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Press Junketeer  Posts: 374 Joined: 13 Jul 2006     | |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 352 Joined: 20 Dec 2007   | Oblivion was fun but its problem was that it was too forgiving. psychopathic killer? 2000gold please. What? you say you hate me? well you'll have to play the wheel of whether i like you or not!Hey the emperor's son is being attacked! oh well He's essential so he can't die. In Morrowind Every other NPC would slash your throat if you so much as looked at them (one literally did/tried to). |
Muckraker Posts: 306 Joined: 24 Nov 2007  |
It was just too damn shallow. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1219 Joined: 14 Sep 2007  | Unlike practically everyone else on this board, I quite like Oblivion. It's all I've been playing for the past few weeks. People criticize it's difficulty, but forgive me for enjoying a game where I've got a good chance to beat a monster that attacks me. Occasionally, I can feel quite attached to certain characters. Vilenus Donton, for example. He was a teenage Fighters Guild trainee who aspired to become a great warrior. Around the this time, by Guild standards, you are a great warrior, so who better to show him around a cave full of beasties? You and him go in, fight some ogres, good times. Later, you get another mission. Apparently, he had gone with a patrol into a cave to attack some trolls, but hasn't been back since. When you eventually find his corpse, it's with his diary. It recounts that he had been quite happy to be relieved of the boredom of polishing boots day in, day out. But in the cave, they were ambushed by Blackwood Company. Trolls had given them a hard time too. The only survivor, he had crawled into a secluded area of the cave awaiting aid. You can understand what a pain it was for me, then, when I read the last two lines of his diary: "I hear trolls. I'm sorry mother." I was mortified. This kid had wanted to be a hero, and now he was troll food. It was this moment in the game that had really stuck out for me. Yeah, I like Oblivion. I shan't be moved on the point. |
BANNED  Posts: 38 Joined: 6 Feb 2008  |
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BANNED Posts: 38 Joined: 6 Feb 2008 |
i know! its a FPG! |
Anonymous Source Posts: 7 Joined: 20 Mar 2008 | No emotional attachment to any characters I used in Oblivion. Oblivion did nothing for me except looking pretty. After becoming |
BANNED Posts: 38 Joined: 6 Feb 2008 | I think everyone should know that oblivion is a great game. dont you people feel satisfied when you PWN some troll thats been screwing you for hours. the happiness in completing the main quest and everyone loving you... the game is awesome. there is also the cave crawling. i dont like caves in games, but the oblivion ones intrigue me... what valuable aylied artifact will i find: a crown... a varla stone, maybe... a sweet staff of flame... many possibilities. i also get big scares in caves. for example, the boreal stone cave is empty, but i cant stay there any longer then 1 minute, because i feel something messy will happen to me. and when characters die, i feel sad. for example, i got pissed when they killed lucien lechance. but well, he was a traitor, right? WRONG! he wasnt. it was some other grasshole that has his mothers decomposing head in is home... issues... or in the mages guild quest, where you must find the informant and your frind gets squished by a booby trap. the game makes me feel allot of things. its awesome. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1219 Joined: 14 Sep 2007 |
Yeah... This isn't wit, it's a higher form of stupidity. First. Person. Shooter. Shooter. There's not a single weapon in the game that shoots, unless you think staves and bows are vital aspects of gunplay. If you want to say that Oblivion's action is samey and bland and lacking depth much like an FPS, then say it. Don't burst out a statement that's deliberately wrong. |
Paperboy  Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Dec 2007 | I'm another person that's going to have to come down on the side of Oblivion. I think part of the hate comes from the fact that people don't look at the logic behind some of the design choices. Take the imortal quest characters. Annoying if you want to kill them yes, but if I'm playng legitimately I don't want to find my next contact in the main quest got killed 3 hours ago by a troll and the only way to continue would be to start over. The problem with characterisation is that people think they are good judges of personality. In truth however humans are generally very poor at judgeing personality. In games like Mass Effect and Neverwinter Nights characters basically force feed you infomation about themselves surprisingly easily. Character in Oblivion won't just serve you up a biography about themselves to you on a silver platter, you have to dig for it. For example, I think it was for Vilentius Dalton, if you read his diary it reveals that he was gay. There are other such 'easter eggs' that are present in game, but you have to actually earn them. There were lots of instances that I found very interesting or enthralling. After commiting a minor crime I spoke to a guard, and he offered to take the bounty off my head. Nice. The Dark Brotherhood quests are some of the best quest in the game emotion wise. When I go to Bravil I get alot of people slagging of the Duke. The good stuff is there, you just have to look for it. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 770 Joined: 2 Jan 2008    |
I played a mage, actually. /wink - J |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 59 Joined: 21 Feb 2008 | Using Oblivion as your basis. I have been through Cyrodiil five times. Five characters of all different types, classes and designs. Strangely, my emotional connection wasn't very strong for them...UNTIL I started the DLC for the game. The Shivering Isle content was great. Sure it was bug heavy, and the basic mechanics of the game were the same as the game proper. But, it made it interesting by being unique. I remember there is a part where you have to decide the outcome of these three adventurers by the push of a button(both fates are terrible in their own way), but the way it plays out, you stand on elevated ground and watch as your choice effects the NPC's. I remember watching the first die(you go through the scenario three times), and seriously feeling horrible for what I had done. So I tried to make it better by pushing the other button, knowing that most likely it was going to be bad. It was. Once it was all said and done, I got(in my opinion) the best weapon in the game, but I gave it a rest for the rest of the weekend. Up till that point, I had murdered, stolen, abused and tricked a multitude of characters within the game's confines. But that portion of the game bothered me emotionally. After that, the character I was playing became more important to me. I know it sounds nuts but that's the way it felt. So I would say that emotional attachment isn't so much derived from the type of RPG(FPS-RPG, Turn-based-RPG...whatever) It was the way the developers conveyed the content that had the most dynamic effect. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 59 Joined: 21 Feb 2008 |
Jeez. It's the battle as old as time itself. Can't we just agree that Oblivion was a FPRPG. There is no arguing the fact that it was an RPG based on the elements of game play. But the game was PLAYED in the first person. Or the severely un-fleshed out third person. Why...WHY is it so hard for us to come together as a people and just except the game for the hybrid it is?! This guy's thread has become like the 'Original Fallout vs New Fallout battle'. It'll never end...EVER!!! Can't we all just get along? |
Paperboy Posts: 15 Joined: 14 Aug 2007 |
Actualy it is an RPG. If you were atal good at the game youd notice the following: 1. you can play in 3PS or FPS this is changeable playing style on to the actual topic, i finished oblivion yesterday (the main story line) and no, sorry i didnt feal attached to my character. i have heard alot about the witcher tho, goan star playing that soon |
Paperboy Posts: 42 Joined: 3 Feb 2008 | I've played Oblivion quite a bit, and it could be because I was an archer hero, but I could never get along with anyone at all. Every single 'ally' in the game vowed to jump in front of my arrows giving me the idea they were all depraved suicidal morons. When I'm alone and could get off a clean shot I could observe the enemy's health bar barely even flinch... I was shooting the best arrows there are on the best bow available and still the bits of health I chipped off were smaller then with my rusty iron bow. Now in a degree it's understandable you have to make the environment harder for the player, but this is insane. The better your armor and weapons get would mean you'd become a bit less squishy, but your enemies advanced at such a pace you actually became more squishy over the levels. Again, this could be because I'm an archer and archers suck bigtime. But outside of that I could only think "no rest for the wicked" as you were yet again sent to some harsh place nobody ever came out alive, to find yourself chased by zombies that take 5 minutes of arrow-shooting mayhem to nail. You were always sent of to do impossible things, havin short moments to revel in your glory, become arena grand champion, rob somebody or feel somewhat attached to the moron that is you. I can't help but feeling I get more stupid by the level, as I had more and more trouble keeping my enemies at bay. Morrowind au contraire suffered from the opposite. You could slit someone's throat with a hatchet if you liked and rob their place of everything valuable. Thus massacring your way through capital cities and later on through ruins of various types you'd find various nice goodies to take. As training progressed enemies did become easier... and easier... and easier... till you could hop from rooftop to rooftop, oneshotting every guard in sight, gain death warrants with every faction and be some kind of God, leaping great distances and headshotting everyone. And this wouldn't leave, as you'd be turning even the hardest enemies into minced meat. In conclusion I'd say I felt more attached to my Morrowind divine being of power then my Oblivion moron of epic proportions. And now I need some coffee |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 770 Joined: 2 Jan 2008 |
Your incredibly eloquent argument has certainly put me in my place. Yes sir. - J |
Paperboy Posts: 15 Joined: 14 Aug 2007 |
Yea, sorry i was a bit direct |
Paperboy Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Mar 2008 | I like the idea behind this topic. I'm not quite as keen about the whole let's bitch about the viewpoint in oblivion side of it. (although the sarcasm of tiredinnuendo is appreciated) I spent around 150 hours in Oblivion, and I have to say I don't look back on it all that fondly. Sure, whilst you're wasting you life on it it's more addictive than Pringles but after you've finished the main quest and all four guilds, you realise that there wasn't much there. Yes, I enjoyed the combat, and the open world, and all that. Many people have called the game linear, and whilst I don't totally agree, it is true that the order in which you do any of the quests changes nothing. You can basically do things in any order, but that order is irrelevant. You most certainly cannot 'do anything'. For that reason, the game is a lot less open than it initially appears. There were also a lot of little bits that were great, or little nuggets on info that were interesting, but really, the main hunks of the game were underinspiring. I didn't feel more than a passing attachment to any of the characters, and certainly not to my own character. Partly this was the lousy dialogue, largely it was the repetitive voice acting but mostly it was because the game was spread too thinly. What I mean by that is that by having the one 'main' quest (with the shittiest ending I have ever seen), and 4 guilds, the game spreads it's length (hoho) over 5 different stories. Whereas a game with just the one storyline, such as most JRPGs as such have 5 times as long to build up emotions relating to other characters. In addition, because you're not going to give a crap about your own character unless there is some kind of meaningful interaction with others, you end up not giving a damn about him/her either. So on the one hand, Oblivion has this 'open' world, and then on the other, we have JRGs, with a more linear approach. But by giving the player so much choice, and by the very nature of the quest system itself, Oblivion sacrifices a character back story, a meaningful and involving quest and relations with any other characters. Compare that with say, FF7 (or many other similar games). By preventing access to large portions of the world map due to transport constraints, the game was able to deliver set pieces and plot reveals at the right moment without the player wandering into them. Similarly, the Bioware RPGs (I have to be careful as I haven't played Jade Empire) do this same thing by revealing the location of new planets etc. It is a linear story, dotted with side missions. Interestingly, Bioware also allows character customisation (a la oblivion) but not at the expense of a back story. If I had to pitch my flag, I'd put it solidly in the Bioware/JRPG camp, just because to me, an RPG should be all about the story, and with Oblivion's I just didn't give a shit. And if anyone read all of that I'd be amazed. And I want co-authorship on your essay. |
Paperboy Posts: 15 Joined: 21 Mar 2008 | Or in summary: Oblivion sacrificed attachment and story for an open game world. However, due to the quest system, the world really wasn't that open because there wasn't much you could do and it didn't matter what order you did it in anyway. Therefore, you may as well make your RPG non-open from the start and have a good story, like Bioware and JRPGs do. Goddamnit why didn't I just type that in the first place... |
Beat Writer  Posts: 172 Joined: 13 Feb 2008 | Hmm, I never felt too attached to the NPCs in Oblivion - although it was very touching, reading Vilenus Donton's journal during the Fighter's guild arc. I think he may have also been experienceing feelings for a fellow guildmate, who was in the cave with him, but that's neither here nor there. Aside from that, I couldn't help but feel rather detatched from the other NPCs. After all, they never did anything for you - it was all take, take, take. |
Muckraker  Posts: 255 Joined: 12 Sep 2007  | I always build a backstory for my characters when I play western RPGs. When the story demands that they do something weird, I work it into their backstory and personality. As a result, western RPGs feel a lot more like real storytelling than JRPGs, in which the entire story is completely outside your control, and every detail of every character is spoon-fed to the player. My character in Oblivion had to go through a real inner journey to go from being a xenophobic Temple fundamentalist into a hero. She actually fell in love with Martin Septim. This was not in the game, this was my character's personal experience of what happened. The game provided the canvas for me to create my character's story. In real RPGs, you roleplay. That's what the RP in RPG stands for. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 166 Joined: 5 Mar 2008 |
Ahh this is exactly what i wanted to hear :) thanks |
Paperboy Posts: 32 Joined: 14 Nov 2007 | A friend of mine was very upset when he got to the point where he had to wipe out the Dark Brotherhood. He kept saying "Do I really have to", he liked them. |
Paperboy Posts: 33 Joined: 22 Mar 2008 | I've developed emotional attachments to characters and events in a wide variety of RPGs, and also some of the better action games, like the characters of Halo or Halflife 2 (Which I enjoy more on a story level)... But Oblivion? No, the game feels like a dream.. All the characters feel like cheap, manipulative reflections of one another, whose words and actions make little sense, yet seem to be compelling you to a predestined and creepy path involving men in red robes and deaf guardsmen. A bad specific example to use in comparison there. On the other hand, I felt emotionally connected to the more tragic events of the mass-killing sort in Final Fantasy VIII, once again on a story level rather than gameplay, so I don't think I can differentiate between Western and Japanese/Asian RPG ethics in terms of my emotional connection. I'd say I develop the strongest attachments to characters, though, in hybrids between RPG and action. The RPG provides the character depth and long term interactivity, granting a character realistic enough to care for, and a commitment in which your choices can effect them, while the FPS or third person action provides immediate and significant influence by fighting with and against these characters. Many RPGs lose a lot on the immersion front by simply locking you in a world too peaceful, controlled, and predictable, with little way to immediately interact in a significant manner (Thus the popularity of titles like Fallout, where you really can, mid-story, just decide to massacre an entire town!). Edit: "You have my ear, citizen!" |
Muckraker Posts: 306 Joined: 24 Nov 2007 |
No. Oblivion does not make me feel good when I kill something, because it's just another monster adjusted for my level. Finding loot is not exciting, becuase I can't get the best stuff until leveling up. The love of NPCs is meaningless, because they're all idiots. The main quest lacks any sense of urgency. In a way, I envy you for being able to get pleasure from these things.
Have you ever played Morrowind? You could kill quest characters in Morrowind, but guess what? It worked fine. The game would IMMEDIATELY tell you if you had broken the main quest by killing someone, and suggest that you load a game from before you did it. The reason characters in Oblivion are like you say is because they are poorly done, not because Bethesda thought it would be more realistic. For the most part, it doesn't matter how much you dig for more, there's nothing there. There is no personality to judge. There is no biography. There is only "I saw a mudcrab the other day!". This is laziness on Bethesda's part, not an attempt to make characters deep. Notice how you have to read a journal in the example you mentioned? That's because it was much easier for the developers to just throw that in there than it would be to actually have it play out in a genuinely dramatic manner. |
Paperboy  Posts: 28 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 | I also like very early on in Oblivion, the first monk you see in Weynon Priory has a letter to his mother about the emperor. There's also two crumpled up drafts where he comes off very angry towards her, as opposed to the nice version. That was good for a laugh. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 361 Joined: 7 Nov 2007 | If you get emotionally attached to a game then theres something wrong with your real life This is the point when you actually go out and get a gf. If you already have one, then obviously the relationship isn't going to well is it. |
Muckraker  Posts: 256 Joined: 24 Feb 2008 |
I know tons of women who get emotional over movies...so male gamers can't do the same thing for a game? |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 7 Joined: 24 Mar 2008 | I sort of got attached as I had some pride that my highest levelled character was practically invincible in the world, other than that though the last mission for the thieves guild where you have to sneak into the imperial palace and steal the fourth Elder Scroll is the most tense I have ever been and the most fun I have ever had in that game. It has to be done with a stealth based character the experiance is ruined somewhat if you use the invisibility spell though. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 361 Joined: 7 Nov 2007 |
but movies generally have really people in - breathing p |
So... your paper is about players' emotions in specific RPGs, namely Oblivion as the case study of a Western RPG? Hmmm...
Well, from my experience on researching the subject, the key ingredient for evoking emotion from the player is empathy. If you can't connect with your character and/or the NPCs that populate the game world, you can't become emotionally attached. Your actions, essentially, become devoid of any moral obligations and only serve to achieve an arbitrary end-goal.
I tried to enjoy Oblivion, but after 20 or so hours, I quit playing. I was constantly distracted by the horrific character modeling that was oddly a step backwards from Morrowind in many cases; dare I say Arena as well? Also, the landscape and dungeons were too repetitive and the quest reward system punished you for completing tasks at early levels. Of course, I also had some high hopes for the Radiant AI which amounted to a big waste of development time as a simple script could have been made, with a fraction of the system resources being used, to the same result.
Basically, the only "constructive" thing I can say about Oblivion is that it presented too many obstacles to truly grab me and pull me into it's cliche medieval world. If I were to make an open ended RPG that focused on gripping the player emotionally, I would make a smaller world that's more meaningful and ensure the world changes and reacts to player input. Perhaps Fable 2 will be a good example of a better design? Hell, the first Fable trumps Oblivion, in my book.
Also, if western RPGs are what you're looking for, Bioware's offerings are a much better case study for emotional impact upon players. Even the earlier Baldur's Gate games destroy Oblivion when it comes to making the player care one way or another about NPCs.
I hate Oblivion and Bethesda needs to adopt a new mantra... let's try "quality over quantity." ;-)