Working from the assumption that the new Prince of Persia game will be a quality product do you think it can survive the sales curse of this particular style of presentation?

Personally I've been a huge fan of cel-shaded graphics for years.
The fantastic Jet Set Radio introduced me and following that I've tracked down games ranging from mediocre efforts like Auto Modelista to the pure unadulterated genius of No More Heroes and Okami but all of them have one thing in common: They don't sell.

The Legend of Zelda is probably the largest francise to go CS and that did sell in big quantities - but we all know that you could scribble 'Zelda' on a Rise of the Robots cartridge and it would sell out quicker than Kanye West.
Prince of Persia doesn't have the benefit of this dedicated a following but it is, nonetheless, the next biggest name to go all cartoony on us.
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Tellingly the developers are refusing to call it cel-shading - opting for 'Illustrative' instead - and a pedant would doubtless point out that they are not actuallt using true cel-shading techniques... but vacuum cleaners are Hoovers and all the protestations in the world won't stop anyone calling this a cel-shaded game.

So can they pull it off?
Can Ubisoft make a cel-shader that doesn't have shady sales?

...and if anyone can explain to me WHY cel-shading is such a commercial disaster I'd love to know.

The screenshots look beautiful, effectively capturing the ornate ancient Arabian style as well as the dynamism of the hero. The problem with Okami wasn't the strangeness of its art design but the lack of a recognisable brand - everyone's heard of Zelda, even outside the sphere of videogames. Likewise, but to a lesser extent, the Prince of Persia has seeped into the mass-market consciousness, and as such any threat of poor sales will not be born out of its cell-shaded veneer but by it being a shit game. Which, we hope, it won't be.

I've never been certain why people hate cel-shading so much. When its done right it can be quite aesthetically appealing (see Viewtiful Joe). I'd say that the big problem for it is that judging by the trailer it's world-hopped several thousand kilometres and ended up in Japan.

As long as it's of high quality then I think it will work. The new prince of persia games have been great (even warrior within, despite what people say) and should serve as an indicator that Ubisoft are prepared to treat their creation with respect.

I think it's a good idea to make a completely different prince of persia game and not to start flogging the horse, four would be too many titles too similar. Especially since Assassin's Creed seemed to be the natural development to an open-world type wall-running etc thing and from the very first moment I saw it it reminded me of prince of persia.

Cel-shaded (or 'illustrative') games are often overlooked, but they've been growing in exposure and popularity lately due to things like Zelda and No More Heroes so I don't think we should worry that the medium won't sell. Personally I really quite like the cel-shaded look and it means that developers are not spending all their time creating a new colour of brown and can instead focus on making a good game, realistic graphics are by far not everything.

This new game looks pretty cool at the moment and it looks like Ubisoft won't stuff it up.

Wasn't Jet Set Radio originally for the Dreamcast?
Neithern No more heroes or Okami had (or have) much advertising oomph behind them either.

Team Fortress 2's selling fine and thats cell shaded.

With regards to the new PoP, no. That game is going to dive bomb faster than a Ju-87Stuka.
Reading the press releases is pretty much an itemised list of we'll make it like game X with bits from game Y.
How many games that begin with the phrase "Like Grand theft auto but" or "Like Zelda but" actually sell well?

This one is going to be "Like Okami, Shadow of the Colossus, Twilight Princess, Soul Calibur, God of War (prepare for QTE's), Grand theft auto and Metal Gear Solid but"
But what? But shit is the probable answer.

Also the game has no reason to exist under the PoP name, the story was finished with PoP3 so Ubi and the devs are clearly phoning it in to make as much money as possible.

It's also cel shaded which in this case probably means: Rubbish graphics to cut the development time.
These are the devs that brought us Sands of Time and Assasin's Creed, if it's anything less than gobsmackingly beautiful there'll be hell to pay.

fix-the-spade:

How many games that begin with the phrase "Like Grand theft auto but" or "Like Zelda but" actually sell well?

But that says far less about the game than it does the marketing dept or the games press.
It's just lazy work all round and something of constant annoyance to me.
I've heard Okami described as 'like Zelda with a dog' and no quarter given to the fact that it's actually better than all of Links adventures in 3D land.

fix-the-spade:
It's also cel shaded which in this case probably means: Rubbish graphics to cut the development time.

Have you seen the trailer/screen shots? They look stunning!

I definately like the new direction the series seems to be taking, progressive without killing it's soul. The game also has a pretty strong brand name and if marketed properly it could sell very well. As long as they get the people who did the Assassins Creed trailers to do the ones here.

fix-the-spade:
Trimmed for space

Firstly, Team Fortress 2 is not cell-shaded. EDIT: Whoops, got that one wrong

Secondly, I've read the press release, and I can understand your concerns. Until I've played the game I can't possibly quash them, but from the description that Guyot gives, it sounds quite cool.

Thirdly, you do realise that the Sands of Time Trilogy was the second iteration of the Prince of Persia, don't you? It could be argued that Sand of Time had no business using the name either.

Fourthly, have you seen some of the screen shots? They look amazing! Even if it turns out to be dreadful, I really like the look of this game.

Just saw a trailer for it and the graphics are brilliant. It doesn't even look anything like cel-shaded Zelda or Okami. I just wish they'd release it for Wii

nilcypher:

fix-the-spade:
Trimmed for space

Firstly, Team Fortress 2 is not cell-shaded. (Oh yes it is :D)
Secondly, I've read the press release
Thirdly, you do realise that the Sands of Time
Fourthly, have you seen some of the screen shots?

I confess, I haven't seen any screens from it yet.
I looked, it's very pretty, but why is the guy clearly western with anime hair? At least the old Prince looked vaguely Persian.

I am aware of the 2-D Prince from back in the day. But the Sands of Time was an all new game, storyline and developers more than 10 years after the original franchise (lets just ignore PoP 3D), it had a lot of things to prove when it came out. This is a publisher adding another title to an established franchise. At the same time as selling the film rights to Disney AND making a Wii game, all under the same over all title. Surely that sets off your cash in alarms.

JaguarWong:

I've heard Okami described as 'like Zelda with a dog' and no quarter given to the fact that it's actually better than all of Links adventures in 3D land.

But on the PS2 Okami bombed, don't know about Wii.
Indeed, most reviewers described it as like Zelda with a Dog. Instantly 80% of the gaming population switched off. Either because they didn't like Zelda or they did and just assumed it was a knock off clone.

Describing it as like X but instantly puts an assumption in people minds. Which is a shame seeing as how good Okami is.

fix-the-spade:

I am aware of the 2-D Prince from back in the day. But the Sands of Time was an all new game, storyline and developers more than 10 years after the original franchise (lets just ignore PoP 3D), it had a lot of things to prove when it came out. This is a publisher adding another title to an established franchise. At the same time as selling the film rights to Disney AND making a Wii game, all under the same over all title. Surely that sets off your cash in alarms.

That's pretty much what a franchise is.

I could understand your concerns if they were just rehashing the older games, but surely the graphics alone tell you that they're trying something new?

By the way, I fixed my mistake about TF2 before you pointed it out. Apologies for that one.

fix-the-spade:

Indeed, most reviewers described it as like Zelda with a Dog. Instantly 80% of the gaming population switched off.

Exactly - Reviewers and other lazy arse journalists are the problem, not the games themselves. If a games own marketing department are doing this then they should all be fired... and blacklisted.

It's like describing Driver as "like Turbo Esprit with a story" - or Virtua Tennis 3 as "like Pong with people". It's just ridiculous and could be applied to just about every game ever made.

Cel Shading is awesome. I've played my fair share of games (TF2, JetSet Radio Future, Okami, etc.) and I just think it's another way of making a game. Of course, you *could* make a game realistic, but I think that some games would actually be better cel shaded.

Apparently, some narrow-minded people started the rumor that cel-shading = childish. Worry not, we'll thin them out eventually through this extensive human breeding program I'm working on.

Team Fortress 2 doesn't use cel-shading.

LordCraigus:
Team Fortress 2 doesn't use cel-shading.

Taken an eye test recently?

Whatever the technical name they gave it is. Or however much the Valve boys talk about J.C. Leyendecker or any other 20's illustrator. Or however desperate the gaming world is to call it something, anything else. It's still cel shading.

I don't think it will dethrone the prince, but rather open the game up to another market. The hardcore fans will play regardless and the cell shaded fans will play because it introduces a new series into their ranks. I have a feeling it will kind of be like Zelda where everyone has an opinion, but everyone still played it (and continues to do so)

Who cares what it is? We can agree that it looks great instead!

Nope, it looks awesome and as long as its well made it'll be fine.

I'm actually going to have to back the developers on this one. From the shots I've seen, I don't know that I would describe it to people as "cel-shaded" but more along the lines of what developer Ben Mattes said: "a playable illustration." (Maybe even "stylized," but when I think "cel-shaded," I think Dragon's Lair. PoP3 looks colorful, but not cartoony.)

To touch on one of the OP's points, I think this is why a lot of people (like me) are turned off by so-called cel-shaded games. I don't WANT to play an illustration. I also don't want to watch a feature film, thank you very much, Metal Gear Solid. Some people do, and more power to them, but I'd rather pay for immersion, not to play someone's concept art.

JaguarWong:

fix-the-spade:

Indeed, most reviewers described it as like Zelda with a Dog. Instantly 80% of the gaming population switched off.

Exactly - Reviewers and other lazy arse journalists are the problem, not the games themselves. If a games own marketing department are doing this then they should all be fired... and blacklisted.

It's like describing Driver as "like Turbo Esprit with a story" - or Virtua Tennis 3 as "like Pong with people". It's just ridiculous and could be applied to just about every game ever made.

It's super-handy. Just don't be narrow-minded to dismiss it when you read it.

I'm not sure whether I'm look forward to this PoP or not. Personally I think the game hasn't been the same since Sands of Time. The darker root Warrior Within took just made the game unappealing to me. Where as I completed SoT in 2 days I play WW for a day that didn't return to it for another month. Sure, I did get into the game eventually, but it just wasn't the same game. Two Thrones I liked. It took bits of both games and mixed them to make a good all rounder. If it wasn't for the annoying sections with the dark prince it would be my faviourt in the series.

Now I do like the new cel-shaded look PoP seems to be taking. I also like the idea that the games taking a step away from the dark edge WW brought to the game and creating a whole new prince. But, the recent trailer worried me. Is it me, or does this remind anyone of FF? Sure, I like the look, but I'm sure how I feel about...well, the feel.

Oh, and do I think this new look will make the Prince under sell. Well...No, but I don't think it will sell nearly as well as WW or TT. "Badass" and grey sells better that Cel-shading, thats simply a fact.

The big problem people have with cel-shading, I've found, is that it appears cartoon-y. People in general see it and think one of two things: 1) It's a Japanese game, and thus will/won't buy it based solely on where they think it's from. or 2) It looks like a kid's game since it looks like a cartoon.

Now, that's not saying all people are like that, but the majority are. People like what they recognize, and if they don't recognize the franchise then they'll assume cel-shading means it's Japanese or childish, and most of the time they'll be right as cel-shading began with Japanese anime and then passed over into video games.

However, the Prince of Persia is a recognizable figure. and with recognition comes acceptance. Once the general populous plays the cel-shaded game, they'll realize how good looking they really are and rethink their previous buying decisions.

I've seen lots of concept art and screenshots for the Prince of Persia, and I think the game could look good in CS. Also, it's not plain old conventional CS, it's like your painting a movie picture. I think this could be an inventive new direction for PoP, and I'm waiting to see where it goes.

So to paraphrase what you're (Sethran) saying:
The poor sales performance of game in this style is less about the cel shading on it's own and more to do with the majority of cel shaded games being original IPs... and original IPs don't sell...

You may have something there... which is quite sad really...

JaguarWong:
So to paraphrase what you're (Sethran) saying:
The poor sales performance of game in this style is less about the cel shading on it's own and more to do with the majority of cel shaded games being original IPs... and original IPs don't sell...

You may have something there... which is quite sad really...

That's a good way to put it.

What's even worse is, this only really applies in the western countries. The eastern gaming populations have proven to be far more open-minded about IPs than the west, probably because we're in general a more capitalistic society who likes to see familiar things that we know will be worth the buy.

Even though I know and acknowledge this, I too am guilty of it. The last completely unknown game I purchased was Samurai Legend Musashi, and that was several years ago and I only got that because I recognized the name Musashi. I think if big name companies would stop force feeding us familiar games we might be able to work out way out of it, but that would take some time...

*points to DBZ:Burst Limit*

I think Goku would like a word with you:p

I think as long as the game turns out to be as fun with as many creative platforming moments as the first one for the xbox then I will be purchasing it.

I think it will do just fine with cel-shading for two reasons, 1) it is an established franchise and 2) it won't just be on the Wii, where most cel-shaded games end up, and we all know how 3rd party games do on that system.

The problem with cell-shaded style is that most games that actually use it can't do it in a way that does not look like ass. I can think of maybe one or two games I have played that have used this style that actually made it work. Even then I am a proponent of getting colour in games to actually match the real world which seems to be something that eludes the entire gaming industry.

shadow skill:
The problem with cell-shaded style is that most games that actually use it can't do it in a way that does not look like ass. I can think of maybe one or two games I have played that have used this style that actually made it work. Even then I am a proponent of getting colour in games to actually match the real world which seems to be something that eludes the entire gaming industry.

Couldn't that be summed up better by "The look of cel-shaded games isn't really my bag"?

Actually, I think that this art direction the art team is taking is gonna pay off. I mean, it looks pretty good from where I'm sitting. Maybe it's just me, but I don;t really think that cell-shading will kill the game. In the end, it's all about gameplay.

If anything, I think it will make it more interesting than before

I wasn't too keen on the earlier PoP games for the gamecube and such stylistically, I think the new one is going to be one to catch a lot of peoples attention

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the graphics and is excited about the gameplay characteristics they are bragging about? Why are we even talking about this?

*Reads title of thread* Oh right...

I'm going to take a well known opinion on this matter: It's actually a breeze of fresh air in this current generation of "everything is a shade of brown and gray" graphic like games.<