I am not watching Justice League until I see Snyder's Cut of the Movie.

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Because after doing research on this, Warner Bros. clearly took full advantage of the situation when Snyder left to deal with his Family Problems and hired Joss Wheadon to take on the director's chair. I mean 3 Months Extensive Reshoots of the movie was a certainty enough they wanted to change Snyder's vision of the movie to just be another Avenger's clone.

I have been following Comicbookcast2's videos on this and he showcase some many examples of things that were cut or changed from Snyder's cut of the movie, things that were meant to follow up plot threads established by Batman v Superman, biggest example was that Superman was supposed to come back, but with the Black Suit and a villain (and still has his moustache) and the Green Lanterns were supposed to make an appearence.

In the end I knew this would happen to the theatrical movie when I heard they were not gonna seperated the movie into 2 parts, the massive extensive reshoots done by Joss Wheadon, and that its gonna be reduced to a 2 hour run time instead of 3.

I honestly don't think it would be any better.

Kenbo Slice:
I honestly don't think it would be any better.

Basically my thought, when I think of the flaws with Justice League (which I thought was ok) I can't think of anything I'd expect Snyder to have fixed. The only thing was that the film felt too short, with scenes not built up properly. Snyder might have fixed the length, but I can't see his narrative pacing being better.
Plus the idea of the black suited villainous Superman just sounds dumb to me at this point in the DCCU, and there was already enough characters that really needed more filling without adding in the green lanterns.

There's 0% chance of seeing a Snyder cut. It would apparently cost millions to complete.

To be frank, the stuff that's missing wouldn't make the movie much better for me. It has its share of flaws, but one of them is the lack of character development for Aquaman, Cyborg, and Supes (Flash does quite well actually). I include Supes, because his resurrection feels a bit rushed as it is, he doesn't need the black suit or anything. Likewise, adding some like Green Lanterns would make the film bloated in the same way BvS was.

The other problem is Steppenwolf. Now, despite the claims of some, he's not the worst comic book movie villain ever (even in the DCEU, he's at least got more depth to him than Incubus), but while he's intimidating to look at and to fight, a longer cut wouldn't change that he's just a big brute with an axe with little character depth. A long cut could alter that, but I doubt it.

To be honest, Justice League is a perfectly average, acceptable, even overall enjoyable film as it is. I could pinpoint almost the exact moment that Whedon took over, but the film feels congruent, I didn't notice any 'moustache issues,' etc. To me, it's a slightly downgraded version of The Avengers, a film I didn't like much either for similar reasons.

Kenbo Slice:
I honestly don't think it would be any better.

Yeah, this. That movie was doomed from the first script. No amount of reshooting, editing, or whatever could have saved it.

WB would have been better scrapping the entire movie, and doing a page-1 rewrite, and filming an entirely new movie. Sure it would have double the cost, but then there would be a chance of another DCEU movie. At this point every other movie is up in the air, with signs pointing towards suspended forever.

Haven't seen it myself. That said, I agree that Snyder's version was probably not much better. Don't get me wrong, Snyder has really good chops as a technical director. He's not as good a storyteller though. He's great at creating awesome-looking shit. But he neglects to make sure the narrative has enough connective tissue that we care about what's actually happening in that awesome shit. Given enough time he may yet find the right balance. But things you can't control happen and a random misfortune meant that no matter what, it wouldn't be this time around in a really unfair way. And I'm not talking about studio interference.

The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Casual Shinji:
The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?

And WB was gonna fire him after BvS:

Why am I even arguing at this point, The echo chamber here just makes me sad that I have no leg to stand on.

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?

No, I just want them to be good movies. Preferably stand-alone titles that have an identity, that have a beginning and an end, and that don't reek of desperately trying to catch up to Marvel. I'd rather they not copypaste anything, but if that's all they can do they should look at their animated series and recent videogames.

Casual Shinji:

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?

No, I just want them to be good movies. Preferably stand-alone titles that have an identity, that have a beginning and an end, and that don't reek of desperately trying to catch up to Marvel. I'd rather they not copypaste anything, but if that's all they can do they should look at their animated series and recent videogames.

Sometimes I wish Superheroes stay as Video Games and Comic Books and Animation, and stop oversaturating the movie theater.

...Why? Anyway, I wonder how the movie holds up against JL:TAS Secret Origins. I remember loving the first three episodes of JL:TAS, but, you know, nostalgia and all.

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?]

Of course not. The big thing I want from the DCCU is to stop being so goddamn dark, gloomy, and dour.

Canadamus Prime:

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?]

Of course not. The big thing I want from the DCCU is to stop being so goddamn dark, gloomy, and dour.

1. And in place of dark, gloomy, and dour you want what? Because me I want epic, Lord of the Rings style epic. With Scene chewing Badassery set the Choir bombing music.

2. If you want to DC to not be dark anymore, get rid of Batman, imagine a DC Universe without Batman?

Samtemdo8:

Canadamus Prime:

Samtemdo8:

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?]

Of course not. The big thing I want from the DCCU is to stop being so goddamn dark, gloomy, and dour.

1. And in place of dark, gloomy, and dour you want what? Because me I want epic, Lord of the Rings style epic. With Scene chewing Badassery set the Choir bombing music.

2. If you want to DC to not be dark anymore, get rid of Batman, imagine a DC Universe without Batman?

1. A more upbeat kind of movie? I mean, I loved The Lord of the Rings, but they couldn't be further, both thematically and aesthehtically, than the DCAU if they tried. At the very least, the DCAU could do something actually dark, instead of faux-grimdark that takes itself way more serious than is necessary (with for example, a Question movie. Fat chance though.)

2. Unnecessary. BTAS, Justice League TAS, hell, even the 1989 Batman film; have all showed you can do amazing Batman without being grimdork like the DCAU movies have been. It was a concious stylistic choice independent of character (I mean, the first DCAU Snyder film was Man of Steel, which didn't have Batman in it).

OT: I don't see that it would change much. What happened to Snyder was horrible backroom politicking, but I'm not sure his vision would have been better. Then again, Justice League is tanking hard, so who knows.

There is no Zach Snyder cut of the movie and there never will be.

From what I understand Zach Snyder basically left a skeleton of a movie behind when he departed. They'd finished a lot of the major scenes but few of the connecting tissues, and one of the major reasons for the reshoots was because they had to figure out a way to get those major (and expensive) scenes to fit together while reshooting as little as possible to make everything make sense in the allotted "under 2 hour" run time dictated by Warner Brothers.

They basically did as good a job as they could have done under the constraints that Snyder's original vision and WB's requirements put on them. The movie isn't what I would call good, but it could have been a lot worse, and was more competent than I expected, even if I did hate most of the humor (didn't think it gelled well with the character designs and aesthetic) and did end up breaking down laughing during several of the poorly written "hurry move the plot along" parts that were supposed to be serious.

Frankly speaking though, I don't think that the movie would have been any better had Snyder actually finished it. It would likely have been worse and more non-nonsensical.

Samtemdo8:

Canadamus Prime:

Samtemdo8:

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?]

Of course not. The big thing I want from the DCCU is to stop being so goddamn dark, gloomy, and dour.

1. And in place of dark, gloomy, and dour you want what? Because me I want epic, Lord of the Rings style epic. With Scene chewing Badassery set the Choir bombing music.

2. If you want to DC to not be dark anymore, get rid of Batman, imagine a DC Universe without Batman?

1. Something similar in tone to Bruce Timm's DCAU would be nice.
2. Once again I refer you to Bruce Timm's DCAU.

These are board room movies. It doesn't matter who makes them.

I agree. What they did to Snyder's work is just unethical. To be fair, I'm an unapologetic Zack Snyder fqnboy and I loved BvS but giving Snyder's work to a hack like Whedon just... well, the thought makes me very, very sad.

Canadamus Prime:

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?]

Of course not. The big thing I want from the DCCU is to stop being so goddamn dark, gloomy, and dour.

So...the MCU?

That aside, the DCEU hasn't been any of those things since WW - arguably since Suicide Squad.

Samtemdo8:

2. If you want to DC to not be dark anymore, get rid of Batman, imagine a DC Universe without Batman?

To be frank, I wouldn't mind that, in as much that (and this is a problem the DC Universe has as a whole in my eyes), is that it makes no sense why Batman is hanging out with actual super-humans. To its credit, Justice League actually brings this up, even if it doesn't fully explore it.

whoever you're listening to is feeding you tripe, CG lip happened because the studio making Mission Impossible 6 wouldn't allow him to shave his stache his character has in that movie, they were doing principal photography for that at the same time as the JL reshoots

and Snyder's cut doesn't exist, the movie wasn't done at that point, his stuff that got changed or thrown out was varying degrees of unfinished, but there was an astonishing amount gunk cut in editing, so you might get an extra hour on home release

if you're lucky, some of it is not from the reshoots

I think the best you can hope for is some sort of Synder commentary about what he would have done. Maybe storyboards.

Johnny Novgorod:
These are board room movies. It doesn't matter who makes them.

Which makes me wonder why they even bring on someone like Zack Snyder in the first place.

Whether you like the man and his works or not, he has a clear artistic vision and style of directing movies. Something the movie currently running in theaters lacks.

If they wanted a yes man who'll make whatever they want, WB should've just hired Brett Ratner.

Samtemdo8:
Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?

I have to ask. Why do you keep acting like Marvel and "DARKNESS!! NO PARENTS!!" are the only two ways to make a superhero movie?

I would pay more to never see a Zack Snyder version. He's a crap filmmaker and the main reason MoS and BvS:DoJ both sucked so badly.

KingsGambit:
I would pay more to never see a Zack Snyder version. He's a crap filmmaker and the main reason MoS and BvS:DoJ both sucked so badly.

Christopher Nolan hired Zack to direct what was going to be a trilogy of Superman Man of Steel movies, than WB came and said they wanted Batman in the next movie now.

BeetleManiac:

Samtemdo8:
Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?

I have to ask. Why do you keep acting like Marvel and "DARKNESS!! NO PARENTS!!" are the only two ways to make a superhero movie?

Because the other choices are parody and camp.

Samtemdo8:
Warner Bros. clearly took full advantage of the situation when Snyder left to deal with his Family Problems and hired Joss Wheadon to take on the director's chair.

I think the reverse; that Snyder's family tragedy has prevented the worst criticisms of his recent films and that if he'd seen the project to completion he would be getting it fully in the face. Because his last few films were absolutely fucking awful and he should never have been given another film after Batman Versus Superman.

I don't say that as anyone who's partisan for Marvel or DC either, that shit doesn't apply to normal people audiences that don't give a shit about the comics. Batman Versus Superman was the worst film I'd seen in years, since The Losers actually, and if I hadn't have been watching it with my partner I'd have simply left the theatre about 90 minutes in.

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
The less Snyderverse these DC movies get the better. I don't know if WB has some sort of multiple movie deal signed with him, because most people hate his take on Superman and now Batman, yet he keeps getting to make them.

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?

Nope, but that would probably still not be as bad as the Zach Snyder shitheap. At this point, I think DC should just cut their losses instead of trying to throw good movies after bad. Go make some more standalone films or series like the Dark Knight trilogy, or even, in all honesty, Wonder Woman, which had around zero connection to the rest of the franchise. Even if the DC movies start getting good, it'll now be the case that you need to suffer through dreck like BvS, Justice League and Suicide Squad to get the backstory.

Marvel came up with the whole "shared universe" thing. They obviously planned it quite well and have basically one guy (Kevin Feige) steering the larger ship. DC since the start has just been trying to play catch up despite clearly not really having their own shit together. Just let Marvel ride away with the concept, and make something else. I think some people would appreciate being able to go to a superhero movie again without wondering how it fits into some larger 30-movie plot.

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:

2. If you want to DC to not be dark anymore, get rid of Batman, imagine a DC Universe without Batman?

To be frank, I wouldn't mind that, in as much that (and this is a problem the DC Universe has as a whole in my eyes), is that it makes no sense why Batman is hanging out with actual super-humans. To its credit, Justice League actually brings this up, even if it doesn't fully explore it.

I wouldn't want to remove Batman personally since I'm a pretty big fan but there is so much to do with this dynamic that the films ignore. As you mentioned this is a common theme in the DCAU (especially the Justice League Cartoon).

Honestly if I was calling the shots every character would have gotten their own movie (similar to Marvel's approach) but with varying tones of seriousness. Green Lantern and Corps is more of a swashbuckling space cop adventure. Flash is a more personal and funny movie. Wonder Woman would be a sweeping epic about gods and the pantheon. We would actually see Superman as a symbol of hope and make it clear that in contrast to Snyder's take on the character, Clark sees himself as a human first and Superman second. Hence why he chooses to live among regular people and use his powers for good. Then a more down to earth and grounded Batman movie based on any number of quality Batman stories. You could even go so dark as to do The Cult if we wanted to push the R rating.

Once actually well thought out and interesting characters are latched onto by audiences then you do the team up. Honestly Justice League War which adapts the New 52 assembly of the league is as good as any place to start. You can see how the team fits together (and perhaps explore how Batman is a bit of an odd-man out). Then if that's a hit you do Tower of Babel. You get a Batman centric story that nonetheless includes all the heroes and events that are linked to their own characteristics. You get to explore Batman's place in the Justice League and put him front and center (perfect for the suits in marketing). The League kicks him out, creating drama and opening the door to side stories with Batman and the Outsiders, solo movies, or Justice League Dark. Then of course his triumphant return to the League, maybe during an invasion of the White Martians or something.

I have no idea why I typed this out. I guess I just got excited and honestly I'm just so disappointed with the DCEU as someone who desperately wants these movies to be good. I won't be seeing Justice League until I find it on HBO Go for free. I'm done supporting what WB is doing to these characters. There are decades of quality stories and characterization to pull from and we're getting trash. Because Sam's contention that superhero movies can only fit into a couple genres and styles is just plain wrong. If you take even a cursory glance at the stories and history of these characters you can see the disparate styles and stories that make them up. Drama, romance, sweeping adventure, noir, vengeance, hope. These characters and stories are all of them and more.

Chimpzy:

Johnny Novgorod:
These are board room movies. It doesn't matter who makes them.

Which makes me wonder why they even bring on someone like Zack Snyder in the first place.

Whether you like the man and his works or not, he has a clear artistic vision and style of directing movies. Something the movie currently running in theaters lacks.

If they wanted a yes man who'll make whatever they want, WB should've just hired Brett Ratner.

Nothing against Snyder himself, but with the way these movies come about I just don't think it really matters who sits in the director's chair. With the exception of Nolan's trilogy and the first couple of Marvel movies, the phenomenom has spiralled well past a single person's vision and is based more on market research and projections and less on artistic flair.

Samtemdo8:
Because the other choices are parody and camp.

How do you figure? How is it that there are only 4 ways to do a superhero movie? Is that the limit of the human emotional spectrum? Is no other tone worth pursuing?

Hawki:

Canadamus Prime:

Samtemdo8:

Do you want DC to be a copypaste of the MCU?]

Of course not. The big thing I want from the DCCU is to stop being so goddamn dark, gloomy, and dour.

So...the MCU?

That aside, the DCEU hasn't been any of those things since WW - arguably since Suicide Squad.

Noooo. As I already stated, something similar in tone to the DCAU would be nice.
Also, at least in MoS and BvS, everything is all dour all the time so there is no juxtaposition when shit actually hits the fan and none of the characters are relatable so I don't care what happens to them.
Wonder Woman was the only good DCEU movie I've seen so far. I haven't seen Justice League.

I want to see the cut where Superman has a mustache.

JUMBO PALACE:

As you mentioned this is a common theme in the DCAU (especially the Justice League Cartoon).

I said DCEU, not DCAU. The film touches on it, just doesn't fully explore it. Can't comment on the DCAU.

JUMBO PALACE:
We would actually see Superman as a symbol of hope and make it clear that in contrast to Snyder's take on the character, Clark sees himself as a human first and Superman second. Hence why he chooses to live among regular people and use his powers for good.

Isn't that the entire point of MoS?

Rhetorical question, many say it isn't, but whatever issues I have with MoS, it's take on Supes isn't among them. If anything, JL is a far more garish take because it tries to retroactively convince us that "boyscout Superman" was around from the start (I don't have an inherent problem with Supes being a boyscout, but at least in this context, make the transition, don't retroactively force it), plus it shows how overpowered he is. Zod's a better villain than Steppenwolf not only due to characterization, but also because he's more evenly matched.

JUMBO PALACE:
If you take even a cursory glance at the stories and history of these characters you can see the disparate styles and stories that make them up. Drama, romance, sweeping adventure, noir, vengeance, hope. These characters and stories are all of them and more.

I'd say each DCEU film has had a different tone to it bar BvS being similar to MoS. I don't think any of them have been "good" per se, but that's another issue. Even the MCU has given me only four genuinely good films outside a plethora of average ones.

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