Sasha Janre:
Vaan wasn't really the main character .. hell, he wasn't even party leader half the time if you just changed it.

Vaan isn't the main character in FFXII. He's the perspective character. The fact that we're seeing all the epic events from the perspective of someone who isn't the chosen one who is destined to save the world (or has hots for same) is quite refreshing. Vaan and Penelo are more Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern than Hamlet.

Anyone played The World Ends With You yet? Though it's not particularly revolutionary in terms of story (there's still lots of angsty young kids), the gameplay elements it introduces are fantastic. The real time combat, though initially overwhelming, works well once you get used to it, and there are a lot of interesting twists on the Jrpg genre.

This, more than anything else, is what Jrpg's need. Originality and the willingness to change genre expectations.

@ Avykins:

"For the most part you never lose a main character in JRPGs. The very very few times you do you immediatly get a replacment who has the same level and all the abilities of your recently departed friend."

-Play Digital Devil saga 1 and then Digital Devil saga 2 (DDS2 being the key part)

@anarchemitis:
Play Metal Saga. That's a nonlinear JRPG for ya.

@Fenixius:

I didn't quote that. :P

Mnemophage:

And finally, a little pet peeve: STOP WITH THE SCHIZOPHRENIC COSTUME DESIGN. Seriously people. I cannot become emotionally attached to a character with a straight-up navy blue hairdo and lime-green strappy top. Anyone who can has brain disease. Show us how awesome you art-types can be while also being minimalist (and no, that doesn't mean thongs and bikinis; that means t-shirts and slacks). PLEASE.

Absolutely. I think that, despite respecting the great artistic effort that goes into such costume designs, I found myself relating more to the real protagonist of Assassin's Creed than I did Final Fantasy 12. His clothes were reasonable and causal; the type you would go adventuring in (although he doesn't do a lot except sit under the Animus). Leather belts and long coats may look nice, but really aren't that reasonable when it comes to travelling across hot deserts and battling a variety of creatures for weeks on end.

Sektor88:
@Fenixius:

I didn't quote that. :P

My sincerest apologies, Sektor88. You did in fact NOT say that. I got the wrong name somehow. Again, I am sorry that I made such a mistake.

I'll be making a proper post this afternoon; I've been extremely busy with university work since my last post.

A chance to rant about the JRPG!

bless you good sir :D

Tactics: Though some might argue, I find JRPGs to be very lacking in terms of tactics or strategy. Often time its just a case of grinding and leveling up till eventaully you can beat the bad to go, and speaking of that....

Ending the "turn based gameplay" which has become an unnessesary staple in many RPG's, always with one or two "twists" but in actuality it all seems the same to me. This is a dated desighn that has out grown itself. We live in an age were we can create realistic pysics and motion, its insulting to not take advantage of it.

General used, reused, and damn neer abused ideas and artistry.
I shy away from JRPG's because they all seem to samey to me, and they all jsut seem to be building off each others little cliche's and jokes. I think I can express it best by saying...

IF I SEE ONE MORE CAT EARED MOTHA TRUCKA!!!ONE MORE OVER SIZED FAN!!ONE MORE ICONIC TEAR/VEIN/SMILY OR ONE MORE 9 YEAR OLD SCHOOLGIRL GOING "tee hee hee" I WILL PERSONALLY LEAD AN ARMADA OR WARSHIPS TO THE JAPENESE COAST!!!

yeah.......yeah that sounds about right.

OH!! and the ever so unrealistic 12-14 year old who knows how to cut you down with a sword as he's had "the training". BEYOND THAT, the ever common plot of "beleive in the children, you must trust me! trust me!" Because somehow, I dont think sending the message that a small boy/girl with no experiences or such, is more quailified to save the world then someone whos actaully has gone and gathered info and a good 20 YEARS or expereince. Jsut a thought.......just a simple thought.

They need more variety.

1) Quit it will the whole angsty teen saves world bit: A good story doesn't necessarily need a world that needs saving nor a angsty teen with a pretty face.

2) Give us more freedom: Now I know that the Japanese traditionally like their entire gameplay laid out for them in a nice order and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a linear game. The problem is that the entire genre seems congested with linear RPGs. Again, mix it up a bit more. WRPGs are able to both incredibly well (see Elder Scrolls for freedom and Bioware RPGs for linearity).

3) Better character design: Adding ten million belts and zippers to a character is not a freakin' art style Nomura, nor would it be a good one even if it was.

Overall, I think that JRPGs are a rather unique style of RPGs that rather balances itself out with the style of WRPGs. Really, the biggest thing I would recommend JRPG makers (as well as WRPG makers) is to mix it up a bit. Try something new and unique.

Well this isn't more of a gameplay thing, but seeing as that Lost Odyssey was Four fuckmothering DVDs - It may be a good time to start using Blu-Ray...

but Microsoft keeps making things exclusive like the New Tales of Vesparia... that's gonna be like, 4 dvds minimum.. >_>

GloatingSwine:

Sasha Janre:
Vaan wasn't really the main character .. hell, he wasn't even party leader half the time if you just changed it.

Vaan isn't the main character in FFXII. He's the perspective character. The fact that we're seeing all the epic events from the perspective of someone who isn't the chosen one who is destined to save the world (or has hots for same) is quite refreshing. Vaan and Penelo are more Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern than Hamlet.

I agree with that! It was a better game than most people gave it credit for.

Okay this isn't really aimed at just JRPGs but really games in general but I personally am sick and tired of being a damn goodey goodey all the time. Why cant we play as a morally questionable hero ?
Hell go waaaay back to even the first Legacy of Kain. You had a choice, die so the world can be restored or choose to rule but damn the world.
Even Star Ocean II. If you steal and shit from people and your other characters see it it changes the ending. Whoever sees it starts to like you less and you can end uo being pretty much hated in the end.

GloatingSwine:

Seldon2639:
Never, never, never again have a major part of the game be about missing memories. FFVII was annoying about it, FFVIII made me want to break my playstation over my knee.

Although of course like any other plot element, when done well, this is an incredibly good way to trickle information out to the player about the plot and characters, whilst still allowing the player to define the personality of the character now thanks to their actions in the game.

The most effective uses were in Planescape: Torment and Lost Odyssey, two very different interpretations of the same concept.

Don't forget KOTOR.

Leave.. them as they are, look at LO, i have never had that much fun with a game for along time, it was a fairly basic in its mechanics, going back to the traditional Conditional turn based battle system, with random encounters.. Honestly screw enemys on-screen, screw advanced WRPG battle systems, if you were a true JRPG fan all you would care about was the direction of the story whilst all others are just a filler. A game doesn't have to be good just becasue it did something different to the last one, get over it play it and move on xD.

Stammer:

In FF10, your characters can only have two different pieces of equipment on at once (one weapon, one armor), and you can become super-powerful in any way. On my file, Yuna hits for 9999 damage with her physical attack. Should a Summoner really be allowed to do that?

Yes, if your other characters are doing 99 999 as their minimum damage.

IMO overpowered attacks are awesome as long as they are backed up by insane looking moves. Take for example Disgaea. I know its a srpg, but the characters can go up to lv 9999 and do an insane amount of damage, some which can do a billion damage. It's always a blast seeing my character do it especially doing it to a weak enemy and saying "Oh yeah, look at what I can do"

I can understand why everyone hates random encounters since there are times when you don't want to fight and then they make you. Also it takes times just to load the damn battle screen and Lost Odyssey suffered from this cause not only did it take 10 freaking seconds to load the battle they also took the liberty to show you the scenery of the battle field. I JUST WANT TO FIGHT DAMNIT!!!

.Hack//GU is my favourite rpg cause it removes random encounters and turn based style into a more active gameplay. Not only can you move around and constantly attack your enemy in the battle screen you can see the enemies outside of battle and sneak attack them.

Natural Hazard:
Leave.. them as they are, look at LO, i have never had that much fun with a game for along time, it was a fairly basic in its mechanics, going back to the traditional Conditional turn based battle system, with random encounters.. Honestly screw enemys on-screen, screw advanced WRPG battle systems, if you were a true JRPG fan all you would care about was the direction of the story whilst all others are just a filler. A game doesn't have to be good just becasue it did something different to the last one, get over it play it and move on xD.

While this thread seems to have attracted a lot more "JRPG's suck they should be more (or exactly) like WRPG's" I've gotta say that there are some changes that should be made... in places.

1) Turn Based Battles: These should STAY, realtime always feels too random, but they should be improved. Look at games like Shadow Hearts, Paper Mario and Grandia 3, all of these are turn based games that try and make Turn Based more exciting by adding in other elements. Paper Mario and Shadow Hearts both use hit timing, and Paper Mario and the Thousand Year door has a different control method for every attack. Grandia 3 does an amazing job of mixing action and turn based by making when you hit just as important as how and the real time combo system really makes things exciting.

2) World Design: A lot of JRPG's feel a little too random in their world design, the worst offenders in this category are Enchanted Arms, Lost Oddysey, FFX-2 (which really fucked with the otherwise well designed Spira) and the Star Ocean games. The best examples of World Design are the Suikoden series (large world full of distinct regions, cultures and races), Final Fantasy XII

OK, sorry if I didn't get a chance to fully read through this thread. I'm on a bit of a time frame and just wanted to throw something out there.

Among the issues I have with JRPGs, one that stands out the most is level grinding. In games like Darksun or Fallout, the level grinding is minimal. Between the four games that consist those two series, I can only remember grinding at the very beginning of Darksun: Shattered Lands, and maybe a few times in Darksun: Wake of the Ravager. That's it. Otherwise, experience is given whenever I use a skill, and given at such a rate that is evenly paced throughout the game such that progression is natural, and I'm allowed to simply focus on the tasks at hand rather than going outside and running in circles blowing a random encounter mating call.

This is a huge thing for me, actually. I don't like my games to be a chore. I hate forced tedium. I've gone back to play Darksun and Fallout and their respective sequels because I had fun and was allowed to do what I wanted and not have to care about killing enough slimes to learn a new ability. With JRPGs, they can consider themselves lucky if I keep playing to the halfway point before throwing it in. Games should not be chores. San Andreas turned GTA into a chore; I played Vice City for about a year without even doing half the missions, just going out and having fun. Then San Andreas ruined it by forcing me to take care of my character more than I even take care of myself in real life.

Whether it be JRPGs or not, here's the key to winning my favour; extend the life of your product by making me want to play your game more, not by forcing me to. I already have other things going on in my life that I practically have to plan in advance to book myself time to get into any serious gaming, and if the game tries to force me to play it with constant level grinding, then so long as I have a power button, I'm not afraid to shut it off and do something else.

end_boss:

Among the issues I have with JRPGs, one that stands out the most is level grinding. In games like Darksun or Fallout, the level grinding is minimal. Between the four games that consist those two series, I can only remember grinding at the very beginning of Darksun: Shattered Lands, and maybe a few times in Darksun: Wake of the Ravager. That's it. Otherwise, experience is given whenever I use a skill, and given at such a rate that is evenly paced throughout the game such that progression is natural, and I'm allowed to simply focus on the tasks at hand rather than going outside and running in circles blowing a random encounter mating call.

This is a huge thing for me, actually. I don't like my games to be a chore. I hate forced tedium. I've gone back to play Darksun and Fallout and their respective sequels because I had fun and was allowed to do what I wanted and not have to care about killing enough slimes to learn a new ability. With JRPGs, they can consider themselves lucky if I keep playing to the halfway point before throwing it in. Games should not be chores. San Andreas turned GTA into a chore; I played Vice City for about a year without even doing half the missions, just going out and having fun. Then San Andreas ruined it by forcing me to take care of my character more than I even take care of myself in real life.

Whether it be JRPGs or not, here's the key to winning my favour; extend the life of your product by making me want to play your game more, not by forcing me to. I already have other things going on in my life that I practically have to plan in advance to book myself time to get into any serious gaming, and if the game tries to force me to play it with constant level grinding, then so long as I have a power button, I'm not afraid to shut it off and do something else.

As someone who always skipped leveling until I couldn't progress further, I find this a great statement on something that should be improved in JRPG's. They claim to be "cinematic" games, yet all of the Bioware products require significantly less grinding, rarely do you come to a point where you aren't levelled enough. Why not build games more around being able to quickly progress through interesting battles and areas from story sequence to story sequence and skip all this power leveling crap.

Cinematic is a strength, and JRPG's need to play to that instead of offering me a "playable movie" that comes to a screeching halt and forces me to grind every other boss.

I look at all these complaints and I can't but help think that that most of you complaining have only really played the mainstream vanilla JRPG's. Want a good game where you don't save the world? Play Suikoden V. What to play an anti-hero? Disgaea. Charater growth not entirely dependent of fighting? Mana Khemia. Non- random encounters? That's become a rather big list. More blood? Try almost any Shin Megami Tensei game, (Though it tends to be the localization that screws a lot of games on that. Yes I am bitter about Xenosaga Ep 3.).

Almost any complaint on this board, all I can think is What about (insert name here)?

As for the inherit superiority of WRPG's, I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps I just haven't played an good ones, because all the ones I've played were like glorified dungeon crawls.
Borrrring.

Lets not forget the double grinding. If it aint bad enough building up your main party most jrpgs then seperate your groups in the storyline thus youre stuck using your weak backup group. I recently stopped playing FFX again just because I am sick of battles taking 3 times as long because I have to swap every char in and use them once just so they get some exp.

Try almost any Shin Megami Tensei game, (Though it tends to be the localization that screws a lot of games on that).

I dunno, I think we got it pretty good with some of the SMT games. I do want to see a Persona 2 Innocent Sin port though(maybe with better graphics even), even though I know it'll never happen.

... i think you are forgetting one thing, Some RPGs generally require some form of "grinding" as you all so nicely put it, to gain levels and certain stats, etc... So.. with that in hindsite.. if you knew that you would have to be doing some form of grinding.. why play the game in the first place? Personally i have never had a problem grinding enemies, for an hour or so, its not tedious and at the end of the day.. who says you have to? JRPGS' aren't known for being Mega hard, so maybe just fighting for a bit whilst going to the designated location, will be sufficient enough to get you along.

If it bugs you so much, don't play it. Becasue at the end of the day the guys making them probably won't give a dam about your complaints anyway, as grinding has never really been an issue, more of a pet peeve.

I dunno, I think we got it pretty good with some of the SMT games. I do want to see a Persona 2 Innocent Sin port though(maybe with better graphics even), even though I know it'll never happen.

I was talking about blood being removed from a lot of JRPG games when they were localized (such as Xenosaga Ep 3), not Shin Megami Tensei games being screwed in localizations.

Kastere:
Make every JRPG steampunk and with morally ambiguous protagonists. This fixes EVERYTHING.

... that's pretty much exactly what I want out of a game/movie/novel setting... I think I have a problem.

Now all I'll be able to do is desperately hope until some developer decides to make that game. Everything is ruined forever!

X-com route. Problem solved.

Because we all know the only JRPGs ever created are FFVI through FFXII.

Fenixius:

And take note, Papaya Melancholy, every RPG you've ever played is stat based. The only variable is how much they let you in on it, whether it's D20 based and you can know every roll of the dice if you so choose, or Final Fantasy, where you have stats and you can see them change, but never learn exactly how they correspond to attack damage and other values.

STATS!! OH GOD STATS!!!!

It's not the stats themselves I don't like, it's where I'm forced to keep track of who has what stats where that it gets infuriating. And really, is there that much disparity between a level one and level ninety-nine? Only like a month or something has passed. You know? It's like you travel for a month and suddenly your defence is so high, monsters that could kill you in one hit now can't even hurt you.

That's another thing with JRPGs. Half the time it doesn't even make sense that there are random monsters wandering around that only exist to try to kill you.
And that they gradually become more powerful as you move in x direction.

One time I made a post about how games should have eco-systems. If you've played FFXII, you can see how eco-ish JRPGs can be. Some of the monsters don't even try to kill you. And they are all depicted as if in their natural environment. Wouldn't that be the greatist if there were actual ecosystems? This is what I am thinking.

Anyways, I must say I really love RPGs.

Even linear story-lines!!
I love linear story-lines. They are usually very well done (or seemed like it when I was 14...) and have so much potential. Non-linear storylines are often disjointed and don't have the same lovely even pace that a linear one does. You see? Life is crazy.

Also, one thing about FFXII, that may be revealing of JRPGs in general:
I didn't like the plot so much.
"But why?" Ask you. "It was pretty good."
Yeah, well so anyways. What bugged me about the plot was that the characters weren't in it. There was so very very little chracterization for a Final Fantasy it is just silly. I had no idea what Penelo thought of Ashe or Basch thought of Fran. You couldn't tell the way they interacted. All they did was react: to events. The crazy events that went on. Those crazy ones. They were pretty interesting; but the characters just become dolls!
Dolls to stick your stats in!

AGGHHH STAAAATSSS!!!

I would LOVE to see a fully-fledged mystery game. There've been a couple: a few Agatha Christie ports (yes, seriously!) - another one that I can recall where you played a security advisor in the US Government who was trying to unmask a traitor working close to the President; one particularly good game set in London in the early 1900s which was a cross between Sherlock Holmes and Jack the Ripper. (Can't remember what that one was called unfortunately.) But this is very very hard to do.

And let me reproduce a post from another thread here:

I wish that someone would develop a great engine for interacting with NPCs. One that would make it just as likely that a wolf would run away and hide from you as it is that it would fly at your throat. One where everything animate could be friendly or neutral as well as hostile (except for the really nasty monsters of course, but they'd be the exception). One where you could negotiate or barter with goblins or bandits perhaps, instead of getting into an unavoidable to-the-death fight. Also, characters would react differently according to what they'd seen you do (a civvy who's seen you hand money to a beggar is going to react very differently than one who's seen you stab the beggar in the throat), what their and your circumstances are, what clothes or armour you wear, etc. Seriously, is it that difficult, given the technology we've got at the moment? If you can make a playable engine like Bioshock's, you can certainly do what I've said above. But nobody ever has yet.

I could imagine a great RPG that could be made like this. It would mean that "personality" as a statistic meant something other than just spellcasting ability, speechcraft could be vital to a stealthy or negotiator-type character, and best play strategy would incorporate lots of non-fighting elements, as well as several actual fighting ones that can't be used effectively when there's really only one tactic that hostile NPCs use - all out offence. (Mastery of the bow for example - in games like Oblivion, the bow is practically useless when every other living thing you're likely to come across anywhere other than on city streets is guaranteed to go for your throat before you've got time to draw it. What if you could use your bow on retreating NPCs, or ones that stay at a distance without attacking? What if NPCs like wolves waited to gang up on you with other nearby wolves before going after you - would you be able to spoil their plans with a well-timed bow shot or throwing dagger? And would killing one wolf with a bow cause others to run away in panic or attack out of rage? What if different wolves reacted differently, randomly or according to how many others were nearby?)

The effect of always hostile NPCs is that only an absolute nitwit would choose to play a "stealth" or "personality" type character over one who's a master at hitting people with swords, summoning demons or spewing high-level fireballs. In 95% of RPGs that I've played, there's practically no point in choosing any character except a high-level wizard or warrior. I put this entirely down to the total lack of intelligence when dealing with non-human characters. Does it have to be this way?

I'd posted this elsewhere but it's obviously very relevant here. Still, apologies about the double-post!

For most of above, see Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne.