Shivari: Well the main thing is I don't think that people eating animals is right and don't really expect animals to follow the example. So if a dog is a carnivore, I don't expect it to evolve out of that somehow.
But one of the main reasons I'm a vegetarian is because I really like animals, so I naturally like having one around me (my dog). It probably seems a little selfish.
If you really like animals, why do you have a pet?
That's like saying I really like women so I keep one locked up in my house and force it to be dependent on me for its survival.
Shivari: Well the main thing is I don't think that people eating animals is right and don't really expect animals to follow the example. So if a dog is a carnivore, I don't expect it to evolve out of that somehow.
But one of the main reasons I'm a vegetarian is because I really like animals, so I naturally like having one around me (my dog). It probably seems a little selfish.
If you really like animals, why do you have a pet?
That's like saying I really like women so I keep one locked up in my house and force it to be dependent on me for its survival.
Actually, tamed animals such as dogs or cats chose their fate with humanity (or at least natural selection did). They are the certain breeds that actually enjoy living with us as company and in exchange for their love and compassion they get food and shelter. :)
Once I get an actual house I'm probably going to get myself a nice husky. My old neighbor had the most beautiful husky dog. She was a bit of a coward, it was really funny. She'd hide under the lawn chair every time I'd go to pet her. Of course I let her sniff my hand and all that and I'd start petting her. Hehe, good times.
snowplow: Anyway this thread is kind of stupid. The only argument Shivari has given against meat is "ITS MORALLY WRONG BUT I'LL BE DAMNED IF I REVEAL WHERE THESE HOLY MORALS COME FROM." "ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS BUT I'LL BE DAMNED IF I REVEAL WHERE THESE RIGHTS COME FROM"
Where they come from? They come from my mind. Morals and rights are all things made up by human society, that doesn't mean they aren't important though.
Also to all of the people saying that they're athletes so they need meat, you don't need meat to be an athlete. Carl Lewis ate vegan while in training and won 9 Olympic gold medals. It's not a necessity for you.
SuperFriendBFG: Once I get an actual house I'm probably going to get myself a nice husky. My old neighbor had the most beautiful husky dog. She was a bit of a coward, it was really funny. She'd hide under the lawn chair every time I'd go to pet her. Of course I let her sniff my hand and all that and I'd start petting her. Hehe, good times.
Sounds like one of my dog's best doggy friends. She's really afraid of a lot of things. Loud noises, large trucks like garbage trucks, really anything out of the ordinary. She's such a nice dog though, just a bit of a scaredy cat. =)
SuperFriendBFG: Actually, tamed animals such as dogs or cats chose their fate with humanity (or at least natural selection did). They are the certain breeds that actually enjoy living with us as company and in exchange for their love and compassion they get food and shelter. :)
Natural selection didn't choose the fate of dogs or cats, humans did.
Where they come from? They come from my mind. Morals and rights are all things made up by human society, that doesn't mean they aren't important though.
Exactly. Your morals are not in line with the majority of society's morals. Your morals are your own, you came to such a conclusion. However, you're questioning the morals of the rest of society, believing your own morals to be superior. You have no such authority. As you said in that quote, morals and rights are made up by humans. Humans are the final authority, there is nothing higher. When humans give themselves the "right" to kill and eat animals, then that right exists. You can question that right as you did in this thread, but that's all you can do is question it, because there is no compelling argument against eating meat. When you say "people don't have the right to kill animals" you're wrong. Dead wrong. People have the right, because they gave themselves that right. You yourself have admitted this in your post, quoted above.
Well the main thing is I don't think that people eating animals is right and don't really expect animals to follow the example. So if a dog is a carnivore, I don't expect it to evolve out of that somehow.
See, for me, the reasons that make me think that eating animals isn't right are the same reasons why I should hold my dog up to the same standards as myself: that humans aren't so different from animals.
If animals aren't expected to follow my every example, why should I treat them exactly the same way I'd treat another human?
And what exactly do you think is barbaric? Humans eating animals, or humans killing animals for food? The two aren't exactly the same question, and maybe you'll see how much your feelings differ from others depending on how you answer.
Well the main thing is I don't think that people eating animals is right and don't really expect animals to follow the example. So if a dog is a carnivore, I don't expect it to evolve out of that somehow.
See, for me, the reasons that make me think that eating animals isn't right are the same reasons why I should hold my dog up to the same standards as myself: that humans aren't so different from animals.
If animals aren't expected to follow my every example, why should I treat them exactly the same way I'd treat another human?
And what exactly do you think is barbaric? Humans eating animals, or humans killing animals for food? The two aren't exactly the same question, and maybe you'll see how much your feelings differ from others depending on how you answer.
This is exactly what I've been trying to say in this thread, but I suppose I didn't have the requisite eloquence.
Well the main thing is I don't think that people eating animals is right and don't really expect animals to follow the example. So if a dog is a carnivore, I don't expect it to evolve out of that somehow.
See, for me, the reasons that make me think that eating animals isn't right are the same reasons why I should hold my dog up to the same standards as myself: that humans aren't so different from animals.
If animals aren't expected to follow my every example, why should I treat them exactly the same way I'd treat another human?
And what exactly do you think is barbaric? Humans eating animals, or humans killing animals for food? The two aren't exactly the same question, and maybe you'll see how much your feelings differ from others depending on how you answer.
This is exactly what I've been trying to say in this thread, but I suppose I didn't have the requisite eloquence.
Thank you Cheeze_Pavilion :]
Hey! What about me and Ghostofsin?
We've been trying to say this for pages! I think i made it when pages were still in single digits, even.
SuperFriendBFG: Actually, tamed animals such as dogs or cats chose their fate with humanity (or at least natural selection did). They are the certain breeds that actually enjoy living with us as company and in exchange for their love and compassion they get food and shelter. :)
Natural selection didn't choose the fate of dogs or cats, humans did.
Evil, animal hating, barbaric humans.
No, we didn't force them. They wouldn't have been tamable if Natural Selection (or the animal in question) didn't want to be tamed.
snowplow: Exactly. Your morals are not in line with the majority of society's morals. Your morals are your own, you came to such a conclusion. However, you're questioning the morals of the rest of society, believing your own morals to be superior. You have no such authority. As you said in that quote, morals and rights are made up by humans. Humans are the final authority, there is nothing higher. When humans give themselves the "right" to kill and eat animals, then that right exists. You can question that right as you did in this thread, but that's all you can do is question it, because there is no compelling argument against eating meat. When you say "people don't have the right to kill animals" you're wrong. Dead wrong. People have the right, because they gave themselves that right. You yourself have admitted this in your post, quoted above.
It always does good to question people's morals (or lack thereof). If people are just drifting by with their beliefs (whether they are religious, on eating animals, etc.) without them being questioned, they never have to think about anything. They may never realize that maybe they were wrong about something and that they should change, it might make their lives so much better. But if they had never thought about it they would have never changed. And yes, I am allowed to exercise freedom of speech to ask people these questions.
Maybe eating meat is better in your mind. Fine. But for me, it is definitely not.
Cheeze_Pavilion: If animals aren't expected to follow my every example, why should I treat them exactly the same way I'd treat another human?
Well, that's a moral line that we're all different on. I think as humans that can think this all through and apply these morals we should treat animals better. You obviously don't.
And what exactly do you think is barbaric? Humans eating animals, or humans killing animals for food? The two aren't exactly the same question, and maybe you'll see how much your feelings differ from others depending on how you answer.
Those are both the same. The first question involves killing them (unless you put a live cow on your burger) and the second one involves eating them (you said food.)
SuperFriendBFG: No, we didn't force them. They wouldn't have been tamable if Natural Selection (or the animal in question) didn't want to be tamed.
They wouldn't have been tamable if evil, animal hating, barbaric humans weren't so barbaric and didn't tame them.
Natural selection has nothing to do with this; this is quite literally a case of unnatural selection.
Wolves would raid garbage dumps near human habitations. Wolves have a flight distance which they keep between themselves and a threatening creature. When a dump was approached by humans, some wolves would run a greater distance from the dump than others. Those that ran the shortest distance would return first, and obtain the greatest amount of food.
This set up a selective breeding situation that resulted in a strain of wolves having shorter and shorter flight distances, until they were eventually comfortable near humans, having domesticated themselves, so to speak. At that point, they were tolerated by humans, so long as they were also useful, in such ways as catching rats or driving away other predators. In time, other uses, such as hunting, were found for them.
SuperFriendBFG: This set up a selective breeding situation that resulted in a strain of wolves having shorter and shorter flight distances, until they were eventually comfortable near humans, having domesticated themselves, so to speak. At that point, they were tolerated by humans, so long as they were also useful, in such ways as catching rats or driving away other predators. In time, other uses, such as hunting, were found for them.
Cheeze_Pavilion: If animals aren't expected to follow my every example, why should I treat them exactly the same way I'd treat another human?
Well, that's a moral line that we're all different on. I think as humans that can think this all through and apply these morals we should treat animals better. You obviously don't.
Well, you think that we should treat animals with a higher level of protection. Whether that is in fact 'better' is a moral judgment.
And what exactly do you think is barbaric? Humans eating animals, or humans killing animals for food? The two aren't exactly the same question, and maybe you'll see how much your feelings differ from others depending on how you answer.
Those are both the same. The first question involves killing them (unless you put a live cow on your burger) and the second one involves eating them (you said food.)
No, they're really not. If one were to scavenge for meat, then one would be eating flesh but not killing animals. It's an important distinction that a lot of hardcore Vegans make--they're against eating animals not only because you have to kill an animal, but because they say Flesh is not Food.
It makes a big difference if we're talking about something like the ethics of Boca Burgers. Some vegetarians are just fine with substitute products that replicate meat, while some are fervently opposed.
SuperFriendBFG: This set up a selective breeding situation that resulted in a strain of wolves having shorter and shorter flight distances, until they were eventually comfortable near humans, having domesticated themselves, so to speak. At that point, they were tolerated by humans, so long as they were also useful, in such ways as catching rats or driving away other predators. In time, other uses, such as hunting, were found for them.
Exactly; it's a case of unnatural selection.
Read the first part, I edited it in. The wolves would essentially eat what was left on a carcass after it had been skinned and anything deemed edible stripped away.
Cheeze_Pavilion: It makes a big difference if we're talking about something like the ethics of Boca Burgers. Some vegetarians are just fine with substitute products that replicate meat, while some are fervently opposed.
Boca Burgers contain dairy and egg in some, while others are vegan. If I'm having a meat substitute I go with the vegan one.
Also, another little topic. A lot of you have said that if this thread were about being against animal cruelty. Well, if you're continuing to eat meat then aren't you in a way supporting those people that abuse their livestock? You can tell yourself that all of the meat you're getting was treated ethically, but in reality a good amount of it wasn't. And being a vegetarian is a way of speaking against that cruelty.
Cheeze_Pavilion: It makes a big difference if we're talking about something like the ethics of Boca Burgers. Some vegetarians are just fine with substitute products that replicate meat, while some are fervently opposed.
Boca Burgers contain dairy and egg in some, while others are vegan. If I'm having a meat substitute I go with the vegan one.
You're missing the point--for a lot of Vegans it's not just that you don't eat animal products, it's that Flesh is not Food and that therefore even vegan Boca Burgers are immoral because they imitate flesh.
Also, another little topic. A lot of you have said that if this thread were about being against animal cruelty. Well, if you're continuing to eat meat then aren't you in a way supporting those people that abuse their livestock? You can tell yourself that all of the meat you're getting was treated ethically, but in reality a good amount of it wasn't. And being a vegetarian is a way of speaking against that cruelty.
So is eating mussels/clams/oysters. I don't know exactly how 'cruel' you can treat any of those. And if you hunt/fish, you've got a lot of control over how the animals are treated.
Also, a good way of speaking against that cruelty is to eat cruelty free--in fact, it might be an even more effective way of ending that cruelty. If all ethical consumers leave the market for meat, then the industry has no reason to go cruelty free. However, if those customers keep eating meat, then maybe at some point the industry will go all cruelty free because it won't be worth it to mistreat any animals.
Cheeze_Pavilion: It makes a big difference if we're talking about something like the ethics of Boca Burgers. Some vegetarians are just fine with substitute products that replicate meat, while some are fervently opposed.
Boca Burgers contain dairy and egg in some, while others are vegan. If I'm having a meat substitute I go with the vegan one.
Also, another little topic. A lot of you have said that if this thread were about being against animal cruelty. Well, if you're continuing to eat meat then aren't you in a way supporting those people that abuse their livestock? You can tell yourself that all of the meat you're getting was treated ethically, but in reality a good amount of it wasn't. And being a vegetarian is a way of speaking against that cruelty.
Here's a quote from this article (note, not a news article, and I'm certainly not claiming it to be, but as far as I can see the sources for their facts are valid.)
Plant agriculture results each year in the mass slaughter of countless animals, including rabbits, gophers, mice, birds, snakes, and other field creatures. These animals are killed during harvesting, and in the various mechanized farming processes that produce wheat, corn, rice, soybeans, and other staples of vegan diets. And that doesn't include the countless rats and mice poisoned in grain elevators, or the animals that die from loss of habitat cleared for agricultural use.
Sigh, I left this thread last night and assumed it would die out once she got her badge, attention and validation. She's not listening to what anyone else says, she's just childishly bickered back and forth and in circles with you and continuing to do so until either everyone on the board becomes a vegan or she gets her badges.
Congrats, you're a malnourished OTT hippy with some badges, go phone PETA and tell them of your success. Make sure it's a male you contact though because it's much harder to influence someone that isn't male and 14-20 years old isn't it?
There really is no point in arguing this. The words barbaric civilized are completely subjective and therefore useless in an argument. What you guys are doing is about as effective as sending Hitler to a Bar/Bat Mitzvah in an effort to rid him of his barbaric Anti-Semetic ideals.
Albert_Wesker657: And this is still going....This should have ended 30 pages ago. Its just another meat is murder topic.
Man, I am so glad you popped in here to bump the thread like that. Really, I appreciate the gesture. So very very helpful to letting the thread die, really.
killerap85: People need to get off the girls tits for a fucking second. Her position was clarified some time ago, centering it around emotion("feeling" and "emotion" tend to be kind of confusing subjects) to anyone who truly wanted know and work towards an understanding. Even if you dont like or respect vegetarians you dont need to act like a fucking BARBARIAN about it.
And you, Eggo, any respect I might have had for you went out the door some time ago. You may know your shool work but you have a whole hell of a lot to learn about tact. Also you didnt continue the arguement on fair grounds once it was clarified that she was basing her views on emotion. Its was one thing to discuss its another to needle people.
stfu and gtfo
report away jerks
hax is serious buisness
END OF LINE
I gotta say, it kind of weakens the anti-meat argument to have this guy on your side, doesn't it?
We're at the top of the food chain, people. We're no different than another animal. Say, a crow. Crows are omnivores, they eat both meat and non-meat. They're not barbaric, are they? They're just getting by, like everyone else.
I really don't think it's ethically correct for us to be making these grand moral choices about what we eat when there are food shortages all over the world.
Taxi Driver: For what reason should I care about another being?
I don't know, why am I so nice to everyone no matter what even though I don't believe in a God? Maybe I just want to be a really nice person, I don't need a reason.
Taxi Driver: For what reason should I selfishly impose morals on amoral beings?
Who are we to decide that they have no right to live though?
If you really like animals, why do you have a pet?
That's like saying I really like women so I keep one locked up in my house and force it to be dependent on me for its survival.