Hello, I would quickly like to start out by saying that I am not a noob to the community, I just never post and never bothered making a forum account for that reason.

2ndly: I am a Sophomore in high school.

Last thursday I was in my english class and the teacher gave us schoolwork that 70% of us were able to finish in about 3 seconds and then the teacher left us alone for 30 minutes, thinking that the schoolwork would take said 30 minutes. In my english class there is this kid who is against fun stuff, you know, pranks, mild swearing, videogames, ect. and I was talking to some of my friends about how much I wanted to try out the new GTA4 game but my parents (who are (kinda) devoted catholics) would probably say no on the spot (also keep in mind that I was like...in the 8th grade or something when the previous GTA game came out).

About half way through our pleasant little conversation of how shiny it looks and how the gun fights reminded us of Gears of War Mr.Hates-fun-stuff came over and gave us a verbal slap on the wrist saying "You shouldn't play such violent things like that." At this point I had 1 of 3 options:
1.I ignore his comment and continue my conversation.

2.I confront him and engage in a long heated debate of how GTA4 and other violent games
wont turn me into a killing machine.

3.I Give him a physical slap on the wrist.

For some ungodly reason I chose #2. For the rest of that english class we were arguing over why or why not I should be able to play it, he said that "Its a game where all you do is run over police officers with your gangster friends and the have sex with whores...and then run her over with your gangster friends." This got a few snickers around the room but that was all, I responded with "Having sex with whores is purely optional, they don't show anything, and to the best of my knowledge it doesn't give your character any significant advantage, and you can always just run from the cops."

The conversation continued with him saying (this is word-per-word of what he actually said) "Its an evil mind-control device, and its the leading cause of these recent school shootings." and I saying that he's just being an ignorant little ass...which was actually pretty true. He continued to use references to the previous GTA game and about how violent it was and bringing up the Hot Coffee Mod, ignoring the fact that I said that HCM was a third-party modification and that the new GTA is not set up in a run-down ghetto city, he persisted and somehow won the conversation.

I REALLY want to disprove his ass, because when he wins (which isn't often) he tells the whole world and rubs it in your face of why hes so awesome and god like and you suck.
So, now that that's out of the way I ask you: How bad IS the new GTA? In general? Compared to the previous game? Your help with informing me could also help me actually buy the game.

Don't listen to 'em. They're just a Jack Thompson wannabe. All the needless violence in GTA is optional anyway. It's not like the game tells you to mow down 100's of civilians with your assault rifles and SMG's.

I haven't played GTA4 yet but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that it isn't a mind conrol device. People these days are far too quick to blame everything else for the problems of society.

So the kid doesnt agree with you, big deal? Dont hold a grudge over losing an argument.

The game makes you do some very violent things. You commit serious crimes in 90% of the missions. GTA is about violence and crime, that's why it is so popular. So if thinks that violence in videogames affects someone negatively there isent alot you can say to the defence of the game.

Hey there. I'm an experimental psychology major, and I'm actually just finishing a research paper on the subject of violent video game effects. I've found that there is little to no evidence that VVGs increase aggressive behavior, much less cause school shootings. That guy is citing opinion, not fact. (It should be noted that sammyfreak is doing the same thing)

If you would like a copy of the paper, i could send it to you with a list of my sources.

My email is Jackel86@msn.com

It's the evil shit! Have sex with with whores, kill the Police and drive over people as long as you don't play that mind-controlling game! It'll turn us into Liberal Zombies! Damn Democrats!

Thanks for your input guys!

There has never been a creditable study which has linked video games to violence. The ones that do tend to find a correlation that suggests violent people play violent games. All this means is that a violent person is more likely to choose a game with violent content. This article has been posted here before but it might help you out.

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html

Jackel86:
Hey there. I'm an experimental psychology major, and I'm actually just finishing a research paper on the subject of violent video game effects. I've found that there is little to no evidence that VVGs increase aggressive behavior, much less cause school shootings. That guy is citing opinion, not fact. (It should be noted that sammyfreak is doing the same thing)

If you would like a copy of the paper, i could send it to you with a list of my sources.

My email is Jackel86@msn.com

When I say GTA makes you do violent things I mean that it makes you do violent things ingame. While i happen to agree that videogames dont cause violence it does anoy me how big of a deal some people make of this.

Could you please spellcheck the poll before you post it? :x

Also, I don't see the GTA series as a killing machine training program. Sure, you CAN have sex with prostitutes and kill them afterwards, or drive over people with a stolen car... but the game punishes you for it by sending cops after your butt. People seem to overlook this simple fact.

Of course, getting away from the police is also part of the gameplay, but from there on, it abandons realism. Any logical thinking human being knows that you can't bump cars into 20 objects and still drive faster than a cop.

Most people know that GTA is a game, and if anyone feels the need to re-enact part of the game... they're sick in the head in the first place.

If the GTA games still contained the Kill Frenzies & Elvis lookalikes, it could be argued that GTA game promotes killing civillians. But GTA IV afaik doesnt have these (San Andreas didnt). As the franchise has become more "realistic/mature" the more whacky violent things like these have been abandoned to reflect that. You can still kill civillians, but the game doesnt actively promote this, you have as much choise in the matter as you would in reality; even if the consequences are clearly much less in the game.

That said, I understand that in the interests of gameplay theyve made escaping the police piss easy now, which is a shame as personally i found the police response a reason to be cautious & police chases to be fun.

Id not risk getting into a prolongued arguement with this guy though unless you do your research. He sounds like the kind of character that comes armed with a big pile of "evidence" then picks on a member of the public to debate about it. Most of his arguements are probably strawman arguements & evidence easily counterable, but unless you have a counter ready to hand for each of his points hell win by default & ensure you dont get an oppertunity to go for round 2.

Sammyfreak is right. If this kid is arguing that violent video games cause violence, there's no point in defending GTA4 specifically. Nobody can deny that GTA4 is a violent game, but you can argue that violence in video games does not lead to violence in real life.

Well, again, thanks for your input!

This upcoming monday through friday i'm going on a school trip to New York with some other students "Mr.Hates-Fun-Stuff" is not among them so I won't have to see him again for a good bit. ^^

I like to call GTA4 and all the previous installments, Super Douche Bag Simulator (1-4 of course).

Why, because it lets you be a douche bag with no ill consequences.

Just because I drive down sidewalks mowing waves of fake people down, doesn't mean I'd even consider really doing that.

i woukdnt say its "evil" but im sure that i can say it has been spawned from the vey soul of the devil. So it must be devilish.

Street Fighter didn't make be throw fire with my hands.
Pacman didn't make me a drug addict.
Tomba didn't give me pink hair.
GTA4 will not turn me into a complete fucking nutcase.

Psychotic people are more likely to play GTA over somthing like sonic, purely for the rush the simulated voilence gives them, but for them to go on a killing spree, their moral compass has to be seriously skewed and they have to have access to these weapons.

Number 2 is no problem in America, stores are stocked to the gills with various types of guns & ammo.

Number 1 comes down to a lack of parenting.

My parents brought me up right, I know right from wrong and videogames from reality.

Problem is, parents today really couldn't give a fuck, they'll let their kids do whatever they want, and, because of this, these kids grow up thinking they can get away with this shit.
THAT'S when they get bullied at school, decide to shoot the place up because they can do whatever they please, just like at home, and get carted off to jail.

Then the media show up, and of course, the little cunt has GTA, because all his friends have it, mommy can't take him whining about it, and she buys it him because of his incessant bitching.

Now of course, his lazy ass parents have fuck all to do with it, I mean, the kid was in therapy and all, so blame it on the therapist, he went to school (when he wanted to), blame it on the teachers, he was on his computer a lot, blame it on the games, he went to the cinema once too, blame it on the movies too, in fact, blame it on EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE FUCKING SHITTY PARENTING HE RECEIVED.

Videogames don't make nutjobs, crap lazy parenting does.

Evil mind-control device? I blame the Illuminati.
Common sense proves him wrong. If VVG really caused gamers to go on psychopathic rampages, there would be several MILLION murderers from GTA4 alone. Add the rest of the GTAs, Saints Row, Manhunt and Postal to name a few, and the planet would be wiped out already.
Perhaps it's being covered up by the Illuminati (see above).

BTW, I had a similar experiance once. I just looked the guy up and down, laughed, and turned away. He pretty much had a hissy fit right there. F***ing hilarious.

Edit: Ninja'd by the guy above. Agree with everything he just said.

MRMIdAS2k:

Videogames don't make nutjobs, crap lazy parenting does.

Amen, kill the parents. Problem sorted.

Dosed:

MRMIdAS2k:

Videogames don't make nutjobs, crap lazy parenting does.

Amen, kill the parents. Problem sorted.

Yes, because that won't affect him.[/sarcasm]

2.I confront him and engage in a long heated debate of how GTA4 and other violent games wont turn me into a killing machine.

Violent games won't make us "killing machines" but they, along with films, music, magazines, books, etc, have made violence more acceptable and cool in today's societies in ways it wasn't years ago.

Games like GTA make gangsters appear honourable, fun, interesting, and role modals even to the extent of God-like status. GTA isn't a sole influence, it's one of many, but it's still a contribution, and because of that I refuse to buy it.

Now I play violent games. I like my Tenchu and Silent Hill, but I think assasinating ninjas 100s of years ago, or killing self-imagined creatures (errr, oh yeah, plot twist) gives a different impression from a game that has you rise from rags to riches by stealing and killing in a contemporary society.

Videogames don't make nutjobs, crap lazy parenting does.

Not at all. I know many terrific families that do their very best and then some to make the best of their children, only to be fighting a losing battle to the big-media machine that encourages violence and other criminal offenses to the point that it's beneficial (Get Rich or Die Trying?).

Call me a party pooper, but saying parents are lazy is the utmost ignorance. We're all in this together. They play a part in a person's life as do you and I.

I still don't think the first GTAs on the PSX were anything to worry about, because they were so obnoxiously funny and unbelievable you couldn't take it seriously, but the series has strived for a far more 'realistic' and believable setting and gameplay since the 3rd and in many ways is the binary opposite of what the original stood for.

Some kids are just crazy in the head, a young gamer with a good head who knows right from wrong wont be turned into a killing machine by a game where you can run over street lamps in a beatle (saw a vid of it =D)

Short answer: No. Long answer: No, and people who believe that the game is evil are either Christian stereotypes and mothers who never play the game and base there knowledge and opinion on the damn synopsis. Don't blame the influence, blame the person.

I got into a similar debate (about downloading music for free) with my teacher and all of the teacher's favorites, yankers kept cutting me off and ignoring everything I said while telling doomsday stories of the music industry just making Britany Spear sing-alikes. I agree with Meado, if he tried to screw around with you again, just laugh him off.

About video games causing violence, I do agree parenting has alot to do with it, so does the enviroment and all of that, but I disagree that kids are so idiotic and spongelike they need to be protected from Big Media. Kids learn from the people around them, not from a video game or movie.

If you ask me, there are tons of other things causing our youth to become violent. Let's start with television. I remember a post earlier in the week referring to an episode of Robot Chicken where a child was held down and forced to watch his family be murdered/bruatalized in front of him and then was murdered himself. To me, that screams more obscenity than GTAIV, but then again, that's just me.

Truthfully, I don't like the GTA series. While I'm not saying that they are the primary cause of violence, it's hard to convince people of that, because the game is so easily manipulated. All it takes is some news reported and a capture card playing the game and doing horrible things to innocent people and we've got a crisis on our hands.

It's not a mind control device, though the kid wasn't totally off balance. He made several good points and several bad points, probably fuled by the ignorant media. He was off on the HCM being an intergral part of the game and that the game is primarily about killing cops. However, he wasn't off because you can kill cops, have sex and do virtually anything in that game.

It's all about perspecive, in my honest opinion.

Laughing at people tends to end most arguements. It sends one important message: "Your opinion is so wrong that I find it amusing."

Seriously though, this looks like a textbook case of someone refusing to abandon their hallucination of reality. There's no arguing with people like that: if you're of a different opinion from them then you're automatically wrong because there is no way that they can be incorrect.

Also, read this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/4860-Grand-Theft-Childhood-and-the-Case-Against-Media-Sensationalism
(I'm sorry about the long URL, but I haven't figured out how to condense links into one word. Does HTML work on this forum?)

EDITED for spelling mistakes

Zemalac:
Laughing at people tends to end most arguements. It sends one important message: "Your opinion is so wrong that I find it amusing."

Seriously though, this looks like a textbook case of someone refusing to abandon their hallucination of reality. There's no arguing with people like that: if you're of a different opinion from them then you're automatically wrong because there is no way that they can be incorrect.

Also, read this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/4860-Grand-Theft-Childhood-and-the-Case-Against-Media-Sensationalism
(I'm sorry about the long URL, but I haven't figured out how to condense links into one word. Does HTML work on this forum?)

EDITED for spelling mistakes

Normal BB code works, just use a [url=link] tag.

That article is very well balanced in my opinon and I find the results most agreable. But remember that it did say that there was a relation between violence and kids who played alot of videogames.

As I recall, didn't Steven Kazmierczak not play videogames?

MRMIdAS2k:
Videogames don't make nutjobs, crap lazy parenting does.

QTF. That or mental problems, some of which can be averted by good parenting.

On topic: I think they guy you were talking to wasn't worth it. If he came up to me, and said the same, I'd be "Ok, that's what you think. Why don't you go over to your friends and talk about your interests, and I'll talk to my friends about our interests." If would of cut deep if he was a loner.

sammyfreak:
Normal BB code works, just use a [url=link] tag.

Ah. See, I don't know BB code. Thanks for telling me; I'll look it up somewhere.

Remember: Violence existed before videogames. Violence also existed before TV, movies, comic books, pulp fiction, and everything else people have been saying is the corrupting the youth of the world. Yes, in the 1920s there were people just like today lashing out against violent action novels and how evil they were.

We are the products of thousands of years of evolution and selective breeding in which only the most aggressive males survived.

As for school shootings; well look at it this way, kids can't fight in school anymore. You put a bunch of teenage boys together and sooner or later they will start punching each other (see evolution above). This used to be understood and teachers would simply break up the fights and give the kids detention; now they call the cops, send the kids to jail, expell them from school, etc. The victims of bullying have no recourse anymore.

Grampy_bone:
Kids can't fight in school anymore. You put a bunch of teenage boys together and sooner or later they will start punching each other. This used to be understood and teachers would simply break up the fights and give the kids detention; now they call the cops, send the kids to jail, expell them from school, etc. The victims of bullying have no recourse anymore.

Thats true, back in my dads day (he grew up in Texas) there were hustles and fights every now and then, what did the teacher do? She/he would break up the fight, give them a mild punishment (like make them say that their sorry) and have them shake hands, heck some people actually became friends that way.

It's not only the parents, but it's also the kid's ability to reason with the game itself.

I'm basically allowed to get any game I want just so long as I don't take it too seriously. Sure, i pretend that my pencil is a handgun and that there's a nazi behind that tree, but i know that there isn't. I know the difference between GTA4 and reality, and i'm not going to be stupid and do what monkey does.

Some games help me learn about real life senarios like CoD4 with the war in Iraq and all.

Oh, whew, I was worried this was another thread that painted Jack Thompson in a serious light. Ah, carry on then.

Just be careful, I have heard stupid is contagious and this Mr. Fun-Hate sounds like he might be bleeding out of every orfice like a fire-hose, and stupid is AIDs.

It's not a killing machine.

I don't think people can disprove what I believe: That playing games like that can make you 0.03% more likely to be violent. Just like being insulted will make you 0.05% more likely, or seeing footage of the Iraq war will make you 0.1% more likely. There are a billion factors to violence and no one thing could ever be labeled a major cause.

Still, other people are free to their opinions. You were being a bit of a jackass to bring up a debate, because let's be honest: Can either of you "disprove" what the other is saying? Do you honestly expect the other to have a change of heart? Just acknowledge you have separate opinions and leave it at that.