LoganAsh:

Nintendogs and Halo 3 hardly count. Nintendogs is basically slapping the "girls like cut things" label about, not really addressing females gamers. Halo 3 is just a standard shooters, it's nothing new, so i don't know why you brought it up. Yes it has female characters, but read my above post fo an expansion on the idea.

Guys like Nintendogs too now dogs are Girl only? I still don't see the problem with Halo 3 I mean you can be a girl spartan online andThe most bad ass in RvB is Tex.

Besides, most of the dogs aren't even that cute.

Sometimes comics explain certain conundrums rather succinctly.

In any case one "in-depth" genre that traditionally gets females playing are RPGs. Even single player ones. Most JRPGs particularly have side plots with love interests and design their protagonists as non-threatening (androgynous) males. Games are somewhat more prevalent among females in the far east, but this also has to do with dating "sims", economics of game production and genre preferences.

I've met many female gamers, and the more socially inclined they are the less likely they are to mention themselves as a gamer. Some small scale social studies do reference stigma for girls and gaming (sorry I don't have a link handy).

LoganAsh:

My point exactly. I never said make the games all girly, most girl gamers arn't girly (a large issue is companies thinking that if they make a girly game, they've catred for females, which is dead wrong) but games that are more balanced would be much more widely recieved I believe.

Balancing a game between being macho and girly is still making it more girly. The demand for such a thing has been imaginary, unless you can point out an instance where having a female character caused a game to sell a lot more copies than it would have otherwise sold.

BloodSquirrel:

LoganAsh:

My point exactly. I never said make the games all girly, most girl gamers arn't girly (a large issue is companies thinking that if they make a girly game, they've catred for females, which is dead wrong) but games that are more balanced would be much more widely recieved I believe.

Balancing a game between being macho and girly is still making it more girly. The demand for such a thing has been imaginary, unless you can point out an instance where having a female character caused a game to sell a lot more copies than it would have otherwise sold.

Most FF titles.. as mentioned above by AntiAntagonist, they're popular with females because, I believe, of their non-macho style, emotive themes and often a better choice of strong female characters. I've got a good female friend who loves FF7 because of Aeris and Tifa. They're just as important as the men she says. Plus, apparently the game play on FF games is at a slower pace, but that's just her opinion.
You want an example, there you go, FF games sell very well with females and when I can find some statistics i'll post them.

As i've said, females gaming is a relatively new idea for some and so not many games have been given the chance to shine in the females market.

My mom likes Mario 64 and that apparently is stereotypically (Only game she plays other than solitaire on PC)

Just to state my opinion on things first and foremost, saying that "games are for men" comes off as a little sexist. I know women, plenty of women, who play World of WarCraft, HALO 3, Gears of War, Final Fantasy, Mario, Pokemon, Silent Hill, Tony Hawk, Castlevania etc. and etc. to the point of obsession. If games are "for men," can you define what is "for women?" How can you attach a label such as "FOR MEN?" What is "for women?" What elements could designers and marketing departments focus on to bring out the "female" demographic?

I can only really speak from experience. Typically, the women I've known either enjoy video games, or do not enjoy video games. There really is no "middle ground" wherein nongamer females are attracted to video games; female gamers are already hooked and know what they like. For example, my friend Anna* has played every Legend of Zelda and Mario since the NES. She loves platformers and adventure titles, and has pretty much beaten Disagaea front to back. There's a little bit of every genre in her game cabinet, except for "scary" games like Fatal Frame or Silent Hill. On the contrary, my friend Natalie* is a fiend at HALO and delves right into Resident Evil (for the GC, she is admittedly a "pretty games only" kind of girl). She won't touch Zelda because it looks "too cartoony."

Really, I don't see where a line can be put down in the sand stating "These games are for women" unless you want to start pulling stereotypes, which will offend more female gamers than anything.

* - The names have been changed to protect the guilty.

J'aen:
How can you gear games towards women when they aren't geared towards men in the first place?

I dont think its being geared to exclude women, its just what has worked in the past. Up until now we haven't really had as many girl gamers. Games are just targeted at men because we buy them.

Not denying that this is changing but it's still early days.

Male games still sell the best (GTA 4,Halo 3) so don't expect a change anytime soon.

I know I've stated this before but...
Games Popular Among Female Gamers I Know:
- Zelda Series
- Harvest Moon Series
- Final Fantasy Series
- Silent Hill (For those who like Horror)
- Any Adventure Game period stop.
- Prince of Persia Series
- Pokemon Series
- Persona 3
- Puzzle Quest
- Ico
- Shadow of the Colossus
- Soul Caliber Series
- Metroid/Metroid Prime Series

Games That The Girl Gamers I Know Hate:
- Halo (Some of them, they just find it samey and boring)
- Grand Theft Auto (Too much random violence, unlikable characters)
- Saints Row (same reason)
- Dead or Alive Series (too much unreal boobage, oddly they find Xtreme Beach Volleyball funny in its t&a focus.)

The conclusions I have drawn is that girls like (in no particular order)...
- Strong Story
- Good Characters
- Intriguing Gameplay
- Artistic Graphics
- Cute Graphics

Takanaki:
Where is the comfortable middle ground? If you want a game with a female heroine, what about Samus. The Metroid series has plenty of shooting etcetera in it. Sure, she's eye-candy, but as with anything hollywood or mass produced image is a key point to consider.

She wasn't... until Nintendo decided that a gritty, mature character was obviously too much for a woman to handle. <_<

(how the fuck did

this

turn into

this)

But Japanese sexism isn't the topic at hand here.

I don't think it's necessarily that games don't attract females, I think you're just looking in the wrong places. It seems to me that a lot more females are into PC gaming than consoles. In particular, older communities like Team Fortress or Jedi Academy that don't require super PCs and have a higher concentration of mature older players, seem to attract more of them.

ok my only point of reference for a girl gammer is my wife she likes playing on pogo.com, she has a ds and shes a huge fan of the sims. she seems to enjoy games that are more based on things shes fimiliar with like card games and living life. ive gotten her to play games with me before but she is intemdated by the complex contorls although she did beat me playing nfl2k5 a few years ago she was so proud. what all this means im not sure but i think games and movies are simliair in the way the appeal to people. most men arent in to romantic movies and most women arent into sci fi and action movies however there are male fans of romantic movies and women who love sci fi and action movies. the difference there are few middle of the road games like movies because men and women both seem to enjoy dramtic and comdey movies about the same.

i think nintendo dose the best job appealing to both sexs.the wide varity and fimiliar chacrters have great mass apeal.

Susan Arendt:
Game developers don't need to try and attract more women, they need to try and attract more people (of which women are a subset, last I checked). The learning curve to get into gaming is huge. Not just learning the complexities of the controller (which is quite a task for someone who's new to gaming) but also in the type of game experiences offered. Most games seem to require a certain amount of innate knowledge of the player, things we, as gamers, don't even realize we know. What's a hit point? What's mana? What does "respawn" mean? Even something as simple as moving through a 3-D landscape can be daunting to the new player.

People don't like to feel stupid, and a non-gamer trying to make sense of so much information all at once very frequently is left feeling stupid, and as a result gives up.

So the industry doesn't need to worry about attracting women, it needs to convince people that a) the money they would spend on a gaming system would be worth it, and b) they, too, can have good experiences in the gaming world.

This may be part of the issue. My wife, for example, is interested in some of the gameplay elements of Gears of War and COD4, but the controls are just alien to her. He enjoys old school Mario. She can completely school me in some Super Mario 3. She does ,however, like the inclusion of stong female characters (Halo 3 for example). And this fact could entice her to try and learn more complex controls. Now conversly, I have a female friend who is a very casual gamer (Guitar hero and Wii) who loves to try her hand at Halo and Gears when she has the chance.

In reference to the complicated controls, I don't think there is any good solution here. If you make a FPS with simple contorls, you may loose your hardcore gamers. I think the Wii is the answer for appealing to a larger audience. We have one and I only play it with company, but my wife enjoys Mario anytime. So I don't think the Wii has really satisfied the hardcore gamer in me. To speak directly to the forum topic, I think you can definatly make something that is geared more towards a female crowd, but it will be less geared towards other crowds. It is not really a gender question, it is a question as to what type of gamer are you. Are you one who likes a slower paced, less difficult control style (FF, Wii games), or are you a hardcore gamer that likes fast action and a good thumb exercise.

Susan Arendt:
Most games seem to require a certain amount of innate knowledge of the player, things we, as gamers, don't even realize we know. What's a hit point? What's mana? What does "respawn" mean? Even something as simple as moving through a 3-D landscape can be daunting to the new player.

People don't like to feel stupid, and a non-gamer trying to make sense of so much information all at once very frequently is left feeling stupid, and as a result gives up.

No guy is born knowing what mana, Hit points, and respawn mean. You start gaming for fun and learn the game as you go. This process might involve some frustration, but it is necessary. If people only played games they knew, then no one would ever play games, except developers of course.

And putting a female avatar into a game does not count as catering to the female demographic. If they made all the player avatars in Counter Strike female, that would not all of the sudden make girls come flocking to it, and if it did, somethings screwed up, because its the same game. I think at this point it is unclear what games the general female population would be into. From studies, the #1 most popular is The Sims, but after that its Grand Theft Auto. I agree with previous posters that there are no games geared especially towards woman, just like how there are no games geared especially towards men, a game is a game, guys just happen to be more interested I guess.

actually, i think Sony has a plethora of content on PSN that appeals to a wide range of consumers. unfortunately though, they don't market anything on PSN.

if they would market PSN titles, the same way they marketed Patapon in Japan, then i think they could crack open the female market abroad.

Women don't want to play games, otherwise they would already be playing them. If you design a bunch of games just for women, you're gonna get some pretty shitty titles that nobody wants to play.

Cooking Mama, yeah that game was interesting, but how far can you go with games like that?
Bitch, make me a sandwich! might not get as much respect. (Multiplayer would be awesome though, you could either be the Meth-addict woman, or the drunk wife-beater.)

Ok why is it if a female character is well developed and attractive then it is directed at guys (in a typical game not talking the hentia games comin from Japan) but a well developed roid ridden, spends 10 days a week in the gym, male character is a character directed at guys? Do women have the market cornered on body issues?

squid5580:
Ok why is it if a female character is well developed and attractive then it is directed at guys (in a typical game not talking the hentia games comin from Japan) but a well developed roid ridden, spends 10 days a week in the gym, male character is a character directed at guys? Do women have the market cornered on body issues?

*From a guy* I've never heard of many women that are attracted to super buff guys. Fit, yeah, but not roid rampagers (though I'm sure there are a few).

If you aren't serious then: good attempt (good premise and conclusion idea), just punch up the writing a but more.

LoganAsh:

Most FF titles.. as mentioned above by AntiAntagonist, they're popular with females because, I believe, of their non-macho style, emotive themes and often a better choice of strong female characters. I've got a good female friend who loves FF7 because of Aeris and Tifa.

FF sells well because it's the quintessential JRPG. Do you have any sales statistics showing sales of girly JRPGs versus non-girly JRPGs (if you can find such a creature)? This is rather important if you're going to try to argue that you can get more girls to buy a game, especially in a different genre, if you make it less macho. Different demographics buy different types of games, and if you made an FPS that was the kind of cutscene-dominated wankfest that JRPGs tend to be it would probably wind up being a complete flop. Many of the things that attract people to JRPGS (like the fact that they're easy as hell) would be considered a major flaw in a shooter.

What do you propose that a developer does to make a game appeal to a female audience?

And what projects "Men Only" from games? The only games I can think of that came off that way deliberately were The Guy Game, and the Extreme Beach Volleyball series.

squid5580:
Ok why is it if a female character is well developed and attractive then it is directed at guys (in a typical game not talking the hentia games comin from Japan) but a well developed roid ridden, spends 10 days a week in the gym, male character is a character directed at guys? Do women have the market cornered on body issues?

actually, i think that everybody is looking at the wrong aspects of game design. there is the assumption that guns and violence automatically do not appeal to women, well i suggest that maybe it's the dynamics of First Person and even some 3D games that doesn't appeal to them.

many of us take it for granted, but it took each and every one of us time to acclimate and adapt to the abstract spatial reasoning that modern games require. most us though, developed that ability at the same rate that game technology developed so for us, that adaptation is invisible. for people that don't play games at all, there was no gradual development. they lack that spatial process and these games can make them naucious and confused.

i think this is the major reason why older people, children, and women who don't typically play games are usually attracted to puzzle games or anything with a more static perspective.

First of all, you need to consider this. How many games does the average woman buy? How many games does the average man buy? I'm willing to bet that a guy gamer spends far more on video games than a girl gamer does.

Secondly, what exactly would you do to "appeal to women"? Make more games like Final Fantasy X-2 and risk losing your original audience? Add a romance line to Gears of War? I often hear people complain about the lack of strong female characters, but is there any strong evidence to suggest that games which do have strong female characters (yes, there are plenty of them) sell better with women?

Also, what you are saying is rather contradicting. You claim that in order for Sony and Microsoft to make more money they should appeal to women, but then forget that appealing to a new market that is hard to pin comes at great financial risks.

You have to remember that while trying to appeal to a new audience can bring in the big bucks like Nintendo, it also does come with financial risk.

Easy: just make yet another Naruto, Guitar Hero or Halo game. Chicks swarm around macho stupidity.

Why does it seem to me, that this thread looks to be about a bunch of 13 year-old boys argueing with a girl??

To be honest, I am curious why Mass Effect hasn't been mentioned. I liked the story, my fiancee' liked the story and you pick the gender and relationship. The controls aren't that hard.

Also, I will agree with PedroSteckecilo on his observations of what girls want in games. I will also add that women are crazy for dress up. Then again, I am pretty crazy for dress up too. *cough* Manly Dress Up!!!

Companies take votes by virtue of what sells.

Prospero:
personally i feel
although alot of girls are into gaming and games in general
the rest of the female population simply arent interested in games
for example when me and my friends go to town at the weekend
we will go in the game shops and look at the newest games
as soon as we mention that our destination is Game or Gamestation
that incites a groan of disapproval from all of the female members of our group
and these girls are the most gamer-ish girls i know!
i think, alot of girls will say they play games
it is not a main activity of theirs
whereas for guys it is
no matter what games are relased
i think that will stay the same

Prospero
I think you should
save the enter key
for a special time
like
when you finish a paragraph.

Anyway, I absolutely hate it when they try to gear games towards either males or females. I find games with big tough manly men saving big chested damsels in distress juvenile and really stupid. At the same time I think games like nintendogs is just plain patronizing. I agree with whoever said they should just concentrate on making games good to attract 'people'.

As a girl gamer, allow me to shed some light on this. Alot of girls don't like video games. They just don't. Hands down. And you're not going to convert them into hardcore gamers if they haven't been around for the ride like the rest of us. Those of us who ARE hardcore gamers have been playing games since they were able to hold a controller like everyone else. So there's no simple solution to turning a girl onto video games. From what I've seen, unless they've been raised on it, other girls aren't going to go for them vidjamagames.

Number 49:
As a girl gamer, allow me to shed some light on this. Alot of girls don't like video games. They just don't. Hands down. And you're not going to convert them into hardcore gamers if they haven't been around for the ride like the rest of us. Those of us who ARE hardcore gamers have been playing games since they were able to hold a controller like everyone else. So there's no simple solution to turning a girl onto video games. From what I've seen, unless they've been raised on it, other girls aren't going to go for them vidjamagames.

In the same regard, a lot of guys hate video games. Believe me, I know some (Mind you, they are hopeless around a computer).
Although, I do like your comment, because you're never going to get a non-gamer to game, unless you have the right arsenal.
It's a bit like getting a Halo fanboy to play Half-Life. A lot say they have, and hated it, but we all know the truth.

Number 49:
As a girl gamer, allow me to shed some light on this. Alot of girls don't like video games. They just don't. Hands down. And you're not going to convert them into hardcore gamers if they haven't been around for the ride like the rest of us. Those of us who ARE hardcore gamers have been playing games since they were able to hold a controller like everyone else. So there's no simple solution to turning a girl onto video games. From what I've seen, unless they've been raised on it, other girls aren't going to go for them vidjamagames.

So what you're saying is that it's the parents issue, because they buy their little girls Barbie dolls instead of 'boy' toys like gaming consoles.

Raised to think video games are for boys, most girls probably won't want anything to do with them.

In much the same way, you don't see a lot of boys playing with Barbie dolls.

LoganAsh:
How do you mean? If you look at most, if not all, of the current games out they seem to be very clearly aimed at men. Take the FPS genre, it's a genre enginered to attract males: Perhaps through macho-male characters, plenty of guns/violence etc. (I'm not saying that is all males enjoy of course, but it does seem to be a majorly male demographic that buy such titles)

? HAHAHAHAHA thats funny

Most women (at least that I know) are in to the tough badboy guys with huge muscles who lactate testosterone and saving everyone from damnation. MEN ARE NOT ATRACTED BY BIG MUSCLES ON OTHER MEN (unless their gay). Men are attracted by the violance and good controll in a game and not macho men (we rather have it be some hot chick with huge tits)