nilcypher:
The examples you cite are all types of games that are traditionally long. Saying a sandbox game like GTA takes a long time to complete is like saying that fire is hot and grass is green. CoD4 can completed in an afternoon, as can Devil May Cry 4. I stopped buying fighting games because I was blasting through them in 20 minutes, even Bioshock, which I loved, didn't last very long.

I'd also like to know what RPGs have you been playing that take 60+ hours to complete? Oblivion probably has that much content, but to complete the main quest takes nowhere near that long. Mass Effect's main quest is about 10-12 long, with a large quantity of what amounts to filler.

But these games don't HAVE to be traditionally long. They are because developers think that's what's expected of them. Like you said, filler. There shouldn't be filler in a good game. How can a game receive rave reviews when it's mainly filler?

I've owned GTA 3 for about 6 years now and I've still not completed it. I've restarted about 5 times in the past, but it just takes so long... great game, but you get tired of hearing the same radio stations, doing the same missions and story dragging far too long. If GTA only took 15 hours to complete, and the things you did more varied, I'd buy them. I'm looking forward to getting Bioshock for its shortness. I'll also by CoD4 eventually. I'll just wait until the hype dies down.

As for RPGs that take 60+ hours, I'm mainly on about JRPGs from the PSX era. All the time I have to spend levelling... blah! Maybe they're shorter now, but I wouldn't know because I don't play the things anymore. Last RPGs I played have been Stella Deus and Disgaea: Hour of Darkness. The former I played for about 35 hours and was about 2/3 of the way through and got bored. Disgaea kept me to the end, and I spent over 60 hours before I could complete that the first time round.

And don't get me started on Western RPGs. Cliched sci-fi or Lord of the Rings crap. Argh! Can't stand it! No originality. Get away, evil ones!

Part of the blame goes to the Reviewers, Critics, and Gaming Journalism. They hype too damn much. Hype makes or breaks anything, and when you have games like saay.... this generation, reviewers look at number-crunching than gameplay. I have been playing games for probably 12 years of my 14 year life on multiple consoles and portables. Its more on hype, and mostly on bias. Its also of taste. If you don't like that game, thats because either you don't want it, or you are setting a certain benchmark. They aren't getting worse, its gaming journalism who pimp the titles too much on graphics and physics rather than gameplay.

buy teh haloz:
Part of the blame goes to the Reviewers, Critics, and Gaming Journalism. They hype too damn much. Hype makes or breaks anything, and when you have games like saay.... this generation, reviewers look at number-crunching than gameplay. I have been playing games for probably 12 years of my 14 year life on multiple consoles and portables. Its more on hype, and mostly on bias. Its also of taste. If you don't like that game, thats because either you don't want it, or you are setting a certain benchmark. They aren't getting worse, its gaming journalism who pimp the titles too much on graphics and physics rather than gameplay.

I think a few things are hurting games as the generations go on.

First, exclusivity (and EA), and I don't mean console. Games like Madden who have no competition. From the first Madden to probably Madden 2005, they got better every year. Recently, they've only gotten worse. Competition in the gaming world is important. And the more companies EA buys up, the worse games are going to get.

Second, a complete focus on 1st person gaming, especially in RPGs (specifically Western RPGs). It sort of makes for developing around graphics the priority, and then story and gameplay are stuck in a distant second and third. Honestly, Bioshock is an FPS. I'm sorry. I find it no different than Doom 3, other than being able to 'upgrade' yourself. GotY, that, IMO, is a complete joke. It was a pretty FPS, with some RPG elements. Take out the RPG elements, and you still have Bioshock.

JRPGs are a little different. I'm so looking forward to Disgaea 3, and FFXIII. They are sort of sticking with RPG in a traditional sense, and aren't (IMO) sacrificing themselves to the 'FPS in RPG Clothing' kick developers are on these days.

I still prefer Morrowing over Oblivion. I still prefer FFVII (hell, even FFX) over Bioshock.

Lastly, artificial length (insert joke here). Taking on fetch quests to add length. This isn't a new tactic, but it's something that ruins games. I LOVE games that are 60 hours long. 100 hours long, even. I only get to play maybe 10 hours a week, but if a game is going to last me 10 weeks, damn, that's great!

I'm actually looking forward to GTA IV. Big sprawling cities with limitless time wasting opportunities, now that's my kind of third person shooter!

I play games for fun. A game's story is, for me, an extra.

If i want a good story, i read a book. I don't play games expecting to be given a compelling story.

portuga-man:
I play games for fun. A game's story is, for me, an extra.

If i want a good story, i read a book. I don't play games expecting to be given a compelling story.

One man's trash is another man's Turning Point: Fall of Liberty, I suppose.

portuga-man:
I play games for fun. A game's story is, for me, an extra.

If i want a good story, i read a book. I don't play games expecting to be given a compelling story.

It depends on the genre. A JRPG really lives or dies by its story. I can think of several cases where the story helped me finish one with otherwise mediocre gameplay and a poorly told story made a game with fantastic gameplay at times hard to play through to the end.

chris100185:

It depends on the genre. A JRPG really lives or dies by its story. I can think of several cases where the story helped me finish one with otherwise mediocre gameplay and a poorly told story made a game with fantastic gameplay at times hard to play through to the end.

It's been a while since i played any jrpg, but if we are to talk about such particular case, then i'll have to say yes. jrpg's are getting worse with every generation, because stories are starting to get repetitive, or simply bland. There's nothing more to see in this particular genre, until someone starts giving a crap about the game instead of thinking on a cool name in latin.

portuga-man:
I play games for fun. A game's story is, for me, an extra.

If i want a good story, i read a book. I don't play games expecting to be given a compelling story.

That's like saying "I watch movies for the babes and 3D effects. A movie's story is, for me, an extra."

I know that it's your opinion. However, I, for one, want to have a reason to continue playing, besides the fact that it's fun (it gets redundant after a while too). I'd like to know how the world, protagonist, and/or party evolves and what kind of shit happens.

portuga-man:
I play games for fun. A game's story is, for me, an extra.

If i want a good story, i read a book. I don't play games expecting to be given a compelling story.

Well, sure, there are games I play just for fun, too, and couldn't care less about the story. But what's the point of playing an FPS, for example, with a crappy story or none at all? It's not like FPSs change much. There's tons of free maps for already existing FPSs, so new maps can't be it either.
If I play a single-player game that's supposedly telling a story (and almost every FPS out there pretends to do so with the exception of online shooters) I want that story to be at least acceptable. It doesn't have to be deep, it should just keep me entertained. But most cheap zombie movies have a more "compelling" storyline than many multi-million dollar games.

You fail my good sir.

After doing some thinking I realized that games are getting better but it's just the fact of being so attached to one genre of games. Now there are two steps to this soulution.

1. Try playing all different types of genre's, even those rather mistaken childish games. I think of them as Fun and Random pieces of brilliance.

2. Not that i'm pointing to you, but I think there's also the matter of having a variatey of hobbie's considering if you live in the northern hemisphere because spring is coming ( Sorry for those who live in the southern ).

Videogames are not getting worser, people just tend to get duller.

NOTE: If there is anyone to blame it's those dull gamer's. If there is anything to blame it's the delay's.

I hope this clear's this whole problem up for you and it does work. Plus if this dosen't work out I suggest you see a theropist ( NOT that your crazy ) and tell him/her that you need help socializing (Apply's to step 2)

Good luck :)

Well we do live in this bizzare age of bad remakes. adaptions and hyped franchises. The technology has gotten better and with that I think we all expect better games, look back and think of the great games you've played, Grim Fandango, Yoshi's Island, Fallout, No One Lives Forever, Jade Empire, Blood, and then think of all the crap you didnt play. Pure gold spears handcrafted by Thor come to us very rarely and let's not forget that we all have different tastes, the big problem is graphics. People focus more on graphics now than ever and im not talking about the developers (except the cunts behind Crysis, damn what a trainwreck on a bridge of a game that was).

The gamers excpect that the inovation and gameplay should match the brilliance of the graphics, I remember when I was young and playing Ocarina of Time thinking that 3D graphics could never become better than this! But it most assuredly did, but innovation and gameplay doesnt age as well as graphics some people still try and get slammed for it, others (the ones who make the fat bucks) just reuse old concepts and pleases the drunk 360 frat boy audience, but the great people at companies like Lionhead and especially Valve not only push the envelope but actually does quite extraordinary technological strides as they do it.

So those mindblowing gems are not only rare but also have to fit your individual tastes or gaming style, so the gaming industy is not going downhill it's just becoming popular meaning perhaps more good games but the gems are still as rare as ever. Think most just feel it's all going to shit because of games like Crysis, Halo, Gears of War or other borderline-homoerotic american manly FPS games getting undeserved attention because of their general all-around apeal yet mediocre to terrible gameplay.

portuga-man:

chris100185:

It depends on the genre. A JRPG really lives or dies by its story. I can think of several cases where the story helped me finish one with otherwise mediocre gameplay and a poorly told story made a game with fantastic gameplay at times hard to play through to the end.

It's been a while since i played any jrpg, but if we are to talk about such particular case, then i'll have to say yes. jrpg's are getting worse with every generation, because stories are starting to get repetitive, or simply bland. There's nothing more to see in this particular genre, until someone starts giving a crap about the game instead of thinking on a cool name in latin.

I agree that JRPGs are getting worse every gen but that's only cause theres so much to live up to from the previous gen. 16 bit was the golden age of JRPGs and the 32/64 bit gen had little hope of matching it, but it put up a damn good fight, and last gen while not as good as that gen, still had some games which easily top my list of some of my favorite games ever.

buy teh haloz:
Part of the blame goes to the Reviewers, Critics, and Gaming Journalism. They hype too damn much.

Not really. Game companies give reviewers copies of games before the gaming market. Considering how film critics are showered with gifts for good reviews, I wouldn't be surprised if the same kind of bribary happens in the gaming world.

We all know that Gamespot fired one of their critics for talking the truth. What makes you think other reviewers for professional gaming sites and mags would be telling the truth? After all, Gamespot appears to be the only magazine not afraid to give a score of less than 7/10 these days.

I agree that JRPGs are getting worse every gen but that's only cause theres so much to live up to from the previous gen.

I disagree. 1. There's too many of them. 2. they're far more generic now than they were, or at least the stories, art style and stereotypes are more established.

I'd LOVE to see more JRPGs tackle other subjects such as rascism, homophobia, the effects of death and war in more detail, but instead they always play it safe with their "we form a group, we save the world against a monster straight out of the Godzilla films fromt he 50's" molarky.

Disgaea: Hours of Darkness got rav reviews, and sold pretty decently across the whole world, despite being from a smaller developer, and it was because they put a new spin and style on things. This is what other JRPG developers need to do.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and we should burn down SquareEnix and all Final Fantasy employees. Enough is enough. Final Fantasy should be banned, and Final Fantasy fans hunted down. They give RPGs a bad name.

The problem with this entire thread is how subjective the concept of game quality is. The OP mentions that he was bored by BioShock, which is merely one game from what could be conservatively described as a crapload of great games last fall.

But if you forced me to take a side, I'd say the games are better. There aren't any perfect games, but the quantity of top tier games has never been higher. Now instead of playing Super Mario World and Sonic the Hedgehog ad nauseum, we can split our time amongst a half dozen better titles (or at the very least, titles which are easier to beat).

Well which Jrpgs are you playing? I think that there are probably some Jrpgs that even when released in the western world are not really picked up because Squareenix has all but cornered the western market when it comes to Jrpgs. Although occassionally Square will release a non Final Fantasy RPG that is not crap (Vagrant Story, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Suikoden (I think they make that but I cannot remember.),Front Mission. ) Then there are companies like Monolith that did Xenosaga, and Atlus (Dear god if you like any of their games you absolutely must buy them within five months, these bastards seem to only make enough copies to last half a year then the game becomes impossible to find in stores. I had to resort to Ebay to get a copy of Persona 3 which I only bought because in the States the Japanese special edition was the only edition released and it came with an artbook and OST. I'm actually waiting for Persona 3 FES to come out as that version contains some bug fixes and an extra episode.) and let us not forget Game Republic which is responsible for Folklore. (It's probably more of an action rpg though.) It's not Jrpgs that are getting worse its the fucking Final Fantassy franchise that is getting worse. It started with 8 and picked up steam (in terms of going downhill.) with 9 and just went straight to hell after that; its sad too since Square is in fact capable of making good rpgs.

I'm sorry to say, but hasn't this been discussed a dozen of times before here? The first five minutes I thought this was an old thread, but reading it more revealed that it is an new thread with the same old opinions ;)

though from what I saw, it's good that more people seem to realize shitty games are from all times, and luckily, gems are as well.

I wouldn't exactly say that games are getting worse, mind you. What I think is happening (and this has come along with how popular video games have become) is that games are more about the WOW factor these days. It's obvious how games have been getting "bigger" in terms of production values and it's all over the place. You see these dramatic and very polished previews (most of which are cut scenes, not even in-game previews) all over the TV and internet, televised "game awards" and A LOT OF HYPE. Again, it is very easy to see that games these days are out there to impress rather than entertain (some actually do end up giving you entertainment). Just look at the way a lot of games start off rather impressively and as you progress you realize that the game kind of builds down instead of building up to a grand finale (that kind of "build up" was something that we saw a lot in the early to mid 90's) because a lot of devs. think that it's more than enough to blow you away at the beggining in order to grab you all the way through the end of the game. Now I can't speek for younger gamers, but a lot of older gamers I know (myself included) are not at all impressed with how "big" the gaming indusrty has become, it's rather annoying to be honest.

someone said burn SE and FF fans? I agree! Let's do that. I'm sorry but announcing 6 chapters of FF13 before it even comes out? You milk it before the 1st episode? You really crossed the line there. Even Nintendo won't advertise Mario Party 34 before releasing Mario Party 26.

hmm...racism....yeah I'm getting on that in my plot actually. Homophobia.....hmm.....I'll HAVE to add that in. I do have a gay character in it....he's the badass (no pun intended) character. I was intending on everyone being afraid of him anyways since he's a violent demon warrior that went through genetic experiments by the badguys (I figured gays needed a kick-ass character instead of the stereotype for once) but I guess an alterior motive for being afraid of him is good. And before someone says it...yes, the genetic whatever stuff is cliched. One of teh characters always pokes fun at how much they seem like a game cast.

Giygas
I am a old time FPSer and new games are mostly a insult to themes and designs I know they can do better with, Quake 4 is a watered down mash of a game and so is BS they can do better but they do not have to thus I boycott the industry as much as I can, they will not be getting my money directly unless they put the time and effort into a project that makes it a great and fun game to play.

Quietwulf
BS is a antiquated nightmare, Dark messiah dose more things with gameplay mechanic and AI than BS can dream of, BS is just another rushed unfinished production made by pubs and devs looking for the next big random hit.

ComradeJim27
I call BS
I call a spade a spade quality dose not has to change to suit the needs of the mindless masses, this is what has decimated quality in comic/tv/ect films and the more games fall to cater to the mindless horde without offering better control options I will just be forced to ensure not any of my money goes to them directly!

Sylocat / ComradeJim27

I call BS again look at the release dates of games like Duke 3D,blood,Qauke Quake 2 great games in short time spans you can even say Duex ex,undying and Arx faltails, or anything great to good game, great games are not being worked on anymore they have been side tracked and bought off to be watered down and rereleased for the pabulum sipping drooling masses.

This is the current trouble with gaming not just FPSers they are focusing on to wide a market and the result is not putting a lot of quality and polish into the majority of productions add to that the cost of production and the inflated need to stay in super high graphics and ignore control options games are not getting better they truly are getting worse but not a total loss worse it just means theres just a wider gap of good/great to bad/mediocre.

Now that consoles have usurped PC gaming in overall gaming focus everyone needs to set new control standards, I want full button mapping on all games I want to be able to swap analog sticks when I want to and change all the buttons when I want to I would like to just plug in a KB and mouse (it can be the console makers brand that only works on their consoles for all I care I want it and will pay for it as lon as I get full buton mapping).

IMO control over the control is the biggest issue today looks at Yahtzee review of Turok , it's called options people games need them now more than ever.

Mitsoxfan
I hate BS because it supposed to be a FPS with RPG elements but they have done was take a fantastic series (system shock) remove everything that made the game great (sats, equipment, weapons, random ambushes,deep level design) and cook it in a pot with enough water to drown a cow.

IMO Dark messiah(arx fatalis 2) is the last great FPS RPG, TES is a RPG in FP so it does not count FO3 probably won't count either and hopefully it won't suck like oblivion did....

FF12/Jrpg rant
Outside of the level design and some parts of the new live action battle system FF12 is a fckign bore it's not the dialog or the characters but the gameplay, without gambit presets resetting them is cumbersome without being able to equip 3 or 4 accessories at a time the boring equipment system drags the game down the broken skill/class system makes it even worse.

I can't even finished DQ8 because it's a fcking incessant grind theres no fun in the gameplay, I have come to realization that 90% of Jrpgs are grind whores made to keep you playing for no good reason.

FF4,6 and 9 were FUN to play FF8 destroyed the equipment system and FFX was meek outside of the grid system and customization came too late to really save it IMO.

laikenf:
I wouldn't exactly say that games are getting worse, mind you. What I think is happening (and this has come along with how popular video games have become) is that games are more about the WOW factor these days. It's obvious how games have been getting "bigger" in terms of production values and it's all over the place. You see these dramatic and very polished previews (most of which are cut scenes, not even in-game previews) all over the TV and internet, televised "game awards" and A LOT OF HYPE. Again, it is very easy to see that games these days are out there to impress rather than entertain (some actually do end up giving you entertainment). Just look at the way a lot of games start off rather impressively and as you progress you realize that the game kind of builds down instead of building up to a grand finale (that kind of "build up" was something that we saw a lot in the early to mid 90's) because a lot of devs. think that it's more than enough to blow you away at the beggining in order to grab you all the way through the end of the game. Now I can't speek for younger gamers, but a lot of older gamers I know (myself included) are not at all impressed with how "big" the gaming indusrty has become, it's rather annoying to be honest.

And this is why I no longer give my money to to new games they are making fly by night games with lil to no depth or support and want full price for them, I am sorry I would rather pirate the industry as it is than support it in any fashion, at least used game prices halve very 3-8 months so buying used is still viable until more PC publishers put on draconian protections to prevent the sale of used goods....

general Adelfried:
Nigga plz.

I can rant more you know ^_~

Okay, I am not going to read this entire thread, mostly because it's 3AM and I have had quite a few whiskeys and scotches, so I apologize if something I am about to say has been said before. But I had a deep desire to post on this thread.

I understand what the original poster was saying, games these days seem to be "easier" than older games were. I wouldn't say most are more shallow than the older generations though. Bioshock actually was quite deep, although it was incredibly easy with its vita chambers, it had a great story, and a very neat twist. S.T.A.L.K.E.R was definately not shallow, nor easy, it was a great game, had a great story, and was a blast to play. The Half-Life series has a wonderfully deep story, and great gameplay.

The problem with modern day games is (and I hate to steal it from Yahtzee but here it goes) they try too hard to follow Halo. Halo was a huge hit (I don't know why) and they made an ass ton of money, and since then most games try to emulate Halo way too much.

A problem right know is huge corporations like EA own a lot of the gaming companies. And a company like that doesn't want to take chances with new game types/game features and recreates the same crap that's sold year after year. The only thing that will stop this is more tiny companies like Valve was 10 years ago, pushing the envelope and trying something new, then ultimately creating something wonderful.

Ultimately I think this whole thing is an artifact of the societal changes over the past few years, and that's a whole new topic in particular. Going back and playing older games on the Wii Virtual Console that I used to enjoy as a kid it reminds me how much harder older games were than now.

Kontar:
Okay, I am not going to read this entire thread, mostly because it's 3AM and I have had quite a few whiskeys and scotches, so I apologize if something I am about to say has been said before. But I had a deep desire to post on this thread.

I understand what the original poster was saying, games these days seem to be "easier" than older games were. I wouldn't say most are more shallow than the older generations though. Bioshock actually was quite deep, although it was incredibly easy with its vita chambers, it had a great story, and a very neat twist. S.T.A.L.K.E.R was definately not shallow, nor easy, it was a great game, had a great story, and was a blast to play. The Half-Life series has a wonderfully deep story, and great gameplay.

The problem with modern day games is (and I hate to steal it from Yahtzee but here it goes) they try too hard to follow Halo. Halo was a huge hit (I don't know why) and they made an ass ton of money, and since then most games try to emulate Halo way too much.

A problem right know is huge corporations like EA own a lot of the gaming companies. And a company like that doesn't want to take chances with new game types/game features and recreates the same crap that's sold year after year. The only thing that will stop this is more tiny companies like Valve was 10 years ago, pushing the envelope and trying something new, then ultimately creating something wonderful.

Ultimately I think this whole thing is an artifact of the societal changes over the past few years, and that's a whole new topic in particular. Going back and playing older games on the Wii Virtual Console that I used to enjoy as a kid it reminds me how much harder older games were than now.

Gaming has been moving in the hollywoodized direction since 02, look at Doom 3,duex ex 2 and other games the focus is maximum sales as quickly as possible at the cost of quality and polish.

Also the hollwoodiztion factor waters down quality and polish in favor of severing the masses watered down fiction.

Look at what they constantly do to game and comic films this is happening to internal game design from options to mechanics its gutting gaming as we know it.

Really, there have been a similar ratio of bad-to-good games since Mario Brothers days.
I think the reasons problems with games are more obvious now are
1: There are more aspects to the games in which to blow money, get too focused on in development, or screw up, and
2: there are many more games with aspects similar to those before. We've all seen the space marine FPS, so any new ones have to be damn-near perfect to garner any attention.
I think a thing to look forward to is the fact that our generation of gamers now has easier access to game development software, and if what I've seen is any indication, this is a good thing.

The consumer knows what he wants, and if the consumer is the producer, well, you won't have a sharper critic or more attentive developer. Look at what happened with Quentin Tarantino and movies. He went from fan to creator, and, as he sat on the receiving end so long, had a clearer idea of what to do and what not to do.

I look forward to the day our generation is at the helm of game (and movie) creation.
Hopefully we'll still remember what's fun and what's frustrating at that point.

Games are selling like crack nowadays. Does that make games better then they once where? No I don't think so.

I think games are similar to movies in the sense that people say that the quality of movies are declining yet people are always going to the movies.

It seems that if your favourite game ever (and I mean all time favourite) was an older game then all other games are going to come out short. Hence all new games (because they can't live up) are not good.

But if you had someone whos favourite game ever was more recent (lets say CoD4), then older games would not appeal to this person, even if they had grown up with gaming since the early days.

If you were replying to my post, then I'm not sure you got my meaning.
Yes, it is true what you say about people making a game into something it's not in memory, but didn't we all do that to Ghostbusters or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? You know what I mean.
That's just pure human behavior, comes in anywhere.

On the objective side, I used the comparison between movies and games to say that in both fields, although there is a flood of bad product, there is also a flood of people trying to fix the problems who are straining to get good product on the market. When the first generation of consumer-creators (first I know of was Quentin Tarantino, though no, I don't worship him,) gets through, we'll get a wave of much more enjoyable product in general. Their needs are our needs, and they have the power to make our ideals into games. Then we'll have our turn at bat.