I've been trying to be less confrontational lately, but when I hear self-styled "hardcore" gamers bashing the Wii because they say "Nintendo sold out to the casual gamer," it gets my goat.

Let's talk about game history for a moment. In the "good ol' days" that so many people get nostalgic about, there was no "hardcore" gaming. Video games had their origins as fluffy distractions, and taking video games seriously was considered slightly less laughable than taking board games seriously (imagine someone calling themselves a "hardcore Monopoly player"). Yes, there were a lot of shut-ins who spent half their lives in their rooms playing games, but there were no "official" tournaments. Compare that to now, when "casual" is considered a dirty word, having been abandoned by gamers in favor of UT3-style gun-fest games.

When did fun become such a bad thing?

Let's look at a few symptoms of this "hardcore" craze that has swept gaming:

1. The FPS glut. With the exception of Portal, and the POSSIBLE (and I mean possible) exception of Bioshock, it's a rare occasion on which I see any two FPS that I CAN tell apart. I fail to see any significant difference between 90% of the FPS fads squandering the market now, and yet shooters are the only kinds of games getting the spotlight now. Self-proclaimed "hardcore" gamers look down their noses at anyone who doesn't happen to be gaga over the latest FPS hitting shelves for 15 minutes, and claim that every other type of game is "for kids."

2. PC/console snobbery. I can think of few things more pathetic than someone proclaiming the superiority of a PC to a console because FPS are better on a computer (it having never occurred to them that there is more to gaming than just online FPS tournaments, see #1 above), or someone loudly protesting that the PS3 or X360 is better than the other and that they're both better than the Wii, because games for the other fella's console are "casual games."

3. "Realism." I am talking about this obsession with realism in guns, and the obsession with making graphics look lifelike (which, in many cases, means making everything on the screen A: various shades of brown, and B: as shiny and bloom-filled as possible). I will NEVER understand anyone who thinks that video games are supposed to be realistic. Or who thinks that movies are supposed to be realistic, or books or anything else. Fiction is invented to help people ESCAPE from reality, not to reproduce it.

I just don't understand what all this is supposed to be in aid of. Why has pompous "hardcore" snobbery become a badge of pride?

title edited for spelling

-mod

I like all sorts of games, wii, pc, "hardcore fps" games and "casual" games like peggle.

I don't think casual gaming is a bad thing if my mom can get into wii sports bowling.

Well...look at Peggle or other very popular casuals.Why bother spending millions of dollars to develop a mainstream game(that might be a flop, too) if you can get 10 people, make a casual game(Barely any costs) and still get a shit load of profit.

And regarding the Wii and DS - it's not about them having "casual games",it's about them having "shit casual games"aka Shovelware.

I rarely see anything in the way of complaints or bashing of "Casual" games... I for one like them. Some of my more enjoyable titles are simplistic mind-numbers like Gearheads, Astro Rock, and of course, Naked Tetris.

Sylocat:

2. PC/console snobbery. I can think of few things more pathetic than someone proclaiming the superiority of a PC to a console because FPS are better on a computer (it having never occurred to them that there is more to gaming than just online FPS tournaments, see #1 above)

I want to comment on this specifically.

First let me say, I love PC gaming, but I'm not one of those "LOL UR NOT ON PC!!!!11 NOOBS" type. I also love my consoles. But I simply want to state that I not only think the mouse is better for FPS games, but I'm truly more comfortable with a mouse and keyboard on pretty much any genre you can name. Yes, even races, yes even 3rd person games like PoP. Plus, RTS games are just not suited for consoles.

the ONLY time I want a controller is when playing old school NES/SNES/SEGA games or playing a fighter.

I don't really know where I was going with this.

JakubK666:

And regarding the Wii and DS - it's not about them having "casual games",it's about them having "shit casual games"aka Shovelware.

Which really is more a crack at developers trying to cash in on the newest fad rather than try to take the tools available to them and create something good, or at least innovative and fun. Must always be increasing that bottom line...

Sylocat:
I've been trying to be less confrontational lately, but when I hear self-styled "hardcore" gamers bashing the Wii because they say "Nintendo sold out to the casual gamer," it gets my goat.

If i were to ever hear this I would have to honestly tell the person to **** Off. Without a doubt nintendo is the leader of the console gaming market. For evidence one only needs to look at the controllers. Nearly ever controller nintendo has made has been criticized at first only to be wholeheartely embraced (and then copied) after release. examples??
SNES shoulder pads - now 2 sets on the PS controllers
N64 Analog stick? - again after release PS copied it, xbox too
GC no real advancements here imo, just a rearranged n64 controller
Wii the wii-mote - need i say more. though MS is making a 360mote (http://www.megagames.com/news/html/console/microsoftworkingonxbox360wiimote.shtml)

the thing is that the only way nintendo can stay alive is to be innovative, to reach out to the outer fringes of the video game world and try to involve them (and their wallets) in the market. what then happens is that the entry cost for nintendo is lower since the gamers on the outer fringes don't have higher expectations. for example you could compare doom3 and its multi-million dollar budget and it's sale to the 'hard core audience' or say Brain age with its multi-thousand dollar budget and its amazing sales to the non hardcore gamer

in all honesty whenever a company other than nintendo makes a new product, i tend to brush it aside, but if it's nintendo, then I listen, because usually its worth listening to

so when ever someone states something like that again, shove it back in their face that nintendo is the leader and not a follower, and makes much more money doing so :-D

Sylocat:

3. "Realism." I am talking about this obsession with realism in guns,

Well when you're brought up in a family that owns guns I tend to get pissy when guns in a realistic game don't behave even remotely similar to their real life counterparts.

On the topic of why "Casual" gaming is considered evil is because gaming is our niche. Gamers are a minority and just like any other group we want to protect and preserve our culture. Many people nowadays are beginning to see videogames as something fun to do and have stepped into our culture and many gamers are afraid. We gamers are afraid of losing our culture to these "Casual" gamers and now ostracize the "Casual" gamers hoping to drive them away.

Re: Mice on Consoles, FPS's, and so on...

As much as consoles are gaining PC titles and PCs are running console games, I find that I like my consoles to stick to arcade-style games, and my PC to remain the powerhouse game machine.

Consoles are born for peripherals. From the Nintendo Zapper, to the Super Scope, Sony's Guncon 1&2, and now the Wii guns... These are toys you won't find on a PC, and I hope to hell nobody tries to change that. 32" television or 19" monitor? Hmm, I wonder which would be more fun for a shooter?

The same goes for joysticks and oddities. Anyone remember the Power Glove? Fuck I wanted that thing. R.O.B. for NES, arcade-style joysticks for most every console (I have a real nice PSX one), and who can forget the DDR pad? Ok, sorry on the last one, we're all TRYING to forget the DDR pad... But you get my point, these things are what consoles exist for. Consoles tried a mouse, not gonna do that again are we?

Now computers, I don't wanna futz around with a powerglove for my PC, makes it hard to use the keyboard. Yes gamepads for the PC had their era, but those games moved to the console where they belong. Now the computer's gadgets are the simulation realm. Joysticks that are more than an 8-directional knob and some big round buttons, PC sticks do what console models never could. But more than anything, PCs use the mouse and keyboard... I don't want an FPS that uses anything other than these two devices, no analog stick can replace a mouse or trackball, and no gamepad on earth has ever had enough buttons for a full FPS. RTS games are the same for me, the keyboard is less important, but I will NOT play an RTS without my mouse. It's just wrong... Wrong like a donkey show.

The only crossover item for me is Wheels. PC wheels have their place, and so do console wheels. Those items aside, lets leave the peripherals to their respective places, and the games should go with them. No more FPS/RTS games on the console, and lets keep the arcade and more casual games off the PC.

/rant

I don't mind "casual" gamers, so long as they don't pretend to know a load about ANY game.

If I talk to a friend, I don't want some "casual" cockend bragging about how he has beaten every level on Resident Evil 2, just leave our discussion alone and drown in the bliss of your ignorance.

Now I'm not trying to prove Sylocat's point, but I will argue that PC is the best gaming machine out there. I'll just say that the controls are always WAY better than any controller, but even if you disagree with that, think about mods. Mods are what make games great, and they're the most readily, and often only, available on the PC.
In my Opinion, this is the current roster for gaming systems.
1. PC
2. Wii
3. Xbox 360
4. PS3

Getting past that point, I do consider myself a casual gamer, and I know nothing wrong with that. I may get a little hardcore sometimes, and I will debate over gaming, but games don't rule my life. I mean, if you want to say I'm a hardcore gamer from the what I said above, then fine, go ahead.

EDIT: I guess I consider myself somewhat of a hardcore gamer but i never really thought about it until just now.

Blah. I play a game if it's fun. That's all there is to it. I have a Wii and a DS, but I also couldn't live without my PS2. I have Bioshock and some other games on PC. I don't really think that casual games are really that low on the totem pole. Sure, we get the few exceptions coming in and blabbing off about the master PC race, but since when do we actually listen to them. Best policy is to play a game for fun, and to ignore what all the other tattering idiots say.

Back when I played World of Warcraft, I was just about the most casual player in the world. I'd play for maybe an hour at a time, never really getting into anything.
I still consider myself a casual gamer, even though me playing a game for 3-4 hours straight would come as no surprise to anyone who knows me. I won't win any Brawl tournaments, even though I've beaten the game several times over. I'll get my ass handed to me in any FPS ever made and not care. I play games because they're fun, not because I can beat every player in the universe.

BaldingSteve:
Now I'm not trying to prove Sylocat's point, but I will argue that PC is the best gaming machine out there. I'll just say that the controls are always WAY better than any controller, but even if you disagree with that, think about mods. Mods are what make games great, and they're the most readily, and often only, available on the PC.

I disagree; most mods are shiteful. There are a lot that take the things that are great about the original game and just make them look shoddy. If it ain't broke, don't feel the need to fix it dude (and if they are broke it won't make things much better unless you re-write the engine). The only thing positive about mods is that fanboys can exercise their creative side and I don't have to download them.

In terms of the antipathy some gamers have for casual gamers, I see it as reverse discrimination. Gaming (especially PC related) has been more the safehaven for nerds or those with nerdlike tendencies. The more casual-friendly consoles have attracted the boorish jock element onto the nerd's home turf, so now they're arching up about it. It's like the AD&D fans showing up to the football field with power-armour.

There is a different between hardcore games and being completly obsessive and elitist. Sadly most people don't know the difference.

CodeChrono:
Blah. I play a game if it's fun.

Me too man. I even played viva piniata.

As for PC not being the best gaming platform... well...
the PC has porn so thus its better than every other platform out there.

eyceguy:

Sylocat:
I've been trying to be less confrontational lately, but when I hear self-styled "hardcore" gamers bashing the Wii because they say "Nintendo sold out to the casual gamer," it gets my goat.

If i were to ever hear this I would have to honestly tell the person to **** Off. Without a doubt nintendo is the leader of the console gaming market. For evidence one only needs to look at the controllers. Nearly ever controller nintendo has made has been criticized at first only to be wholeheartely embraced (and then copied) after release. examples??
SNES shoulder pads - now 2 sets on the PS controllers
N64 Analog stick? - again after release PS copied it, xbox too
GC no real advancements here imo, just a rearranged n64 controller
Wii the wii-mote - need i say more. though MS is making a 360mote

Just a thought here (correct me if i'm wrong), I think arcades had analog/joysticks years before the N64 or something similar to it. The shoulder pads i do admit were slightly copied off the SNES and such, but if you were sony/microsoft you'd probably copy that too, we like our shoulder buttons don't we?

AC10: The PS3 and Wii have internet browsers and thus, they have porn to. (Hell, i even tried.)

I present to you, the Law of Fan Jackassery.

Gaming as a whole is pretty much at the peak of that curve. It's not the niche little market it was ten and twenty years ago when everything was groovy, it's just mainstream enough to be noticed, but not so much that social rejects are identified for what they are and told to fuck off.

There are two types of hardcore gamers: gamers who really, really care about games and are proud of it, and idiots who call themselves 'hardcore' because they believe that being decent at Halo (sorry, I'm sure there are plenty of nice Halo players) or Guitar Hero makes them special somehow. Category 2 thinks that flaunting whatever skill they have in the faces of others is cool, find casual gaming threatening, so react like a drunken frat boy and start flaring their nostrils and getting in casual gaming's face while shouting "What! What! What! What!". See, these people have no redeeming qualities other than their most likely vastly exaggerated skill, and find anything that may shatter the brittle visage of their masculinity a gigantic threat. This leads to them attacking it. Category 1, however, understands that casual games have always been around (Katamari Damacy, Mario Kart 64, etc.) and that they have only frequently been referred to by this title. Because now they have waggle control. And cooking simulators. But hey, Japan has been making cooking simulators for years now. In fact, I remember one on the PS1.

'Casual' games, in today's sense anyway, aren't very imaginative, in addition to several other things, like shovelware, for instance. They also tend to favor luck and half assed gimmicks in tread of level design and learning curve.

Gaming 25 years ago engendered its own ideas and innovations from scratch, which were limited by the encoding/hardware at the time.

There's truth to the claim, fucking cry about it.

You completely missed the point.

The problem most hardcore gamers have with casual games is that they lack depth.

Yikes, I make sure I spell all the words in the post right, and then I write "bcome" in the title slot. I won't live that one down for a while. ^_^;

Joeshie:
You completely missed the point.

The problem most hardcore gamers have with casual games is that they lack depth.

Sure, and Unreal Tournament 3 is a REALLY deep game.

1. FPS games are not a fad. Playing from the 1st person is logical and intuitive and is not going anywhere, anytime soon.
2. Yes fanboyism is ugly but you have to be accepting and more tolerant of them, or you are just perpetuating the "us vs. them" ideology that is spewed out on every reputable games orientated webpage there is.
3. Realism = believability. Things looking and acting correctly greatly adds to the sense of immersion in the games world. ie. when things aren't proper, it doesn't feel right. They aren't making admin simulators, realism in games isnt a chore.

I don't like telling people they are wrong but I couldn't see much right with what you said, and it was listed on the main page so...killed a few minutes.

Well after reading all this, I'm lost.

Are we talking about "Casual Games" (as opposed to true games), or people who "Casually" PLAY games (as opposed to hardcore gamers)?

Khell_Sennet:
Well after reading all this, I'm lost.

Are we talking about "Casual Games" (as opposed to true games), or people who "Casually" PLAY games (as opposed to hardcore gamers)?

Good question. I was talking primarily about the latter, but the former is up for discussion. Of course, I don't think the term "casual game" is limited to browser-based or downloaded games.

Scolar Visari:
On the topic of why "Casual" gaming is considered evil is because gaming is our niche. Gamers are a minority and just like any other group we want to protect and preserve our culture. Many people nowadays are beginning to see videogames as something fun to do and have stepped into our culture and many gamers are afraid. We gamers are afraid of losing our culture to these "Casual" gamers and now ostracize the "Casual" gamers hoping to drive them away.

Can't have summed it better myself. I don't want my passion to go into the gutter, just 'cos its's the new fad on the market.

Though, I don't mind the Wii. I've played a bit, and it's pretty fun.

AC10:

Sylocat:

2. PC/console snobbery. I can think of few things more pathetic than someone proclaiming the superiority of a PC to a console because FPS are better on a computer (it having never occurred to them that there is more to gaming than just online FPS tournaments, see #1 above)

I want to comment on this specifically.

First let me say, I love PC gaming, but I'm not one of those "LOL UR NOT ON PC!!!!11 NOOBS" type. I also love my consoles. But I simply want to state that I not only think the mouse is better for FPS games, but I'm truly more comfortable with a mouse and keyboard on pretty much any genre you can name. Yes, even races, yes even 3rd person games like PoP. Plus, RTS games are just not suited for consoles.

the ONLY time I want a controller is when playing old school NES/SNES/SEGA games or playing a fighter.

I don't really know where I was going with this.

You may not know where you're going with this, but I agree. Keyboard and mouse work fantastic for 3D movement, but Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles require three buttons and a directional pad.

So, to actually add something here, I don't believe casual games or casual gamers are going to ruin anything for the hardcore elite. So long as low-power devices with screens keep coming to market, anyone can be a casual gamer, even the hardcore elite. Peggle and the iPod are a natural. Hell, Pacman remains popular, virtually unaltered from his arcade days, thanks to cellular phones and mp3 players. Relax, all will be well.

As for FPS, I can't tell the difference between them either, except Portal. I have no idea what the big deal is, and I really don't care.

As for PC vs any console or console vs console, PCs and consoles have their own good points. I know my game will run as advertised if I use a console. I know my game could be vastly improved or modified if I buy the PC version. I call this a tossup.

And as for realism, well, what else are they going to do with all the newfound power new console keep finding? On top of that, how are they going to stay in business without updating the system every once in a while. Realism just seems to be the natural progression of things, and I don't see what can be done about it. Although I can't say I wouldn't mind a nice 2D platforming Megaman 9 (to gap the story between 8 and X, as was supposed to happen ages ago) take up an entire Blu-ray. An 80+ hour platformer would be an interesting change of pace.

TC I think you just walked out of a system war and got confused, Unreal 3 and all these FPS games coming out are BECAUSE of the casual market, the "frat boy" market, and the Wii takes it a step further by making all their games "grandma friendly".

Sylocat:
Yikes, I make sure I spell all the words in the post right, and then I write "bcome" in the title slot. I won't live that one down for a while. ^_^;

Joeshie:
You completely missed the point.

The problem most hardcore gamers have with casual games is that they lack depth.

Sure, and Unreal Tournament 3 is a REALLY deep game.

Once again I think you are misunderstanding everything, Unreal Tournament 3 is meant for the casual player who just wants to look at something pretty and play a "cool people" game with lots of shooting.

I'll respond to this in three parts...

(1) Why does everyone hve to hate on FPS gamers? I am a real fan of FPS games and, I will admit, some of them are a bit cookie-cutter. But not all FPS games are the same run-and-gun brown, brown, and more brown you describe. Take The Darkness for example. This game was original and inventive. The ending kind of sucked though...

(2) I VERY MUCH agree on this. I hate it how PC gamers think that all console gamers are blithering, mouth-foaming, unitelligent loons. I also hate it when console fans think that all PC gamers are all stuck-up & snobbish. This is a completely unfounded sterotype.

(3) Once again, good point. Realism is nice and all but there's a line sometimes. Developers are sometimes to busy trying to make their AK-47 photo-realistic to MAKE THE GAME FUN! Okami is a really good example of the devlopers trying to make a game good-looking instead of uber-real.

What's wrong with games being "grandma-friendly"? I, for one, think being able to do something you enjoy with your family, regardless of age, is a lovely thing. If I tried to get my grandma to play Gears of War with me, well.. lol. She would say no.

The bottom line is, there are different games for different people. And some people are aggressive towards others who are different from them. It's like cliques in high school. Jocks will look down at nerds just because they like different things, etc.. This sort of "elitism" happens in music, as well. "Hardcore" fans of a certain genre will look down on people who like bands different from the ones they like and call them "posers" and such. That being said, I play games ALOT, and I would say I'm "hardcore", but I don't resent casual gamers or casual games themselves.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is it depends on the individuals rather than the entire "hardcore" crowd.

It became horrible as soon as :

Companies realised they could trot out barely enhanced versions year after year and the mindless sheep would still buy it.

Companies (by and large) stopped bothering with good games and concentrated on the graphics whores.

The PC ports of Console games absolutely sucked ass in comparison their console brethren. (yes I realise the irony compared to above)

Bethesda ignored the people who brought them to the dance and raped TES:IV on PC and are currently raping Fallout3. To satisfy the "but I don't want to think ... ooh a shiny thing" generation.

And finally but most tellingly, when gaming went from being a valid pursuit for the misanthropes amongst us to everything having multiplayer. Enabling everyone to have a swearing bigot in their lives proclaiming that they've either "owned" you or that you're cheating. And multiplayer at the expense of single-player too.

Tis a sad world.