Yes |
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5.9% (37) |
No |
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94.1% (588) |
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Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2876 Joined: 21 Aug 2008     |
Actually... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodynia#Types
That animal wouldn't survive to even 10% of its normal life expectancy though. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1011 Joined: 1 Dec 2007     |
So your entire post was a poorly-thought-out nitpick? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1126 Joined: 17 Jun 2008     |
You're comparing something that is harmful some of the time to something that is harmful all of the time. There are no cases where the cow gives consent. One always ends in death, the other doesn't. The points aren't as connected as you seem to think they are.
It doesn't have a brain so it's not attributing feelings to the pain. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 145 Joined: 2 Sep 2008  | Well, we all know anyways that the only reason we don't eat humans is because it tastes lousy. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4245 Joined: 2 Dec 2007     |
Sigh. I'll end this here. A flower would open to the sun to LIVE! You now that thing that living things do to not die. Flowers have no brains! Fact! None! When they open their pettles they do that living thing (see above). I don't think it goes, No, it just does these things to live without narey a thought... cause it has no brain! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1367 Joined: 12 Sep 2007  |
I did an edit, but the thread passed me by. Plants also have pain responses, and they've been studied to some extent. Here's some interesting links. http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19980702112426data_trunc_sys.shtml Plants don't have nervous systems like we do, of course; their pain signals are sent via either purely chemical signals or electro-chemical signals without a dedicated network. And of course their pain signals have a different function. Since most plants have very limited ability to recoil from pain, the signals instead trigger the plant's defense systems, to attempt to defend itself from the cause of the pain. So rest assured that the broccoli you're crunching is screaming as loud as it can - you just can't hear it. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2876 Joined: 21 Aug 2008 |
That's only if you consider animals to enjoy the same cognitive capabilities as humans. If that's the case, I suggest burying your nose into psychology and cognitive and systems neuroscience textbooks for the next couple years before responding.
How can a cow give consent if it has no concept of consent?
Drosophila brain says hello. And does this mean it's perfectly okay to eat animals (or humans for that matter) who have had congenital insensitivity to pain genetically induced? |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 |
You cannt gage any living thing based on how you feel. Not even people. It only gets more foolish the further away from people you go. Not even a dog would go, ""My what a beautiful day! Boy am I ever so happy!" It might just wag its tail. Neither will a cow or an ant or any living thing. You are arguing with shiv on emotion. How do you gage ANY animals emotion? we can hardly do it with people |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1126 Joined: 17 Jun 2008 |
I never said I did think that, but how is killing an animal not causing it harm? If you cut off a pig's leg, it'll know about and it will be thinking "Oh my God! You just cut off my leg!"
Ok, so what does that fly have to do with plants? |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 460 Joined: 12 Sep 2008    |
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. You responded to my post which was aimed at the OP, or vegans in general. That was the post with the insects. If animals have an imaginary right to live then so do insects. and plants. Parasites also. Trematodes, ticks, mistletoe, etc. Before that you were talking about plants having feelings, which is fine, except I don't care. If I did, I wouldn't step on them. Please explain your point, because as far as I can tell you don't have one.
ok, you're obviously more knowledgeable than me. However, that link is also in regards to senses and nerves, if I read it correctly. In my imaginary scenario, such things are removed.
When breeding meat for the purpose of consumption the only required life expectancy is one that'll get the animal to its highest level of meat quantity and quality. Artificially keeping it alive and forcefeeding it is fine. |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | "Oh my God! You just cut off my leg!" Thats just it. It WONT be. Thats what YOU would think. No doubt that the pig would acknowledge it and respond to the best of its ability. So would a plant. |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | Youre Anthropomorphising |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1367 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 |
Having been around pigs more than I would like, I can guarantee you the pig will be thinking no such thing. It will be thinking "PAIN!" and "PROBLEMS WALKING!" That's about a pig's limit. They are smart and sociable for animals; they aren't people. More to the point, if it's alright to kill plants and insects because they aren't aware of it, shouldn't it also be okay to kill animals when they're asleep? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1011 Joined: 1 Dec 2007 |
You quote my post then say you are arguing with the OP. Fuck it, go be crazy on your own time. I'm getting a drink. |
Web Developer  Posts: 237 Joined: 6 Jun 2007    |
Pain is the indicator of damage and serves as a warning to the recepient. Protective measures to avoid pain are not limited to animals. For more depth, here's a nice study chock full of headache-enducing scientific terms that covers nervous systems and communication (yes, communication) in plants. So unless you're prepared to ignore the evidence, the pain line on the morally edibile scale is arbitrary. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 460 Joined: 12 Sep 2008 |
Buddy, I quoted you when talking about plants. My post with insects did NOT quote you. That one was directed at the OP. Stop mixing several distinct posts together. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 69 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Do you honestly believe that an animal is going to process information like that? An animal doesn't comprehend things, it dosen't look deeper into things, it doesn't think like a human being, so how can you be arguing that we should basically treat them like human beings, in the way that it should be a crime to kill even one? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2876 Joined: 21 Aug 2008 |
I can't think of any animals which we eat in modern society that have the cognitive capabilities to understand and possibly demand a right and consent to life. Thus, there's no harm done.
You're anthropomorphizing again.
Err, the conversation that I initiated and which you responded to (with which I responded to with the picture of a Drosophila brain) was about insects. |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | pwned? /thread? |
Web Developer Posts: 237 Joined: 6 Jun 2007 | Ok everyone, the thread is moving pretty quickly, quotes are flying back and forth, signals are getting mixed, and tempers may be getting flared. We don't need banning and probations messing up this gem of a discussion, so if you need to, take a break, go gank some n00bs online perhaps, and come back and see how things have progressed. Don't worry about instantly replying to posts, it's just not worth the extra stress. Always remember to keep things civil. |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | Dont listen to him shiv. He just wants you to give up. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1126 Joined: 17 Jun 2008 |
So the pain it feels doesn't matter simply because it's not as intelligent as us?
Well yeah, but it will still very much feel the pain and be afraid of you from then on. And it sure wouldn't be happy. I know it's not going to actually think those words.
Ahh, I overlooked that. I wasn't talking about insects, I was talking about plants, which do not have brains.
Plants feel pain, I've already admitted that. But they don't have a brain and don't have feelings attributed to the pain. For them it's just pain, it won't make them sad. Oh, and killerap85, please stop trolling, thanks. Anyways, it's almost 4 AM here, I have to get some sleep. |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 |
1)Same can be said for plants 2 and 4 relate back to emotion. again how do you gage emotion in an insect or plant?edit: or animal The troll remark is cute too, considerring that this whole thread amounts to one. That or a very naive and close minded persons view of how the world should be just like how I live my life. Starving villages? Thing of the past in my world. Let them eat cake |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 427 Joined: 5 Jul 2008 |
I agree with this man. Get some sleep people! Stop getting so personal. <.< Alright, if everyone's calmed down, I'll give my view: Not only is eating meat a natural, and morally decent thing to do; but there is really no other alternative. Everything dies; the only thing that we are doing is ending their lives a little quicker. This goes for both plants AND animals. Just because an animal can feel pain; doesn't mean that plants can't, or that they don't care. Plants just seem more alien to us than a cute fluffy puppy. |
Web Developer Posts: 237 Joined: 6 Jun 2007 |
Now we're crossing over into a poorly defined (in terms of animal response) 'emotions' area. There are more animals that don't respond in any way, shape or form that could even be mistaken as emotions than those that do. I'm not saying there aren't any; I'm saying we're only recognizing those we see as similar to our own. Insects have brains and nervous systems, but I don't think anyone attributes emotional ability to them. So having a brain and nervous system isn't a requirement (unless I'm mistaken about people attributing emotions to insects). Are we sure we know what 'emotions' look like in other forms of life? If not, how far back down the chain do we go? If one plant in the midst of others exhibits signs of failing to thrive despite favorable conditions, could it be attributable to sadness/depression? |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | "Are we sure we know what 'emotions' look like in other forms of life? If not, how far back down the chain do we go? If one plant in the midst of others exhibits signs of failing to thrive despite favorable conditions, could it be attributable to sadness/depression?" Did you see that Mythbusters where they played different types of music to different plants to see how it affected(effected(?)) the plants growth? Everything else being the same angry agresive music had detrimental effects. A sign of depression? Great episode |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 748 Joined: 23 Jan 2008 |
Really? Tell me, how many people does a lettuce alone feed? And how many people does a cow alone feed? How many plants are killed to make ONE salad? And how many hamburgers can one single cow or pig make? Yep, vegetarians in fact kill MORE life than non-vegetarians. Oh the irony. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 165 Joined: 10 Sep 2008 | The thing I don't understand about vegatarians is, while no doubt in their mind it makes sense to not kill and eat animals, you are not saving an lives by living solely on vegetables/non animal products. |
Paperboy  Posts: 37 Joined: 28 Jul 2008  | Eating meat is barbaric but it tastes so good i honestly don't care. |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | The only vegetarians I respect are ones that do it for religous reasons. More power to them I say. Everything else just amounts to some sort of psuedo intellectual/moral elitism that just isnt true. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4067 Joined: 24 Apr 2008   |
Empathy is real. Do you honestly think it begins with elitism? |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 748 Joined: 23 Jan 2008 |
Nop. If you're a vegetarian because you don't like meat, Fine. If you're a vegetarian to get on the moral high horse that you don't take life to live, that you're "death free", you're a hypocrite. Plants are alive, animals are alive, insects and bugs are alive. Ever squashed a fly? You killed something. Killed a spider? Murder. Eaten one of those vegan salads stuffed with vegetables? Mass Murder. The only difference between plants, insects and a cow or a fish is that it's easier to ignore a plant or an insect suffers. But they are very much alive, and they do die for you to eat or worst. You kill insects just because they annoy you. How barbaric is THAT? Nobody lives death free. And as I said earlier, you end up taking less life if you eat meat than you do if you eat vegetables only. |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 |
I dont think its empathy I think thats what it is often disguised as |
"Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't tie any emotions to pain without a brain. It feels pain, but it's indifferent to it."
So now youre falling back to a position on emotion. How do you gage the emotion?
A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling: the emotions of joy, sorrow, reverence, hate, and love.
How does a flower feel when it opens to the sun? If it could speak, perhaps it would be joy.