What I like about casual gamers is that they don't turn around to developers and whine about how devs don't cater to their every whim and desire and so devs are abusive and hurty and touching "real gamers" in their bathing suit places. Sheesh.

I like hard core games, myself, but given the company I'd have to keep if I called myself a "hardcore gamer" I think I'd rather adopt the "casual gamer" title.

-- Steve

So true.

Which casual games do not have a challenge with them, is what i am wondering. And i guess what constitutes a challenge? I mean, i play Wii Sports and sure the controls are accessible and rather easy to pick up on, yet the games themselves are really rather tough to get good at let alone master(example of boxing, exception of baseball).

And are the games of Wii Sports actually mini-games? I mean, these games convey the complete spirit of the originals (here again, exception baseball)so does the fact that they aren't stand-alone titles with oodles of extra options make them 'mini-games'? Let's get really specific here, cause i want to understand so that i don't blow up at these little talks anymore.

I know its a long post and I do respect your input Retoru but you missed my point. I dont hate casual gamers. " There's something there for everyone, and personally I think casual titles are helping the gaming industry. They are creating a very large new customer base, and some of those new gamers will branch out into more involved genres of gaming and cause additional units to be sold. Additional units moving means more capital going to the game makers, more capital to the game makers means they can make more games, more games means more fun for us all, casual and hardcore alike." My point is that they will just keep making profitable casual games. Look at the Wii's upcoming titles.

this is the last post im gonna make here and i dont know if anyone is going to see it or not and im not trying to bump this honestly but this is a really great forum. I guess i should have added in the first post that im not against casual gaming and i knew id be branded an elitist snob for it but i wanted to put it out there anyway. Some of you got the point I was trying to make but most of you didnt. Defining casual gaming and gamers was not what the topic was about. I just dont like the influence of casual games (Wii fit, play, music, animal crossing, wii flail, ... ect) on games like oblivion and Bioshock.