JaggedIron: One thing I like about evolutionists is.
Ok so everyone is going green in america, save energy because the world is burning up.
Ok with that thought in mind...
If evolution was true, wouldn't we just adapt to our toxic enviroment overtime?
Mull on that for a while.
No, we'd be dead first. Evolution takes a long time to enact itself.
yes evolution takes a long time because it is in essence determined by chance, and because of the number of variables that go into any given adaptation it is further prolonged by even the slightest degree of change.
That is why no agnostic has been able to convince me that God doesn't exist. 300 different cell divisions, chemicals, and electrical charges have to go exactly perfectly and in order for a human being not to be born mentally retarded. I just can't see all of that happening purely by chance.
You would be suprised at the things that could happen by chance. You have to realize that if there is even only a .00000000000000000000000000001% chance of some thing happening then that means that it could happen. If you play the lottery than you can understand my logic (and yes I know it is allot more likely to win the lottery but it was just an example)
I think the point being made was it's difficult to imagine all these things happening at the same time purely by chance. It's an argument made by proponents of intelligent design... The lottery is done by chance, for sure, but on a far smaller scale, IMO.
You would be suprised at the things that could happen by chance. You have to realize that if there is even only a .00000000000000000000000000001% chance of some thing happening then that means that it could happen. If you play the lottery than you can understand my logic (and yes I know it is allot more likely to win the lottery but it was just an example)[/quote]
Considering the number of non-retarded (physically afflicted) people on the planet and what I had just stated...you have only further convinced me to believe in God. On a side note: That's funny...the people that argued in a preceeding thread for "Big Bang" and "Evolution by Natural Selection" (without a higher order/creator of some kind) didn't state that it "could have happened" but that it "did happen" and that other people were "stupid for believing in God in the face of scientific evidence". Considering the number of variables that happened between Big Bang and human development on Earth, I find that ludicrously humorous.
apmpnmdslkbk: You would be suprised at the things that could happen by chance. You have to realize that if there is even only a .00000000000000000000000000001% chance of some thing happening then that means that it could happen. If you play the lottery than you can understand my logic (and yes I know it is allot more likely to win the lottery but it was just an example)
Considering the number of non-retarded (physically afflicted) people on the planet and what I had just stated...you have only further convinced me to believe in God. On a side note: That's funny...the people that argued in a preceeding thread for "Big Bang" and "Evolution by Natural Selection" (without a higher order/creator of some kind) didn't state that it "could have happened" but that it "did happen" and that other people were "stupid for believing in God in the face of scientific evidence". Considering the number of variables that happened between Big Bang and human development on Earth, I find that ludicrously humorous.
It would seem that there was a rhyme and reason behind things happening JUST SO in terms of evolution and the creation of the universe, if only because it's exceedingly difficult to come to terms with the idea that it could have happened without anyone interceding to make it the way it is now. Granted, that doesn't prove God exists, but it doesn't disprove His existence, either.
Xhumed: ...Not at all like any other religion then?
Funny enough, Hinduism (which does have a Heaven and Hell) says that, regardless of what you believe in, as long as you are a good person, you'll end up in Heaven.
PLEASE NOTE: I will be answering these posts based on what I believe, not in generalizations of the faith of others.
It would seem that there was a rhyme and reason behind things happening JUST SO in terms of evolution and the creation of the universe, if only because it's exceedingly difficult to come to terms with the idea that it could have happened without anyone interceding to make it the way it is now. Granted, that doesn't prove God exists, but it doesn't disprove His existence, either.[/quote]
Very well spoken, BUT I guess I could use this to cancel out Xhumed's theory on me not knowing the desires on a divine being:
"You have believed because you have seen. Blest are they that have not seen, and still believe." God wants that toss-up because only then His prerequisite for Heaven (FAITH) can be used. If He were simply to show Himself (as He did to Job), then He would forever screw mankind from getting into heaven. So this forces you to decided: do you believe, or not?
I think the point being made was it's difficult to imagine all these things happening at the same time purely by chance. It's an argument made by proponents of intelligent design... The lottery is done by chance, for sure, but on a far smaller scale, IMO.[/quote]
Intelligent design is the compromise between faith and science ("We believe some arbitrary being created the universe, but we don't want to necessarily call it GOD"). It does not force you to choose one or the other (so it is beginning to be embraced by many). Problem: it does not count toward Agnosticism on one end, nor does it acknowledge God on the other end. Careful if you straddle the fence not to knock your balls on one of the fence posts :)
Xhumed: ...Not at all like any other religion then?
Funny enough, Hinduism (which does have a Heaven and Hell) says that, regardless of what you believe in, as long as you are a good person, you'll end up in Heaven.
And the Baptists say that if Hitler himself acknowledged Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, he automatically goes to heaven too. I'll just have to grin and bear it and trust God to check everyone at the end.
Once again, if I am right, I have gained everything. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing by trying. If you think I am stupid because of this...FABULOUS!! Thank you all, keep the faith, and good night.
yes evolution takes a long time because it is in essence determined by chance, and because of the number of variables that go into any given adaptation it is further prolonged by even the slightest degree of change.
That is why no agnostic has been able to convince me that God doesn't exist. 300 different cell divisions, chemicals, and electrical charges have to go exactly perfectly and in order for a human being not to be born mentally retarded. I just can't see all of that happening purely by chance.
Well, the thing is, Evolution is not a random process, defined by chance. Evolution is not chance, it is natural selection, something people seem to look over or ignore when the talk about Evolution. Now, to understand natural selection, you have to have an understanding of genetics.
Characteristics are passed down by genes. Yours are a random combination of your parents, along with a VERY small amount of mutations, many time less then occur even in computers (I can't remember the exact numbers, it's been a year since I heard them in Biology). Some of these mutations are beneficial, and some are not. I think that everyone here agrees that someone that has a mutation that gives them an IQ of 76 had a much lower chance of having as many offspring even now compared to someone who has a mutation that makes them a little bit more creative with no negative side affects. Therefore, the negative mutation disappears from the next generation, while the positive one becomes more common.
These numbers are all completely made up, I just am going to use them to illustrate a point. If something like this process happens, say between 10000 mates every 2 years for even only 5000 years, that is 25000000 children, with, say 4 mutations each (100000000 mutations), 50% of which don't do anything, 49.9% of which are negative and disappear within 5 generations, and .1% of which are positive and become more common until they are almost ubiquitous. That's 100000 positive changes in only 5000 years. Now, these numbers probably aren't right, but you see the point.
For a real life example look at dogs. Now selective breeding does speed up natural selection, but still. Wolves were domesticated about 10000 years ago. Look at how different the breeds of dogs are, and how different they are. People liked certain traits, so they spread the traits around.
Sorry if that was lengthy, but a misunderstanding of Evolution is one of my pet peeves. It also might not be as clear as it should because it's kind of late.
I don't think I want to worship a moody God, the guy's killed more people than Satan. Seriously.
Satan: 7 God: 4 Million (Give or take)
Also, one of my major gripes is the fact that it's awfully convenient that God stops showing up after the Bible is created. Huh, like he never existed, even.
I find evolution so reasonable because it makes so much sense. A load of little cells climbed from the bottom of the pile to the top, changing and surviving, eventual some monkeys gained larger brains and weaker jaw bones and lost a lot of hair and here we are.
One thing before I go: If God created us, who created God? And who created God's creator? And who created that creator? And so on.
Xhumed: ...Not at all like any other religion then?
Funny enough, Hinduism (which does have a Heaven and Hell) says that, regardless of what you believe in, as long as you are a good person, you'll end up in Heaven.
I'd like to believe that, even though I'm nominally Christian. Or at the least, if you're a good person but don't find G-d, you should be reincarnated and given another run.
On the subject of the op, people bash Christianity because they are exposed to it the most.
As for why people bash religion, there are a lot of reasons. Two that spring to mind being that it has done so much damage, the other being that religion oppresses non-religion, and people like to bash their oppressors.
As for why I don't believe in a god, it seems to me that all evidence has been for them seems to be completely fabricated by humans. I understand that there is still a chance, but I don't think it is any higher then the chance that Santa is real. Also, I don't like the fact that people believe in their god, but not in the gods that came before that one. There are also so many more that I just don't feel like listing them all.
stompy: Funny enough, Hinduism (which does have a Heaven and Hell) says that, regardless of what you believe in, as long as you are a good person, you'll end up in Heaven.
And the Baptists say that if Hitler himself acknowledged Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, he automatically goes to heaven too. I'll just have to grin and bear it and trust God to check everyone at the end.
Wait, what?
Edit: Really, the OP's question was answer around page 3; we don't need to extend this conversation any longer.
That is why no agnostic has been able to convince me that God doesn't exist. 300 different cell divisions, chemicals, and electrical charges have to go exactly perfectly and in order for a human being not to be born mentally retarded. I just can't see all of that happening purely by chance.
Well, the thing is, Evolution is not a random process, defined by chance. Evolution is not chance, it is natural selection, something people seem to look over or ignore when the talk about Evolution. Now, to understand natural selection, you have to have an understanding of genetics.
Evolution is change in a population over the course of generations. Natural selection is a phenomenon that has influenced the course of evolution because of the relationship between genetics and reproduction. However, it is not the only phenomenon that has influenced the course of evolution: for example, Genetic Drift/Founder's Effect has influenced the course of evolution.
As for "300 different cell divisions, chemicals, and electrical charges have to go exactly perfectly and in order for a human being not to be born mentally retarded," well, that would be true if humans evolved directly from a single-celled organism. However, we didn't. First that single celled organism's cell divisions went perfectly enough to form a multi-celled organism. Then the multi-celled organism's cell divisions went perfectly enough to form a multi-celled organism with differentiated cells. Then...that just kept happening and happening until humans were only a few cell divisions away from our primate ancestor turning into a human.
In other words, you're overestimating the need for perfection involved in creating non-retarded humans by way of chance. It's not like needing to roll 300 lucky sevens the hard way by throwing 600 dice grouped into pairs just once: it's more like having to roll 300 lucky sevens by rolling a pair of dice one pair at a time as many times as you can over the course of 4 billion years.
That wasn't lengthy, Fud. Most of the flatearthers I have an in depth discussion of this topic don't really have an understanding of the theory of evolution. This is often made worse by the outright fiction they are fed by their believer parents/peers/pastors in regards to it. The most important things they are missing, in my experience, is an appreciation of the scale of time involved, and a knowledge of probability and sample size.
Those last points also contribute to their rejection of carbon dating, which is forehead-slappingly stupid.
Genetic mutation is random, caused by errors in cell division and growth, as well as radiation, viruses and any number of other environmental factors and compounded by the inherent randomness that is sexual reproduction. Once an organism has traits that give it a competitive edge over other members of it's species, however, it is more likely to pass on beneficial ones to the next generation.
Negative traits have a habit of disappearing because not only do they make their originator less likely to reproduce, but if they do their offspring are less likely to pass them on to their own offspring. Eventually such traits disappear. Some, such as cancer, disappear very quickly.
Over many, many generations (thousands, perhaps millions of years) the accumulation of positive mutations change the shape of entire species, literally transforming them into new organisms. The acts of these organisms change the environmental factors of every other organism in the system and they change in response. If the population doesn't change quickly enough in response, the species dies out.
That is evolution in a nutshell. We can see evidence of it in the laboratory, in the fossil record and in the world around us. It is as well supported as the 'Theory' of Gravity. God himself has no such luxury as evidence, so we are left with verifying the claims of the Bible. It doesn't hold up well in areas where it's possible to test it.
Just throwing this out there... I completely believe in evolution. And the question of who created God stumps me (and rightfully so, because there's no answer to it other than, aha! He doesn't exist). Hard science, in my book, trumps blind faith every time, but part of me will never, ever cease to believe in God. It's so ingrained that it's impossible to turn my back on it at this point.
That all being said, I don't expect (however hard I try) to find out the answers to every query raised and every contradiction stumbled upon. At some point, I'll be told (again) that I have to have faith. That's unfortunate for someone like me who so desperately seeks concrete, empirical truth, but that's religion.
Religion doesn't have proof, period. That doesn't necessarily make it incorrect, but it doesn't make it correct, either.
TheDean: Here's my other thing with Christianity. According to this religion- god has some type of divine plan for us. Everything we do is predetermined. Now, if that is so, it means god knows everything we will do, and in fact- since he is all-powerful, he made it happen.
So then how the hell can he punish us for doing what he told us to do?
Well, i guess if we'd read the story of moses we should expect that anyway.
ummm......I can't even form a rebuttal for this because you like many people on this thread have the amazing ability to form an opinion without having done so much as read the bible, let alone analyze it
What? I have red more of the bible, and listened to readings, more than most moderate christians i reckon. And please do attempt to form a rebuttal, i look forward to your arguments. TO be honest, i'd love you to prove me worng and find out i'll og toheavenland with all the leprachauns, pixies, fairies and bunny rabbits.
Well to be honest with you I'm surprised you can't answer the question yourself, but because analysis seems to be a weak point of yours along with grammar and spelling (I'm no saint either) Ill kindly explain this to you. -The wills and ways of god are not defined in the bible, any person who claims to know gods without the sign of works is blasphemous. While the bible does clearly state that god is both omniscient and omnipresent, it is also clearly stated that god created us with free will. The explanation to this is simple, and to eliminate the risk of loosing you through scripture I will present an analogy. Imagine you are a coach watching a football game of a past game, the players in the past had a choice to either to obey you or disobey you, now imagine you have the footage of this game and every other game to come, while the coach may try to accommodate the play to benefit the players it ultimately comes down to your personal choice to obey or disobey the play. -in closing I'm still confused as to what scriptures you used to attain your current opinion.
What scripture i used? It's called the bible. I like to read little bits they don't teach you in Sunday School. Not the stuff about fairies and streets paved with gold. Actually, my spelling and grammar are really good when i'm writing, i just suck at typing. My analysis is fine also. And no, quoting scripture wouldn't have lost me.
However, you just admitted that hte bible is vague. That's eomthing i hate about it. It's like a jogsaw puzzle we have to work out how to piece together. If it was that important god would have just told us the answer. Am i the only one who can see this? Ir is he just messing wit us again? "Guess what-- here us the answer to everyhting, pity it will take thousands of years for any of you to understand it. LOLOLOLOLOL" And no, according to religion we do not have free will, here is why. God is all-powerful. That means he makes all the decisions. If he has everything pre-determined, we cannot possibly have ANY free will whatsoever. None. The Bible does say we have free will, therefore it is contradicting itself. BUt come on, should we have expected any less form it? The bible constantly contradicts itself over and over again.
And just for the record, if you proved to me that god was real, i still wouldn't worship that frickin' egomaniac. If he came to me now, i'd kick him in the face- right where his face lives.
mkb07a: Just throwing this out there... I completely believe in evolution. And the question of who created God stumps me (and rightfully so, because there's no answer to it other than, aha! He doesn't exist). Hard science, in my book, trumps blind faith every time, but part of me will never, ever cease to believe in God. It's so ingrained that it's impossible to turn my back on it at this point.
That all being said, I don't expect (however hard I try) to find out the answers to every query raised and every contradiction stumbled upon. At some point, I'll be told (again) that I have to have faith. That's unfortunate for someone like me who so desperately seeks concrete, empirical truth, but that's religion.
Religion doesn't have proof, period. That doesn't necessarily make it incorrect, but it doesn't make it correct, either.
No! You don't have to have faith. Question everything. Never give up looking for answers. Religion teaches us that we don't need to know answers. Then again, religion is a lie.
Christians are the most vocal in preaching their religion which although I am fine with them being religious, preaching is just irritating and never works.
TheDean: Here's my other thing with Christianity. According to this religion- god has some type of divine plan for us. Everything we do is predetermined. Now, if that is so, it means god knows everything we will do, and in fact- since he is all-powerful, he made it happen.
So then how the hell can he punish us for doing what he told us to do?
Well, i guess if we'd read the story of moses we should expect that anyway.
ummm......I can't even form a rebuttal for this because you like many people on this thread have the amazing ability to form an opinion without having done so much as read the bible, let alone analyze it
What? I have red more of the bible, and listened to readings, more than most moderate christians i reckon. And please do attempt to form a rebuttal, i look forward to your arguments. TO be honest, i'd love you to prove me worng and find out i'll og toheavenland with all the leprachauns, pixies, fairies and bunny rabbits.
Well to be honest with you I'm surprised you can't answer the question yourself, but because analysis seems to be a weak point of yours along with grammar and spelling (I'm no saint either) Ill kindly explain this to you. -The wills and ways of god are not defined in the bible, any person who claims to know gods without the sign of works is blasphemous. While the bible does clearly state that god is both omniscient and omnipresent, it is also clearly stated that god created us with free will. The explanation to this is simple, and to eliminate the risk of loosing you through scripture I will present an analogy. Imagine you are a coach watching a football game of a past game, the players in the past had a choice to either to obey you or disobey you, now imagine you have the footage of this game and every other game to come, while the coach may try to accommodate the play to benefit the players it ultimately comes down to your personal choice to obey or disobey the play. -in closing I'm still confused as to what scriptures you used to attain your current opinion.
What scripture i used? It's called the bible. I like to read little bits they don't teach you in Sunday School. Not the stuff about fairies and streets paved with gold. Actually, my spelling and grammar are really good when i'm writing, i just suck at typing. My analysis is fine also. And no, quoting scripture wouldn't have lost me.
However, you just admitted that hte bible is vague. That's eomthing i hate about it. It's like a jogsaw puzzle we have to work out how to piece together. If it was that important god would have just told us the answer. Am i the only one who can see this? Ir is he just messing wit us again? "Guess what-- here us the answer to everyhting, pity it will take thousands of years for any of you to understand it. LOLOLOLOLOL" And no, according to religion we do not have free will, here is why. God is all-powerful. That means he makes all the decisions. If he has everything pre-determined, we cannot possibly have ANY free will whatsoever. None. The Bible does say we have free will, therefore it is contradicting itself. BUt come on, should we have expected any less form it? The bible constantly contradicts itself over and over again.
And just for the record, if you proved to me that god was real, i still wouldn't worship that frickin' egomaniac. If he came to me now, I'd kick him in the face- right where his face lives.
well I do have answers for you, but your a very closed minded individual and further explaining anything to you be the equivalent to talking to a proverbial wall. So im not going to waste time trying to convince you that you just might be wrong, about something. instead i'm going to play fracture (yes it's shitty) and ignore you.
-If the bible is confusing to you maybe you should learn Hebrew.
hypothetical fact: Christians are the most vocal in preaching their religion which although I am fine with them being religious, preaching is just irritating and never works.
Would you rather have them killing your families and burning down you house.
Christian extremist are far less destructive than Muslim extremists, or even animal rights extremists.
mkb07a: Just throwing this out there... I completely believe in evolution. And the question of who created God stumps me (and rightfully so, because there's no answer to it other than, aha! He doesn't exist). Hard science, in my book, trumps blind faith every time, but part of me will never, ever cease to believe in God. It's so ingrained that it's impossible to turn my back on it at this point.
That all being said, I don't expect (however hard I try) to find out the answers to every query raised and every contradiction stumbled upon. At some point, I'll be told (again) that I have to have faith. That's unfortunate for someone like me who so desperately seeks concrete, empirical truth, but that's religion. Religion doesn't have proof, period. That doesn't necessarily make it incorrect, but it doesn't make it correct, either.
Begging your pardon, I did not mean to sound like I knew nothing about evolution...I understand the theory of natural selection, and how adaptations allow species to evolve physically, mentally, and behaviorally to their surroundings- but to tell me that:
1) ONE planet in the universe created the atmosphere to facilitate life (SCIENCE HAS NOT FOUND ANOTHER YET, and trust me, they have been searching). Meaning: PERFECT balance of Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Oxygen in the atmosphere, PERFECT iron core and rotation so that sunlight could bathe the planet almost equally (and so that we have the WATER CYCLE), PERFECT distance from the STAR (otherwise known as the SUN) so that it is neither too hot nor too cold, PERFECT distance from other planets as to not interfere with the creation of said atmosphere, PERFECT balance of iron, carbon, and the 120 or so other elements on the periodic table?). PERFECT distance away from other stars and from the center (BLACK HOLE, proven undisputed now) of our galaxy?- Just in that, I have listed millions of variables that scientists both HAVE and HAVE NOT found.
2) That life developed on a cellular level, adapted to change to its changing and unstable environment by growing fins, flippers, teeth, lights on its head, emerged from the water, grew legs,etc. MILLIONS OF SPECIES EVOLVING PERFECTLY AT DIFFERENT TIMES BUT STRANGELY JUST IN TIME TO BENEFIT OR LIMIT THE GROWTH OF OTHERS.
3) That some of that life was made extinct by the impacts of one or several meteors that happened to wipe out the dinosaurs but somehow spared sharks, plants, cellular and mammilian life? That life since then has put in order that has not been broken in the eons that passed between dinosaurs and mankind's first appearance.
Umm...then to tell me the paramecium did it all by himself (with no external help) doesn't make very much sense to me either. (By the way, Darwin is still looking, and the MISSING LINK between Australopithicus and man kind has yet to be found).
To quote Jim Carrey in Bruce Almighty, "Now You're just showing off."
As far as "What Created God?", the answer to that depends on your interpretation of the Book of Genesis (which is mutually shared by Islam, Judaism, and almost all derivatives of Christianity). In the beginning there was God...and the Word was with God. (I lack direct quote here)... If you take the phrase (The WORD) as the empirical concept of "Order", then that's where He came from. Not the best explanation, but one I can accept (besides, if nothing existed before the Big Bang came along, then what does it matter anyway?).
Having faith is by no means not being scientific. And turning to it in times of crisis for spiritual strength and healing is more helpful than hurtful to a person.
No! You don't have to have faith. Question everything. Never give up looking for answers. Religion teaches us that we don't need to know answers. Then again, religion is a lie.
Not totally true. I question everything about the world around me, and have all too often come to different conclusions because of it. You say that simply because a great many people don't bother to ask these questions. But ultimately the underlying order of the universe is the pure empirical evidence that you seek. Many people who were firmly founded in their beliefs used both art and science as a way to try and understand their God.
Xhumed: Tell that to the Doctors whose clinics get fire bombed.
Once again, extremism taken to the Nth degree. God is perfect, man strives to be God...but subversion and perversion of the Word happens regularly. On the subject of abortion: T.D. Jakes is a pastor out of North Carolina and he asks a very simple sentence when the abortion issue was raised to him. It points out one of the very problems the (Christian)church as a whole has had with contradicting opinions:
"How can we continue to stand against abortion yet shun women with illegitimate children?"
EDIT: That is one of the ways MAN is inconsistent, but not GOD.
Xhumed: Tell that to the Doctors whose clinics get fire bombed.
How many times has that happened (i think the last one was 2004, and even in that there was barely any damage done, and no one was hurt)-- and I think they are hardly the same, many of these clinics in the 1970's allowed partial birth abortion, and i don't really care what your view on abortion is that IS just plane wrong. Personally I think abortions should be halted until a clear definition of life can be created.
I think the point being made was it's difficult to imagine all these things happening at the same time purely by chance. It's an argument made by proponents of intelligent design... The lottery is done by chance, for sure, but on a far smaller scale, IMO.