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Poll: Final 4: Valve vs. Harmonix


Valve vs. Harmonix
Valve
48% (170)
48% (170)
Harmonix
52% (184)
52% (184)
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176)   7 Apr 2008 12:22
ELAzalin
BANNED
Posts: 72
Joined: 16 Jun 2007

JakubK666:

ELAzalin:

My kids will not be playing FPS games under my roof for this very reason. It's not really healthy and proper.

So you will just let 8 year olds play MMO's instead? Like that's any safer for them(or the community?). Hypocrite.

You are the definition of a tool.

I don't believe there is MMO that I feel comfortable letting an 8 year old. He can read a book, go play some sports, or do something then sit down in front of the flickering screen.

177)   7 Apr 2008 12:29
thedrop2zer0
Copy Clerk
Posts: 100
Joined: 17 Dec 2007

ELAzalin:
You are the definition of a tool.

If I were to say what you are the definition of, I would be banned from this site.

178)   7 Apr 2008 12:50
Delmar Wynn
Web Developer
Posts: 2315
Joined: 12 Nov 2002

The Sorrow:

Well, if it can keep 10 million subscribers and be going strong after four years, I consider it good.
Mediocre gameplay? I quit WoW (twice), but that sounds like an opinion to me.
Blizzard currently has what are considered by the general gaming community the gold standards for MMO's (WoW), Strategy titles (Starcraft), and Action-RPGs (Diablo I-II).

According to Gamestats, HL2 is the eigth highest-rated game of all time, and the Orange Box the fifth. PC Gamer have HL2 98%, an honor given to only two other games (Alpha Centauri before, Crysis later).

Lack of Technical strength does not mean it is not an achievment. Why do we still love old 16-bit titles if graphics are so important? Starcraft is still practically the national sport of Korea, and even then it wasn't too great a looker.

So what now, Mr. Condescending Developer? I have unleashed the fanboy's greatest enemy: logic.

10 million lemmings does not necessary mean the game is good. Just mindless.
Diabo I - Good
Diablo II - Bad
Starcraft - Good (and last I checked I am in America, not Korea so I will stick to our national sport of Baseball (some say Football)). I can tell you about many other games that Korea love just as much, but most people would rather stick their eye out with a sharp stick than play.
Warcraft I - ok game, not the best
Warcraft II - Good
Warcraft III - somewhat nicer graphics, but just a regurgitation of Warcraft II, especially after making the community wait so long for it.

So I noticed that you skipped Half-Life and only mentioned Half-Life 2. I would dare make the assumption that either your forgetting this minor failure of a game or you need do more research for you skills of logic.

-Mr. Condescending Developer

179)   7 Apr 2008 13:15
ELAzalin
BANNED
Posts: 72
Joined: 16 Jun 2007

FlannelJacket:

ELAzalin:
PaRappa the Rapper
UmJammer Lammy
Beatmania
Dance Dance Revolution

Those games aren't by Harmonix. Dance Dance Revolution and Beatmania are made by Bemani, and PaRappa/Lammy are done by Sony.

I'm not a huge FPS fan, although I will occasionally play Halo 3 with some friends. Aside from that, I haven't played many FPS games simply because of what has been said that they're (for the most part) all pretty similar. Portal isn't the same as others though. It's not completely revolutionary or anything, but it's definitely not the same as every other FPS right now. (WWII/Space Marines)

My vote goes to Harmonix though, because while Valve knows how to make a good, high quality game, Harmonix completely gave a dying niche genre a HUGE boost topping that of when DDR exploded into the gaming scene.

You might actually want to check http://www.harmonixmusic.com/guitarhero.html Offical site as what I stated is true. What you state is well false.

180)   7 Apr 2008 13:19
ELAzalin
BANNED
Posts: 72
Joined: 16 Jun 2007

The Big OT:

ELAzalin:

You only think HMX did Guitar Hero?

Lets educate you

Rock Band
Guitar Hero
Guitar Hero Encore: Rocks the '80s
Guitar Hero II
Phase
Karaoke Revolution (Volume 1, Volume 2, and Volume 3)
CMT Presents: Karaoke Revolution Country
Amplitude
EyeToy:Antigrav
Frequency
The Axe
PaRappa the Rapper
UmJammer Lammy
Beatmania
Dance Dance Revolution

When your owner is Viacom and the Parent is MTV you pretty much know what titles and genre you will be in.

Let the counter education begin:

Rock Band - Correct! You win a cookie!
Guitar Hero - Correct! You win a cookie! (Breakout game!)
Guitar Hero Encore: Rocks the '80s - Correct! You win a cookie! (Addendum to the breakout game, new songs...same interface...hey wait same game...still new licensed songs...)
Guitar Hero II - Correct! You win a cookie! (Minor innovation over the addendum to the breakout game.)
Phase - Correct! You win a cookie! (iPod game that like 53 people have downloaded - good find.)
Karaoke Revolution (Volume 1, Volume 2, and Volume 3)- - Correct! You win a cookie!
CMT Presents: Karaoke Revolution Country - Correct! You win a cookie!
Amplitude - Correct! You win a cookie! (Kinda neat...)
EyeToy:Antigrav - Correct! You win a cookie! (Did anyone really use the eyetoy?)
Frequency - Correct! You win a cookie! (Innovative and super cool)
The Axe - Correct! You win a cookie...though the number of people that know about The Axe Music system is likely very low. (Software developed to help arrange and re-arrange previously recorded music...originally built to support The Mr. Holland's Opus foundation...it was pretty damn impressive for the time.

That is where the Harmonix list ends. 13 published titles.

PaRappa the Rapper - No cookie for you! NaOn-Sha was the developer they are from Japan.
UmJammer Lammy - No cookie for you! NaNaOn-Sha was the developer on this one too.
Beatmania - No Cookie for you! Koji Okamoto and a team of developers made this one for Konamk...in Japan...where rhythm games have been popular a lot longer than here in the West.
Dance Dance Revolution - No cookie for you again...Konami strikes again...from Japan. Where rhythm games were born.

Not taking anything away from Harmonix, because I find them to be one of the more innovative studios out there, but the level of innovation from game to game between GH-GH2 and Rock Band is minimal. Their earlier games like Amplitude and Frequency were amazing and truly defined them as a company. GH was a fantastic refinement and finally a commercial hit the size of which a studio looking to break onto the mainstage needs. Rock Band was an impressive achievement for bringing it all together and providing a near to perfect drum simulator. But in looking at the GH - 80's and GH2 titles there was little innovation, so we should call that iteration. Do we really need to call out anything about the KR Vols. 1-3 +CMT the art was different and the songs were different...other than that...not much.

Frequency and Amplitude are great! The Axe was very cool for what it did - bringing music to people with no musical ability all on a joystick or mouse...

Their rhythm stuff is based on previously existing titles out of Japan. This does not make them tracers - but it might take some of that lusterific glory off of their highly polished tushy in this post and poll.

Now let's look at Valve. Nearing 12 years in the industry. Re-defined shooters with Half-life. This was not Duke Nuke 'em or Doom or Quake this was something new and very different it was the second in a line of real strong story-telling within the FPS space. In addition to the story-telling, Half-life married puzzles and platformer type game play to the FPS. It had the horror elements of System Shock but also introduced something unique in a protagonist that was an everyman. Gordon Freeman was something special - if you have never played the game...or refuse to because you hate shooters or blah, blah, blah you should really turn in your gamer credentials. You are doing us all a disservice by pretending that you are a gamer. HL was innovative to the nTH degree and was polished, accessible, difficult and brilliant.

Three expansions: Opposing Force (brilliant retelling of the Half-Life story), Blue-shift another brilliant retelling, and Decay the last alternative perspective of the story. Now, none of these were developed directly by Valve, but they certainly had oversight.

Counter-strike (+2 version, one a single-player release for Xbox, the other Source) and Day of Defeat (+1 for Source) - arguably the best mods created for a game, ever! - initial variations were developed by folks who were modding but eventually brought into Valve. We'll give valve credit for the 3 bonus versions.

TFC and DMC (Team Fortress Classic - squad based combat that used real tactics in an FPS and Deathmatch Classic - gibfest) were both in house at Valve and both were great. After that the mods released through the the initial game and the modding community are pretty impressive a brand new little petri dish of culture.

Source - the new engine for HL 2 used for some other games and is a moderately accessible tool. The Unreal engine might be better...but this is of little importance.

Half-life 2 took all the lessons of HL1 and the subsequent launches and improved upon them, innovating where it needed to and used a physics engine like no one had done before. Again...if you have never played this game - you should. Two episodes later, both by Valve, and a consistent story running for 2+ decades of game time. That is Half-life, so far.

Add Portal to this, one of the best games of 2007. A perfect blend of humor, irony, fun, puzzle-gaming and brilliant writing. Is it for everyone...no, but it is near to perfect.

Add TF2 and then Steam and all the other games published by valve...actually no...let's just count what we have here.

13 products. Tale of the tape is darn close here.

I had to go with Valve. Gordon Freeman changed the industry. Portal introduced the world to GLADoS, guns that don't kill - GLADoS does, companion cubes, and re-introduced to the world to cake and Jonathon Coulton who's Code Monkey song is something of an anthem amongst comp. engineers with the thankless task of making these games. Not to mention the introduction of Aperture Science.

You may not like shooter and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am a gamer. I tend to look at all games and play as many as I can to draw conclusions. I may suck at shooters - I'm not great at them - but that does not mean I dismiss them out of hand. There are some that do suck. Seriously, there are some nasty games out there, but to dismiss all that Valve has done for the industry is folly.

Harmonix is great, but their innovative games will never get the commercial success of their rhythm stuff and that is a sad fact.

Valve just makes quality games and is writing one of the most intense story-lines to move through a game series ever.

Valve should win. No contest.

I just have to correct your misquotes

http://www.harmonixmusic.com/guitarhero.html states from the source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonix (I don't like quoting this as a source - but in this case it works).

181)   7 Apr 2008 13:50
Necrohydra
Muckraker
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 Jan 2008

Anton P. Nym:
To those looking for the vote buttons at the top of the screen, if you can't see the option to vote I suspect the time's run out for this round of voting.

Colour me surprised; I thought the Valve-olators would walk away with the Big Enchillada as the forums were so heavily into the Steam, and yet Harmonix squeeks past with an 11th-hour rally.

Now, let's see both sides handle this gracefully please.

-- Steve

Yeah, I called valve to win it right at the beginning, given all the love it gets at these forums. Quite a surprise, quite a surprise. Heh, shouldn't have assumed anything.

182)   7 Apr 2008 18:55
Crap_haT
Pulitzer Laureate
Posts: 710
Joined: 9 Jan 2008

irishdelinquent:

Crap_haT:

CaptainFeral:

stinkypitz:
Valve should be winning this.

But they aren't.
Might be because of that lame Half-Life series. ...Or the fact they've never actually made a good game.

Am I allowed to hate the fuck out of you yet?

Yes, Yes you are. And I am allowed to join you.

To quote Penny Arcade, "I wish I could hate you to death!"

Now my hate is justified. FUCK YOU CaptainFeral!

183)   7 Apr 2008 18:59
Crap_haT
Pulitzer Laureate
Posts: 710
Joined: 9 Jan 2008

thedrop2zer0:

ELAzalin:
You are the definition of a tool.

If I were to say what you are the definition of, I would be banned from this site.

Banned from the fourm and OOOOO, this crackah owned your bitch ass! (I'm white, don't take offence).

184)   7 Apr 2008 23:53
The Sorrow
Muckraker
Posts: 337
Joined: 27 Jan 2008

Delmar Wynn:

The Sorrow:

Well, if it can keep 10 million subscribers and be going strong after four years, I consider it good.
Mediocre gameplay? I quit WoW (twice), but that sounds like an opinion to me.
Blizzard currently has what are considered by the general gaming community the gold standards for MMO's (WoW), Strategy titles (Starcraft), and Action-RPGs (Diablo I-II).

According to Gamestats, HL2 is the eigth highest-rated game of all time, and the Orange Box the fifth. PC Gamer have HL2 98%, an honor given to only two other games (Alpha Centauri before, Crysis later).

Lack of Technical strength does not mean it is not an achievment. Why do we still love old 16-bit titles if graphics are so important? Starcraft is still practically the national sport of Korea, and even then it wasn't too great a looker.

So what now, Mr. Condescending Developer? I have unleashed the fanboy's greatest enemy: logic.

10 million lemmings does not necessary mean the game is good. Just mindless.
Diabo I - Good
Diablo II - Bad
Starcraft - Good (and last I checked I am in America, not Korea so I will stick to our national sport of Baseball (some say Football)). I can tell you about many other games that Korea love just as much, but most people would rather stick their eye out with a sharp stick than play.
Warcraft I - ok game, not the best
Warcraft II - Good
Warcraft III - somewhat nicer graphics, but just a regurgitation of Warcraft II, especially after making the community wait so long for it.

So I noticed that you skipped Half-Life and only mentioned Half-Life 2. I would dare make the assumption that either your forgetting this minor failure of a game or you need do more research for you skills of logic.

-Mr. Condescending Developer

A worthy opponent! Excellent!

All that seems to matter to the general voters are the most recent games, in this case HL2, its Episodes, and the Orange Box. Acheron's Call received few mentions, and HMX's earlier games even fewer.

Though I admit, the sequel seemed more important than the original, though its 9.6/10 average review score from the press makes it hard for me to deem it a failure, even minor.

Blizzard, while not the best developer in your opinion, is one of the few developers that can consistently get away with a "When-it's-done" release date, even though it has a publisher. Many of LOTRO's elements were taken from WOW, but added to Middle-Earth to seem more innovative.

Whether or not you agree, Valve has heavily influenced the games industry. Some of the greatest online shooters (CS, Day of Defeat) wouldn't exist without Half-Life.

In all likelihood, I am wrong, just as much as I believe you are wrong. Shall we continue to make it a battle, or just agree to disagree?

185)   8 Apr 2008 10:00
Lord Krunk
Beat Writer
Posts: 168
Joined: 3 Mar 2008

NARRAT0R:
Harmonix fanboys and all other fanboys are a disease on this website. If Valve loses to Harmonix I will never come back here.

Hear, Hear!

186)   9 Apr 2008 01:32
TJ_P
Anonymous Source
Posts: 4
Joined: 8 Apr 2008

Harmonix Shouldn't have won..

At least Valve did the right thing.

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