News Room Contributor Posts: 1264 Joined: 10 Apr 2007     | |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 977 Joined: 29 Nov 2007    | *edit* Nevermind... |
Beat Writer  Posts: 160 Joined: 7 Jan 2008  | Well, BioWare have always invested heavily into spectacle and long play, both of which would be crippled in execution on the Wii when compared with current standards. This is in addition to the fact that virtually any BioWare game released on the Wii outside the console's target demographic would be a gamble. I also should point out that their programmers have certain quirks in execution of tasks that would make control schemes and frame rates suffer. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1093 Joined: 9 Dec 2007   | Some would say that the inclusion of unnecessarily complicated storylines (which do nothing but further elitism within the 'hardcore' gaming crowd) which include ultra-softcore sex scenes leaked to attempt to boost sales instead of real marketing wasn't real game development, either. Some would say that. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 385 Joined: 12 Sep 2007   | Gaming has existed for thousands of years before the invention of the computer. Games are games, not stories. The only people in the world who don't know these things are professional electronic game developers. By their logic, Go must be a toy, not a game. |
Beat Writer Posts: 160 Joined: 7 Jan 2008 | Quite right. They want to make RPGs, and not on the Wii, so they tried to defend that decision not by demographics but by getting poncy and discussing it as metagaming with poor language. I likes the Mass Effect, but the good doctors may need a bit of head-ass interface adjustment. |
Paperboy  Posts: 14 Joined: 14 Mar 2008  | I'm not really sure what to say. They're talking alot of crap (Sorry, terminology) so that it's hard to interpret what they actually mean. I don't think you can call any console itself "gaming" on the basis that the console alone does nothing. If they're refering to games on the wii then really they're picking and choosing to match their criteria. Zelda and Fire Emblem, along with countless other games, all have storylines so if the difference between being a toy and being a game is a story then all books are games, and alot of board GAMES aren't games at all. Finally, i think a very loose idea of a toy is basically something which requires imagination to "function". A lightsaber toy is no fun if you aren't pretending to be battling hordes of sex offenders with it for example. A game has parameters which you operate within in order to have fun EG: The board game Risk, you use the playing board, peices and rules in order to play a game. (this may not be completely clear, it sounds good to my mind now, but if its phrased badly or something just complain and i'll attempt to make sense... That or apologise and retreat from the forums) |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 406 Joined: 13 Jul 2006  | Zeschuk had this little gem to say shortly after, in the interview...
Yes, Greg, lumping all games into a one-size-fits-all mentality is ignorant... that's why there is Mass Effect, Ninja Gaiden, and Wii. Need I point out the irony? ;-) |
Copy Clerk Posts: 90 Joined: 16 Sep 2007 |
I think I speak for a lot of people when I ask: On topic however: I think this Zeschuk needs a kick in the throat. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2570 Joined: 21 Jan 2008    | I'm a Bioware fan, who immensely enjoyed Mass Effect. While I readily admit this, I think that the guys who reckons that games need story is completely wrong. As stated before, by Razzle, IronMuck, and Echolocationg (sorry if I haven't mentioned you), if games needed stories to be called games, then movies and books would be considered games. No, what makes a game, IMO, is interaction. A game allows players to interact, to play out, to become part of the narrative. Hell, for me, gameplay is more important to story (which is why I like FPSs). Another thing: Bioware games are RPGs, meaning they need are amounts of disk space, and all that; something that can't be done on the Wii. So, instead of owning up to the fact they're a one-trick pony (regardless of how good they are), they make up an excuse. Not cool man. - A procrastinator |
Anonymous Source Posts: 4 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 | I understand a "game" to be the concept that provides the framework, defines the rules, interactions and challenges when playing, while a "toy" is merely an instrument I use while playing. For a kid, the game might be fully constructed in his head while he battles with his toy soldiers. For the Wii or any other console, IMO the hardware is the toy that allows the interaction (e.g. controller, plastic tennis racket extension and all the other stuff they offer) while the actual game (yes, game...) provides you with the framework, the motivation why you spend your time in the basement without windows, living off cold pizza etc.
That is a brilliant quote. I didn't know they now sell the Wii without a disk slot and with Wii Sports as the only built in cartridge ;) |
Paperboy Posts: 13 Joined: 2 Jan 2008 |
Never trust the word of a man who says "different than." Zeschuck's grammar is FAIL. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1121 Joined: 13 Jan 2007 | 1. That narrative outside the game is just fluff and fancy talk. There's just as much narrative related to gaming as when I go out to complete mundane tasks. 2. To Zeschuck, "gaming" (video gaming here) precisely started with playing tennis on the TV. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 81 Joined: 29 Sep 2007   | So in Bioware's collective mind: Gaming = A long, drawn out story with a vaguely interactive mechanism to get through it. (i.e. KOTOR, where the "gaming" is all item management, walking, pressing a few buttons over and over, and choosing branching dialogue.) Playing with toys = A highly interactive experience involving the skill and effort of the player directly resulting in some sort of reward, accomplishment, or entertainment. (i.e. Metroid Prime 3, where "playing with this 'toy' the Wii" is all exploring, blowing things up, running, dodging, investigating anything that looks suspicious, and interacting with the environment and characters to progress.) Now no one could ever say that Prime 3 isn't story laden. It has tons of excellent writing and backstory just seeping out of the cracks in each planet. You just don't have to follow the ancient formula of a choose your own adventure novel to get to each story morsel. |
Paperboy Posts: 11 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 | it's already been said, but i think it needs to be brought to sharp focus: the wii is not a game. edit: it's a machine. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 863 Joined: 8 Apr 2008  | I'm so confused. All this pointless and horribly phrased hate towards the Wii from developers. I knew Nintendo was having trouble with third party support, but this is starting to get kind of ridiculous. The console has a lot of potential, if someone would be willing to take some risks. And last time I checked, a "toy" is an instrument for play, a "game" is a form of play. Therefore, every console is merely a toy. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 142 Joined: 6 Feb 2008 | As a random tangent, isn't Bioware making a Sonic game for the DS? If so, how can they say that they dislike the Wii for being 'toy-like'?! |
Paperboy  Posts: 35 Joined: 13 Oct 2007  | Well, they were right on one thing. The Wii isn't a game. Of course, not is it a toy, it's quite clearly a game's console. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 81 Joined: 29 Sep 2007 | Poorly phrased is right. They are debating "whether wii constitutes gaming." Last time I checked, the Wii is a video game console. Sure it has a very casual element, and it also tells us what the weather and news is. It does share photos, and email, and emulate a bunch of classic systems, but how does that make it any different from the other systems. There is a big irony here. The Wii is probably the most elemental gaming console on the market. It doesn't play movies. In fact they specifically avoided making it be something other than a game console. If any system could have shame heaped on it for not being a gaming system it's the PLAYSTATION 3. A 'bargain' priced Blu-ray player that still seems to languish in some sort of exclusives hell. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1788 Joined: 7 Feb 2008 |
Bioware respectfully disagrees. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 406 Joined: 13 Jul 2006 | On a slightly different tangent, I was discussing an idea for an online sci-fi role-playing game once that was more focused on role-play and completely level-less. Sure you got to discover new things and learn new skills that let you advance within the environment and story wise, but it didn't require you to kill 1000 mutant rats to magically learn how to hack computer systems. Anyway, the further I described the game to others, the more I was told that it wasn't really a game. Not a game? It really depends on how you define a game then. I was told that a game is a competition of sorts governed by rules with a clear winner at the conclusion. I really couldn't argue with that logic. I wasn't insulted, mind you. I was just really interested in what constitutes a game, at that point. When I look at Bioware's games, I would say I completed Jade Empire... but why do I say that I beat Mike Tyson's Punch-Out? It's like, somewhere along the line, games became less about competition (winning/losing) and more about a vehicle for narration (finished/unfinished). At some point, the game aspect merged with the narration and people didn't realize it. Anyway, just thinking out loud. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 4 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 |
I would argue that traditionally, the word has always been used for both - at least I'd say that's the case in the German language. I'm not a native speaker so it might be different in German vocab, but I'll try to explain what I mean. The word for game, "Spiel" has exactly the same roots as the verb for playing, "spielen". So you use spielen/"to play" for both playing a game and pretend play, as in "let's play knights" - I don't know whether you'd actually use it like that in English. Maybe a native speaker can help me out here: would you call kids playing some fantasy situation playing a "princess game" or something similar? What I'm trying to get to is this: At least in Germany, the word is used for both playing in a challenge with set rules, were you "beat" the other, but also in a situation where the fun is the process of playing in a fantasy world, the narrative part. So there really isn't anything new in the concept of bringing narration into games. The new part is, IMO, that we now have the means to provide an interactive virtual reality other than in your imagination that is just as fascinating. What we used to only be able to do with imagination, we can now experience visually, with sound, tactile feedback. And most importantly, we are no longer limited to our own imagination, creativity and talent. Come on now, how many of you would be able to, or want to, imagine a setting like FEAR in all its detail? Narrative games offer us packages of other brilliant peoples ideas and talents to experience ourselves - great imagination in a box with a price tag. Coming back to the topic, I think games exist in all flavors between the extremes of basic rules, just beat the opponent, and narration that comes close to interactive movies. Neither is worse or less fun than the other if well done - of course people have different preferences. Kids and adults years and years before us have enjoyed these various styles of games before, just with different means. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3224 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 |
A game IS a story, games are an instinctive representation of a real world situation, as you say, before computers, they were "catch" "tag" "play mum" "play hunter" even animals play fight and play out real world situations. Games are a story, a tool for teaching, a toy is a thing for amusement. Computer games are, while not direct comparisons, evolutions of the basic game components, play fighting, self defense, the hunter, the domestic task, the competition. This is not to say the Wii is not a gaming machine (my definition of game includes all the Wii activities, it is gaming... justa fairly gimmicky one, how many 'swing the bat' games can one console produce, they seem to be accelerating daily...), i'm just clarifying the nature of a story. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 190 Joined: 23 Dec 2007 | So let me see if i get this straight. For Bioware, you can only call a game "gaming" if it has a story? If yes, then what were we all doing in the 80's? If I misunderstood, please disregard what I just said Also, arcades anyone? they were a place not only to play games, but also to talk with fellow gamers. And still, no one doubts arcades constitutes/ed gaming (as far as i know, at least). This guys are nuts. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 74 Joined: 24 Mar 2008 |
That sorta sounds like a point an click adventure game to me .. well with out the point an click part. Ok if you never level-up (Like in Zelda.) you can just aquire weapon/skills to attack the enemy that might be the only means to hurt new ones or just better, and instead of harder hitting enemies they could just be more percise or elusive. Also it looks like your first tools if not replaced would actually be useful later or not.[This is just my take on what your saying though... Sounds like a game i'd wanna play or played before but a new take on the experience is always welcome.] On Topic... IMO A toy is something that has no manual or intructions toward a prepackaged set of rules for the object(s)/device(s) with intent to be "Playing". Where as a Game is anything with a set of rules, laws, or guidelines which is the most flexibe meaning that would allow for your own twist of preestablished rules or creation of new ones for "Playing". exp. "Monopoly" When you land on Park Place is it "Free parking" or collect money form losses form other elements of the game?" In short yes Wii is a Gaming system. |
Paperboy Posts: 20 Joined: 18 Apr 2008 | Um, well I don't know what anyone else is doing on their Wii, but I'm gaming! If anything, Wii is more of a gaming console than either of the others, just because with the 360 and PS3 there's a load of non-gaming stuff to do, where with the Wii it's fairly limited what you can do outside of the games. Just a thought. I don't see a real, substantial difference between my 360 gaming and Wii gaming. The types of games are often very different, but it doesn't feel like I'm doing an entirely different class of activity on each one. EDIT: I suppose they might be talking about all of the various party games you can get and play with friends. I suppose it is a different class of activity in that case, something akin to getting together to play a board game, but I don't think it's so different that it needs to be called an entirely new thing. Sure, it's a new, communal way of playing which hasn't really happened before (it's not quite the same feel as just playing multiplayer on 360) but then so were FPS games when they were first created. So maybe it's more like a new genre - or at least an old one which has found a new way to become popular. Aaanyway, I don't play on my Wii for that sort of game, so I'm still regular ol' gaming. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 81 Joined: 29 Sep 2007 |
But previously
I think your forgetting that the Wii has lots of non-game features, it just so happens to be the only one that isn't trying to sell itself as either: |
Paperboy Posts: 20 Joined: 18 Apr 2008 |
I haven't forgotten about those, but I don't think there's a real argument that the non-gaming content of the Wii even approaches that of the other two consoles, and it isn't meant to. In fact, the only extra I'd really like for the Wii is perhaps a channel that lets me know about upcoming releases, and I hear there's one in the works. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1121 Joined: 13 Jan 2007 | Lumines was an excellent game because it had a story put in by the devs. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 81 Joined: 29 Sep 2007 |
Had one of the best gripping 100 hour long narratives ever! With female alien sekx. |
Paperboy  Posts: 25 Joined: 7 Feb 2008 | So based on this criteria, Pong, Space Invaders, Street Fighter, heck, most every arcade game are toys, not a videogames. It is worth pointing out that the shooter/ vehicle aspects of Mass Effect are actually rather shoddy when compared with the high quality of the rest of the game (graphics, narrative, soundtrack, etc) and what is currently available on the console. I don't think that the "game" would have lost much of it's appeal if these sections were removed altogether. Based on this, I would like to add to the debate by saying that Mass Effect is a (at best second-rate) erotic science fiction novel, not a videogame! |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1121 Joined: 13 Jan 2007 |
I never got to that point unfortunately. :( |
Press Junketeer Posts: 406 Joined: 13 Jul 2006 |
We'd typically say they are just " |
Bioware Heads Debate Whether Wii Constitutes Gaming
In a recent interview, Bioware heads Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk expressed disagreement over whether the Wii constituted gaming versus just playing with a toy.
Originally responding to a question about whether storylines are the motor force behind genuine advances in gaming, the pair debated whether the Wii's casual, socially oriented model could be called gaming, and what it is that defines the activity.
"There's a narrative there, too, between people playing sports," Muzyka said about the dynamic of the Wii. "It's actually a narrative between the people playing it. It's sort of one level abstracted from the game...I think it's still part of the game experience."
Zeschuck, though, took a different approach, likening the Wii to playing with a toy, given the absence of a conventional narrative.
"[T]hose kinds of experiences are much more like a toy experience. They're playing, together or not, but you're not 'gaming' anymore. What's different than you actually playing tennis?"
To which Muzyka ultimately responded: "When you look at a moment to moment experience what a player does on a Wii game, it's different, lighter, and more toy-like. But there's also a narrative between the players outside the game and kind of fulfills the same things games do. Games are 'toys' in the sense that they're fun."
Bioware, which is behind a number of A-list story-heavy roleplaying games, the latest of which was Mass Effect, does not have any games out or officially planned for the Wii.
Source: Gamedaily.com
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