TOGSolid: This is SO true. I know TONS of people that buy games and music because "They're good".
Except I can actually back that up with Galactic Civilizations 1 and 2 and Sins of a Solar Empire. All of which posted great sales and had 0 DRM.
Sure, no one is arguing that people buy games that are good. But it doesn't change the fact that lots of people pirate games whether they're exceptional or not. Example: I'm the ONLY one of my friends that bought "Orange Box". Three of my friends downloaded it, which sucks because we can't play TF online together.
There's no excuse for pirating games, regardless of quality. Maybe companies overreact about it, but imagine how much better their sales would be (and therefore their resources for making BETTER GAMES) if everyone that pirated it bothered to actually purchase the game.
Pirating is a dick move, and no one here has changed my opinion.
Once again, you seem to think your friends represent the entire gaming community. They don't, not by a long shot, which is what I was basically getting at. Yes, there are assholes that pirate games and never buy it, but they are the minority. Most gamers do buy their games. Yes a lot of them pirate also, but in most piracy discussions, you'll see the vast majority talking about how they treat it like a demo. I totally admit I've pirated a few games, but I always buy the games I knew I'd want to keep playing. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/dracofyre/Picture007.jpg <--because I know someone will try and play a "oh you're just saying that" card. Those are all purchased games.
If you want to try it out, download the demo. Almost every single game has one.
Demos these days suck. They're usually a 1.5 GB download for 10 minutes of gameplay that only illustrate exactly what they want you to see. It's just a sucker punch to get you to buy the game. I know more than a few guys who played the TFU demo and went "hey not bad" and then bought the game and were /facepalming the whole way through.
TOGSolid: This is SO true. I know TONS of people that buy games and music because "They're good".
Except I can actually back that up with Galactic Civilizations 1 and 2 and Sins of a Solar Empire. All of which posted great sales and had 0 DRM.
Sure, no one is arguing that people buy games that are good. But it doesn't change the fact that lots of people pirate games whether they're exceptional or not. Example: I'm the ONLY one of my friends that bought "Orange Box". Three of my friends downloaded it, which sucks because we can't play TF online together.
There's no excuse for pirating games, regardless of quality. Maybe companies overreact about it, but imagine how much better their sales would be (and therefore their resources for making BETTER GAMES) if everyone that pirated it bothered to actually purchase the game.
Pirating is a dick move, and no one here has changed my opinion.
Once again, you seem to think your friends represent the entire gaming community. They don't, not by a long shot, which is what I was basically getting at. Yes, there are assholes that pirate games and never buy it, but they are the minority. Most gamers do buy their games. Yes a lot of them pirate also, but in most piracy discussions, you'll see the vast majority talking about how they treat it like a demo. I totally admit I've pirated a few games, but I always buy the games I knew I'd want to keep playing. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/dracofyre/Picture007.jpg <--because I know someone will try and play a "oh you're just saying that" card. Those are all purchased games.
If you want to try it out, download the demo. Almost every single game has one.
Demos these days suck. They're usually a 1.5 GB download for 10 minutes of gameplay that only illustrate exactly what they want you to see. It's just a sucker punch to get you to buy the game. I know more than a few guys who played the TFU demo and went "hey not bad" and then bought the game and were /facepalming the whole way through.
Agreed, if Developers really want to curb on piracy, release sizable demo's that give you a good feel for the gameplay, be sure not just to highlight your strengths but all aspects of the game. We'll respect you for it and even if we give your game a pass your not selling at a loss.
I've been playing the PC version of Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway. They have done it again, the singleplayer is really good.
But the mulitplayer is a let down, terrible games browser which prolly took them 5mins to make, tons of bugs and player animations that look worse than the original Day of Defeat. Its a lazy port again, its a shame because its a fun game.
Its 2008, is quality that hard to ask for? Fuck you Ubisoft.
Key phrase up there is "we can't play TF online together". Steam is a prime example of a service where any DRM/protection exists to make the pirated version of a product inferior to the genuinely purchased one. Sure, your friends can play Portal, but if they want to play TF2 and enjoy it the way legitimate customers do they're SOL until they fork over the money. I'm entirely in favor of things like that.
Don't need DRM for things like that. Why, back in the olden days we had these things called "CD-Keys" and unless they were verified with the online server as non-pirated keys, then they couldn't play online.
Warcraft 3, to my knowledge, has no issue with people playing online with pirated copies. That game is six years old. ;/ Shows how far we've needlessly come, ey?
Key phrase up there is "we can't play TF online together". Steam is a prime example of a service where any DRM/protection exists to make the pirated version of a product inferior to the genuinely purchased one. Sure, your friends can play Portal, but if they want to play TF2 and enjoy it the way legitimate customers do they're SOL until they fork over the money. I'm entirely in favor of things like that.
Don't need DRM for things like that. Why, back in the olden days we had these things called "CD-Keys" and unless they were verified with the online server as non-pirated keys, then they couldn't play online.
Warcraft 3, to my knowledge, has no issue with people playing online with pirated copies. That game is six years old. ;/ Shows how far we've needlessly come, ey?
CDkeys can be cracked, there are programs that'll generate CDKeys for you. Really it's impossible to prevent games from being cracked. There is an elegant solution to any problem, it's just up to us to figure it out.
Oh, and I keep hearing weird things about Far Cry 2, when is the actual release date? Is it the 21st or 22nd? Is the PC version the latter one so the console sales aren't cannibalized?
Clarification would be nice. I hope Ubisoft's policy isn't "PC version later ever time" now.
CDkeys can be cracked, there are programs that'll generate CDKeys for you. Really it's impossible to prevent games from being cracked. There is an elegant solution to any problem, it's just up to us to figure it out.
You misunderstand the way CD Key authentication works. There is a master algorithm that generates the keys. Each time a disk is pressed and shipped the algorithm is run once, and it's result is added to a database that the publisher/developer maintains and is uploaded to the authentication server, as well as printed on a card to be shipped with the disk.
Keygens you can download off of the net use the same algorithm and spit out a key that will get past the cd key check built into the software. When the program phones home to check the key however (in days past that was only when someone tried to play online as the check was usually run when the server browser was opened while more modern ones make the check during the installation process denying simple keygen users access to the program at all), it is checked against the database and will be determined to be bogus because an original disk was never shipped with that key. The program may then be disabled, the key may be blacklisted or any number of other things. The possible outcomes of these algorithms number in the hundreds of millions or more, so the probability of a keygen spitting out a genuinely legitimate key are absolutely miniscule.
CD Keys are very effective methods of stopping casual piracy among the technologically illiterate, which is all DRM or indeed any anti-piracy measure can ever hope to do. They are also far less irritating to legitimate customers than mandatory registration or the absolutely draconian '3 installs, we might give you more if you ask us nicely' securom bullshit that seems to be popular now.
CDkeys can be cracked, there are programs that'll generate CDKeys for you. Really it's impossible to prevent games from being cracked. There is an elegant solution to any problem, it's just up to us to figure it out.
You misunderstand the way CD Key authentication works. There is a master algorithm that generates the keys. Each time a disk is pressed and shipped the algorithm is run once, and it's result is added to a database that the publisher/developer maintains and is uploaded to the authentication server, as well as printed on a card to be shipped with the disk.
Keygens you can download off of the net use the same algorithm and spit out a key that will get past the cd key check built into the software. When the program phones home to check the key however (in days past that was only when someone tried to play online as the check was usually run when the server browser was opened while more modern ones make the check during the installation process denying simple keygen users access to the program at all), it is checked against the database and will be determined to be bogus because an original disk was never shipped with that key. The program may then be disabled, the key may be blacklisted or any number of other things. The possible outcomes of these algorithms number in the hundreds of millions or more, so the probability of a keygen spitting out a genuinely legitimate key are absolutely miniscule.
CD Keys are very effective methods of stopping casual piracy among the technologically illiterate, which is all DRM or indeed any anti-piracy measure can ever hope to do. They are also far less irritating to legitimate customers than mandatory registration or the absolutely draconian '3 installs, we might give you more if you ask us nicely' securom bullshit that seems to be popular now.
My best guess is that the decisions regarding copy-protection measures are being made by people who don't really understand the topic. In other words, the suits and shareholders of the publisher. Some of what I've read supports this although I don't have any links for you. They just don't understand how much is enough, and what goes way too far.
Another possibility is that since many of the DRM schemes are made by subsidiaries of the major media houses (Securom is owned by Sony, for instance) is that they're trying to drive people away from the PC platform. Another is that they are trying to cement the idea that you don't own your media (which is legally accurate anyway) in the minds of the populace. This might be a bit conspiratorial for some, but I don't think it's too far fetched.
*EDIT* I'd like to expand on that last idea.
The market seems to be moving towards games as an service ongoing service rather than a piece of property. Look at XBox Live's subscription model. Look at Everquest and WoW. Look at the Episodic Gaming trend as exemplified by Telltale's Sam and Max and American McGee's Grimm. Look at Games for Windows Live games not including features like LAN play and even the ability to host dedicated servers away from the Microsoft panopticon. The hosting servers get shut down, you can't play the game. Look at the rise of digital distribution as a whole.
I firmly believe that the PS5/Xbox1080 will not have an optical drive and all software will be 'bought' through Sony/Microsoft's online service.
ReepNeep: I firmly believe that the PS5/Xbox1080 will not have an optical drive and all software will be 'bought' through Sony/Microsoft's online service.
I think you're right.... but it is happening right now. I seriously doubt that the PS4 and XBox720 will even have a physical media drive. The PS3 proved that people don't care about an awesome media player. They just want good games (a-la XBox 360)
TOGSolid: This is SO true. I know TONS of people that buy games and music because "They're good".
Except I can actually back that up with Galactic Civilizations 1 and 2 and Sins of a Solar Empire. All of which posted great sales and had 0 DRM.
Sure, no one is arguing that people buy games that are good. But it doesn't change the fact that lots of people pirate games whether they're exceptional or not. Example: I'm the ONLY one of my friends that bought "Orange Box". Three of my friends downloaded it, which sucks because we can't play TF online together.
There's no excuse for pirating games, regardless of quality. Maybe companies overreact about it, but imagine how much better their sales would be (and therefore their resources for making BETTER GAMES) if everyone that pirated it bothered to actually purchase the game.
Pirating is a dick move, and no one here has changed my opinion.
It's not our fault you know a lot of cheapskates! Most of the people i know buy games they like after piracy demos (best way to put it)
ReepNeep: I firmly believe that the PS5/Xbox1080 will not have an optical drive and all software will be 'bought' through Sony/Microsoft's online service.
I think you're right.... but it is happening right now. I seriously doubt that the PS4 and XBox720 will even have a physical media drive. The PS3 proved that people don't care about an awesome media player. They just want good games (a-la XBox 360)
Unlikely, suitable speed internet connections aren't widespread enough globally to make it viable for the next generation. Plus, you seriously think that will work? Cracked Authorisation, and a cracked OS just like now.
You can't stop piracy, that's fact. Something that has to be inherently accessible to be used will broken in to.
the thing is, pirates are not just downloading every game out there. i pirate because most games are shit, and i don't want to spend 600sek (84usd) on a game that i install, play for an hour and go 'what the fuck is this shit?'. if i download a good game, i buy it later. there are few games i would buy without knowing what i'm in for.
iv'e never downloaded any game by valve for instance, to me that would be sacrilege, as i'm sure it would be to most of you.
TheEggplant: I can't help but wonder how much good this is going to do. They, pirates, will still crack the console version. I, in the mean time, will be spending my money on independent and Stardock games. When this game finally does roll-around there's a good chance my entertainment budget will be empty for awhile and they still will have lost a sell. I understand how frustrating it is to have something you made taken out of your control. Sometimes though you just have to let go.
10 says PSP will be available one or two days before official release, it happens with every other game, either that or 48 hours after release max.
Anyway, it's become the best excuse not to develop for PCs. I took a spit take when I read a comment by a Crysis developer or Head Project Manager here on an Escapist news report saying that Crysis sold bad "because of piracy". It can, OF COURSE, not be because you can't fully and smoothly run the game unless you have a magical PC from the future with alien technology that only exists in cartoons and space opera series...
So well, "BAAAAAAWWWWW our DRM-ridden, sub-par derivative overpriced game sells bad, it can't be because it sucks and is a cockslap on our customers' faces since the game is limited to three installs whatsoever, hard drive formats included, it only because PC games are ALL pirated ! Let's whine hypocritically about it in the media like flashers in denial caught in a police trap !"
So, does it come as a surprise that people stopped caring about buying pc games, except for Steam ? The EA Store is a shame, as greedily insulting as subprime loans, 2K and EA's SecuROM rootkits are nothing short of KGB/1984-like measures, but privatised... I seriously think that the more they try to "protect" their games from the people who play them, the less I'll care about paying them for "new" license exploitations (like Star Wars games), derivative reiterations, and such. At best I'll get them used, at worst... well, you know...
I don't know if X360 and PS3 have much cracked games, because apparently bans on Live and PSN are swift and merciless, but hell, it's been a year since I bought a game for my PSP (last time I did, it wasn't softmodded yet).
ReepNeep: I firmly believe that the PS5/Xbox1080 will not have an optical drive and all software will be 'bought' through Sony/Microsoft's online service.
I think you're right.... but it is happening right now. I seriously doubt that the PS4 and XBox720 will even have a physical media drive. The PS3 proved that people don't care about an awesome media player. They just want good games (a-la XBox 360)
Unlikely, suitable speed internet connections aren't widespread enough globally to make it viable for the next generation. Plus, you seriously think that will work? Cracked Authorisation, and a cracked OS just like now.
You can't stop piracy, that's fact. Something that has to be inherently accessible to be used will broken in to.
That argument right there is the reason it isn't being done right now. It is also the reason I specified the PS5. In 3-4 years? Probably not. In 10 the network infrastructure will most likely to the point that it will work in most 1st-2nd world countries. They might even issue seperate hardware to developing markets that has a disk drive and leave the online only stuff in markets that can support it. The Phantom is the future, laughing stock or no.
Console piracy is already impossible (PSP nonwithstanding) without a hardware mod of some sort. You need to be able to run custom code on them to bypass the security features. The vast majority of console owners don't even know what a modchip is. Out of the ones that do, few are willing to risk ruining their hardware by installing them.
The online-only nature of the box will also totally kill used game sales which is a bigger goal than killing piracy to the console makers. Anyone ever seen a Steam game in Gamestop?
Too bad EA has not fully embraced trusting its customers more by unbundling DRM and SecuROM. Another blog noted Pete Hines has announced that Fallout 3 will ship with little to no DRM whatsoever because they want to trust their paying customers. See http://www.aeropause.com/2008/10/fallout-3-to-ship-on-pc-minus-drm/
Figure each game costs $50 minimum, and if 500 people sign on, that would be $25,000 in lost revenue. For its loyal customer base, secretly adding DRM and SecuROM in their install is just not the way to treat us.
The three issues are that DRM and SecuRom are being installed without the user realizing it; DRM limits the number of computers you can install it on; and SecuROM has been affecting some peoples computers to the point that they needed to re-format their hard drive and uninstall the game to get their computer returning to normal.
And it takes just a minute to sign up. You can even sign anonymously.
Anyone think the downplaying of console piracy is going to bite us in the ass later? It's a huge problem for the 360, and bungie actually had to lay down the banhammer for halo 3 since a lot of people hacked the game. Wii, PSP, and DS - they have TONS of homebrew stuff for them.
The PS3 - it's complicated so even though it "can be done" those who want a challenge headache usually go through with it.
Still, ignoring console and focusing on PC is going to end up like "Pearl Harbor". Especially since it's so easy to combat against.
ReepNeep: I firmly believe that the PS5/Xbox1080 will not have an optical drive and all software will be 'bought' through Sony/Microsoft's online service.
I think you're right.... but it is happening right now
[quote=Jimmyjames post=7.73496.812983][quote=ReepNeep post=7.73496.812778]I firmly believe that the PS5/Xbox1080 will not have an optical drive and all software will be 'bought' through Sony/Microsoft's online service.
I think you're right.... but it is happening right now. I seriously doubt that the PS4 and XBox720 will even have a physical media drive. The PS3 proved that people don't care about an awesome media player. They just want good games (a-la XBox 360)
Unlikely, suitable speed internet connections aren't widespread enough globally to make it viable for the next generation. Plus, you seriously think that will work? Cracked Authorisation, and a cracked OS just like now.
You can't stop piracy, that's fact. Something that has to be inherently accessible to be used will broken in to.
That argument right there is the reason it isn't being done right now. It is also the reason I specified the PS5. In 3-4 years? Probably not. In 10 the network infrastructure will most likely to the point that it will work in most 1st-2nd world countries. They might even issue seperate hardware to developing markets that has a disk drive and leave the online only stuff in markets that can support it. The Phantom is the future, laughing stock or no.
Console piracy is already impossible (PSP nonwithstanding) without a hardware mod of some sort. You need to be able to run custom code on them to bypass the security features. The vast majority of console owners don't even know what a modchip is. Out of the ones that do, few are willing to risk ruining their hardware by installing them.
The online-only nature of the box will also totally kill used game sales which is a bigger goal than killing piracy to the console makers. Anyone ever seen a Steam game in Gamestop?
To be honest, you are underestimating a few things. A centralised system like the one you are talking of serving console games would be very expensive, specially in bandwidth costs. Games in a few years could be pushing 20gb easily. Less than 10 games on 200gb. Would you like to redownload a game because you ran out of space. Let alone any other download movie services, or even just space for demos or other things. What, a 1tb hard drive. Plus making sure countries like the UK and AUS don't ruin things like they are currently are with stupid caps and rate limiting.
The internet won't be fast enough for a system of that scale for a long time, globally.
corroded: The internet won't be fast enough for a system of that scale for a long time, globally.
I remember reading something about ten years ago that said the internet isn't fast enough to deliver video on demand for the average consumer. That was just ten years ago.
Once again, you seem to think your friends represent the entire gaming community. They don't, not by a long shot, which is what I was basically getting at. Yes, there are assholes that pirate games and never buy it, but they are the minority. Most gamers do buy their games. Yes a lot of them pirate also, but in most piracy discussions, you'll see the vast majority talking about how they treat it like a demo.
I totally admit I've pirated a few games, but I always buy the games I knew I'd want to keep playing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/dracofyre/Picture007.jpg <--because I know someone will try and play a "oh you're just saying that" card. Those are all purchased games.
Demos these days suck. They're usually a 1.5 GB download for 10 minutes of gameplay that only illustrate exactly what they want you to see. It's just a sucker punch to get you to buy the game. I know more than a few guys who played the TFU demo and went "hey not bad" and then bought the game and were /facepalming the whole way through.