Nevermind, i retract my statement.

Eggo:
Men in general lack the natural intuition for social awareness and empathy when compared to women. That, coupled with the traditional target demographic of games, might explain the massive preponderance of games where social dynamics are tacked on as a mere afterthought.

There are inherent disadvantages and advantages that goes for both sexes/genders.

Fun stuff: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4981

Well then I'm sorry I didn't provide an in-depth analysis into the various traits of males and females.

If you didn't notice I posted something largely relevant to the discussion, shall I make a restatement? How about, it's not a question of whether or not games are made for girls, it's their ability to enjoy games in general?

By the way, I'm not angry even though you are Eggo (where's the eggo? all I see is a cat with oversized sunglasses and probably a propensity to use z's instead of s's /tangent). I just think your comment is irrelevant. Especially when we consider the vast social system that has grown from multiplayer games.

Now to look at your link.

EDIT: Bad link

Eggo:
Men in general lack the natural intuition for social awareness and empathy when compared to women. That, coupled with the traditional target demographic of games, might explain the massive preponderance of games where social dynamics are tacked on as a mere afterthought.

There are inherent disadvantages and advantages that goes for both sexes/genders.

Fun stuff: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4981

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Sorry there has been an error. The article you were looking for could not be found -- please try our search.

Quelle suprise. Especially as you tack opinion onto factual research. You might like to look at Focus where there is new proof that male and female brains are actually composed of different weighted organs as well as the natural sizes; which actually invalidate a lot of research on things like pain killers. (given they were all performed on male rats)

Now, given that research, one could say that social dynamics are based on the differences in brains. I prefer the idea of first person research by asking girls what they play. Weird, I know.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=254

Polly Prissy-Pants and the Cupcake Teddy Brigade 2 - The Quest for Perfect Hair.

Indigo_Dingo:
One wonders if the large feminist bias in Heavenly Sword makes it count.

Hahaha.

The_root_of_all_evil:
Quelle suprise

Did you check your address bar?

Quelle surprise indeed.

Eldritch Warlord:
Especially when we consider the vast social system that has grown from multiplayer games.

Err, you're kind of proving my point if you think that the social aspect currently found in multiplayer games is anything other than shallow fodder.

Eggo:

Indigo_Dingo:
One wonders if the large feminist bias in Heavenly Sword makes it count.

Hahaha.

You know, it probably does. Then again, if we are talking about games that target girls, I'm not so sure.

Eggo:

The_root_of_all_evil:
Quelle suprise

Did you check your address bar?

Quelle surprise indeed.

Funnily enough, yes I did. I have been using the computer for some time.

The_root_of_all_evil:

Eggo:

The_root_of_all_evil:
Quelle suprise

Did you check your address bar?

Quelle surprise indeed.

Funnily enough, yes I did. I have been using the computer for some time.

Do most of your working links end with a [/p][/blockquote][p] for that some time you've been using a computer?

I click on the link in my original post and I'm taken to the article. Quelle surprise.

Blayze:

I strongly suggest you try talking to a woman before you try to decide what one is interested in.

Problem is, it's not so much Mantown as it is Idiotville. The myth of "male games" versus "female games" is perpetuated by angry women who feel they're being oppressed, as well as a collection of sycophantic lackeys who spend their time toadying up to them and generally making nuisances of themselves.

What people need to understand is that a game that's marketed to a demographic other than "People who would want to play this game" is a failure, and no amount of hand-wringing, cowering in fear and claiming that Something Must Be Done is going to do a damn thing to change that.

Games for women? As a lot of female gamers are so fond of telling us (Believing we're missing the point, when in fact we just wish they'd shut up about the issue), they play games too. They play the games that are claimed to be "male games". Contrary to popular belief, this is in no way evidence that "female games" must be made.

You can't segregate games like that. Genres? Yes. Systems? Yes. Content? Yes. Genders? No.

And to those people who spend their time complaining about how video games are indicative of male oppression of women and of the (Apparently evil) Patriarchy:

Stop crying and do something about it. You want the world to change? Then change it. Don't waste your time crying about how unfair life is on a message board.

I'll repeat that: Stop. Fucking. Crying.

I agree completely. There's no reason to segregate in games. We can all play and enjoy the same things. Do you think I'm one of those feminists? If it came across that way, it's not what I intended, and I apologize. My post had very little to do with feminism and gaming, and more to do with not assigning a gender to every hobby on the planet.

I'm equally annoyed by the foam-mouthed masses of feminists who are quick to take the verbal machete to anyone with genitals on the outside instead of the inside. They're only perpetuating the problem of distinguishing women from men in games. There doesn't need to be a distinction. Simply because women have taken up the hobby, like you said, doesn't mean that "female games" need to be made.

Besides, there are plenty of "genderless" games, if we want to be pedantic about this. Sim City, Katamari Damacy, Super Smash Bros., and any number of fighting, simulation, racing, and adventure games are geared toward anyone.

The thing that truly chapped my ass in the OP was this: "Spore is quite possibly the annoying and stupid game it is, because the developers wanted to target the casual gamer, basically the girls." That's a horribly stupid thing to say, whether unintentional or purposefully insulting, even on an internet message board. The game is stupid because it's suffering from Peter Molyneux Syndrome (heh, PMS): grand ideas that are almost impossible to implement successfully.

To tobyornottoby, saying that what I posted is to be disregarded because I'm only one person is to avoid looking at the bigger picture. I'm only one person. You are only one person. Every person is only one person, and every person probably has varying interests and varying levels of interest for each interest. (*re-reads, brain explodes*) You get what I mean. Sure, the amount of women playing games is not as great as the amount of men playing them. But it's not an insignificant amount. This doesn't mean that each faction must rise up and demand games be custom-designed.

... Actually, I'm extraordinarily happy with the video game industry right now. Don't ever change, baby!

I think the reason there aren't many female-centered games (excluding such games targeted at men such as DOA volleyball) because most girls don't like video games. It's just a statistical fact that men respond to video games on a much larger scale than women do. The argument could be made that women don't like video games because there aren't games targeted at them, but i find this to be a bit irrational since if women had as much interest in gaming as men they would have jumped on board the video game ship during the era where the distinction of gender was nearly impossible to make, if it was even present at all. (i'm talking atari-era)

Plus, minorities aren't portrayed in games as much as white people are and it never stopped them from enjoying games. Find me a young black man that doesn't play Madden and I'll find you a small exception to my poorly grounded stereotype.

Uh, most males love a great story, especially if the characters are both believable and well thought out. Just like women. Yeah a lot of games have social aspects tacked on, that's common with all games. Even games and movies geared towards women have the social aspects tacked on.

The better games in the world offer qualities that both males and females appreciate. Weather it be good narrative, engaging combat or NPCs that are believable.

The Elder Scrolls community comes to mind when I think of what women like in games. Not because of the game itself, but the custom content that many of the female community members download and create themselves. Most of the female community members prefer the more scantily clad armors and add-ons that are provided by the community. Most of the community members that are against these kinds of add-ons are actually men who prefer a more realistic look to their game.

"I read that the girl's brain was more focused on emotions as opposed to analysis. Why not make games that successfully capture and generate emotions?"

Some of the best games in history are those that do generate strong emotional responses from the user. We can all agree that a game that has a significant emotional impact has an equal chance to appeal to both male and females. Just take the movie "Downfall" for example. For 2 hours after seeing that movie I was almost totally speechless.

There are those games where it isn't about generating a strong emotional response. These games are normally the more action oriented games, which are more meant to generate anxiety and an adrenaline rush. And yes women can have adrenaline rushes too, and yes they do have equal capacity to enjoy such games.

For every quality a game has, if you break it down and think about it both males and females have the capacity to enjoy these things. Even when you look at game qualities that would generally be considered more "Feminine" or "Masculine" you see that again both males and females are found to enjoy or dislike these qualities in a game.

Creating a bunch of games that we deem more feminine to try and get more female gamers into the loop won't attract more females.

Don't label a certain quality in a game with a gender because when it comes down to it, both males and females will have the capacity to either like it or dislike it regardless of what it is. For all the women that like Sex and the City, there are those that dislike it.

Mistah Kurtz:
I think the reason there aren't many female-centered games (excluding such games targeted at men such as DOA volleyball) because most girls don't like video games. It's just a statistical fact that men respond to video games on a much larger scale than women do. The argument could be made that women don't like video games because there aren't games targeted at them, but i find this to be a bit irrational since if women had as much interest in gaming as men they would have jumped on board the video game ship during the era where the distinction of gender was nearly impossible to make, if it was even present at all. (i'm talking atari-era)

Plus, minorities aren't portrayed in games as much as white people are and it never stopped them from enjoying games. Find me a young black man that doesn't play Madden and I'll find you a small exception to my poorly grounded stereotype.

It would be nice if cultural minorities (young African American men don't count since they aren't a minority culturally) were portrayed in games.

Why don't we have any amazing adventure/action games based on Hindu mythology or Thai folklore/martial arts or African trickster stories? It would provide an interesting break from the typical space marine/medieval fantasy paladin action.

That's one of my main reasons for loving Eternal Darkness so damn much.

You said that action games aren't emotional because they elicit anxiety from the player... is anxiety not an emotion? ALL games are supposed to illicit emotion of some kind, otherwise it's a shitty game. The KIND of emotion is more accurate, I'd say. Women are more interested in emotions such as love, caring, etc, 'soft emotions', rather than anger, fear, surprise, etc, 'hard emotions'. Making games based on soft emotions is definitely possible and I think we'll see more of it in the future. Perhaps games where the object is to marry someone, or adventure games where you're faced with ethical issues. Maybe I'm being stereotypical, but the enormous market for romance novels tells me that the strong emotions of women are more easily exploited than they would like to admit.

And by that same logic, harder emotions like anger and hate are easier to exploit in men - thus the huge market for action movies, guns, and Bill O Reily. Traditionally video games have been for boys, so that aspect of the market probably hasn't appeared yet because women aren't interested in games. Maybe they won't ever be because women just aren't wired to enjoy games, or, more likely, in my opinion, there will eventually be an increased interest in gaming by chicks when producers start putting out more material they care about.

Amnestic:

What would the typical female storyline look like? (The movie equivalent would be "Mamma Mia", "Devil wears Prada" and Hugh Grant movies) I'd like you to post some games ideas for the other half of this multi billion dollar pie, please?

Japanese Dating sim, just replace all of the nubile, eager young girls who, though virginal are surprisingly eager to jump on the protagonist, with pretty boy bishis who will be sympathetic to the femmale lead character that you play.

Believe it or not there's shitloads of games like that. There's a game for the DS where you rub skinny bishonen boys with the stylus under the pretence of 'bathing them'.

Edit: Heavenly sword does not have a feminist bias. Making your character female and powerful but then making her dress like an asian themed, raver stripper is not feminism. It is the fucking oposite of feminism.

"I took a break from watching Zero Punctuation and registered on these forums just so I could reply to this steaming turd you just posted.

What in Og's name is a "male storyline?" Is it the storyline of all those games I enjoy already, like Bioshock, Doom, Half-Life, and Condemned? What about Metal Gear Solid? Is that male, too? Gee, I must be housing a gigantic penis rolled up in my women's trousers, because I've enjoyed games of this type for years. Thanks for giving me a heads up for the next visit to the toilet.

Women are alienated from games because of the attitude that you display here. They don't feel welcome in your "male world." I could have been chased off by torch-waving Mantown villagers like you, but I don't think any man should dictate to me what hobbies I should take up.

I strongly suggest you try talking to a woman before you try to decide what one is interested in.I took a break from watching Zero Punctuation and registered on these forums just so I could reply to this steaming turd you just posted.

What in Og's name is a "male storyline?" Is it the storyline of all those games I enjoy already, like Bioshock, Doom, Half-Life, and Condemned? What about Metal Gear Solid? Is that male, too? Gee, I must be housing a gigantic penis rolled up in my women's trousers, because I've enjoyed games of this type for years. Thanks for giving me a heads up for the next visit to the toilet.

Women are alienated from games because of the attitude that you display here. They don't feel welcome in your "male world." I could have been chased off by torch-waving Mantown villagers like you, but I don't think any man should dictate to me what hobbies I should take up.

I strongly suggest you try talking to a woman before you try to decide what one is interested in."

yo vagiant, hes proposing a game targeted at a female audience, were not all sitting in clubhouses with "no girls allowed" on them. The point is statistically men like violence, guns, bang bang, more than females do, because girls once upon a time where raised to be elegant and beautiful, unlike you. In fact i bet your one of those women who complains when i hold the door open, i do and half of the time i get this spew of "i dont need a MAN's help opening the door" crap, get over urself u femenist ass.

however in responce to the thread...i honestly think just making the protaganist female would be enough, maybe adding in a few cute features or characters, and basically its all about curb appeal, once you start playing it, its the same experience anyways, so u would just need to dress it up in "girly" packaging and you could have tons of women playing a carbon copy of Halo 3(but girlier[if i spelt that wrong bite me])

Wow you guys are dumb. My mom watches rambo movies and she's over 40. It all depends on what you like. Guys play the sims too.

Baskinator:
I took a break from watching Zero Punctuation and registered on these forums just so I could reply to this steaming turd you just posted.

What in Og's name is a "male storyline?" Is it the storyline of all those games I enjoy already, like Bioshock, Doom, Half-Life, and Condemned? What about Metal Gear Solid? Is that male, too? Gee, I must be housing a gigantic penis rolled up in my women's trousers, because I've enjoyed games of this type for years. Thanks for giving me a heads up for the next visit to the toilet.

Women are alienated from games because of the attitude that you display here. They don't feel welcome in your "male world." I could have been chased off by torch-waving Mantown villagers like you, but I don't think any man should dictate to me what hobbies I should take up.

I strongly suggest you try talking to a woman before you try to decide what one is interested in.

GIRL! GIRL! LOCK THE FORUM, ACTIVATE THE BANHAMMER, RUN AWAY, COWER IN FEAR AT THE CREATURE WITH NO Y CHROMOSOME!

eggo, the reason we dont have games based on hindu culture and such is simply because unless your somehow close with that religion or culture, it's not likely that you would know about it, but games using god, norse mythology, that became common knowledge becuase once upon a time there where more white dudes than anything in the western world, and we just sorta kept the bias towards christianity(or any permutation of that, catholic, etc.) and norse mythology, rather than changing to accomadate hindu. to support my point, look at how some games are made following asian culture, thats because videogames are major in japan and korea, thats just how it is. Its not racist or anything, thats just life.

monostable:

GIRL! GIRL! LOCK THE FORUM, ACTIVATE THE BANHAMMER, RUN AWAY, COWER IN FEAR AT THE CREATURE WITH NO Y CHROMOSOME!

THERE IS NO ESCAPE. I HAVE COME FOR YOUR INTERNET.

jockslap:
eggo, the reason we dont have games based on hindu culture and such is simply because unless your somehow close with that religion or culture, it's not likely that you would know about it, but games using god, norse mythology, that became common knowledge becuase once upon a time there where more white dudes than anything in the western world, and we just sorta kept the bias towards christianity(or any permutation of that, catholic, etc.) and norse mythology, rather than changing to accomadate hindu. to support my point, look at how some games are made following asian culture, thats because videogames are major in japan and korea, thats just how it is. Its not racist or anything, thats just life.

I'm seeing a lot of stuff about greek mythology these days. There's honestly a shit load of really interesting stuff out there aside from vikings and angels.

meatloaf231:

Eggo:

Indigo_Dingo:
One wonders if the large feminist bias in Heavenly Sword makes it count.

Hahaha.

You know, it probably does. Then again, if we are talking about games that target girls, I'm not so sure.

Well, you could say it targets a specific type of girls - those that actually do care a lot about sexism and discrimination, and would enjoy it.

'games for girls' is what brings about Pink DSes. This is like going 'what do black people like in movies?' Make good movies. Make a good game. Period.

I know you had good intentions for this, and it's okay, but really why would we need to make a game specifically for women? They want what they want, it's not a matter of getting females to start playing games it's that we try to hard to get them to games. Or soemthing like that.

Really, I see no reason why my girlfried (if i had one anyway) wouldn't enjoy a nice round of CoD4 or Resistance if it was approached correctly, and if she doesn't like it then tough noggies, I'll find something that does appeal to her.

teknoarcanist:
'games for girls' is what brings about Pink DSes. This is like going 'what do black people like in movies?' Make good movies. Make a good game. Period.

Here's a point though. People, and maybe not just girls, actually like the pink DS. Nintendo did well there because they marketed something that could appeal to girls without marking it as such. If you look at the box it's exactly the same as other DS packaging just with a different colour. I like it, Nintendo offered a new option without trying to hammmer the point home.

goodman528:
I'm now really shocked that most people out here has no clue about target audience or market targeting. So, here's a little education to all of you out there shouting "girls play exactly the same games as boys":

...

3) Most games has a male target audience, just look at the games out there. The typical audience of Halo for example is a teenage boy who likes sci-fi and/or guns/action. The fact that majority of people who Halo is not Halo's typical target audience does not mean Halo was made for "everyone", it means Halo had something in it that appeals to people outside of its target audience. For the current games industry it makes sense to target males, markets that already exist are always a lot easier to sell to than new markets.

Yer i did graphics at school, i know all about target marketing. Its not that wats the problem, the problem is, most game development teams consist of males, and so they make games for girls based on a stereotype, and any girl that follows that i can guarantee i wont get on with very well. As for that 3rd part, games liekt he sims actually sell more than most games that the hardcores consider to be popular. Just look at the sucess of the wii for instance, and how cheap some of those gameas are to make compared to games like halo. You could probs get more profit by going down that route rather than just targetting males. I admit to taking that snobby hardcore gamer attitude when the casuals started gettin more regular. I was worried they'd stop makin the hardcore games i enjoy in exchange for those types of games, but now ive come to realise, why not welcome others in to enjoy my passion. Spread the joy, int he long run could be beneficial to the industry. i guess they will always make games to target an audience, but the specification of that audience has to be more detailed than just gender, such as including age, background. I guess we've prooved from this convo u cant just generalise people based on gender, needs to be split up even further, cos it works both ways. Many guys are put down just cos they're a lot more sensitive than whats considered normal for a guy, and many girls get irritated cos they;re expected to be a lot more gentle, into shoes, bags, make-up and shopping, which not all of us are.

"I read that the girl's brain was more focused on emotions as opposed to analysis. Why not make games that successfully capture and generate emotions?" Hmm i dunno, i find quite a few fps' are capable of generating pretty strong deep emotional experiences. I find the first person view helps me to get a lot more immersed within the game than most otehr games do.But i dont like those kinda studies and facts on people, cos there are always other issues involved, like ur environment and upbringing, that effect who you are and wat ur good at as a person. Im a programmer and a designer, so im gernerally a more analytical person, but im that way because of my upbringing. I guess im just not like otthr girls :/...

jockslap:
eggo, the reason we dont have games based on hindu culture and such is simply because unless your somehow close with that religion or culture, it's not likely that you would know about it, but games using god, norse mythology, that became common knowledge becuase once upon a time there where more white dudes than anything in the western world, and we just sorta kept the bias towards christianity(or any permutation of that, catholic, etc.) and norse mythology, rather than changing to accomadate hindu. to support my point, look at how some games are made following asian culture, thats because videogames are major in japan and korea, thats just how it is. Its not racist or anything, thats just life.

Well developers don't have a responsibility to make games about hindu culture. Westerners know very little about Hindu culture, we don't identify with it, and we don't care about it. Why then would anyone in the western world make a game about it and who would really play it?
If people want to see more games including hinduism then people who practice hinduism should make those games. It's not really a 'bias', it's just our culture. Nothing wrong with that. Likewise, maybe more women would be interested in games if more women took interest in developing them. Since most game designers are men, they make games for men. That's what we UNDERSTAND! Just like if men tried to make a game for women or if western whites tried to make a game about hinduism, it would most likely come off as forced, flawed, and worst case scenario - insulting to it's target audience.