wow i think this has the most replies ive seen yet O_o
XD ive had a thought, you can knock out kajima the same why im planning to kill george bush, with a pillow fight, but you fill your pillow with rocks, but i dont have the x files box set so can i lend that off someone please?

agerdemon:

tooktook:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.

Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!

No, I'm not comparing Yahtzee to Hitler. I was joking. I do apologize. My humor seems to be lost on a lot of people. The idea of comparing Yahtzee to Hitler is so ridiculous I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Come on, did you honestly think I was being serious? I have enough faith in humanity to believe no-one would make that statement and be serious.

tooktook:

agerdemon:

tooktook:
Have any of you ever read Mein Kampf? Hitler makes plenty of statements and accusations without even trying to prove them. I believe Yahtzee is becoming like Hitler (Hehehhahehe. I chose this analogy just so I could say that.) He makes plenty of negative statements about MGS4 and while he does make a vague attempt to prove them, all in all he just sounds like an asshole with a chip on his shoulder about dialog who has become drunk on his own sense of power. He gave a more favorable review of Haze then he did on MGS4! Something is clearly wrong. I've never even played any Metal Gear game and it still looks like a great cinematic experience. Yahtzee claims to be a "games are art hippy fagmosexual" Then what the hell is his problem? He must have been sexually abused by dialog when he was 5. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he's so shit scared of it.

Are you seriously conparing Yahtzee to Hitler! Just because he points out things about a game and doesn't like doesn't mean he's a fascist dictator! He 'dissed' a game other people like, oh well, I support Liverpool football team and my mate supports Everton I don't hate him for it!

No, I'm not comparing Yahtzee to Hitler. I was joking. I do apologize. My humor seems to be lost on a lot of people. The idea of comparing Yahtzee to Hitler is so ridiculous I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. Come on, did you honestly think I was being serious? I have enough faith in humanity to believe no-one would make that statement and be serious.

Soz it is difficult to know whats humour and what isn't when it's just written down. I still think that Yahtzee is completely justified to make the comments he has.

TerraMGP:
I know exactly what fluff is, I am using it correclty.

So ehm, what definition of "fluff" are you using?

See, when I think "fluff", I think

1. Unnecessary information with little substance

2. Cotton

3. Bunnies

A little elaboration would help things get on the same page, if tempdude0's text walls don't completely take up all the room that is (ba dup tish). For discussion's sake it'd be more preferable if those participating would settle on a single definition of the words being used. In my opinion, the dictionary definition of a word or at the very least, the slang terms that are known universally(which likely means that it will be listed as "slang" in the dictionary) is advisable. That is, of course, if we are not moving into an abstract discussion of 'What is art?' and 'What is beauty?'.

Yet, the matter remains,

We can not move forward onto the a higher ground of discussion if both participants do not understand each other's usage of words.Thus, their arguments spin in circles like two men trying to grab each other's buttocks inside a revolving door. It stops the flow and people can't get inside the damn building.

if this continue we will see Team Retards come back. Another round of Shut up from Yahtzee

I can't say I won't be looking forward to that.

Gotta love Yahtzee when he gets these 800+ posts reviews.

Know who I love? Yatzee thats who I love.

Awe Man, this thread has Subjected to Godwin's Law. Abandon Intelligent Debate, all ye who enter here.

Thanks for the summarization tempdude, reading your post with about 75% of unnecessary examples is really exhausting. Anyway...

Tempdude0:
Metal Gear has mediocre writing because it tends to stretch suspension of disbelief to unheard of levels. Even within the world it sets up, certain events (anything concerning that cockwit Raiden) are beyond what could realistically happen. If ZE PATRIOTS!1! can get into peoples body and minds, there are no secrets...Period..

Let's assume that you meant "the logic or coherence in Metal Gear Solid' Story is ripped apart by its own author, which is an example of bad writing". That argument seems decent, now let us discuss what you, specifically, pointed as unrealistic. ZE PATR10T5! must know everything because they're "inside" of everyone with nanomachines. Note that "everyone with nanomachines" limits the amount of information of the patriots. Now consider every "plot twist" and attempts to deceive ZE PATRIOTS!!. Think about them slowly... Ok, now remember your own argument and think this: Those with nanomachines were deceived so that their perspective wouldn't reveal any true objective. Does this reminds you of Raiden, Snake or someone else? Anyway, now that the only decent argument you got there is invalidated, let's see others (Really, wading through all that irrelevant text is excruciating).

Tempdude0:
As for "Dry writing" I'm going to the dictionary again. I'm going to do your job for you just to point out how stupid you sound. "not showing or communicating warmth, enthusiasm, or tender feeling b: wearisome, uninteresting <dry passages of description> c: lacking embellishment" There we go, dry writing is never good due to it's nature and if you knew that you wouldn't be referring to something you like as "dry" you monumental douche. Stop using terms you don't comprehend.

The "dry" thing is completely subjective, I don't know what you intended to prove there. But seeing that you're referring only to Terran, I don't know why is it in THE summarization. God, you make your post unreadable.

TerraMGP:
Bah, actions don't speak louder than words, they just satisfy the impatient. He puts out the information that people need. This is like saying the Silmarillion is bad writing because its too dry for some people to follow. Its not bad writing, its the reader/watcher being unable or unwilling to follow it and just wanting punchy action. Still waters run deep after all.

Are you actually comparing a book; something you read, something that only tells a story, something passive, to a game; something you play, also has a story, but something that calls you into action? Please don't, those two are way too different, just don't.

I don't mind lots of story in a game. What I do mind, however, is when gameplay has to take a backseat to the story. It's like saying "we won't get the story right if you play too much, here, watch this cutscene where we explain everything that's going on and then you can go on kill some dudes again and we'll take over at the key story moments so you won't fuck up".
I said it before and I'll say it again; I don't know if this is actually how MGS4 plays and if it doesn't then don't assume I claim it to be so, but that's how I perceived it, and it sounds to me that it's more of a movie than a game.

Hell if it was a movie I'd probably go and watch it.

Also I have no further opinion on the entire MGS franchise, I just love the way this is happening to yet another big title game, like it did with SSBB.

Tempdude0, TerraMGP, do you guys even know what you're arguing about anymore? Hell, i don 't even know what you two are arguing about anymore.

Also, it feels funny when someone posts my username in their posts :3

EDIT: To all of of you people who are perciving that MGS4 has bad writing BEFORE you even play the fucking game, go dig yourself a ditch and bury yourselves. Never say anything about a game before you've played it, that includes saying "Well i havn't played the game yet...BBUUUTTTT *blah blah blah*"

That is very stupid as you obviously have no idea what you just talked about. Give the damn game a chance. I don't know if Tempdude0 or TerraMGP have played the game yet (TerraMGP probably did) but (mainly to Tempdude0) don't say a game has bad this and that before you havn't even played the game.

I'm surprised no one is complaining about the gameplay when its a GAME.

I just realized that the MGS series is like GI Joe that presents itself as serious.

he's not comparing the book to the game, his just using the book as an example
refering to you sennz0r

To Arntor, I don't really know where she's coming from, but I've already clarified that I speak using the terms as defined in the dictionary. Any confusion on her part should be nil considering I even include THE DEFINITIONS I'M USING!...and what an odd metaphor. Really weird visual, you know?

VeryOblivious...They were deceived so that their perspective wouldn't reveal any true objective? You want to clarify that? I understand "Keep people from referring to ZE PATRIOTS!" but I'm not catching where you're going with that line. You may want to expound a tad bit.

As for my point relating to it, it still stands. If they can infiltrate your thoughts then how would you keep, oh, say a birth secret from them? If they're so good at what they do and have used Cockwit Lightning's wife against him before, why not hit her up with a handy dandy dose of nanomachines even if only to say they hold her life in their hands and to keep tabs on her. In other words it falls pray to the same thing many of the "SHADOW ORGANIZATION" plots do in that we've got these highly competent people/creatures overlooking something monumentally important. When setting them up as intelligent, or at least thorough, they shouldn't be making blatantly obvious mistakes.

Even that as an aside, the plot goes convoluted like nobodies business. A great example is Ocelot. By the end of this game, he SPOILERS! Is Ocelot, who is pretending to be liquid snake by using hypnosis, who is liquid snake (Snakes evil clone brother) because he grafted liquids arm onto his own stump after getting his arm cut off by a cyborg zombie ninja and possessed by it due to inheriting his fathers (the sorrow) ability to commune with spirits, who is pretending to be Ocelot, who is working for Solidus, who is working for GRUE, who is working for the FBI or CIA, who is actually working for Col. Galukavitch and a mercenary group, who is really working for the patriots, but in actuality is really working for Big Boss.......While I can understand that, I've yet to see a character with such a convoluted buildup. Well, I probably have, but still, that's one DOOZY of a backstory. Oh, and I think the ninja came from N.A.S.A as well. I'm throwing that odd point out there just because of how much more ridiculous it makes that. END OF SPOILERS

No...It's not subjective. I'm not going for "interpretive language" here. It's all cold, hard, and dictionary based. It's not in "THE summation" then. I got on a tangent because of just how little she manages to read/comprehend. Wall of text aside, my writing takes all of two to three minutes to read. You can even type while reading for a "point by point" argument. I set it up that way on purpose.

As for irrelivant text, aside from the ad hominem attacks none of it is really irrelevant. I'm addressing individual problems I see in others arguments while making counter points to their assertions. I can understand not caring about some of it, but I can't make a COUNTER point unless someone makes a point in the first place to work with hence my spacing. I start new paragraphs in response to each point/problem I see as I read.

To Jumplion, my statements are about as clear as humanly possible. I've even got them separated into neat paragraphs. They may lack numbers now, but it's essentially an itemized list sans the numbering. As for the game itself, I watch people play games. I don't always play them myself. Hence the lack of complaints about gameplay elements. I can only complain about what I've seen. Though for the record I did play MGS 3. Not just watched it, got into it. Aside from a few issues with some of the maneuvers, such as figuring out how to interrogate someone without the booklet, I don't really have much to complain about in the gameplay department...Well, at least not here anyway.

To Shatnershaman, as I said, I've only seen it. I can't go into the gameplay because I wasn't asking my buddy for a blow by blow when it came to controls.

For the record, just getting this out there, but I decided to watch a few peoples reviews on the game for shits and giggles. I believe it was either IGN or G4 that caught my attention, because while it gave it an astounding score, it also pointed out the same issues I and others have been talking about. I found that odd considering reviewers lately have been overly nice so a crack at the overly verbose dialogs and lengthy cutscenes came out of left field.

And to TeH_InFErNo, that's the point. sennz0r is saying how ridiculous it is to use a book as an example when referring to a game. They're inherently different mediums that follow different rules of presentation. Now, if Terra had only reference the story aspect of both, she'd still be off because MGS 4 hypes action. It even has it in the title. One can safely assume that when a game has something in it's title than one can expect it in the game, which includes the story aspect of the game...Though I can't argue with the action in some of the cutscenes.

all i'm gonna say is i've played it not cleared it yet am a fan of the series but nothin has come close to what the first one was there is alot of bull shit chat that is just way too mind fucking altho some i gets i guess you'd have to have played every one of the previous games to get what its all about and any believability in the story was erased when liquid snake lives on through his dead arm being grafted on to someone else yes the game does need an editor but a good one not someone who fails to see the point of stories in a game as alot o games suffer this fact anyhoo its an alright game and the control system once you get used to it is ok and any gamer should be able to work out what buttons to press and not to press after the first 10 20 mins of playin anyway. and as for believeability its a game yahtzee keeps on sayin realism is a bad turn for most games so what the hey i mean come on if it was real life snake would be dead by now so there we go as for the whole gay inuendo yep its there in spades but what game isn't lol its a sign of the times where games are becoming like films the small companies make amazing shitty coz of cash but awesome for some reason because they have to be unique and only once every now and again we'll get somat from the big production companies thats awesome or good and the rest will be cash ins on sequels or prequels so there we go my views if anyone cares lol

Tempdude0:
To Arntor, I don't really know where she's coming from, but I've already clarified that I speak using the terms as defined in the dictionary. Any confusion on her part should be nil considering I even include THE DEFINITIONS I'M USING!...and what an odd metaphor. Really weird visual, you know?

TBH, That was more directed to her than you.
And I have an affinity towards making odd metaphors, it's another reason why I enjoy Yahtzee's reviews so much and most of the stuff he writes on his website. It's fun to take absurd scenes and try to make them fall in a way that makes sense. Just don't make a story that abuses our suspension of disbelief.

I may be very later to this, and i may be missing the point, but...
I'm just thinking about how some people feel that the use of Nanogenes to explain Vamps immortality is bad writing. I have to say, how does managing to show a perfectly reasonable (within the context) explanation to an almost inexplicable phenomena show bad writing? Is it that people don't see how nanogenes could lead to immortality? Then that nullifies you saying that the game was exposition heavy, as it shows that you needed exposition.

Lzdarkangel:
all i'm gonna say is i've played it not cleared it yet am a fan of the series but nothin has come close to what the first one was there is alot of bull shit chat that is just way too mind fucking altho some i gets i guess you'd have to have played every one of the previous games to get what its all about and any believability in the story was erased when liquid snake lives on through his dead arm being grafted on to someone else yes the game does need an editor but a good one not someone who fails to see the point of stories in a game as alot o games suffer this fact anyhoo its an alright game and the control system once you get used to it is ok and any gamer should be able to work out what buttons to press and not to press after the first 10 20 mins of playin anyway. and as for believeability its a game yahtzee keeps on sayin realism is a bad turn for most games so what the hey i mean come on if it was real life snake would be dead by now so there we go as for the whole gay inuendo yep its there in spades but what game isn't lol its a sign of the times where games are becoming like films the small companies make amazing shitty coz of cash but awesome for some reason because they have to be unique and only once every now and again we'll get somat from the big production companies thats awesome or good and the rest will be cash ins on sequels or prequels so there we go my views if anyone cares lol

longest 2 sentences ever.

To Tempdude0: I really think you don't have anything to prove to anyone, and neither does TerraGPM or whatever the letter combination was. It doesn't matter if your paragraphs are neat and tidy, if i can't really understand what you two are arguing about then you both could easily run against Kojima for Emporor of the Universe.

I would argue against all of the paragraphs you made directing to someone, but i'm too tired after writing some of my soon to be "RAnt on Mainstream" rant that i'll post here on the Escapist sometime when i'm done with it.

Just both of you calm down, and let us relay on what both of you said. What exactly are you two arguing about specifically?

PS: Still feels funny when someone puts my username in their rant :3

shatnershaman:
I'm surprised no one is complaining about the gameplay when its a GAME.

That's because the gameplay is very good.

Tempdude0:
VeryOblivious...They were deceived so that their perspective wouldn't reveal any true objective? You want to clarify that? I understand "Keep people from referring to ZE PATRIOTS!" but I'm not catching where you're going with that line. You may want to expound a tad bit.

Let's suppose that you are a dumb-ass boss, you have surveillance cameras in the office, your employees hate you and they intend to get your ass fired. But, as you're above them - with surveillance cameras - they can't make any move without you knowing that and having the chance to counterattack. So your workers pretend to do something on camera, for you to think a counterattack, but actually your workers are planning something else that takes advantage of your predictable behavior. Then, all ZE PATRIOTS thing exaggeration becomes a very simple matter that doesn't break the ingame-logic.

Tempdude0:
As for my point relating to it, it still stands. If they can infiltrate your thoughts then how would you keep, oh, say a birth secret from them? If they're so good at what they do and have used Cockwit Lightning's wife against him before, why not hit her up with a handy dandy dose of nanomachines even if only to say they hold her life in their hands and to keep tabs on her.

I don't get it, all that "My child died" stuff was for protecting the child from the Patriots. Raiden was being spied by the patriots because of his nanomachines, ergo, they had to deceive Raiden in order to deceive the patriots. At the time of MGS4's incident, I don't see why Raiden's child would be more important than liquid, and given the relation between Snake and this lighting emo, the patriots had no intention to stop him, because he would help Snake, and therefore help the patriots. Jeez, the amazing thing about this is that you talk about bad writing regarding something you haven't even played. Good for you.

Tempdude0:
In other words it falls pray to the same thing many of the "SHADOW ORGANIZATION" plots do in that we've got these highly competent people/creatures overlooking something monumentally important. When setting them up as intelligent, or at least thorough, they shouldn't be making blatantly obvious mistakes.

What mistakes?

Tempdude0:
Even that as an aside, the plot goes convoluted like nobodies business.

Now you want to deviate this debate by changing your argument, how smart you are! But you are contradicting yourself in this one. A conspirational plot has to be "convoluted". What kind of "shadow organization" would be if a reduced amount of information can be used to discover its existence? Now your arguments fall for themselves.

Tempdude0:
A great example is Ocelot. By the end of this game, he SPOILERS! Is Ocelot, who is pretending to be liquid snake by using hypnosis

I can't remember that statement in that particular cutscene. You may have to replay it, wait... You haven't played it at all.

Tempdude0:
who is liquid snake (Snakes evil clone brother) because he grafted liquids arm onto his own stump after getting his arm cut off by a cyborg zombie ninja and possessed by it due to inheriting his fathers (the sorrow) ability to commune with spirits, who is pretending to be Ocelot

Half of it is invented. Please make valid arguments.

Tempdude0:
who is working for Solidus, who is working for GRUE, who is working for the FBI or CIA, who is actually working for Col. Galukavitch and a mercenary group, who is really working for the patriots, but in actuality is really working for Big Boss.......While I can understand that

You really can understand that? You're something special. Any normal person wouldn't mix every received piece of information making a totally wrong statement and understand it! You're some kind of... ehm... Genius?

Tempdude0:
I've yet to see a character with such a convoluted buildup. Well, I probably have, but still, that's one DOOZY of a backstory. Oh, and I think the ninja came from N.A.S.A as well. I'm throwing that odd point out there just because of how much more ridiculous it makes that. END OF SPOILERS

What?

Tempdude0:
No...It's not subjective. I'm not going for "interpretive language" here. It's all cold, hard, and dictionary based.

You're basing your speech in the dictionary, ergo you're being objective.
Do I have to say that's the most idiotic argument I have read today?

Tempdude0:
It's not in "THE summation" then. I got on a tangent because of just how little she manages to read/comprehend. Wall of text aside, my writing takes all of two to three minutes to read. You can even type while reading for a "point by point" argument. I set it up that way on purpose.

I usually do that in quotes or at least, in separate paragraphs.

Tempdude0:
As for irrelivant text, aside from the ad hominem attacks none of it is really irrelevant. I'm addressing individual problems I see in others arguments while making counter points to their assertions. I can understand not caring about some of it, but I can't make a COUNTER point unless someone makes a point in the first place to work with hence my spacing. I start new paragraphs in response to each point/problem I see as I read.

Not only you make counter points, you add unnecessary examples to show your point, making it tedious and boring to read. Also, distracting from the true point of your argument not only to those who read you, but to yourself too.

Tempdude0:

As for my point relating to it, it still stands. If they can infiltrate your thoughts then how would you keep, oh, say a birth secret from them? If they're so good at what they do and have used Cockwit Lightning's wife against him before, why not hit her up with a handy dandy dose of nanomachines even if only to say they hold her life in their hands and to keep tabs on her.

At the end of MGS2, Jack was in a deep state of shock. GW had been attempting to stop him from destroying it by fucking with his mind, trying to suggest that Rose didn't exist, that she was only an actress hired by the patriots to spy on him. In the aftermath, Jack spun out of control. He had reacted to the incident with his ussual method of denial. However, the "Rose isn't real, she's only pretending to love me" thing had taken deep root within his mind. Thus, he became cold and distant. An attempt on her life would have been met with a resounding "meh" from him. The baby, however, was a very different story. It could reach him where Rose couldn't. Upon the babys miscarriage, "Jack" died, sorta like Edgar in King Lear, and he started to think of himself only as Raiden.

If the baby was revealed to be alive, they would steal it, just like they did with Sunny. Please also remember that the Patriots as a group were all dead, or outsed. The thing was completely run by AI's.

I hate to say this but.. The company is japenese and japan does have a taste for people with ridiculous hair, Big huge swords and guys that can't deal with women, and lengthy dialog. Sound familiar? Cyborg Ninjas instantly make the believability instantly impossible.. And why do the gekkos bleed? There machines and if they run on oil thats retarded because they don't blow up they short out.

And now put aside the cyborg ninjas and beautiful women who love showing themselves off.( Which isn't technically bad ) Now besides that the patriots are technically believable. They communicate through nanomachines they don't control people... They just provoke emotions and when the SOP is turned off its kinda like this. Imagine being shot and then getting morphine that lasts 5 minutes but then it wears off. And vamp being unkillable is atleast half-way believeable. But being shot in the head should instantly kill someone if it comes from a freaking sniper round..Minor cuts and stuff would be believeable but then again in this game theres fucking cyborg ninjas.

And there is a rifle that creates whirlwinds and a bandanna that gives infinite ammo. So turn off complete believability. Now even if it can't be believed fully doesn't mean it can't have real world rules.

And yeah i'm all over the place but heres a final run-down. This game is un-beliebeable but it has rules that are in some ways realistic but others like i dunno FUCKING CYBORG NINJAS. take away in my opinion this games title should be JTEA for japense tactical espionage action.

EDIT: I have no clue what i'm defending more likely attacking them for making a japense game which only japense people really understand.

Bulletinmybrain:
And now put aside the cyborg ninjas and beautiful women who love showing themselves off.( Which isn't technically bad ) Now besides that the patriots are technically believable. They communicate through nanomachines they don't control people... They just provoke emotions and when the SOP is turned off its kinda like this. Imagine being shot and then getting morphine that lasts 5 minutes but then it wears off. And vamp being unkillable is atleast half-way believeable. But being shot in the head should instantly kill someone if it comes from a freaking sniper round..Minor cuts and stuff would be believeable but then again in this game theres fucking cyborg ninjas.

And there is a rifle that creates whirlwinds and a bandanna that gives infinite ammo. So turn off complete believability. Now even if it can't be believed fully doesn't mean it can't have real world rules.

Evidently some people didn't get the memo. Ok, when Vamp gets shot in the head with a sniper round, it burrows into his brain, destroying his tissue. He dies. Then the Naos go to work. They repair all tissue damaged by the bullet, reforming connections according to the pre-bullet model, and then start his heart again. All forms of damage reversed quickly.

But as for the Rifle that fires whirlwinds, what? Where was that?

The Bandanna is just the old cheat codes. Its like judging God Of War harshly cause you can play as a cow, and somehow gain infinite magic.

Great review as always. Hard to see why people use up comment space to say how great the game is. If you like MGS4 then you like it, Im sure you dont need anyone else to clarify that you enjoyed the game.

Fret098:
Great review as always. Hard to see why people use up comment space to say how great the game is. If you like MGS4 then you like it, Im sure you dont need anyone else to clarify that you enjoyed the game.

We say how much he was wrong. Its just as valid is you saying the review was great. If it was just mindless agreement it wouldn't be the "comments" section, it'd be the "mindless sycophantry" section.