1) More boys spend more money on games than girls, possibly a lot more. So while some girls do indeed play the same games for the same reasons boys play them, many are alienated by various aspects of current video games.
3) Most games has a male target audience, just look at the games out there. The typical audience of Halo for example is a teenage boy who likes sci-fi and/or guns/action. The fact that majority of people who Halo is not Halo's typical target audience does not mean Halo was made for "everyone", it means Halo had something in it that appeals to people outside of its target audience. For the current games industry it makes sense to target males, markets that already exist are always a lot easier to sell to than new markets.
Any evidence?
What is a typical audience for Halo? If you don't see any girlies in line at Halo launches, are they non-existant? Just because a game is sci-fi and loaded with guns does not mean its male orientated. Women join the army you know.
SuperFriendBFG: Are you kidding me? You're saying a woman would enjoy a game where the whole point was to get married?! I freaking dare you to go up to several woman and ask them if they would enjoy such a game. The answer I mostly got when I asked that question was "Well what else would it be about?" or something similar. They want to know more about how it all happens. What they really want is a good storyline, maybe some good game-play features and some interesting character development. Hell I'm sure some women would enjoy a game where you have to get married, but a bunch of angry mobsters stand between you and your groom.
It's not about "Let's make a game tailored more to females." THERE ARE WOMEN WHO HATE MUSHY MOVIES JUST LIKE THERE ARE MEN WHO HATE GORY ACTION MOVIES!!!
It's just dumb to say "We will make a game tailored for women." instead of saying "We will make a game that has this, this and this in it. And it will appeal to people who like those things."
Again, you think that exceptions invalidate the rule. They don't. Statistics don't have biases. The percentage of women who saw the Sex in the City movie compared to the percentage of those who saw it who were men is....incomparable, really.
Why do you think it's unreasonable to think that women might enjoy games where you persue a relationship? They enjoy books and movies about people falling in love and getting married. It's just something that MANY (not all) women are interested in, and if you want to draw women into gaming you cater to the LARGEST group of women and not the FRINGE group of women who watch action movies and like to shoot guns.
1) More boys spend more money on games than girls, possibly a lot more. So while some girls do indeed play the same games for the same reasons boys play them, many are alienated by various aspects of current video games.
3) Most games has a male target audience, just look at the games out there. The typical audience of Halo for example is a teenage boy who likes sci-fi and/or guns/action. The fact that majority of people who Halo is not Halo's typical target audience does not mean Halo was made for "everyone", it means Halo had something in it that appeals to people outside of its target audience. For the current games industry it makes sense to target males, markets that already exist are always a lot easier to sell to than new markets.
Any evidence?
What is a typical audience for Halo? If you don't see any girlies in line at Halo launches, are they non-existant?
MOST. MOST. MOST. They said MOST of the people playing Halo are men. EXCEPTIONS DO NOT INVALIDATE THE GOD DAMNED MOTHERFUCKING RULE!
1) More boys spend more money on games than girls, possibly a lot more. So while some girls do indeed play the same games for the same reasons boys play them, many are alienated by various aspects of current video games.
3) Most games has a male target audience, just look at the games out there. The typical audience of Halo for example is a teenage boy who likes sci-fi and/or guns/action. The fact that majority of people who Halo is not Halo's typical target audience does not mean Halo was made for "everyone", it means Halo had something in it that appeals to people outside of its target audience. For the current games industry it makes sense to target males, markets that already exist are always a lot easier to sell to than new markets.
Any evidence?
What is a typical audience for Halo? If you don't see any girlies in line at Halo launches, are they non-existant?
MOST. MOST. MOST. They said MOST of the people playing Halo are men. EXCEPTIONS DO NOT INVALIDATE THE GOD DAMNED MOTHERFUCKING RULE!
Most - ok how do you know? There could be an entire army of Halo loving girls out there all over the globe, then most wouldn't come into it would it?
Beowulf DW: I honestly don't think that the good games that have been created over the years could really qualify as appealing to either a male or female audience. And just to clarify, when I say a "good," game, I mean the games that could actually qualify as a high art form (i.e. Golden Sun, possibly?). If a book, movie or game is good, it will appeal to pretty much everyone regardless of gender.
That's not true at all. For example, my AP english class was required to read some books over the summer - most of the girls in the class picked Jane Eyre while almost NONE of the boys did, while almost all of the boys chose The Stranger by Camus while almost NONE of the girls did.
I read Jane Eyre last year and I enjoyed it as much as The Lord of Rings. Just because most of the boys chose a different book doesn't mean that they wouldn't enjoy Jane Eyre if they gave it a chance (and visa versa).
1) More boys spend more money on games than girls, possibly a lot more. So while some girls do indeed play the same games for the same reasons boys play them, many are alienated by various aspects of current video games.
3) Most games has a male target audience, just look at the games out there. The typical audience of Halo for example is a teenage boy who likes sci-fi and/or guns/action. The fact that majority of people who Halo is not Halo's typical target audience does not mean Halo was made for "everyone", it means Halo had something in it that appeals to people outside of its target audience. For the current games industry it makes sense to target males, markets that already exist are always a lot easier to sell to than new markets.
Any evidence?
What is a typical audience for Halo? If you don't see any girlies in line at Halo launches, are they non-existant?
MOST. MOST. MOST. They said MOST of the people playing Halo are men. EXCEPTIONS DO NOT INVALIDATE THE GOD DAMNED MOTHERFUCKING RULE!
Most - ok how do you know? There could be an entire army of Halo loving girls out there all over the globe, then most wouldn't come into it would it?
No, it wouldn't but we both know there isn't so your point is moot. You have no reason to draw that conclusion or even venture that guess - if you heard 60% or more of the people on voice chat to be female, or if you saw a survey that said 60% or more halo players were female, then you could suggest that. But the reality is that there isn't an army of female halo players hiding out in a dungeon in Siberia.
Beowulf DW: I honestly don't think that the good games that have been created over the years could really qualify as appealing to either a male or female audience. And just to clarify, when I say a "good," game, I mean the games that could actually qualify as a high art form (i.e. Golden Sun, possibly?). If a book, movie or game is good, it will appeal to pretty much everyone regardless of gender.
That's not true at all. For example, my AP english class was required to read some books over the summer - most of the girls in the class picked Jane Eyre while almost NONE of the boys did, while almost all of the boys chose The Stranger by Camus while almost NONE of the girls did.
I read Jane Eyre last year and I enjoyed it as much as The Lord of Rings. Just because most of the boys chose a different book doesn't mean that they wouldn't enjoy Jane Eyre if they gave it a chance (and visa versa).
No doubt. That's not what I said. You suggested that the art, if of the same quality, would be equally attractive to both sexes. This is clearly not the case. Although all art has the potential to be enjoyed by both sexes, the reality is that people of different genders are often drawn to certain types of art that is typical of their gender. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the case most of the time.
Actually what got me riled up was someone remotely considering that a game about "Marriage" would even appeal to women. It's the most obvious form of stereotyping.
Also, when you used the book example, you didn't really consider that people do judge books by its cover. But for games it's actually difficult to judge it by its cover. Where someone would skip a game because it looks too "Feminine" or "Masculine" to them, then they read a review and find out that they were incorrect in judging the game by its cover. Take into consideration that when there's so much media following any given game title, a lot of people can make more intelligent decisions on what to buy.
If you have a game that contains a lot of great qualities that just so happen to appeal to women, but you market it as a "Masculine" title, then that's just bad marketing.
When you take the game "Dreamfall: The Longest Journey" and look at it. It may seem a tad bit feminine at first glance. In reality it's one of the best adventure games I've ever played. And I know many others, both men and women who enjoyed it. The game had some pretty gritty stuff, but the people who liked the game didn't even care about the gender of the main character, or the fact that the main character was in love with a man.
To be honest, even considering making a game and marketing it to a specific gender is a bad idea. You're simply better off taking that game and marketing it based off of the different qualities of the game and letting the user decide weather they want to play it or not, regardless if they are male or female. To me this is why this thread as a whole isn't really constructive.
No, it wouldn't but we both know there isn't so your point is moot. You have no reason to draw that conclusion or even venture that guess - if you heard 60% or more of the people on voice chat to be female, or if you saw a survey that said 60% or more halo players were female, then you could suggest that. But the reality is that there isn't an army of female halo players hiding out in a dungeon in Siberia.
My point was that the original poster provided no economic data to support the fact that more males spend more than females on games.
Beowulf DW: I honestly don't think that the good games that have been created over the years could really qualify as appealing to either a male or female audience. And just to clarify, when I say a "good," game, I mean the games that could actually qualify as a high art form (i.e. Golden Sun, possibly?). If a book, movie or game is good, it will appeal to pretty much everyone regardless of gender.
That's not true at all. For example, my AP english class was required to read some books over the summer - most of the girls in the class picked Jane Eyre while almost NONE of the boys did, while almost all of the boys chose The Stranger by Camus while almost NONE of the girls did.
I read Jane Eyre last year and I enjoyed it as much as The Lord of Rings. Just because most of the boys chose a different book doesn't mean that they wouldn't enjoy Jane Eyre if they gave it a chance (and visa versa).
No doubt. That's not what I said. You suggested that the art, if of the same quality, would be equally attractive to both sexes. This is clearly not the case. Although all art has the potential to be enjoyed by both sexes, the reality is that people of different genders are often drawn to certain types of art that is typical of their gender. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the case most of the time.
Alright, I'm certainly at fault here. I should have worded my first post a bit differently. I mentioned a game's appeal. What I meant was that as long as a game is fun to play, anyone would like it. However, because of target audiences, games (or any form of media) will be advertised to one demographic over another. But a book (or game) can't be judged by its cover, and niether should it be judged by its target audience.
To tobyornottoby, saying that what I posted is to be disregarded because I'm only one person is to avoid looking at the bigger picture. I'm only one person. You are only one person. Every person is only one person, and every person probably has varying interests and varying levels of interest for each interest. (*re-reads, brain explodes*) You get what I mean. Sure, the amount of women playing games is not as great as the amount of men playing them. But it's not an insignificant amount. This doesn't mean that each faction must rise up and demand games be custom-designed.
I think the industry does think it's an insignificant amount ;)
Uh, most males love a great story, especially if the characters are both believable and well thought out. Just like women.
There's a huuuuuge difference between a game that's designed around the story and a story that's greatly attached to a game
Wow you guys are dumb. My mom watches rambo movies and she's over 40. It all depends on what you like. Guys play the sims too.
Wow you can't read at all. TARGET AUDIENCE
A male storyline is a storyline which includes elements that appeal to men - action, anxiety, violence, etc. Because you enjoy those storylines doesn't mean you aren't a woman, it simply means that you're part of the minority of women that do take interest in those things. Be honest - if you took a poll on who liked action movies, do you think that the results would be 50/50 man/woman? Don't kid yourself, and don't act like an exception invalidates a rule.
Yes! This!
I don't think I ever said it would be a 50/50 split between men and women for anything, though. All I'm saying is games are not classified by gender and can be enjoyed by anyone. They're classified by genre. There's no point to making games for specifically for girls. Most of the games thrown out as being created for girls are games that anyone can play.
Of course there's a point. Those action movies and action games are specifically made for their target audience; boys. They are classified by gender
MOST. MOST. MOST. They said MOST of the people playing Halo are men. EXCEPTIONS DO NOT INVALIDATE THE GOD DAMNED MOTHERFUCKING RULE!
SECOND THIS!
Alright, I'm certainly at fault here. I should have worded my first post a bit differently. I mentioned a game's appeal. What I meant was that as long as a game is fun to play, anyone would like it.
No. Because not everyone has the same taste of fun, even regardless of gender this time.
Beowulf DW: I honestly don't think that the good games that have been created over the years could really qualify as appealing to either a male or female audience. And just to clarify, when I say a "good," game, I mean the games that could actually qualify as a high art form (i.e. Golden Sun, possibly?). If a book, movie or game is good, it will appeal to pretty much everyone regardless of gender.
That's not true at all. For example, my AP english class was required to read some books over the summer - most of the girls in the class picked Jane Eyre while almost NONE of the boys did, while almost all of the boys chose The Stranger by Camus while almost NONE of the girls did.
I read Jane Eyre last year and I enjoyed it as much as The Lord of Rings. Just because most of the boys chose a different book doesn't mean that they wouldn't enjoy Jane Eyre if they gave it a chance (and visa versa).
No doubt. That's not what I said. You suggested that the art, if of the same quality, would be equally attractive to both sexes. This is clearly not the case. Although all art has the potential to be enjoyed by both sexes, the reality is that people of different genders are often drawn to certain types of art that is typical of their gender. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the case most of the time.
Alright, I'm certainly at fault here. I should have worded my first post a bit differently. I mentioned a game's appeal. What I meant was that as long as a game is fun to play, anyone would like it. However, because of target audiences, games (or any form of media) will be advertised to one demographic over another. But a book (or game) can't be judged by its cover, and niether should it be judged by its target audience.
We aren't talking about judging a book, we're talking about making assessments on whether or not we think we would enjoy the book based on the information we know about it. If we know that a book like the Stranger, which revolves around the shooting of a man on the beach and the killer's trial, we know that more men will want to read it. If we know that Jane Eyre is about whatever Jane Eyre is about (I never read it - I'm assuming the plot is more 'feminine', so to speak) then we know that more women will be interested in that book. Just because art is equally good doesn't mean it will be equally enjoyed. I don't deny the singing talents of Celine Dion but I can't fucking stand her, where most of her audience is female, and I'm sure most females don't deny Pantera's ability to rock out with their collective cock out, but most women aren't interested in hearing the song "Walk" over and over again.
Not just that, but marketing an action game as a "man game" isn't as good as marketing that same game as a gripping action title with a lot of tense situations and an intriguing storyline.
If you really want to go deep into the "man game" games look at Quake III. It's marketed as a competitive Death Match title.
SuperFriendBFG: Actually what got me riled up was someone remotely considering that a game about "Marriage" would even appeal to women. It's the most obvious form of stereotyping.
And what, praytell, is wrong with making the assumption that women would like a game about marriage or love? You do realize that stereotypes are the cornerstone of marketing, and that stereotypes are based on the observed patterns of specific groups and we use them to make educated guesses about the interests and desires of those particular groups?
When you take the game "Dreamfall: The Longest Journey" and look at it. It may seem a tad bit feminine at first glance. In reality it's one of the best adventure games I've ever played.
YOu've just proven my point. Subconsciously you've acknowledged that you are initially turned off by things that seem 'feminine' by saying that it seems feminine, 'but in reality it's good'. You've contrasted 'feminine' with 'good', implying that feminine is bad. This is normal as you are a man (I assume) and are thus attracted to more masculine forms of art.
Beowulf DW: I honestly don't think that the good games that have been created over the years could really qualify as appealing to either a male or female audience. And just to clarify, when I say a "good," game, I mean the games that could actually qualify as a high art form (i.e. Golden Sun, possibly?). If a book, movie or game is good, it will appeal to pretty much everyone regardless of gender.
That's not true at all. For example, my AP english class was required to read some books over the summer - most of the girls in the class picked Jane Eyre while almost NONE of the boys did, while almost all of the boys chose The Stranger by Camus while almost NONE of the girls did.
I read Jane Eyre last year and I enjoyed it as much as The Lord of Rings. Just because most of the boys chose a different book doesn't mean that they wouldn't enjoy Jane Eyre if they gave it a chance (and visa versa).
No doubt. That's not what I said. You suggested that the art, if of the same quality, would be equally attractive to both sexes. This is clearly not the case. Although all art has the potential to be enjoyed by both sexes, the reality is that people of different genders are often drawn to certain types of art that is typical of their gender. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the case most of the time.
Alright, I'm certainly at fault here. I should have worded my first post a bit differently. I mentioned a game's appeal. What I meant was that as long as a game is fun to play, anyone would like it. However, because of target audiences, games (or any form of media) will be advertised to one demographic over another. But a book (or game) can't be judged by its cover, and niether should it be judged by its target audience.
We aren't talking about judging a book, we're talking about making assessments on whether or not we think we would enjoy the book based on the information we know about it. If we know that a book like the Stranger, which revolves around the shooting of a man on the beach and the killer's trial, we know that more men will want to read it. If we know that Jane Eyre is about whatever Jane Eyre is about (I never read it - I'm assuming the plot is more 'feminine', so to speak) then we know that more women will be interested in that book. Just because art is equally good doesn't mean it will be equally enjoyed. I don't deny the singing talents of Celine Dion but I can't fucking stand her, where most of her audience is female, and I'm sure most females don't deny Pantera's ability to rock out with their collective cock out, but most women aren't interested in hearing the song "Walk" over and over again.
That book you mentioned, The Stranger, sounds like something my mom would be into. She loves murder mysteries. She can't get enough of C.S.I.
SuperFriendBFG: Not just that, but marketing an action game as a "man game" isn't as good as marketing that same game as a gripping action title with a lot of tense situations and an intriguing storyline.
If you really want to go deep into the "man game" games look at Quake III. It's marketed as a competitive Death Match title.
I'm pretty sure games are already marketed that way. Can you find me a game made in the last 2 decades that markets itself as a 'MAN'S game?' (Without being tongue-in-cheek, like Duke Nukem) The thing is that MEN ARE ATTRACTED to things like 'gripping action' and 'tense situations', thus they are purchased and enjoyed mostly by men and thus they earn the title of boy games.
That book you mentioned, The Stranger, sounds like something my mom would be into. She loves murder mysteries. She can't get enough of C.S.I.
She'd probably be disappointed - there's no mystery about the murder. The story simply revolves around the guy who did it and his indifference towards his own actions. It's a book about morals and human emotions (and the lack thereof) and existentialism and all sorts of things that I have only the faintest of grasps on. Not that I could fully understand The Stranger as a 12th grader, but it's not really the sort of book you're thinking. Think Kafka.
(As a side note, this is another example of art being attractive to certain types of people based on their interests without fully understanding the content of the art - as I said, people are DRAWN to certain types of art, largely based on their surface features.)
Of course there's a point. Those action movies and action games are specifically made for their target audience; boys. They are classified by gender
But doesn't that boil down to marketing strategy and not content of the game? I agree completely that games are marketed toward males, but the content of the game is another thing entirely. I don't think developers start a project with only one group of people in mind---in fact, most of them are probably hoping the game is good enough to transcend a single group. Wouldn't that be a goal for a developer? Whereas the marketing department is only interested in making money from whatever demographic is most likely to respond to their advertising. I don't think that changes the fact that the content can be enjoyed by everyone.
Alright, I'm certainly at fault here. I should have worded my first post a bit differently. I mentioned a game's appeal. What I meant was that as long as a game is fun to play, anyone would like it.
No. Because not everyone has the same taste of fun, even regardless of gender this time.
Did I say, "everyone,"? Did I? Nope. I said, "anyone." Don't know about you, but where I'm from "anyone" implies a large portion of the populous, but not the entire populous. I'm well aware that it's impossible to please everyone. Posting on the Escapist has certainly taught me that much.
Of course there's a point. Those action movies and action games are specifically made for their target audience; boys. They are classified by gender
But doesn't that boil down to marketing strategy and not content of the game? I agree completely that games are marketed toward males, but the content of the game is another thing entirely. I don't think developers start a project with only one group of people in mind---in fact, most of them are probably hoping the game is good enough to transcend a single group. Wouldn't that be a goal for a developer? Whereas the marketing department is only interested in making money from whatever demographic is most likely to respond to their advertising. I don't think that changes the fact that the content can be enjoyed by everyone.
Yes that would be awesome. Unfortunately, 'marketing department' is the one with the cash, so it can also decide over the content. Next to that, as said before, one of the first things you have to work out with a new concept, is the target audience, which can't be "people who will like this game" or "everyone"
That book you mentioned, The Stranger, sounds like something my mom would be into. She loves murder mysteries. She can't get enough of C.S.I.
She'd probably be disappointed - there's no mystery about the murder. The story simply revolves around the guy who did it and his indifference towards his own actions. It's a book about morals and human emotions (and the lack thereof) and existentialism and all sorts of things that I have only the faintest of grasps on. Not that I could fully understand The Stranger as a 12th grader, but it's not really the sort of book you're thinking. Think Kafka.
(As a side note, this is another example of art being attractive to certain types of people based on their interests without fully understanding the content of the art - as I said, people are DRAWN to certain types of art, largely based on their surface features.)
Oh...Well in that case, she'd still like it (so would I actually).
I don't think people should make games specifically girls because they will fail at it. I don't think any of the game developers are in touch with females of any age so they will all inevitably turn out to be like Cooking Mama, which is a joke.
However if we must discuss it, I would suggest creating more simulation games like the Sims. Most of us like that sort of thing. I also enjoy investigative games such as Phoenix Wright, so I'd like to see more of that.
Dreamfall 2, although this is probably me just wanting to know what the ending to Dreamfall meant.