Villains who had a point

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT
 

Can you think of any villains who either;

- had a point
- were justified in some way
- you could empathize with

I'm not considering villains who were the protagonist, like Megamind, Gru (Despicable Me), or Maleficent (the live-action one).

They can be from video games, movies, anime, TV, books, anything. The only one I can think of currently is Nox from Wakfu;

There is a purpose to this (if people are curious then I can share why) :)

Maybe they fixed it later, but atleast in the first two episodes of Inhumans, I was almost completely rooting for Ramsey Bolton. (I dont remember his character's name).

A bit ruthless in his methods, but the royal family were basically enslaving much of the population and didnt seem to care.

Auron225:
Can you think of any villains who either;

The only one I can think of currently is Nox from Wakfu;

Good to know someone else on here has watched that series. His origin was tragic especially if you had watched his OVA.

OT-I suppose out of the Marvel films-

Ulton
Admit it, it will be hard to explained to a sentient AI the redeeming quality of mankind given to our histories.

Loki
Sure I don't like him at the start but by the time I watched Ragnarok, I get he just wanted some recognitions eventhought his method were trollish.

Vulture
He's pretty much a middle class working man before he turn the life of crime.

image

Richmond Valentine
He is extremely concerned with global warming, and after several failed environmental projects, comes to the conclusion that mankind is both the cause and the problem. Valentine begins to distribute free SIM cards offering unlimited phone and internet coverage worldwide, planning to use them to transmit a neurological wave that triggers aggression and switches off inhibitors in the brain, which will result in mass killing worldwide and thus reduce the global population.

The Machine in A Machine For Pigs. Ultimately what it wanted to do was prevent the deaths of Mandus' sons, World War 1, World War 2, and basically everything after 1945.
I mean just look at the list of events the Machine was trying to prevent from happening:
The First and Second World Wars, bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Cambodian Genocide, the death of Mandus' sons (two brothers who would fall in the war), the Russian Revolution and the Stalinist regime in Russia, the Ukraine Famine ("starved the masses into faith"), the Holocaust, etc...

That's not an inherently evil goal! Just so happens the Machine thought the best way to achieve this was through human bacon, which was just dumb. Regular bacon is way cheaper and easier to get.

In Shakugan No Shana the villains are soul sucking demons who will blink out of existence if they don't do so. Their goal in the final season is creating a new universe that can accomodate their existence without the soul sucking part, which might kill all existence.

The Imperium (though calling the villains depends on the media) in 40k, a lot of what they do is justified because how dangerous Chaos is and how much of giant fuckups were created by stuff like AI and hundreds of thousands of legions as well as bureaucracy.

My main one is the entire Templar order from the Assassin's Creed series.

They were painted as villains and irredeemably so basically up until Rogue which finally gave you a proper glimpse of what the Templar Order is like from the inside and it actually sort of makes a lot of sense. They only really appear as the villains because the Assassins paint them as monsters and that's who we, the player, see the events through the eyes of. It's an ideological battle where until Rogue we only saw one side of the ideology presented in any way positively.

When exposed to seeing the other side the argument could very easily be made that, somewhat brutal or dickish methods aside, the Templar ideology is a logical one. What is painted by the Assassins as a totalitarian mindset bent on total domination of those they view as lesser than themselves is actually just the rather obvious idea that for human society to reach it's full potential it needs strong guiding hands with true vision to help it along as left their own devices most people will contently sit exactly where they are forever. They need someone to show them a better path for themselves, even if they may not want to see it, because without it they will continue to do nothing but invent reasons to spend time destroying one another over petty quarrels and achieving nothing of any value.

And is that really so terrible? Considering that the Assassins' pro-freedom manifesto is basically lawless anarchy covered by vague sentiment of tolerance and understanding, and that they murder with reckless abandon to achieve it, I'd say the Templar side of the debate sounds just as credible if you look at things objectively.

Neither side is perfect, neither side is truly evil. But one is painted as the villains when you could easily see the argument from their side and agree with it. That's why I've always chosen to side with the Templars at the end of Rogue and why it's among my favourite games in the series.

The bear in the Revenant. I mean, who wouldn't want to beat the shit out of Leonardo Di Caprio. Just look at the guy. He has a face that says "punch me"...

The other boy from the Karate Kid (ditto with the remade version), to bring out one of the old classics.

Pretty much any of the poor people that get beaten up by Batman. Seriously, fuck Batman.

The Helghast in the Killzone series.

They are people all exiled from Vekta, forcefully relocated to a planet with harsh conditions: Helghan.
I can't blame them for adapting, and wanting to take over Vekta.
And even less so after:

It goes alot more into detail in the games. The ISA may seem to be depicte as the good guys, but they are definetly at fault.

Catnip1024:
The bear in the Revenant. I mean, who wouldn't want to beat the shit out of Leonardo Di Caprio. Just look at the guy. He has a face that says "punch me"...

The other boy from the Karate Kid (ditto with the remade version), to bring out one of the old classics.

Pretty much any of the poor people that get beaten up by Batman. Seriously, fuck Batman.

Magneto, obviously. He does have a point that mutants are being oppressed by the jerkass humans... though he tends to go a bit too far...

I thought Michael Keaton's portrayal of the Vulture was pretty compelling. He's a blue collar guy who got pushed aside and while blaming Tony Stark isn't necessarily the wisest move, he wasn't wrong that the little guys in the MCU sometimes get a raw deal.

CrazyGirl17:
Magneto, obviously. He does have a point that mutants are being oppressed by the jerkass humans... though he tends to go a bit too far...

Except the Jerkass humans are honestly pretty right. We already put people on lists who buy guns that can be modified from semi-automatic to full-automatic as it is. It's not that much different than some girl that can literally suck the life out of people with a touch or more than a few guys that have been around for HUNDREDS of years because they can't be killed and have been involved in various historical events because of it.

Sentinels are a natural progression in that way. You get a better cage to house a more dangerous individual. The only reason they're down and out villains are because of how far the government and various private endeavors go to get rid of, honestly, some of the most dangerous people on the planet, even if they aren't trying to be so intentionally. Like, there are many telepath stories in X-Men of kids growing up in essentially a fantasy world of lollypops and ice cream while the people around them are living a waking nightmare. Kilgrave in Jones touched on this before it decided to turn back into the Jessica "I only care about my own thoughts, ideas, fears, and farts" Jones show. Hell, Daken, however poorly or not you feel he's written, is one of the most dangerous street-level mutants in the universe.

Humans have very good reasons to fear Mutants in the Marvel universe, very similarly as you would seeing a guy seriously stockpile guns, building razor-wire-topped fences, and dumping truckloads of canned goods in the shed under the house.

The Elite in Superman vs The Elite.

Zemo in Civil War

Senator Armstrong. Those who have played the game already know about the speech.

But that might makes right attitude wouldn't help America. In fact, it would make things worse for America in the long run. Not to mention that it's too impractical.

In Legend of Korra Amon, Unilock, Zaheer, and Kuvira all had points but they took things way too far. In order: equality, spiritual connection, freedom, and unity.

The hyenas in The Lion King. At the end of the day all they wanted was some food. Scary thing is when you think about it the lions were hoarding all the food from other predators. As much as Scar was an opportunistic scumbag, the hyenas did get a raw deal.

Shinobu Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho. The part about opening the portals to demon and human world, not so much the whole kill all of Humanity.

What villain doesn't have a point?

Even Hans Gruber has a point in that he wants a shitton of money. I mean, I can understand wanting to be rich. I wouldn't go around killing people to do it, but I can understand it.

The few villains I can think of that don't have a point are Biff from Back to the Future and the Emperor from Star Wars. Their main goal is simply to be big assholes.

Any good villain should have this kind of trait, where you can emphasize with why their position sounds like a good idea.

I've been extremely conflicted over Griffith from Berserk.

Griffith is a good villain.

The big bad from Watchmen, definitely.

But also these guys, as we've never been able to see them before or since:

Casual Shinji:
What villain doesn't have a point?

Even Hans Gruber has a point in that he wants a shitton of money. I mean, I can understand wanting to be rich. I wouldn't go around killing people to do it, but I can understand it.

The few villains I can think of that don't have a point are Biff from Back to the Future and the Emperor from Star Wars. Their main goal is simply to be big assholes.

Here is my list of villains that don't have a point or think they have a point:

Hao Asakura. No matter which version you look at he's nothing more than a spoiled brat who wants the world for himself. He preaches about protecting Nature, but in the end of the day, he's just another asshole so who wants petty revenge and is willing to sacrifice others and even his own followers to get what he wants. The anime at least calls out on his bulllshit, unlike the manga.

Thomas Gabriel (Die Hard 4). So he did kind of have a point with America's security, but similar to the above he was just another egotistical jackass who thought he deserved more just because bad shit happened to him.

All the villains from the Lethal Weapon movies. You can maybe make a case for the first movie and the fourth movie, but that's about it.

The Weyland-Yutani Corporation in general. While we are at it, I'll throw in the Umbrella Corporation and Mobius (Evil Within) too.

All of the villains from Devil May Cry series. Well Vergil's motive is understandable, but it is not something you're supposed to agree with.

Bison, Geese Howard, Wolfgang Krauser, and Rugal.

Skullmageddon

Ragyo and Nui Harime

I know there is more, but that is why I can think of at the top of my head.

Casual Shinji:
What villain doesn't have a point?

A good villain? Like, to have a truly terrifying villain you really don't want to be able to identify with them, or understand them, or relate with them.
A guy who just goes around stealing money, because he wants money, when you also want money, isn't really a villain. Even if he kills people, he's just a dick. Just willing to push a little more.

A truly great villain would be like a Lovecraftian horror or a hell daemon. Something that skins babies alive, and eats people whole, and enslaves entire worlds, boiling entire races alive at once, blasts planets from the skies. Something evil you couldn't possibly comprehend, let alone go 'Well to be fair, those babies were crying too much'

Like a 40k Bloodthirster will always make a better villain than any Marvel anti-hero or Anime kinda emo prince, because what a Bloodthirster does is truly villainous, not just the wrong thing does for the right reasons or the right thing done wrongly.

Silentpony:

Casual Shinji:
What villain doesn't have a point?

A good villain? Like, to have a truly terrifying villain you really don't want to be able to identify with them, or understand them, or relate with them.
A guy who just goes around stealing money, because he wants money, when you also want money, isn't really a villain. Even if he kills people, he's just a dick. Just willing to push a little more.

A truly great villain would be like a Lovecraftian horror or a hell daemon. Something that skins babies alive, and eats people whole, and enslaves entire worlds, boiling entire races alive at once, blasts planets from the skies. Something evil you couldn't possibly comprehend, let alone go 'Well to be fair, those babies were crying too much'

Like a 40k Bloodthirster will always make a better villain than any Marvel anti-hero or Anime kinda emo prince, because what a Bloodthirster does is truly villainous, not just the wrong thing does for the right reasons or the right thing done wrongly.

So... You're saying the Choas Gods are less villainous than their subordinates? Maybe. Darth Vader was never scary in the original trilogy. And I saw that as a kid. He used the usual bullying tactics in Rogue One and wasn't scary. It wasn't til those final moments when he showed what he was capable of, well it wasn't scary per Se, but I'd be running from him.

I don't know if that really falls into either category. More like do rather than say.

OP: Caeser from NV. Pity that his tribe was nothing like what he was talking about. It's like they created Caeser for a different game but realised that they had the same name and could just slap him in. Really breaks the immersion and understanding and his view

In the 'legacy' Star Wars cannon it turns out The Emperor was, in his own Sith way, A GOOD GUY!

Seriously, he FORESAW the coming of the Yuuzhan Vong and that's one of the reasons why he founded The Empire and even The Death Star.

Because he, in his own fucked up way, wanted to SAVE the galaxy by uniting it.

:3

Hela from the most recent Thor movie actually had a pretty good point.

Tanis:
In the 'legacy' Star Wars cannon it turns out The Emperor was, in his own Sith way, A GOOD GUY!

Seriously, he FORESAW the coming of the Yuuzhan Vong and that's one of the reasons why he founded The Empire and even The Death Star.

Because he, in his own fucked up way, wanted to SAVE the galaxy by uniting it.

:3

This reminds me of a rant by an Imperial officer after the invasion had been stopped, where he looked at the facts and stated that the Rebellion was objectively the worst thing that ever happened to the galaxy as the vast Imperial Fleet and its two Death Stars would have put a quick end to the invasion, and failing that a galaxy united under Thrawn would have outmanoeuvred them. He went at length to explain the rational reason behind the Empire's actions and why the victories the New Republic still celebrated where in fact horrible defeats for the galaxy at large and that the reason the New Republic still refused to acknowledge these facts was because to do so would mean to admit that Thrawn and the Emperor where right, and their cause had been a waste, and that their rebellion, built on a foundation of lies and incomplete information, was all a waste.

God I wish I could remember which book that was from.

Tanis:
In the 'legacy' Star Wars cannon it turns out The Emperor was, in his own Sith way, A GOOD GUY!

Seriously, he FORESAW the coming of the Yuuzhan Vong and that's one of the reasons why he founded The Empire and even The Death Star.

Because he, in his own fucked up way, wanted to SAVE the galaxy by uniting it.

:3

A looming threat he at no stage decided to reveal to his subjects, or even his military high command, was coming? I mean that sounds like a great fuckin' draw card to have at your expenses hearings when someone asks "Why the fuck are we building a giant death laser and not like 500 more of those Star Destroyers? And following that, why would need either?".

Honestly the Yuuzhan Vong always reeked of trying to justify the Empire in the post-script.

Tell you who I did think had points though: Barriss Offee and the Confederacy of Independent Systems in Clone Wars. The Jedi Order was going full retard with the war and it flew in the face of the values Barriss had been taught to follow - she just screwed the pooch by committing terrorism/sabotage and triple homicide and attempting to frame her best friend for it.

Also the CIS saw the Republic Senate, with immense justification, as listless and corrupt and as far as I am concerned were well within their rights to split off and form their own government. What I don't remember is what actually kicked the hostilities off; if the systems that became the CIS just up and said "Fuck this noise, we out" but nothing else then the Republic likewise went full retard.

Of course the issue there is that with the Emperor playing both sides for fucking chumps as easily as he did, I won't say that the rise of the Empire wasn't deserved to a degree.

Gordon_4:

Tanis:
In the 'legacy' Star Wars cannon it turns out The Emperor was, in his own Sith way, A GOOD GUY!

Seriously, he FORESAW the coming of the Yuuzhan Vong and that's one of the reasons why he founded The Empire and even The Death Star.

Because he, in his own fucked up way, wanted to SAVE the galaxy by uniting it.

:3

A looming threat he at no stage decided to reveal to his subjects, or even his military high command, was coming? I mean that sounds like a great fuckin' draw card to have at your expenses hearings when someone asks "Why the fuck are we building a giant death laser and not like 500 more of those Star Destroyers? And following that, why would need either?".

Honestly the Yuuzhan Vong always reeked of trying to justify the Empire in the post-script.

The Yuuzhan Vong reeked of a lot of things. It was the point I just kind of tuned out entirely on the EU, which had been kind of on the decline for a while (I really didn't like anything starting with the terrible Black Fleet Crisis.)

As far as villains who had a point... really any of the good ones. I generally refer to "evil for the sake of being evil" as "stupid evil." Without a compelling reason to do awful things a bad guy is just... boring... flat... one dimensional. Written into a story for the convenience of having someone to root against and a punchable thing the protagonist can beat at the end.

trunkage:
OP: Caeser from NV. Pity that his tribe was nothing like what he was talking about. It's like they created Caeser for a different game but realised that they had the same name and could just slap him in. Really breaks the immersion and understanding and his view

I dunno, Caesar always came across to me as someone who thought he had a point but was actually just a narcissistic fascist trying to find meaning in his desire for power, right down to basing his "empire" on his weird nerd fantasies about ancient Rome (which are themselves deeply flawed). This also explains why he has an autodoc to treat his cancer despite teaching his followers that high technology is bad. Sacrifice is important, but only when it's someone else's sacrifice.

By contrast, look at the Master, whose beliefs are actually quite similar to Ceasar's philosophy. Both believe (or claim to believe) that humanity must undergo a fundamental change in order to survive the post-nuclear wasteland. Both believe that the divisions which lead humanity to war must be eradicated by creating a new human (or post-human) culture. Both make heavy use of pseudo-fascist rhetoric to justify themselves. However, the master actually believes he can do it. He believes it so intently that when he is persuaded it is impossible he is no longer able to live with the things he has done to achieve it and kills himself.

Hard to call a villain that has no point a 'villain'. Not just mad or beastial. I'm imagining Halaster, creator of Undermountain as an example of that.

But ... hrm. I'm going to say ... Roy Batty, original Blade Runner.

Also Malar from Forgotten Realms setting. Real good points given over three quarters of the rulers of anywhere on Toril do not deserve their positions.

Have always had a soft spot for Hannibal Lecter. Not only are humans quite delicious, he is a fantastic cook and great for conversation! Whether that is an acceptable 'point' though...

The big bad in The Kingsman was only looking to save the planet from pesky homosapiens. With glorious colourful explosions too! If you're going to be a genocidal maniac, at least have the decency and self-respect to do it in fabulous style.

Kwak:
image

Richmond Valentine
He is extremely concerned with global warming, and after several failed environmental projects, comes to the conclusion that mankind is both the cause and the problem. Valentine begins to distribute free SIM cards offering unlimited phone and internet coverage worldwide, planning to use them to transmit a neurological wave that triggers aggression and switches off inhibitors in the brain, which will result in mass killing worldwide and thus reduce the global population.

Kwak kwakked me to it.

He's not a straight up villain so much as an antagonist but Walter Peck from Ghostbusters gets a whole lot of crap for what amounts to doing his job.

Bear in mind the Ghostbusters were building and using unlicensed particle accelerators and some kind of energy storage system with an explosive yield similar to a purpose made bomb, none of that stuff was certified safe, the ghost containment was built in the middle of a city for literally no reason beyond laziness and budget. Peck is one of the few people in the film who's behaving reasonably for most of it and by the end of the film when he goes a bit nuts it's after several attempts to be reasonable being rebuffed by Venkman.

BeetleManiac:
I thought Michael Keaton's portrayal of the Vulture was pretty compelling. He's a blue collar guy who got pushed aside and while blaming Tony Stark isn't necessarily the wisest move, he wasn't wrong that the little guys in the MCU sometimes get a raw deal.

The weirdest bit of that whole setup is that Stark easily has enough money to pay the company off but instead decides apparently to bankrupt them. If he'd just honoured their contract payment with the city there wouldn't have been a problem.

Jon Irons/Kevin Spacey made a pretty good point in COD: Advanced Warfare that American Foreign Policy is kind of shit and doesn't seem to solve anything. Whether or not his solution would have worked better, let alone whether they justified the shit he was trying to do, is debatable.

EscapistAccount:
He's not a straight up villain so much as an antagonist but Walter Peck from Ghostbusters gets a whole lot of crap for what amounts to doing his job.

Bear in mind the Ghostbusters were building and using unlicensed particle accelerators and some kind of energy storage system with an explosive yield similar to a purpose made bomb, none of that stuff was certified safe, the ghost containment was built in the middle of a city for literally no reason beyond laziness and budget. Peck is one of the few people in the film who's behaving reasonably for most of it and by the end of the film when he goes a bit nuts it's after several attempts to be reasonable being rebuffed by Venkman.

Totally agree. Peck gets way more shit then he deserves. The only real thing he does wrong is insist the City Engineer shut it off immediatly despite not knowing if it's safe to do so.

If it had been an unlicensed nuclear reactor, he would have been right to shut it down, but there's a proper way to do it without causing more problems.

Redryhno:

CrazyGirl17:
Magneto, obviously. He does have a point that mutants are being oppressed by the jerkass humans... though he tends to go a bit too far...

Except the Jerkass humans are honestly pretty right. We already put people on lists who buy guns that can be modified from semi-automatic to full-automatic as it is. It's not that much different than some girl that can literally suck the life out of people with a touch or more than a few guys that have been around for HUNDREDS of years because they can't be killed and have been involved in various historical events because of it.

Sentinels are a natural progression in that way. You get a better cage to house a more dangerous individual. The only reason they're down and out villains are because of how far the government and various private endeavors go to get rid of, honestly, some of the most dangerous people on the planet, even if they aren't trying to be so intentionally. Like, there are many telepath stories in X-Men of kids growing up in essentially a fantasy world of lollypops and ice cream while the people around them are living a waking nightmare. Kilgrave in Jones touched on this before it decided to turn back into the Jessica "I only care about my own thoughts, ideas, fears, and farts" Jones show. Hell, Daken, however poorly or not you feel he's written, is one of the most dangerous street-level mutants in the universe.

Humans have very good reasons to fear Mutants in the Marvel universe, very similarly as you would seeing a guy seriously stockpile guns, building razor-wire-topped fences, and dumping truckloads of canned goods in the shed under the house.

Fair enough, I can see your point. But when it involves going after innocent mutants who want to live their lives, then I think Magneto has a point.

It's kind of a no-win scenario, to be honest. Bad mutants only reinforce human's fears of them so they oppress the mutants so mutants like Magneto try to strike back and it all just keeps going in circles.

Doesn't help that the majority of civilians in the Marvel universe seem to made up of assholes...

Kwak:
image

Richmond Valentine
He is extremely concerned with global warming, and after several failed environmental projects, comes to the conclusion that mankind is both the cause and the problem. Valentine begins to distribute free SIM cards offering unlimited phone and internet coverage worldwide, planning to use them to transmit a neurological wave that triggers aggression and switches off inhibitors in the brain, which will result in mass killing worldwide and thus reduce the global population.

Exactly the man I was thinking of the moment I saw the title. He has a hell of a lot more motivation than the villain in the recent Kingsman film that's for sure.

Character assessment with big Kingsman 2 spoilers below be warned!

Stalin. The Kulaks had it coming, man.

Just putting this title here may be a spoiler, so be warned.

I haven't seen it, but I saw a video talking about the old fantasy girl anime, Magic Knight Rayearth.

The story seemed super-generic. Three high school girls whisked away to a fantasy world, inadvertently answering the call of a magical damsel in distress, so they can rescue her from the clutches of some cold-hearted big bad villain who always just sits back and looks villainous, while his minions venture forth to stop our heroes.

That's how it all starts. The damsel is all innocent and pure, while the villain has a perpetual scowl. The three heroes face trial after trail from the big bad's lackeys as well as several monsters roaming the land, and our heroes encourage the damsel via telepathy or something.

Then comes the twist:

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here