A mate of mine was talking about a game where one player plays RTS and the others control the individual unit (one of many)as FPS that the RTS moves. Think C&C where team mates also control the little guys in FPS (or 3PS), so its not just about strategy, there is some skill involved, anyone know of this game, or does anyone else who thinks this idea kicks ass?

Humm, I was listening to the Team Fortress 2 developer's commentary and they had had a similar idea for a Commander type class in TF2 that would kind of direct the action. (Being brief there.) Anyway, the problem the found was, that there was a difficulty in making it a fun thing to play, you might have a crummy commander with great troops, or vice versa, added to which, a commander class would be staying back out of the action, and I guess not everyone would enjoy that, though it's still something different.

Never heard of a game that uses this, although there's a few I can think of which allow you to 'possess' your units and go into a first person mode, however, this is usually a tacked on thing and doesn't really seem developed. A nice idea though, and it'd be quite interesting to see how it would work with multiple players.

Whilst not that exact idea, the newer Battlezone for PC was that kind of idea, where you played first person in tanks and on foot etc. whilst you also built buildings and harvesting resources. It was also fricking amazing, if stupidly hard.

wills_b:
Whilst not that exact idea, the newer Battlezone for PC was that kind of idea, where you played first person in tanks and on foot etc. whilst you also built buildings and harvesting resources. It was also fricking amazing, if stupidly hard.

There's one, yeah! Two was a bit of a let down imo, but the first PC Battlezone was great :D
And yes, that is a game that combines first person combat (mainly vehicular) with RTS, actually, once you get a communications tower up and running in that game, you can sit back at your base behind your turrets, however I often found it more fun to head up a platoon I'd just built.
I never played multiplayer with it, and I'm not sure you can now, but I wonder if the base building and such took place, or if it was just deathmatches etc. I'll have to check...

The Half-Life mod Natural Selection anyone?

I'd like to see game designers try the following (though it would never happen)

A FPS where you could pause the game and switch to an overhead camera, where you could give direct commands to your allies. This isn't realistic, but that shouldn't always be the goal, sometimes just being a fun game should be enough.

Game devs would never do this because "pausing" ala Baldurs Gate seems to be frowned upon, I don't know why, but it is.

I'm not sure what game your mate was talking about but this exact thing was done in a user-made multiplayer mission called CTI (Capture The Island) for Operation Flashpoint (which is a tactical shooter/soldier sim) back in 2003 or 2004.

In CTI, two teams (consisting of 9 players - 8 squad leaders and one commander), start at a random position on the island. The commander controls the Mobile Headquarters (a special armored vehicle based on either a M2A2 Bradley or BMP-2), and with it, he can build factories that produce soldiers, jeeps, trucks, APCs, tanks, helicopters and even fixed-wing aircraft. From these factories the squad leaders can buy what they need with their allotment of points. Points are awarded to the commander for destroying enemy vehicles, taking and holding the towns on the map, and salvaging wrecked vehicles. All of the towns on the map start out held by a third party, the Resistance, who are hostile to both sides.

CTI has also been adopted as an official game mode in OFP's de-facto sequel, Armed Assault.

Xwii360:
If I recall correctly Battlefield 2 had a general feature where one player controlled the vast majority of the forces. But then again that game sucked

Good idea.

Battlefield is only vaugely close to this idea. Commanders in Battlefield didn't really 'command' but just 'sugested' where squads (assuming the other players had made any) should go and more often than not were ignored. So they spent thier time dropping artillery on snipers in the middle of nowhere and dropping repair crates next to thier artillery every time enemy spec ops took it out. If Valve hadn't figured the commander class was a bad idea for themselves, they only really needed to look at Battlefield.

The trouble with this kind of 'cross' gameplay, is that its not just the difficulty of making two games, because you then have to link the two styles together in a way that makes both worthwhile. The only other game I can think of thats even close would be Hostile Waters, but thats thrid person + RTS, and the RTS is really very 'tacked on' since you could fairly easily fight the entire game yourself, just pausing occasionally to move your AI defense line forward a little.

PedroSteckecilo:
Game devs would never do this because "pausing" ala Baldurs Gate seems to be frowned upon, I don't know why, but it is.

They probably think it disrupts the flow of play, and I would think it has some potential for abuse, although, if I remember correctly, Warcraft 3 had you able to pause during multiplayer, only for a few seconds though maybe 20-30 secs, and only 3 or so times per match. It could conceivably work in and FPS as long as it was controlled so as to make sure it wasn't misused, i.e. pausing on a whim every 10 seconds, or leaving it paused while someone goes to the bathroom etc.

One of those fits of seizure that signify the nearing end in a terminally ill gaming industry. I tell you next time it's gonna be Tony Hawk's Pro Skater with implemented FPS elements and then the world will stop playing anything else beside minesweeper and everybody who disobeys will be burned in the streets during the morning Sabbath.

yeah i have heard that the game Tom Clancy's EndWar will have something like that where you controll your massive armies or you can take the role of just one of the soldier
P.S i think your mate was talking about the game called Savage 1 and Savage 2

mace5087:
yeah i have heard that the game Tom Clancy's EndWar will have something like that where you controll your massive armies or you can take the role of just one of the soldier
P.S i think your mate was talking about the game called Savage 1 and Savage 2

Yes, I do believe that was it! Thank you, kind sir.

I was afraid that such an idea would be pleasing one audience too many and just end up being crap. Thing is, alot of my mates are great at RTS's but I'm shit, yet good at action games, so this is sorta like a means to both play. Plus when you play as a soldier, you'd feel like your part of a much grander plan, it just seemed cool to me.

ultra_v_89:
A mate of mine was talking about a game where one player plays RTS and the others control the individual unit (one of many)as FPS that the RTS moves. Think C&C where team mates also control the little guys in FPS (or 3PS), so its not just about strategy, there is some skill involved, anyone know of this game, or does anyone else who thinks this idea kicks ass?

A really old game called Machines let you do sort of that, and I really liked it.

GothmogII:

PedroSteckecilo:
Game devs would never do this because "pausing" ala Baldurs Gate seems to be frowned upon, I don't know why, but it is.

They probably think it disrupts the flow of play, and I would think it has some potential for abuse, although, if I remember correctly, Warcraft 3 had you able to pause during multiplayer, only for a few seconds though maybe 20-30 secs, and only 3 or so times per match. It could conceivably work in and FPS as long as it was controlled so as to make sure it wasn't misused, i.e. pausing on a whim every 10 seconds, or leaving it paused while someone goes to the bathroom etc.

It doesn't "really" disrupt the flow of play, what it does is make multiplayer difficult, and these days nobody REALLY wants to make a non-multiplayer FPS. It isn't really possible to have a "RTS/FPS" that plays well any other way.

The previously-mentioned Half-Life mod Natural Selection is the best example of this I've seen. Its RTSness and FPSness are equally fundamental to the gameplay; neither feels tacked-on. It's a bit dated now, but I suggest a go if you're interested in the genre. They're developing a Source-engine-based sequel too, which should be nice.

Another Source-based game (this time a sourcemod) that's apparently doing this is Nuclear Dawn. Have a google.

This genre annoys me a little bit because it's similar to the playground game Tag. It's been invented a million times, and every single time they call it a unique, groundbreaking idea. It's not original any more! Just accept it!

And to all the not-possible-in-multiplayer naysayers, go and play NS. Right now.

PedroSteckecilo:

GothmogII:

PedroSteckecilo:
Game devs would never do this because "pausing" ala Baldurs Gate seems to be frowned upon, I don't know why, but it is.

They probably think it disrupts the flow of play, and I would think it has some potential for abuse, although, if I remember correctly, Warcraft 3 had you able to pause during multiplayer, only for a few seconds though maybe 20-30 secs, and only 3 or so times per match. It could conceivably work in and FPS as long as it was controlled so as to make sure it wasn't misused, i.e. pausing on a whim every 10 seconds, or leaving it paused while someone goes to the bathroom etc.

It doesn't "really" disrupt the flow of play, what it does is make multiplayer difficult, and these days nobody REALLY wants to make a non-multiplayer FPS. It isn't really possible to have a "RTS/FPS" that plays well any other way.

Pausing is for wimps. Real RTS games (eg, CnC) don't let you pause the game - note the real time part of the name. So don't have pausing, and learn to think fast if you're the commander :P

PedroSteckecilo:
I'd like to see game designers try the following (though it would never happen)

A FPS where you could pause the game and switch to an overhead camera, where you could give direct commands to your allies. This isn't realistic, but that shouldn't always be the goal, sometimes just being a fun game should be enough.

To be fair, Hidden and Dangerous, WW2 shooter from around about 2001 ish, had that feature. You could pause the game give fairly complex commands like go here, defend, kill him etc and then resume play as any one of your four player squad. To be honest it usually got you all killed, but it was there...

Also Brothers in Arms had that 'battlefield perspective' thing where you paused the game and could see all the enemies nearby, then when you hit play again, you could order your squad about.

There are games with a similar system, but very few are FPS. E.g. X-Com Apocalypse.

Not quite an FPS/RTS hybrid, but it would be pretty cool to have a game like AoE/RoN where you build up resources/buildings/towns/armies etc., then when two opposing armies got into a certain range of each other, it would switch to Medieval: Total War style gameplay, where you'e more like a general on the battlefield itself, directing the action.

BrookM:
The Half-Life mod Natural Selection anyone?

I really liked that game. Thought it implemented really well.

Why do I seem to recall a Command and Conquer game like that? Anyone remember what I'm thinking about? Maybe not Command and Conquer? I'm so confused.

Xwii360:
If I recall correctly Battlefield 2 had a general feature where one player controlled the vast majority of the forces. But then again that game sucked

Good idea.

Eh?

And yeah, there's a game exactly like the one described coming out soon. PC Gamer UK previewed it a few months back but I forgot the name. Er... some of the units look like the Colossi from Shadow of the Colossus?

C'mon, someone help me out here!

I think you may be referring to GPG's new venture, Demigods? You play two different kind of Demigods, one which sort of goes around kicking ass, and the other that generally focuses on commanding the underlings. But, individuals aren't controlling the ground troops. So maybe you're thinking of something else, but Demigods is the only thing I know of that I've seen reminiscent of the Colossi designs.

On the topic: The term I made up in my head for this is asymmetrical cooperative play. I think Battlefield's failing was in not providing enough incentive for the ground troops to obey the commander, and in using the grunt ranks to populate the commander's seat. Team motivation is all well and good, but if the commander had some sort of lasting power over the individuals, like setting point values for achieving goals they set on the map (Take this position! Worth 500XP), you might actually get people playing together. And, as someone else mentioned, it is hard enough making one game, let alone making two entirely different games, that then interface seamlessly for the end user. On top of that, to get to a point where you have enough people to be meaningful for an RTS commander, you're talking about an RTS/MMOFPS arrangement. MMOFPS is hard enough.

What about the MMORPG space? I know you can rise up to be the castle lord in Lineage, but it might be interesting to take that to the next level, and give those individuals city-planning capabilities, etc. In EVE, I think you can build Space Stations, which is getting into this area as well.

In general, the more aspects of a game that we can make human-controlled, and enjoyable, despite being different roles, I think the more fun that game can be (AI is great, and all, but good people are always better).

@Melaisis: DEMIGOD by Gas Powered Games

There is however one minor detail that makes this sort of game less attractive: the human factor.

I remember from waaaay back when I played Natural Selection as a commander that everybody was nagging at you for a shotgun or heavier armour, only to set off on their own once they got the said swag and not bothering to play it as a team. In short those gits would die, respawn and nag once more for the equipment. With a run of the mill RTS your units STFU and do as they are told, while in NS people all have something to say or suddenly vote to kick you out of the command booth for not giving them their weapons and armour.

Empires 2 - Source Mod Game
Review

Calobi:

BrookM:
The Half-Life mod Natural Selection anyone?

I really liked that game. Thought it implemented really well.

Why do I seem to recall a Command and Conquer game like that? Anyone remember what I'm thinking about? Maybe not Command and Conquer? I'm so confused.

Perhaps you're thinking of Renegade? That's the only FPS-like CnC game, but I know literally nothing about it. Try wikipedia.

Voila! The thingy you're talking about:

http://www.irongrip.net/

Iron Grip, a Half Life 2 mod by Isotyx. One team, usually a single person, plays an RTS game with a full squad of people while a second team plays a first person assault against them.

Also, see: Savage: Battle for something, which has similar mechanics.