Going back to being just plain, normal gamers.

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...or rather, continue being normal and shedding off extremists.

Support Troy and his voice. It will make a difference to put things back in place. With focus on fun&quality in development, openess and growth of the hobby and healthy, normal inner environment gaming use to have (outer perception of games and gamers never been healthy, normal or good).

Sounds like that nasty "identity politics" to me.

Maybe people should stop complaining about a word that just means you play video games regularly?

Chefs dont throw off the chef label just cause sometimes people get food poisoning. Just cook your damn food right!

#itsoktobehuman

Attaching an entertainment hobby then making it the backbone of one's identity seems a bit short-sighted and insecure. Am I a filmer? A walker? A drinker? A compulsive cunter?

I'm not even sure what that's about (I have no intention to watch youtube arguments or whatever) but quite frankly normal people never had an issue with this. I just go around freely considering myself a gamer and not worrying about this stuff outside these forums

Eh jeez, can we just forget about Anita? She's over and done with! She got her Patreon money, cancelled her project and went to the bank.

We were never not gamers. There were just poisonous people, purposefully dividing us to profit off of fear from gamers who were convinced they were a minority under attack.
Just go play games. I hear Bendy and the Ink Machine is fun in a Amnesia meets Cuphead way...

McMarbles:
Sounds like that nasty "identity politics" to me.

Frankly I find it funny all these videogamers pretending to own the term 'gamer'.

I hate fake gamer types...

Back in my day it just meant gamblers, boardgamers and tabletop roleplaying games. You know... real gamers.

When the fuck did these filthy casuals start pretending they were gamers?[/sarc]

Silentpony:
Eh jeez, can we just forget about Anita? She's over and done with! She got her Patreon money, cancelled her project and went to the bank.

We were never not gamers. There were just poisonous people, purposefully dividing us to profit off of fear from gamers who were convinced they were a minority under attack.
Just go play games. I hear Bendy and the Ink Machine is fun in a Amnesia meets Cuphead way...

This pretty much sums me up. How much of a snowflake do you have to be cry so much over a criticism? You aren't defined by what others say, you are defined by what you believe.

Dawg, like 99% of my gamer friends have/had no idea what the hell any of this shit is. Know why? They're too busy playing games and doing adult stuff.

There is no way in fuck I'm watching a Goddamn 20 minute video titled "It's OK to be a gamer". It's always been OK to be a gamer. It never stopped being OK. What's it's not OK to be is abusive shithead who harasses people from behind a keyboard or headset just because you can or because someone said something you don't like about your favorite game/game developer/YouTube gaming celeb.

This is almost as bad as that #gamerlivesmatter thread from a while back. If you want to just play games and avoid the politics then fucking do it already. Nobody in the real world gives a shit that you play games because it isn't the 1980s anymore and practically everyone games these days. Even when I was growing up in the mid-90s, everyone I knew had a Genesis or a SNES. This persecution complex nonsense needs to stop.

Silentpony:
Eh jeez, can we just forget about Anita? She's over and done with! She got her Patreon money, cancelled her project and went to the bank.

We were never not gamers. There were just poisonous people, purposefully dividing us to profit off of fear from gamers who were convinced they were a minority under attack.
Just go play games. I hear Bendy and the Ink Machine is fun in a Amnesia meets Cuphead way...

She never canceled her project, she finished it despite all the hate. She made some good points, exaggerated some points too but was ultimately harmless for the waifu crowed, although she does seem to have made a difference since it seems like we are seeing more females and options for females in games now.

Worgen:

Silentpony:
Eh jeez, can we just forget about Anita? She's over and done with! She got her Patreon money, cancelled her project and went to the bank.

We were never not gamers. There were just poisonous people, purposefully dividing us to profit off of fear from gamers who were convinced they were a minority under attack.
Just go play games. I hear Bendy and the Ink Machine is fun in a Amnesia meets Cuphead way...

She never canceled her project, she finished it despite all the hate. She made some good points, exaggerated some points too but was ultimately harmless for the waifu crowed, although she does seem to have made a difference since it seems like we are seeing more females and options for females in games now.

It's not that I don't think she made good points, it's that the suits who listened to her, and the special interests who funded her, have left gaming in a worse state for it.
She started in 2009. Same year Dragon Age, Arkham Asylum, League of Legends, and freaking Minecraft came out!
And while it's unfair to blame all the current problems on her, certainly the suits over reacted to her perceived problems. Games like Mass Effect Andromeda and Assassin's Creed Unity I hold as a desperate reaction to criticism from her and those like her.

Things weren't perfect before her, but they were certainly better than gaming after her.

Silentpony:

Worgen:

Silentpony:
Eh jeez, can we just forget about Anita? She's over and done with! She got her Patreon money, cancelled her project and went to the bank.

We were never not gamers. There were just poisonous people, purposefully dividing us to profit off of fear from gamers who were convinced they were a minority under attack.
Just go play games. I hear Bendy and the Ink Machine is fun in a Amnesia meets Cuphead way...

She never canceled her project, she finished it despite all the hate. She made some good points, exaggerated some points too but was ultimately harmless for the waifu crowed, although she does seem to have made a difference since it seems like we are seeing more females and options for females in games now.

It's not that I don't think she made good points, it's that the suits who listened to her, and the special interests who funded her, have left gaming in a worse state for it.
She started in 2009. Same year Dragon Age, Arkham Asylum, League of Legends, and freaking Minecraft came out!
And while it's unfair to blame all the current problems on her, certainly the suits over reacted to her perceived problems. Games like Mass Effect Andromeda and Assassin's Creed Unity I hold as a desperate reaction to criticism from her and those like her.

Things weren't perfect before her, but they were certainly better than gaming after her.

So then you don't think females needed better representation in gaming? The only reason anyone listened to her is because of the haters, without that she would have been a blip, because of it, she was much more.

Your point here makes no sense what so ever. Why just this year we got Battlerite, Hollow Knight, Wolfenstein 2, Divinity original sin 2 and Strafe.

Silentpony:

It's not that I don't think she made good points, it's that the suits who listened to her, and the special interests who funded her, have left gaming in a worse state for it.
She started in 2009. Same year Dragon Age, Arkham Asylum, League of Legends, and freaking Minecraft came out!
And while it's unfair to blame all the current problems on her, certainly the suits over reacted to her perceived problems. Games like Mass Effect Andromeda and Assassin's Creed Unity I hold as a desperate reaction to criticism from her and those like her.

Things weren't perfect before her, but they were certainly better than gaming after her.

Ha! So ... what exactly can ypu attribute to her criticism? Seriously? I mean the videogame industry is progressively shittier but I don't think of Assassin's Creed as being awful because of Anita's commentary. I see it as being awful because of Ubisoft. Ditto Mass Effect. Ditto anything with lootboxes. Ditto Diablo auction houses. Ditto whatever bullshit garbage that the VGI wants to put over a growing number of; "I'll buy it on sale..." crowds.

Please tell me one, one aspect that Anita's commentary contributed to the growing bullshit of an industry seriously facing a crisis of market loyalty and diminishing total consumption. Is this going to be another "She didn't make things better, ergo she's responsible for making things worse" arguments?

Because if it is, IDNTTYH fucking stupid that sounds.

Anita wrote barebones commentary nobody listened to barring those that had a hate boner for her. After all, plenty of commentary on the depiction of people in videogames (and media in general) before her, didn't tank the videogame market. There's nothing wrong with wsnting a more inclusive VGI. It hasn't hurt any other industry in the world having more womz in the marketplace (in fact, concludive evidence it's promoted total productivity by not hsmstringibg one hslf of thr entire possible workforce participation) ... yet the VGI is somehow so weak not to emulate these trends found elsewhere?

Visual arts scene in general used to be populated by angry white guys. Now it's not. Visual arts scene hasn't died.

Maybe, just maybe, Anita isn't so powerful to either save the industry, nor condemn it to the sands of time?

Frankly it was commentary like this that put her on a fucking pedastal, and rather than admit she wasn't one of the four riders of the gaming apocalypse, you inevitably gave her more political capital than she ever would have had if shr were like every other commentator talking about representation in the VGI.

So congratulations on that.

Now maybe we can focus on inhouse cleaning to get rid of excessive microtransactions, lootboxes, Day 1 patches, PS Store server throttling, and other ugly industry ideas of customer """service""".

Chewster:
Dawg, like 99% of my gamer friends have/had no idea what the hell any of this shit is. Know why? They're too busy playing games and doing adult stuff.

There is no way in fuck I'm watching a Goddamn 20 minute video titled "It's OK to be a gamer". It's always been OK to be a gamer. It never stopped being OK. What's it's not OK to be is abusive shithead who harasses people from behind a keyboard or headset just because you can or because someone said something you don't like about your favorite game/game developer/YouTube gaming celeb.

This is almost as bad as that #gamerlivesmatter thread from a while back. If you want to just play games and avoid the politics then fucking do it already. Nobody in the real world gives a shit that you play games because it isn't the 1980s anymore and practically everyone games these days. Even when I was growing up in the mid-90s, everyone I knew had a Genesis or a SNES. This persecution complex nonsense needs to stop.

Completely nailed this one on the head, my thoughts exactly. People in the real world concerned about this kind of crap are probably the ones throwing a hissy fit online about it as well. Just play games... Fuck

Silentpony:

And while it's unfair to blame all the current problems on her, certainly the suits over reacted to her perceived problems. Games like Mass Effect Andromeda and Assassin's Creed Unity I hold as a desperate reaction to criticism from her and those like her.

Things weren't perfect before her, but they were certainly better than gaming after her.

Wait, how did she help mess up Andromeda and Unity? Because IIRC, Unity had some serious bugginess(Missing Faces, falling through the ground, etc), a boring ass story and completely failed at making the French Revelation interesting(a feat in itself).

Andromeda, on the other hand, suffered from squandering half it's development cycle trying to figure out what they wanted to do and then trying to rush the other half, trying to adapt Frostbite to an RPG(which isn't suited to RPGs, apparently) and being done by the Bioware C team.

I didn't realize Anita was such an Illuminatiequse puppet master that she can get two major companies to screw up their major titles so badly.

In short:
Troy is a game developer that worked for Disney at times of Sarkeesian's project (meaning he was not allowed to address her work).
He wasn't part of GG or anti-GG.
Once he left his position he reached out to Anita to discuss her work but unsurprisingly got ignored (if anything he's late to the party like 5 years?).

He started to churn out commentary on his channel about media coverage of gaming (as a hobby, NOT identity, why some of you are bent on bottling someone enjoying something as someone's identity?). He offers always verbatim description on how he reached given conclusion on various subjects he covered and is pretty open to change his mind or agree to disagree (i.e. likes/pinss comments of people who politely tell him he is completely wrong on something or offer information that undermine his conclusion).

tldw;
in this video he sums up his content so far and offers to provide reasonable counterpoints to 3 media narratives:
(1) People playing video games are mysoginists or racists
(2) Game development is hostile towards women and minorities
(3) GG was primarily about harassing women
pretty much he reaches out and proposes his porfessional, industry insider perspective on these to any mass media outlet interested.

I don't agree with him on few of his points but I lack any solid actual counter arguments to ones he gave. However I think his voice should be heard in media when discussing games as a hobby and the way he works on subject, investigates it and presents his views is something I would expect from people who call themselves now gaming journalists. You don't need to reach same conclusions, just put in same amount of effort, have principles and decent amount of personal culture (so drama/smear pieces would not be a thing).

Oh and if you disagree with his viewpoints and have verifiable information, that stays in opposition to his conclusion, you should just approach him. And don't freak out when you will be asked for substance to back your claims. He's not someone who will jump your throat just because you have no evidence but will not sway his opinion either if all you have is personal feelings about given subject.

PS.
I think I wrote it somewhere before but I'd love if Troy, Jim (Sterling) and John (Bain) would colaborate (well John and Jim do that from time to time) to create weekly content togeather (on Escapist to boot!). They have various perspectives on facets of game's industry and the hobby but they are all in the same spot when it comes to consumer rights and hobby's image in mass media.

trunkage:
This pretty much sums me up. How much of a snowflake do you have to be cry so much over a criticism? You aren't defined by what others say, you are defined by what you believe.

You could very well ask that question of her holiness Beata Anita, as Troy pointed out only two minutes into the video. I mean, in her own words,

Anita Sarkeesian, on addressing her critcs:

They are not critics, they are harassers, so... we'll be very clear on that issue, and no, I have no interest in talking to them.

so there you have it. Criticism is harassment, and no, there's no discussion to be had. Just Listen and Believe, you horrible misogynist, you.

As for me, chalk it up to a generally prickly and quarrelsome personality if you must, but having my moral character called into question over the make believe clothes on the make believe backs of the make believe people (or similarly meaningless trivialities) in mass media I may or may not consume is something than tends to annoy me; particularly when the slightest breath of anything that might be construed as disagreement is treated by an ever-complying, supposedly professional media, as ironclad proof of not only her holiness's claims, but of their very necessity as well.

The last time a con-artist quack rode a wave of moral hysteria into fame and fortune over the evils of mass media entertainment, a medium I really care about was reduced to a sanitized, homogenized, perpetually infantilized shadow of its former self. I'd rather not see it happen again.

Ogoid:
Just Listen and Believe, you horrible misogynist, you.

Oh but remember if you do just Listen and Believe she will still call you a Garbage Human for just being there.

Saelune:
Chefs dont throw off the chef label just cause sometimes people get food poisoning. Just cook your damn food right!

But chefs will violently disagree over who gets to be called a chef. You get this sort everywhere.

Xsjadoblayde:

Am I a filmer? A walker? A drinker? A compulsive cunter?

Hey, I'm a drinker; I think the clinical term is "alcoholic," high-fushuning, shank you very mush.

I am all for that! Missing the old days

Worgen:
SNIP

Addendum_Forthcoming:
SNIP

My point being that the Suits grasped the wrong end of the stick. They never cared about inclusivity in games, they cared that people were complaining about it. So they just used the simplest tropes they could to appease, but it was all utterly bland and token.
So instead of Justice League Unlimited, we have characters in ME:A just going "I'm a transgender character!" and you can fucking hear the confetti falling from the sky and a great big banner reading "WE DID IT!" flying.

Minorities became traits. So instead of a fully developed character who happens to be black or a woman, we got character who's sole identity was Black or Woman.
And then the press release, positive coverage for finally having a playable woman in Assassin's Creed, and then Unity happens, an utterly bland and generic title with a female lead who's sole identity is that she's a woman.

Silentpony:

My point being that the Suits grasped the wrong end of the stick. They never cared about inclusivity in games, they cared that people were complaining about it. So they just used the simplest tropes they could to appease, but it was all utterly bland and token.
So instead of Justice League Unlimited, we have characters in ME:A just going "I'm a transgender character!" and you can fucking hear the confetti falling from the sky and a great big banner reading "WE DID IT!" flying.

And that ruined ME:A? Yeah. No. What ruined ME:A was being a buggy mess. After all, plenty of thoroughly disinteresting NPCs in all other Mass Effects. Tropish white dudes. Tropish sexy aliens. Tropish mentor former CO. Tropish racism allegories... Still played them.

Minorities became traits. So instead of a fully developed character who happens to be black or a woman, we got character who's sole identity was Black or Woman.
And then the press release, positive coverage for finally having a playable woman in Assassin's Creed, and then Unity happens, an utterly bland and generic title with a female lead who's sole identity is that she's a woman.

And? Sorry to point this out, but 99% of videogame characters are bland tropes with a singular trait that defines. That was more than apparent in videogames. A shred of an industry trying to actually include characters that aren't generic, grizzled, cisgender white dude isn't some failing. After all, we got the same reactionary commentary about Crem. Narratives like the one you're spinning, entertaining as it is, is why I'm far more interested in the boardgaming scene. That seems to have no problems attracting men, women, trans or otherwise and none of this fucking stupid drama.

If you want an answer as to how the VGI could create more inclusively representative gaming, it could do the obvious and actually talk to people and research the matter.

But then again someone like you will run the commentary like that is also somehow, magically bad ... and it somehow ruined gaming. And more and more people like me will realise how thoroughly stupid all this fake gamer drama is. I'll be there having fun with real gamers at a table or LGS somewhere.

You know ... with friends.... gaming...

Are we really trying to fight these battles again? Really people, nobody has literally anything else to do? Can you people just fucking move on with your life already?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
SNIP

I never said fake gamer. Do not put words in my mouth.

Silentpony:

I never said fake gamer. Do not put words in my mouth.

No, I'm calling reactionaries like you fake gamers. I do so because people seem to have a problem with developers who at least put in a sincere attempt of populating their worlds with a diversity of characters and call it an 'agenda' or somehow bad on its own. Regardless of how relatively important it is to gameplay.

After all, more inclusive representation is a facet of games like the Netrunner reprint.

Just look at the Runners. You have what apprears to be a Filo G-Mod, cybernetically charged technosavant ala Chaos Theory...

image

Who seems to have interracial gay couple for parents!

image

------

And all the storyline comes from the cards. That reprint of the CT Shaper ID was because CT got rotated out of the card pool last cycle.

But don't stop there ... you also have a gender fluid Anarch ID...

image

And so many IDs that have as much backstory as basically what the cards themselves featuring them will allow. Chaos Theory is one of the few written up story characters of the Android Universe. And at best it's a page and a bit. Three quarters of which is just a single run she did.

Nobody gave a fuck.

You want to know why? Because there's no real reason not to be diverse with representation. Even if it's simply for the sake of showing a diversity of people who live in the world that the player can select as an ID and feel like, for a moment, that they can find new means to invest themselves into the story that you create for yourself through the game.

The game that lets you be a techno-anarchist running highly dangerous operations to subvert the power of the corps for whatever personal reasons you might have. How you construct your deck is precisely how you approach the problem of the corporation, the problem of the job, before youe.

It was nice to feel represented on its own, and even if you don't care the game is pretty fucking awesome on its own. And I wouldn't play it if the game wasn't awesome. I don't even run Quetzal, I run predominantly CT (until rotation, but now they're bringing her back...) and then I started running Smoke as my core runner IDs go-to when I'm bringing my A-game... as I'm a Shaper player through and through. On the corp side of things, my love will always be Sync NBN deck... occasionally Blue Sun.

I also occasionally like playing Jesminder, and sometimes Omar Keung when I'm feeling feisty and experimenting beyond Shaper.

These were the three Runners you had in the core. Their backstories were non-extant. Still nobody gave a fuck and nobody complained how there weren't any assumed WASPs or how they were 'shoehorning' in *gasp* diversity of character representation!

I'm so glad I never shared my generation's inordinate obsession with what to call myself.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
(...)

The point of the game is fun not proving superiority of one agenda over another. The point of variety in game are choices not representation. When you forget about such simple thing you steer away from being a plain gamer - someone who enjoys a hobby and stumble towards identities/politics/social values etc.

Point of this thread was presenting someone moderate, experienced and open to others. Please remain (all) civil and don't engulf yourself in bilateral squabbles over some of the notions touched on by Troy. Point of OP was rehashing times when being called gamer didn't determine anything beside aknowleding that you are someone who (perhaps too much) likes to spend time playing games.

BreakfastMan:
Are we really trying to fight these battles again? Really people, nobody has literally anything else to do? Can you people just fucking move on with your life already?

Are you trying to tell me that identity politics is a waste of time? What if these people enjoy fighting useless battles? What if that's their hobby?

Why don't we have a name for people who engage in identity politics? Since they like labels so much, we could give them another label to fight about. It's the gift that keeps on giving! Plus, then you could get all the gamers, punks, and all the other annoying, myopic twats to all fight each other. We'd be expanding their hatred-base by orders of magnitude.

Jamcie Kerbizz:
The point of the game is fun not proving superiority of one agenda over another. The point of variety in game are choices not representation. When you forget about such simple thing you steer away from being a plain gamer - someone who enjoys a hobby and stumble towards identities/politics/social values etc.

Point of this thread was presenting someone moderate, experienced and open to others. Please remain (all) civil and don't engulf yourself in bilateral squabbles over some of the notions touched on by Troy. Point of OP was rehashing times when being called gamer didn't determine anything beside aknowleding that you are someone who (perhaps too much) likes to spend time playing games.

Garbage. When people bring out whoppers like Anita somehow being responsible for Ubisoft bringing out a ridiculously shitty product, quite clearly the agenda is simply ignoring how shitty the product is and why.

Anita wasn't the only one talking about inclusivity in gaming ... it was abounding elsewhere across all forms of gaming. People were having a supreme disconnect between just how the fuck could videogames be as blandly generic and often offensive as they are, while other media (also within gaming) actually seems to be wishing to improve its representation of various people because people consume media.

The whole point of the Netrunner example was to show you precisely that it's been happening in boardgaming for awhile now. And that hasn't actually weakened its product. It's a pretty fucking phenomenal game ... if people would actually sit down and play a game that is made up of a diverse batch of runners facing off against 4 consolidated megacorporations with numerous interplanetary branches. Also comprising their own tapestry of different executive characters from all sorts of walks of life. From clones, to androids, to G-mods, to cybered up sysops, to Our Lord and Saviour...

Now just imagine if all the fake gamers might not pretend that having a diversity of characters is somehow an 'agenda' beyond attempting to populate it with diverse characters and actually sat down to fucking play the game.

Ironman126:

BreakfastMan:
Are we really trying to fight these battles again? Really people, nobody has literally anything else to do? Can you people just fucking move on with your life already?

Are you trying to tell me that identity politics is a waste of time?

99% of the time, yeah. Especially when it is an identity based solely on what you consume.

Ironman126:

Why don't we have a name for people who engage in identity politics? Since they like labels so much, we could give them another label to fight about. It's the gift that keeps on giving! Plus, then you could get all the gamers, punks, and all the other annoying, myopic twats to all fight each other. We'd be expanding their hatred-base by orders of magnitude.

Because everyone does it. We might like to call our ideological opponents out on it when we think they are being unusually narrow minded, but the truth is that we all engage in identity politics. We do it all the time in our daily lives and it is so hardwired into us humans that we can't escape it. Doesn't matter if our identity is social, cultural, political, religious, medical or whatever, we will end up making decisions and hold beliefs based on our identity.

The stupid part is not identity politics (because why would I not be in favor of decisions that favor Swedes, nurses and geeks, since those are all things I am?), the stupid part is the attempt to make it an insult and to use it as an attack on people you disagree with. The particular irony of the "identity politics battle" in gaming is that those that are ferociously defending their identity as gamers are also the most vocal about how stupid their opponents are because they practice identity politics. There's an amusing dissonance there between the insults they use and what they themselves actually believe, you know?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
SNIP

....no, no one cared about Net Runner because it's Net Runner.

Diversity doesn't equal fun or a good game, and don't try to pretend it does.
Diversity as an idea is great. Good for it! But token diversity really does bring a game down. Watered down, one note characters are a bad thing and you shouldn't want to defend them simply because of tokenism.

Silentpony:

Diversity doesn't equal fun or a good game, and don't try to pretend it does.

Totally not my point and you fucking know it.

Diversity as an idea is great. Good for it! But token diversity really does bring a game down. Watered down, one note characters are a bad thing and you shouldn't want to defend them simply because of tokenism.

As proof that you really weren't paying attention. The most fleshed out of any of those characters storyline wise is CT ... at a popping 3/4s of an A4 page. Most of her storyline, her character, is fleshed out through the cards...


It's about as 'tokenistic' as it gets, and yet it's still a phenomenal fucking game. It's almost as if 'gamers' who are fucking gamers should sit down and play some fucking games. Not see bogeymen wherever they can. After all, the Android Universe itself would be pretty fucking mediocre if it hadn't explored the multitude of corporate conflicts, and looked at the social relationships between people and megacorporations whose influence spanned all of Earth, the Moon, and even to Mars.

Once again, no one fucking cared there was a non-binary runner, no one cared of an Indian Shaper, no one cares there's a Aged Chinese conspiracy theorist runner, no one cares there's a black anti-corporate mercenary runner ... and yeah, I'll go on the record and say I'm less inclined to believe a universe of high mobility, megacorporate entities bigger than governments and not have a whole lot of diverse runners who opposed them for various reasons. Whether because of clone rights, hyperglobalism (hypercelestialism?), and the growing insecurity of the individual in the face of privately run companies that employ hundreds of millions, or in the case of CT simply because she wants to pit her rig, her custom programs, her mods, and her brain against the biggest opponents she can find.

Please explain to me the mechanics of having a gender non-conforming protagonist being simply gender-nonconforming making it the dreaded 'tokenism' (oooohhh, heaven forbid)? Surely it's enough that they're gender non-conforming, and maybe show to be actual regular people, with a regular day job, with a regular education, that suffers an extraordinary event, and is shown to react to it like other normal human beings?

Is that then the dreaded tokenism?

I assume there are some sort of arcane mechanic for this given, you know, why nbot just make any futuristic setting have 1 in 7 be of Chinese descent, make 1 in 8 be Indian, and so on ... all in order for maximum 'non-tokenism'. Given 12% of humanity is gay we might actually get good representations of homosexual relationships. You know... jmore gay people adopting kids in games. Raising them like your average parents. Perhaps show them struggling to clothe and feed their kids in the face of some social injustice like a company refusing to pay them their dues leading to an act of desperacy?

Hell, if we go by maximum non-tokenism, we could show 1 in 100 characters trans and non-binary characters trying to lead a life of basic dignity ...

All for the sake of being non-tokenistic, you agree?

Given trans people are over-represented in the military by a factor of twice to treble the elistment rate of cisgender people, maybe we can have 1 in 30 people in a military shooter be trans!? For the sake of non-tokenism... In fact, I'd argue the diversity of the Netrunner cast is itself maximum non-tokenism solely because obviously white people for 5 generations or so are curiously a minority compared to the number of other people that populate the setting.

You know what's fucking funny? Divinity:OS2.

You can play as fucking Lizardmen and Undead ... having a trans person in a game simply be trans and explore the crushing normality of human existence? Clearly tokenism... Glad to know that if there are Lizard people, they won't face the same barriers to their normalcy... but frankly I don't think that's a good thing.

I thought about it a bit and came to a realization: I don't really give a shit anymore. Enough time passed and it seems most of the stupidity rescinded so now talking about it like it matters is like fighting Japanese soldiers from WW2 who didn't get the memo the war was over, it's tempting but time wasting.

The whole discussion in general is fucking stupid, "game matters" when it's my side but "this is just children's games" when it's the other, "stop being a little bitch" when another is insulted but acting like this is the end of the world when a person tells you mean things.

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