True, but i still stand by what i say about the lack of maps. That would be the only comparison in which team fortress comes up on top.

As a player who does not discriminate between classes, I'll point out my problems, which are fortunately few and far in between and not very substantial:

- First of all, the scout scatter gun needs to get a good hit from the nerfstick. I'm not saying it should be as weak as a shotgun, but the amount of damage it deals now coupled with the running speed the scout possesses makes for a very, VERY annoying enemy. Don't get me wrong- I play the scout. I play all classes, depending on what I think my team needs most. I recognize how overpowered the scatter gun is even when I kill people with it. I don't think it's fair- in an optimum range the scout would be just out of melee reach and would be pelting the other person at will while that other will be hard-pressed to simply aim at the scout. Most classes die within two or three direct hits from the scatter gun. I don't think that's fair at all.

- The spy's ability to 'backstab' from the front-side. You know what I mean- when you die while actually watching the spy who stabs you. I'm all for the spy being able to crit-kill while my back is turned and even from my side-and-back, just as long as I am not able to see him, but I am always frustrated when a spy succeeds in stabbing me and getting an easy, free kill which is very hard to prevent (especially if it's a good spy who made a genuine impression) and surely not intended to occur by the developers.

- The pyro, quite honestly, needs even more teeth than he already has. I think the fact that he's increasingly the scariest thing on the map the closer he gets is awesome. Many times, however, I noticed that even before I can get to some players, especially soldiers, or right as I start burning them, I tend to die very quickly. I think the pyro needs either a bit more speed or a bit more firepower. I'd go for a speed upgrade in order to allow pyros to reach their targets and be able to contribute to their team before getting pummelled. I mean, I face it- the pyro is a suicide class. You go in at close range and scare the living crap out of people- but that's the point: disruption. What disruption do you cause when two rockets can kill you on your way to a soldier, or when an explosive kicks you miles away from your target before you could even land a hit on it? It's the way of the game, sure, but I think it'd be a bit better if pyros got a small break.

Everything else about the game, however, is quite impressively well-balanced.

I have to agree that the Pyro does need a bit more firepower. His speed seems sufficient to me, and a good pyro ambushes. But an ambush means practically nothing against a solder who blasts his own feet with rockets and kills the pyro. A pyro who runs across a map to the enemy is asking for it, I kill them regularly as a spy.

Thats why Pyro's have a shotgun. If I come across a soldier, I try to at least get him cookin' before getting out of spadge range and spamming him with my shotty.

I love this game. There's nothing more satisfying than sneaking up on a heavy being healed by 2 medics, wtfpwning your team, and inserting a sleek, glimmering, sexy knife into the medic's backs, then his.

One of the problems I had with the game was they changed Well to a CP map, I loved the old CTF well. And there was no Badlands map, my all time favorite map. But they have redeemed themselves on both accounts.

The soldier is a little frustrating, but nothing horrible, a soldier is perfect prey for spies because of their slow speed. Engineers can get annoying if no one is taking out their sentries, but as a spy that's not a huge deal, and it's quite fun to blow up lots of engineer crap.

This is probably my favorite online FPS game I have ever played.

There's a really good guide for Pyros

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGIISxhYRYE

I can say that I really have been getting better at the pyro because of that video.
But a skilled soldier will still make short work of even the best of pyros.

My biggest beef with this game (Im gonna feel like such a wuss) is that its hard. I play it and I have fun but I will only get 2 or 3 kills a round. I feel that this game has a high case of 'if your good your great but if your bad well... sorry'

Example.

I go around as a heavy and shoot at people but they all manage to get behind me and BAM..Death.. I then jump ship to another class (scout mostly) and I apply the same tactic but no.. I get shot up into a million little bits.

I know im being really lame (or 'nooby' as those hardcore guys say) but I would much rather play CoD4 and overall (I have my ups and downs) play a lot better. I should practice but its hard to when your getting shot to hell before you work out the strenghs and weaknesses (my main weakness at the moment being lack of ability) of the character.

Having said all that I respect TF2 and their players as the smarter FPS players, unline the Halo or some CoD4 players who are all "killkillkillkillnoobfag!!1111!!kill"

There are three mistakes in TF2's design: sentry knockback, which removes player control; critical hits, which can cause instant death; and the lack of any tangible benefit for attacking.

The first two only happen on occasions, but the lack of encouragement for offence seriously harms almost every game I play (in Europe). Of course, there is encouragement, including the crit algorithm above which I didn't know about before, but for the vast majority of players I encounter it isn't enough and they do not attack.

My rule is that if I spawn, push past the battle lines with ease, but die alone in or on a vital objective area more than twice in a row I either try to join the other team or disconnect. I often bounce off five or six servers in a row while following it, because of the sheer number of people who are afraid of attacking - even on offence/defence maps with one- or two-second respawn timers for the attacking team!

I can recount many tales of the entire red team standing around behind a 1way gate, or having to fend off the entire enemy team as an engineer because nobody else is even trying to, or spectating from above and watching a lone pyro cause a knot of seven or eight combat classes to retreat, or people standing around watching a point being captured because they might have to expose themselves to danger to get it back, or, or, or...

It desperately needs an idiot-proof "momentum meter" to give these poor sods some indication of what they're doing wrong, and rewards for correcting themselves.

NO! How can you even think about it? It has so many bad features, like: Some classes suck, wheres the teamplay and so on.

So nice to see my favourite 2 classes are the least played :F

Sentry knock back is the only thing I can think of that desperately needs sorting out. 3 full sg's will pretty much keep anyone out and if the other team has an engie-friendly pyro, there's physically no way of pushing past. The only way around this is to have the medic go first, take the knock back, and then pray that he can still maintain los with the uber.

Medics are getting a pack of extras so I'll hold off on them until that arrives.

Uglycat:
So nice to see my favourite 2 classes are the least played :F

Sentry knock back is the only thing I can think of that desperately needs sorting out. 3 full sg's will pretty much keep anyone out and if the other team has an engie-friendly pyro, there's physically no way of pushing past. The only way around this is to have the medic go first, take the knock back, and then pray that he can still maintain los with the uber.

Medics are getting a pack of extras so I'll hold off on them until that arrives.

You mean your medic didnt already take the knockback while ubered? That's been my standard tactic with heavies for ages. And the knockback is from all weapons, you just notice it so much more on SGs because all their bullets hit. Also, pyros are ambush classes, you jump down, set a bunch of people on fire and run off, if you keep expecting to get kills, you're doing it wrong. The scout scattergun is meant to be able to knock off a heavy in 5 hits... if you're insanely close, any further than medium range and it's a pointless weapon.

I do think that criticals need to go though, they make a fair element of the game rely on luck rather than skill.

Uglycat:
So nice to see my favourite 2 classes are the least played :F

Sentry knock back is the only thing I can think of that desperately needs sorting out. 3 full sg's will pretty much keep anyone out and if the other team has an engie-friendly pyro, there's physically no way of pushing past. The only way around this is to have the medic go first, take the knock back, and then pray that he can still maintain los with the uber.

Medics are getting a pack of extras so I'll hold off on them until that arrives.

Actually, what you're speaking of is the other team using intelligent teamwork. 3 guns and a pyro means four people have cooperated to defend that point. You don't expect to be able to counter that with a single player do you?

To counter them, you need to have some intelligent teamwork as well. For instance, team a couple medics with a demo man. The demo drops a load of stickies around the engineer, pyro, and guns while being exposed very minimally if he's quick. With a medic to heal him up, you finish it off with an uber-powered grenade lob into the mass explosion. Soldiers also work for this, but not quite as effectively, although if you can take out the pyro with the soldier, your spy can move in.

Bocca:
NO! How can you even think about it? It has so many bad features, like: Some classes suck, wheres the teamplay and so on.

None of the class are worse than any other classes, (except for soldier cause he's just a tiny tiny bit better then everyone else). Also, the game is oriented around teamwork, such as control point capturing or defending, gathering the intel, and simply fighting for your lives. Sure there will be the occasional who works only by themselves, but this game (unlike many others I don't need to mention) supports and encourages teamwork. All classes have their points, you just may not be good with some of them, making them seem like they suck. Happens.

Three sentry guns in one place (or even more) doesn't necessarily mean there is coordination or teamwork in play. There are some hot-spots for sentry gun placement that engineers will by default go and place them, depending on the map and where the fighting is (the courtyard/ramp room on 2fort, for example).

Just by them pursuing the best place to put their turrets for kills, they can wind up with something that you will need a lot of coordination to break. Three turrets can just come up in one place without teamwork, but three simultaneous Ubers to break that defense isn't going to happen by accident.

The result usually is stalemates (or failmates as I've heard some people in game refer to them as). When there's a good organized defense you need just so much teamwork to break them or so much time to get lucky that it makes more sense to fall back, sure up your own defenses, and wait for the timer to expire.

I only have the 360 version, so my opinions are bassed solely on it.

-The lag (I don't care about your opinion on this. If you don't believe it's a problem, you're wrong. End of discussion)
-Lack of maps. The ones there are are great, but there aren't enough. Besides, most people seem to cluster around 2Fort and Dustbowl.
-Lack of gametypes. While I know that death match would take the entire point out of the game, it would still be fun. And it's not like there aren't other game types to use. Seriously, I would kill for as little as another CTF map.
-I would also like some other classes, but only if they don't ruin the pre-existing ones.

Besides these complaints, I find TF2 to be at least as good as any other FPS game I've ever played.

PLEASE NOTE:

Team Fortress 2 players consider there to be TWO games.
Team Fortress 2
and the TF2 Demo, also called Team Fortress 2 for X-Box 360.
Unfortunately, the console versions are nowhere near as good. We apologize. But if you are to criticize the game for something that is in the PC version, stop right there.

Therefore the lag and map complaints are pretty much null. The server I play on enjoys its custom maps (some made by the people who run it) more than the official ones. We have a "melee barn" where you are restricted to your melee weapon, and we had an amazing amount of fun on it.

I do sort of have to agree with the gametype thing. I don't see why they couldn't just include a Team Deathmatch mode, except maybe for some balance issues (like sentries)

I actually like the critical hit system. You can't say "Oh, this next shot is gonna crit." A well-placed crit can turn the tide of a battle.

Kwil:

To counter them, you need to have some intelligent teamwork as well.

I hear what you're saying, but experience has taught me that unless the entire team is on teamspeak *and* cooperating, you've got nary a chance. I can't remember the map off the top of my head, but attacking the last control point means running round a corner smack into the entire team (the map funnels you into the last point). I've spent many unhappy minutes ubering (on both sides of the stream) and then going round the corner, only to be pinned against the wall until the uber fails and we all die. I physically cannot turn the corner to get to the turrets.

I suppose you might call this a design fault (any map should have 3 entries that approach from different directions - Hydro is a fairly good example), but a battery of sg's is an annoyance.

Only problem I have with tf2 is the sniper, which is weird because its my most played class.
when unscoped there is no possibility of a head shot, try zooming in the without moving your mouse then unzoom and fire (you'll need a friend to stand still on the other team) the shot will only register as a body hit. this really sucks as unscoped headshots would add a whole new dimension of skill to the game.

Just getting picky here but; snipers should be able to wall, if not through all surfaces then just wood.
Really how fucking awesome would that be, cs has done it years before why not tf2?

Axulciex:
when unscoped there is no possibility of a head shot, try zooming in the without moving your mouse then unzoom and fire (you'll need a friend to stand still on the other team) the shot will only register as a body hit. this really sucks as unscoped headshots would add a whole new dimension of skill to the game.

If you've ever played games where sniper rifles can be used like this, it generally means sniper spam. All you have to do is to stick a small piece of blu-tack or playdoh on your screen where the centre point is, and then there's little skill. I like the way TF2 has forced snipers to snipe - through the scope - as it forces you to choose carefully whether you want that class or not, as you run the danger/risk of being killed while zoomed in. Otherwise maps like battlecreek would become stupidly lethal.

I like the shooting through wood idea though.

Well mate, he does wield a rocket launcher. I'd expect that to kill on solid hit. Its not a flaw, it was developed for the soldier to be able to do that.

some random guy:
Some things I don't like about TF2:

3. When, at the end of a game, the losing team lose the ability to control there weapons and the supply areas become accessible to the opposing team.
The team has already lost, they don't deserve to be unfairly killed by the winning team.

This IS a fair point but I think that it is a good idea to have this. But what really annoys me is that kills here count towards 'revenge' or 'domination' which is hardly fair when you are about to change map and you can't get revenge on THEM or you think you have gotten away with a nemesis on your back

I actually first bought this game as part of the orange box on the 360 and thought it sucked, but after being bugged constantly by a friend at university i decided to buy it on Steam too. And i love it! Best FPS for looooong time, imo.

2 major problems though:

- The Xbox360 (and likely PS3) version of this game simply sucks.
- Unless you find a good custom-map server(eg. Jiggly's fun house) the maps rotation gets old pretty quick

I don't understand the Soldier hate, seriously. If you get hit with a round from a bazooka, prepare to be gibbed. It's pretty straightforward and reasonable. It's the backbone of the offense of the team, the rockets are suited to deal with a heavy as well as a spy, it's a powerful weapon wielded by an offensive class. The flamethrower is comparably powerful, it simply doesn't have the range, and you burn, if teams learned to advance in a way that made sense, rather than a gaggle of people charging the other point, you'd see why the Pyro is easily comparable to the other offensive classes.

TF2 Is awesome. I think everyone has become immune to spies, though, (Yes, I know that's not the game's fault) but the spy seems just about to make a kill as the other person shoots you with barely any motivation.
Also the 360 version is still great. I think a comment Yahtzee made in his witcher review rings true now.

Its average, it generally feels like filler added to the orange box for the sake of it having an online feature like all games do these days (including some that clearly shouldnt).
Unlike most if not all online fps' kills and deaths are completely unimportant its more about standing on the round thing or grabbing the briefcase if you can get past the team of turrets then repeat.
I only felt impressed when people were actually tricked by the spy's disguises... altho it eventually came down to 'Disguise - Stab - invisible - Change Disguise - Stab again'

Its fun to play if you just want a skirmish with a few folk, if you can get past constantly going into laggy games because the hosts names are so long they cut off the ping bar in the lobby.

ChaosStep:
Its average, it generally feels like filler added to the orange box for the sake of it having an online feature like all games do these days (including some that clearly shouldnt).
Unlike most if not all online fps' kills and deaths are completely unimportant its more about standing on the round thing or grabbing the briefcase if you can get past the team of turrets then repeat.
I only felt impressed when people were actually tricked by the spy's disguises... altho it eventually came down to 'Disguise - Stab - invisible - Change Disguise - Stab again'

Its fun to play if you just want a skirmish with a few folk, if you can get past constantly going into laggy games because the hosts names are so long they cut off the ping bar in the lobby.

Um, you kind of screwed up a bunch of things here.
1. COD4, Halo 3, Crysis, and UT3 have all had special gamemodes that had more attention than their deathmatch mode. And while TF2 has the distinction of not having ANY deathmatch mode, this is partially due to balancing the classes, and providing a need for people to push ahead.
2. Most of the people I play with can recognize spies pretty well, and when playing as one I can assure you there's a lot more to think about; failure to use the right disguise, forgetting how long it takes to apply the disguise; poof. Your cover's blown, and you're screwed.
3. Some classes are a bit basic to play as, yes, and aren't so impressive. But that's certainly not the case everywhere; sniping a scout in midair, killing someone with a melee weapon, catching someone with an unseen stickybomb, burning down a medic and his heavy...that normally impresses me.
3. My server list right now shows over 200 servers with ping under 100. Of those, 35 went past the server name space, but it just cuts off with a "..." there.

Katana314:

ChaosStep:
Its average, it generally feels like filler added to the orange box for the sake of it having an online feature like all games do these days (including some that clearly shouldnt).
Unlike most if not all online fps' kills and deaths are completely unimportant its more about standing on the round thing or grabbing the briefcase if you can get past the team of turrets then repeat.
I only felt impressed when people were actually tricked by the spy's disguises... altho it eventually came down to 'Disguise - Stab - invisible - Change Disguise - Stab again'

Its fun to play if you just want a skirmish with a few folk, if you can get past constantly going into laggy games because the hosts names are so long they cut off the ping bar in the lobby.

Um, you kind of screwed up a bunch of things here.
1. COD4, Halo 3, Crysis, and UT3 have all had special gamemodes that had more attention than their deathmatch mode. And while TF2 has the distinction of not having ANY deathmatch mode, this is partially due to balancing the classes, and providing a need for people to push ahead.
2. Most of the people I play with can recognize spies pretty well, and when playing as one I can assure you there's a lot more to think about; failure to use the right disguise, forgetting how long it takes to apply the disguise; poof. Your cover's blown, and you're screwed.
3. Some classes are a bit basic to play as, yes, and aren't so impressive. But that's certainly not the case everywhere; sniping a scout in midair, killing someone with a melee weapon, catching someone with an unseen stickybomb, burning down a medic and his heavy...that normally impresses me.
3. My server list right now shows over 200 servers with ping under 100. Of those, 35 went past the server name space, but it just cuts off with a "..." there.

Yeah, exactly. Dude I don't know If you play the Xbox one, but he computer version is just fantastic. If you want to just run around, the same character as everyone else just killing each other, just like every shoot not TF2, then go play one of those.