyway ^^' If you really must believe in something of this nature, the just believe, not because you expect to be rewarded somehow.

GothmogII:

kanada514:
I don't see how the non-exitence of souls makes it impossible for God to exist.
I don't see why there being no life after death means the non-existence of God.

So...what's your point? If there's nothing there, no continued existence of the soul, no afterlife, what's the point of God's existence then?

Make the universe, perhaps?

Amnestic:

GothmogII:

kanada514:
I don't see how the non-exitence of souls makes it impossible for God to exist.
I don't see why there being no life after death means the non-existence of God.

So...what's your point? If there's nothing there, no continued existence of the soul, no afterlife, what's the point of God's existence then?

Make the universe, perhaps?

And? While I'll admit, such a feat seems well, phenomenal, to what end? (Still assuming of course that God/A god is indeed the progenitor.)

GothmogII:

Amnestic:

GothmogII:

kanada514:
I don't see how the non-exitence of souls makes it impossible for God to exist.
I don't see why there being no life after death means the non-existence of God.

So...what's your point? If there's nothing there, no continued existence of the soul, no afterlife, what's the point of God's existence then?

Make the universe, perhaps?

And? While I'll admit, such a feat seems well, phenomenal, to what end? (Still assuming of course that God/A god is indeed the progenitor.)

I like to think that if God did exist, that he created the universe out of boredom.

Anarchemitis:

Amnestic:

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

It's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

Oh, that's real clever, Mr. Factual.

I think you're forgetting the anthropological principle. Weren't our universe designed the way it is now, there would be no humans wondering why the conditions of their universe are ideal for life to evolve. Even if you don't believe in the multiverse theory, there was no event of absolutely improbable luck. The difference is that between being baffled to win the lottery when you personally filled in your numbers, or being baffled to get handed a big bag of money even though you already know you got the numbers right.

GothmogII:

kanada514:
I don't see how the non-exitence of souls makes it impossible for God to exist.
I don't see why there being no life after death means the non-existence of God.

So...what's your point? If there's nothing there, no continued existence of the soul, no afterlife, what's the point of God's existence then?

Although that of course takes the position of: Well if I'm not getting anything out of it, then why should I believe, which is kind of stupid anyway ^^' If you really must believe in something of this nature, the just believe, not because you expect to be rewarded somehow.

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that God has no point of existing because YOU don't get to have a second life?
Do you think that God is your slave or something. You think he should just exist so you can have a life after death.
Be glad of what you have. God gave you 1 life. That's a lot already. Don't take it for granted and enjoy it as much as you can while you have it. See the beauty in nature, and try to be a part of it and cherish it as your descendants that will also be granted the gift of life will also want their chance at living in it.
The poit of God was to give you an ephemerous existence. Everything is ephemerous, God is eternal. Don't have the prentention to think that you will also benefit from a state of eternity as that is the attribute of only Gods. By God I mean, an entity able to trenscend time and space and thus not be affected by the effects of enthropy which affect all tangible forms of existence.

We should probably get Kim Ung-Yong up here. He has ALL the answers.

From me? Like the thread implies, there are little answers. So my answer is, should I care? I mean, it's dumb to believe in one religion, because how do you prove Christianity is the right one? That there was Jesus, and his father etc? Or maybe Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and that bunch are real gods. As much as I see fit, it would be wise to just live a good life, no typical sins like killing, lying etc, and I'm pretty sure you're going to get to a good place. Unless we have the Vikings' religion, where we go to hell, when we die of natural death, even when we're squaky clean like Mary, and the "heaven" is just a place like earth, but without diseases. And we have to die from an enemy to go there! *shivers*

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that God has no point of existing because YOU don't get to have a second life?

If we have no soul, large chunks of holy scripture become meaningless. Holy books are already on shaky ground when it comes to actual events. If the spiritual side becomes questionable, well... You have to have a lot of faith to believe in something full of contradictions.

Tell it to my face that it's all a coincidence due to an explosion.

If our existence is the one-in-a-billion result of an explosion, and that explosion happens a trillion times, then there's a pretty good chance that we'll happen at least once.

Personally, the fact that the galaxy is built like it is, that atoms behave the way they do, that our different cultures, parents, teachers, friends, all contributed to us having this conversation, with the opinions that we do... That it all happened by an impossibly small chance, that the odds against our very existence are calculated with numbers far too big for us to comprehend... I find that more beautiful that anything else. It's so delightfully fragile.