Yahtzee's fans are annoying, and should stop visiting The Escapist right away. Have I got your attention yet?

First, allow me this: I do not want to talk about how much I do or do not like Yahtzee himself or his creations, nor do I want to talk about how old or new I am to The Escapist as a flimsy basis for my opinions of either of them. Rather, I want to talk about Yahtzee, his fanbase, and The Escapist in general, and, in particular, a number generated by Robin Dunbar.

Dunbar's Number is 150. Supposedly, a community exceeding 150 individuals will begin to experience a social breakdown, as any given person will not be able to maintain a meaningful relationship with more than 150 people at a time. A cynical paraphrasing for our purposes might be: the phenomenon of popularity ruins the original feel of the popular thing. This is not an especially original conclusion, but it is interesting to garner from Dunbar's Number in the context of Zero Punctuation. Because Yahtzee's identity is closely tied to Zero Punctuation, and because he remains relatively in touch with his fans through emai--and the discussion threads, to a lesser extent--despite his growing popularity, we can claim that his relationship to his fanbase is subject to Dunbar's Number.

From there, we can safely assume that Yahtzee's fanbase exceeds Dunbar's Number. Even if we assumed that the only people that actually watched Yahtzee's reviews were those that posted in the weekly discussion thread in the Featured Articles section, that number consistently exceeds 150. Moreover, an insignificant proportion of posters appear to reply more than once, so any effect on that number by repeat posters is probably negligible, except in extreme scenarios such as drawn-out flame wars. All the same, we can include a considerable chunk of the posts in a given discussion thread as repeat postings and still come out greater than 150. Overall, it is a largely meaningless exercise since any dissenter would be hard pressed to find proof that Yahtzee's popularity is directly represented by a given discussion thread, instead of proportionally represented. That's how popularity tends to work as it approaches a larger scale--more people watch, and an increasingly smaller fraction of those people are inspired enough to directly comment in one way or another.

In effect, the more popular Yahtzee becomes, the more people clamor over his greatness. Because the community is so large, Yahtzee cannot personally and socially relate to his fans as people that respect his work. In this particular scenario, it would seems to breed contempt for his fanbase on Yahtzee's part, and greater instances of "fanboy" behavior on the fans' part as they continue to seek his recognition.

The grossest transgression so far is the comments under The Escapist's entry for the Webby People's Awards. Hundreds of comments slate posters' votes as "just for Yahtzee." Why bother? Why broadcast your willful disregard for the site that has given a home to Yahtzee, upon whom you gladly heap bucketloads of praise and entirely heterosexual love and your first-born child? Why the passive-aggressive disdain for a gaming site that just might intimidate you with its advanced commentary and critique of the world around us through the lens of a still-maturing media form? It smacks of intentional ignorance, almost as if these fans are afraid that there might be something better or more thought-provoking in The Escapist--or anywhere else, for that matter.

If we are to believe that Dunbar's Number applies here, there is enough evidence to suggest that Yahtzee has become "too popular" to maintain a mutually respectful relationship with his fanbase. In return, his fans are all too willing to publicly boast about their dedication to Yahtzee, and only Yahtzee, at the expense of contemplating the complex critical thought intrinsic to The Escapist's featured articles.

What does this mean for the guilty party? It means that they, as relatively normal people, are making asses of themselves on the internet, and the quickest way for them to redeem themselves is to stop posting. Unfortunately, idiocy on the internet can not always be expunged. In this case, it is not the most relevant concern.

All of this should not really be pinned on the fans and the indiscretions in their behavior. After all, I have cast them as little more than a variable in an equation that serves my purpose of expressing an opinion about The Escapist as a whole, so why focus on them? It is not Yahtzee's fault that his humor attracts a large audience, and his fans are not to be blamed for enjoying his reviews. I would not do something like suggest that the Zero Punctuation discussion threads ought to be scrapped, because that would only treat a symptom of a fundamental alteration in how The Escapist has been presenting itself as a publication.

The feature pieces that originally comprised the entirety of The Escapist have clearly been overshadowed by Zero Punctuation. For his part, Yahtzee has undoubtedly brought more people to The Escapist--I'm sure that some of those people now read the articles, and I'm sure that some of those people would not have come across The Escapist without Yahtzee's presence and popularity. However, I am certain that the amount of visitors that go to the site merely to watch Yahtzee has grown exponentially in relation to the initial focus on his reviews. Perhaps more people now look to The Escapist for a weekly dose of Zero Punctuation instead of the thoughtful articles the magazine was once centered around.

To say that Yahtzee's position in the repertoire of The Escapist is degrading the quality of the magazine would be entirely unfounded. On the other hand, it is the case that Zero Punctuation has taken up the mantle as the linchpin of the entire site. As much as the editors may say to the contrary--and as much inside information as they may have over my external vantage point--the entirety of The Escapist has become glossed over by Yahtzee's sheen. With this in mind, I pose the following questions to the leadership and editorship of The Escapist: are you sure of where you are going as a publication, and as an influence on the opinions of others? How does Yahtzee play into the future of The Escapist, and if you are not sure, then are you prepared to face the possibility that you are using him as a placeholder for your popularity while you figure something else out? Most importantly, how do you want The Escapist to be known? Are you comfortable with "the home of Zero Punctuation" being the first thing that comes to mind when The Escapist is mentioned, if it means more page views for the site?

Come, all ye Yahtzee fans, regular readers, editors. Have at me.

Too long, got bored, grow up!

But seriously, I think you should give Our Lord & Saviour, Adonis Sexual Warlord that He is Yahtzee some credit, his down to earth, don't care attitude will protect him from the hubris that being popular brings. And as for the pandering, fanboy cattle that surround/spam him...fuck em!

Sorry, your post does deserve more but me not as klever as u!

This is what you sound like.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/zeonzumdeikun/BAWWW.jpg

Well, brevity is always a virtue on the internet.

You're saying that because Yahtzee has hit internet popularity he will now inevitably do the celebrity shuffle and start hating his fans, who will in turn grow more fervent in their worship of him and become a mindless mob. They, in turn, will come to represent 'The Escapist' since that's where Yahtzee is posted. Since internet celebrities make the Titanic look reliable, you're saying the screaming mob are inevitably going to turn this place into a cultural wasteland or worse, have 'The Escapist' come to symbolize one.

I dunno...judging by the line-up for submissions in the upcoming months, the ban hammer, and the incessant ADD of people these days, I think the storm will stabilize. Or at least strike equilibrium. They still aren't doing ZOMFG Smash Brothers updates, so they are still going to be light year ahead of any other gaming magazine.

Hell, who knows? Like Vonnegut said, so it goes.

*edit* I'm charmed to see the posters above just proved your point.

Occam's Razor my friend, it was needed.

Fangface74:
Occam's Razor my friend, it was needed.

It's cool man, I think you're right. I just hate it when people make fun of someone on the internet for trying to be too intellectual. If I had to choose between pretentiousness and the usual tribal screamings of the digital world...sign me up for pretentiousness.

Good grief, Yahtzee might start hating people? Surely not! Damn, and I was so enjoying the days when he loved every single one of his fans, taking the time and effort to get to know each and every one personally.

Wait, hang on...

Yahtzee's always hated everyone, and when the jabbering hordes try to migrate onto the escapist forums proper, we nobble them with a big hammer. No problems.

L.B. Jeffries:
I dunno...judging by the line-up for submissions in the upcoming months, the ban hammer, and the incessant ADD of people these days, I think the storm will stabilize. Or at least strike equilibrium. They still aren't doing ZOMFG Smash Brothers updates, so they are still going to be light year ahead of any other gaming magazine.

Hell, who knows? Like Vonnegut said, so it goes.

We can hope so. I would not actively wish any ill-being upon The Escapist for continuing to host Yahtzee, and as much as I detest shrill alarmism, it is sometimes necessary to bring things into perspective by violating a few logical rules (like the aforementioned Occam's Razor--which I actually had not heard of before, and so thank Fangface74 for bringing it to my attention).

And as much as I would like to subscribe to Vonnegut's particular brand of resignation, I remember that "so it goes" chiefly concerns death--and I hope against all hope it never comes to that for The Escapist.

The internet by definition provides a layer of serperation & isolation from those your communicating with whether it be 1 or a million of them. That said, I see where you are coming from & agree in princple. I do hope, however, that The Escapist never stops giving each ZP contribution a discussion thread. Imagine what a state the escapists forum would be in atm if the Smash Brothers Brawl review fallout didnt have one self contained box for the mice to run around in.

Singing Gremlin:
Good grief, Yahtzee might start hating people? Surely not! Damn, and I was so enjoying the days when he loved every single one of his fans, taking the time and effort to get to know each and every one personally.

Wait, hang on...

Yahtzee's always hated everyone, and when the jabbering hordes try to migrate onto the escapist forums proper, we nobble them with a big hammer. No problems.

I thought the same thing when reading.

Yahtzee is out of touch because, well he was never in touch. I personally came here for Yahtzee, but like the site for other things. I'm sure others are the same, that's why the forums aren't void of live until Thursday. I agree popularity can ruin most things, but when the contact to begin with was minimal should "Dunbar's number" (which I like the idea of by the way) be raised?

I said I love Dunbar's number, but only the idea, in practice it would mean the more recent the video the worse it is correct? But I like his condemned video more than some of his older one's, and at that time we were completely past the 150 mark.

Sorry but I can't let this go, Incandescence (where is Gigantor? we need to give this guy a better nickname) Where are you coming from with this idea? You haven't been here long so is it wise to start making theory's and what is in essence a promise of doom?

Well, you've stretched the traditional way to interpret Dunbar's number quite a bit. Dunbar's number usually applies to the size of tight-knit social groups, a measure of how many people can effectively 'inter-relate' before a larger group needs to break down into smaller groups by necessity. If you want to use your interpretation, we soared past that number of regular readers when our second issue was released, back in 2005. We never claimed to relate to everyone personally though - we're broadcasting the things we like into the ether, and hopefully other people like it too.

As for your questions, we're happy to be another, different voice adding to the discussion about games regardless of why any particular reader visits. So in that regard, sure, we're fine with someone saying we're the home of Zero Punctuation, just as we were happy being the home of Shoot Club, or OMG Girlz Don't Exist on teh Intarweb!1 or Death to the Games Industry when those were published. What we like the best is when people come in for a popular piece of content, notice we do a lot more, and stick around - and that has happened with Zero Punctuation just as much as anything else.

We're going to keep doing our weekly issues, which we've also expanded into non-issue regular features (like Game Design Friday, Inside Job, and Smile and Nod). We'll also keep doing video - there's some new ones on the way. And we have some ideas in progress for some more 'special events' like March Mayhem.

We've evolved a lot since our first release - I don't think there's any reason to expect that the success (or lack thereof) of any particular thing we do changes our goal.

props to virgil, if you want to complain about things being popular you have problems, anyway you spin it, it's been done before, if Yahtzee's a preacher then there are preachers who have been around before that have had larger audiences, but all he really does is provide a product, J.K. Rowling's last book was just as good as her first, if people start loving a snadwich shop, it doesn't turn shitty it becomes a franchise giving it more money, so it can better explore a culinary art giving a wider choice of sandwiches, same thing applies to Yahtzee

those articles were both real good reads. Not that the once that have been in the mag since I arrived here havent been good reads too (though they are, generally, shorter)

As for beating this dead horse some more: The rule seems to be that as Zero Punctuation has increased in popularity it has increased in quality. But simularly, as with all things internet, as the product increases in popularity the "quality" of what the product attracts decreases, at least in the eyes of those who were there before the percieved line becomes visibly crossed.

I'll admit i was first attracted to this site for ZP, but since then I have really grown to like the articles and forums. I make it a point to read as much as I can whenever a new issue comes out.

I came because of Yahtzee, and stay 'cos of the forums. Oh, and don't worry 'bout the trolls. Our fortifications can hold them off for a little while, then the ol' ban hammer comes into play.

- A procrastinator

Incandescence:
Strange and intellectual (SP?) ramblings of the best laid plans, by either a cynic with questionable sanity, or a genious, I'll leave him to define it... Wink.

It's the fear we all here have some times. That one day this will become just another website filled with screaming fanatics and twelve years olds with the intelligence of an autistic punch drunk mobster weasel. But, we have scrutinizing moderaters with strong, clear heads. And as long as we maintain our own sanity, we will continue to make the site a grand place indeed.
It is true however that Mr. Croshaw is "out of touch" with his fan base, but from what I have seen he started with the intetion of not being in touch with such a group. There are threads set for his discussion and fanboy praise/hatred, so any threats are contained. And when the threat of contamination arises, there is always the mighty hammer in the sky.
Rest assured child of the WWWyzzzard (heh, Aqua Teen), that this will not be a website so easily lost as long as moderaters and the more mature users remain to defend it.

You raise some interesting questions. Also, thank you for introducing me to the concept of Dunbar's Number.

I admit to being one of those folks who came here just for the yellow screen, the British guy and the Imp, and I don't really know what the site was, or rather, is. I think I'll read one of your articles, see if they really are as intellectual as you say. I hope they are, every other damn gaming site reads like a Halo 3 multiplayer lobby.

--Cball

I'm not sure the issue is over the current community of the Escapist. The most interesting comments I took from Incandescence's post were what he said at the end about the marketing direction of the site henceforth; the community is clearly fairly healthy at the moment (impressively so for such a large forum), and if the quality of the Escapist's other articles has fallen it can't have fallen far as the recent issues - the ones I've read since starting to visit the site for my ZP fix - have been excellent. If I were the Escapist's editors, I'd be beginning to worry about becoming known as 'That site wot hosts Zero Punctuation' and therefore turning away the kind of intellectually astute people who can uphold the strengths of the community. The state of the community and its image to the rest of the internet aren't necessarily the same thing, even if it's always a good idea to keep them as similar as possible.

And, in regard to people complaining about the length of Incandescence's post? If he'd just popped up with 'The Escapist's hosting of ZP is going to send it to hell and the community is doomed', he'd have been banned and derided. Surely it's better if people ramble a little bit while explaining themselves than not explain themselves at all? (And if you think he was rambling a lot, try reading the philosophy books stacked on my desk at the moment; I have upwards of a thousand pages of four or five different people all saying the same three or four things...)

cball11:
You raise some interesting questions. Also, thank you for introducing me to the concept of Dunbar's Number.

I admit to being one of those folks who came here just for the yellow screen, the British guy and the Imp, and I don't really know what the site was, or rather, is. I think I'll read one of your articles, see if they really are as intellectual as you say. I hope they are, every other damn gaming site reads like a Halo 3 multiplayer lobby.

--Cball

You didn't just say Mr.Croshaw was Brittish did you? Please tell me you didn't....

There was a time in The Escapist's history when the reader discussions were guaranteed to be articulate and insightful. It was as if the site was unattractive to the kewl doods. In fact, the forums (remember when it was called The Lounge?) were nearly as interesting and rewarding as the articles themselves. It truly did feel like a tight knit group.

I must admit, things have changed pretty significantly with Yahtzee's presence here, but I can't fault him or The Escapist for being popular. Actually, I have to commend the administration for keeping tabs on the posts and continuously banning the bad apples. Seriously, the site is amazing in that regard and I know The Escapist realizes the importance behind that watchful eye. I definitely appreciate it... though they could be a bit more liberal with that hammer. ;-)

I do miss the old magazine layout though, as much as it pained the staff to construct. I can't let it go... I'm sorry. ;-)

ummm... 3 things. What's your point, What are you talking about, and Who cares?

TheNecroswanson:

cball11:
You raise some interesting questions. Also, thank you for introducing me to the concept of Dunbar's Number.

I admit to being one of those folks who came here just for the yellow screen, the British guy and the Imp, and I don't really know what the site was, or rather, is. I think I'll read one of your articles, see if they really are as intellectual as you say. I hope they are, every other damn gaming site reads like a Halo 3 multiplayer lobby.

--Cball

You didn't just say Mr.Croshaw was Brittish did you? Please tell me you didn't....

Well, he IS British. It says right under the videos.

TheNecroswanson:
You didn't just say Mr.Croshaw was Brittish did you? Please tell me you didn't....

An easy mistake to make Necoroswanson, as Yahtzee was born in Britain. Though, it would be nice that people acknowledge he's currently living in Australia. Especially when he says it himself, in ZP.

- A procrastinator

I was first introduced to the Escapist by Zero Punctuation. However unlike many other people I didn't start posting in the comments section for the Zero Punctuation videos but instead started posting in the Gamming Section. Spreading my opinions to other users and absorbing their opinions. Then I moved onto off topic as a place to "hang out" amd just talk to other people.

Thats my story.

Anyway when I joined it seemed to be on the verge of becoming what it is now. I think I caught a glimpse of what Echolocating is describing in the sense of Article discussion and intelligent forum topics/discussion. I'm notsure what to think of this. The Escapist still has very good forums but it could be better.

Virgil,

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you've pointed out some of the failings in my interpretation of Dunbar's Number, and some of Cousin_IT's commentary has strengthened those points.

I can't fully rationalize using Dunbar's Number to its greatest degree, considering that you are entirely right in that it was initially designed around tightly knit communities, and Cousin_IT is correct in pointing out how the extra layer to interaction that the internet provides muddles such real-world concepts as Dunbar's Number. However, I felt that Zero Punctuation's premise and popularity were constructed strongly enough around Yahtzee's personality to warrant a comparison. Unlike the majority of the authors for The Escapist's featured articles, Yahtzee has put out enough consistent material that prominently features his name--in style and signature--that regular viewers are going to find themselves relating to Yahtzee as an identifiable personality. So I feel there is still some relevance there.

Of course, thank you for directly answering the questions I posed. Though, I would have been just as happy if they had been taken rhetorically and instead kept somewhere in the back of someone's mind as a reminder with a particularly sharp needle. I don't entirely agree with the pairing of Yahtzee with the Shoot Club series or the two articles you cited--they are all composed of pure, undeniable excellence, by the way--as I believe Zero Punctuation is an entirely different creature with a greater capacity to influence the direction of The Escapist. I suppose my greatest worry is that The Escapist is becoming increasingly reliant on Zero Punctuation. But again, that is just the unfounded anxiety of an outsider with an opinion and few hard facts to back it up.

Anyway, to suggest possible answers to a few general discontentments that seem to be floating around in here:

First, I don't necessarily believe wholeheartedly in a doomsday scenario in which The Escapist is overrun by meme-gargling Yahtzee fanboys and its position as a bastion of insightful commentary irreconcilably lost--a scenario my original point does not immediately elicit. However, if my ideas seem extreme and unfounded, that is understandable. I saw an important potential point of contention that was not being addressed, and there are few better ways of rapidly bringing such a neglected perspective into the light than making declarations that appear extreme and unfounded. But, some of you are talking and thinking about it now, so I am happy. Others are consciously choosing not to by continuing to feign ignorance, and I am not surprised.

Second, I would not go so far as to say Yahtzee's attitude toward his fans ever approximated their attitude towards him, for such a magical starting point clearly never existed. Then again, I largely avoided characterizing Yahtzee himself, so I feel thankfully free of the charge that I made any judgment call on how he has acted or should act.

Lastly, I understand that I talk a lot. Maybe I am too verbose. I believe weridaljedifan2 sums it up well:

weirdaljedifan2:
ummm... 3 things. What's your point, What are you talking about, and Who cares?

And I will respond in kind for the impatient, using no original material whatsoever.

1. What's your point?

Incandescence:
I pose the following questions to the leadership and editorship of The Escapist: are you sure of where you are going as a publication, and as an influence on the opinions of others? How does Yahtzee play into the future of The Escapist, and if you are not sure, then are you prepared to face the possibility that you are using him as a placeholder for your popularity while you figure something else out? Most importantly, how do you want The Escapist to be known? Are you comfortable with "the home of Zero Punctuation" being the first thing that comes to mind when The Escapist is mentioned, if it means more page views for the site?

2. What are you talking about?

Incandescence:
I want to talk about Yahtzee, his fanbase, and The Escapist in general, and, in particular, a number generated by Robin Dunbar.

3. Who cares?

Incandescence:
Yahtzee fans, regular readers, editors.

I feel this would be best suited for the Off Topic section on the forums as it is not a review, more a statement.

weirdaljedifan2 is a prefect example of Incandescence point. I will let what weirdaljedifan2 said himself describe why he is an example.

Incandescence, I get what you're trying to say. While, yes, the trolls are knocking on our doorstep right now, we've kept them back. And, I think, due to the ever-vigilance of the mods, and most of the posters themselves, we'll continue to keep them back. Maybe I'm being too optimistic. Maybe not. Only time will tell.

Regardless, I want to say that you've written well. It was a nice read. Keep at it.

- A procrastinator

Edit: [geekness] And I will go down; breath my last, fighting the troll hordes. Don't worry 'bout that. [/geekness]