A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

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Reviews, I meant reviews. And critics. Which sounds suspiciously like biscuits, but that doesn't quite align properly. Anymoo, the links are here;

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42327904

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2017/12/12/review-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-gloomier-flawed-but-ultimately-successful-sequel/

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/12/16766570/the-last-jedi-review-rian-johnson-star-wars-daisy-ridley-adam-driver

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-review-episode-viii-rian-johnson

https://www.empireonline.com/movies/star-wars-last-jedi/review/

The general consensus is positive, wonky middle, odd plot threads, but a fresh vision that might prove divisive for certain old fans.
Is anybody planning on seeing this? Am not really a classic 'fan' so-to-speak, but I think space adventure movies involving psychic neon ninjas hold far more potential than they're often presenting, so am always hopeful, as long as the characters and world are solid and (relatively) convincing.

I eat, drink, and breathe Star Wars, so I will be seeing this. I am very excited and I'm getting off the internet before some foo spoils it.
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Beware incoming "Rey is a mary sue" arguments.

I just hope its not a remake of Empire Strikes Back. JJ isn't exactly known for his original work...

Can we just wait a year for people to say what they actually thought of the movie first like what happened with The Force Awakens?

The movie will likely be a rehash of the second film of the trilogy with the obligatory downer ending and maybe Ray losing an arm. heck, most secondary trilogy films fall into that category (Pirates 2, for example) and I don't expect the new movie to be a bastion of originality.

Silentpony:
I just hope its not a remake of Empire Strikes Back. JJ isn't exactly known for his original work...

Umm, it's written and directed by Rian Johnson.

inu-kun:
Can we just wait a year for people to say what they actually thought of the movie first like what happened with The Force Awakens?

Nope. You evidently haven't read anything about this whatsoever and are just assuming everything based on one film and a misguided delusion of wisdom.

Xsjadoblayde:

Silentpony:
I just hope its not a remake of Empire Strikes Back. JJ isn't exactly known for his original work...

Umm, it's written and directed by Rian Johnson.

inu-kun:
Can we just wait a year for people to say what they actually thought of the movie first like what happened with The Force Awakens?

Nope. You evidently haven't read anything about this whatsoever and are just assuming everything based on one film and a misguided delusion of wisdom.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0009190/

He was a producer on Last Jedi

Saw the movie this morning. It's the weaker of the new batch, as far as I'm concerned.

Silentpony:
I just hope its not a remake of Empire Strikes Back.

inu-kun:
The movie will likely be a rehash of the second film of the trilogy with the obligatory downer ending and maybe Ray losing an arm. heck, most secondary trilogy films fall into that category (Pirates 2, for example) and I don't expect the new movie to be a bastion of originality.

The movie could be construed as a vague rendition of Empire Strikes Back because of some very obvious parallelisms but it's nowhere near a beat-by-beat remake like Force Awakens was of the 1977 movie.

Cold Shiny:
Beware incoming "Rey is a mary sue" arguments.

It's not as egregious in this movie, fortunately, though...

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Silentpony:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0009190/

He was a producer on Last Jedi

Which means nought when it comes to the creation process.

Xsjadoblayde:

Silentpony:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0009190/

He was a producer on Last Jedi

Which means nought when it comes to the creation process.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: it doesn't matter who helms these board room movies.
And as for producers having shit to do with the "creation process", remind me who made The Nightmare Before Christmas?

I'll pass. I saw The Force Awakens and it only served to remind me that I don't like these movies. I'll watch that RLM video though because why not.

inu-kun:
Can we just wait a year for people to say what they actually thought of the movie first like what happened with The Force Awakens?

The movie will likely be a rehash of the second film of the trilogy with the obligatory downer ending and maybe Ray losing an arm. heck, most secondary trilogy films fall into that category (Pirates 2, for example) and I don't expect the new movie to be a bastion of originality.

It's totally going to original because Rey actually loses a leg, not an arm. totally different

Johnny Novgorod:

Xsjadoblayde:

Silentpony:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0009190/

He was a producer on Last Jedi

Which means nought when it comes to the creation process.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: it doesn't matter who helms these board room movies.
And as for producers having shit to do with the "creation process", remind me who made The Nightmare Before Christmas?

So we're just going to ignore the writer and director, the editor, cinematographer, art director, the 3 casting crew members, the 11 other producers and the fact that 'executive producer' is as meaningless a credit as you can get just so one name people can easily hate is focused on? Fucking really?

Johnny Novgorod:

Cold Shiny:
Beware incoming "Rey is a mary sue" arguments.

It's not as egregious in this movie, fortunately, though...

It didn't seem 'egregious' at all. I mean Anakin? Fantastic pilot at 9 years old. Humans don't even have properly developed spatial awareness at 9.

Luke? Fantastic pilot that, by his own admission, hadn't actually been to the academy yet can pilot a military fighter.

...of course she has to best Luke in a duel.

So? Luke beat Darth Vader.

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Can people please outline this argument for me?

All the movie protagonists have been fantastic pilots. All of them defeat opponents that should be vastly superior to them.

And before anyone starts, Rey was a tech scavenger and mechanic. And Han in The Empire Strikes Back is shown not to be so good with machines. Moreover, in that scene you also seen him cannibalizing parts from one part of the ship to replace parts elsewhere ... which is supposed to suggest that maybe he doesn't keep his ship in decent knick, and it's meant to humanize the Millenium Falcon as to be truly representative of its owners.

Finding 'interesting' solutions to problems, self-sufficiency, and 'controlled chaos', that remarks the the idea of the marred scoundrel both within and without...

The idea that the Millenium Falcon actually flies and performs under pressure regardless of its shambolic and unreliable nature, is a metaphor for the pilots themselves...

Xsjadoblayde:

Johnny Novgorod:

Xsjadoblayde:

Which means nought when it comes to the creation process.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: it doesn't matter who helms these board room movies.
And as for producers having shit to do with the "creation process", remind me who made The Nightmare Before Christmas?

So we're just going to ignore the writer and director, the editor, cinematographer, art director, the 3 casting crew members, the 11 other producers and the fact that 'executive producer' is as meaningless a credit as you can get just so one name people can easily hate is focused on? Fucking really?

I know a design-by-committee movie when I see one. Disney's Star Wars?

image

Designed by commitee.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Johnny Novgorod:

Cold Shiny:
Beware incoming "Rey is a mary sue" arguments.

It's not as egregious in this movie, fortunately, though...

It didn't seem 'eggregious' at all. I mean Anakin? Fantastic pilot at 9 years old. Humans don't even have properly developed spatial awareness at 9.

I know, it's almost as if Phantom Menace sucked balls. Crazy.

Luke? Fantastic pilot that, by his own admission, hadn't actually been to the academy yet can pilot a military fighter.

Good thing the Force guided that one shot too.

...of course she has to best Luke in a duel.

So? Luke beat Darth Vader.

... you've seen Empire Strikes Back right?

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Can people please outline this argument for me?

All the movie protagonists have been fantastic pilots. All of them defeat opponents that should be vastly superior to them.

It's not that she defeats better opponents so much as proving that she's better than established characters at the thing they've been established for (Han as a mechanic, Chewie as a pilot, Luke as a swordsman, etc). That's fanfic prose. And she does it immediately too. "Luke beat Darth Vader". Uh, yeah, by the third movie and four years into the story.

Johnny Novgorod:

I know, it's almost as if Phantom Menace sucked balls. Crazy.

Phantom Menace did, but then again I doubt all problems of the movie can be tied to Anakin being good with machines.

Good thing the Force guided that one shot too.

Wow, so who are you calling a Mary Sue again? The Force doesn't make people natural pilots. Obi? How about Leia? You don't see her taking the controls of one of the turrets, despite objectively being better (if the Force just made you good with spaceships) than taking away one pilot from the helm.

... you've seen Empire Strikes Back right?

You've seen RotJ?

It's not that she defeats better opponents so much as proving that she's better than established characters at the thing they've been established for (Han as a mechanic, Chewie as a pilot, Luke as a swordsman, etc). That's fanfic prose. And she does it immediately too. "Luke beat Darth Vader". Uh, yeah, by the third movie and four years into the story.

Han is an appalling fucking mechanic, and Chewie hasn't ever been shown to be a decent pilot. Lando Calrissian took first pilot helm of the Millenium Falcon at the Battle of Endor, if Chewie was such an exceptional pilot who knew the MF why didn't he fight in space above Endor?

Han is seen in that scene both needing help from a near total stranger, is also informed he hasn't even standardised his computers, and is actively cannibalizing some parts of his vessel in order to repair others, and ontop of all that purposefully annoying and distracting Leia from fixing his ship for him.

Is Leia a Mary Sue simply because she seems to know more about fixing starships than Han?

The Millenium Falcon is a metaphor for Han. Unreliable, shambolic, but manages to perform under pressure. A rogue within and without. The Millenium Falcon represents Han's character flaws coming back to bite him in the arse ... but also their capacity for redemption and self-sufficiency.

Whereas Rey actually has reasons why she understands machines... Han is repeatedly shown in the original trilogy to be terrible at keeping his machines in proper working order. Almost with cataclysmic results as to his chronically putting off necessary repairs and working on his vessel, until suddenly he needs to get out of dodge.

The Millenium Falcon is the foil to Han Solo's recklessness, not a testament to his skill ofkeeping it together because repeatedly he relies on other people to do that for him.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Can people please outline this argument for me?

It didn't really come to the forefront until the tail end of the Force Awakens, but by the time the film ended she'd become a fairly paint by numbers fanfic OC. I mean let's outline her character for a minute.

For undisclosed reasons, she was left by her (almost certianly important) family in a cutthroat town where she had to scavenge parts to survive. The work was hard, the food in short supply, but despite growing up in a hive of scum and villainy, she kept her moral compass and would sooner go hungry than turn over a droid she just met. She's a talented scrapper, a capable mechanic. She quickly becomes a pilot on par with Lando (Return of the Jedi), Han, Chewie, and Leia almost immediately become fond of her, oh and she isn't just Force Sensitive, but insanely powerful and gifted in the Force (to the degree that the antagonist - also noted to be insanely powerful in the Force and trained in its use - found her countering and overpowering his force abilities despite the fact that she at the time wasn't even aware that she was Force Sensitive). Oh, and she ends up in possession of Anakin's Lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon, and as Chewie's apparent new BFF.

Now I know the inclination to take these point by point, but it's not that any one of them is a red flag, it's the accumulation of them. Strong in the Force? Fair game. Moral Compass in a hive of scum and villainy? Not the most original archetype but it's a well loved one for good reason. Great pilot? Par for the course, really...although the execution left much to be desired. Strong Force Sensitive who overpowers the not-Sith in the first movie, inherits the Falcon, is chosen by Anakin's lightsaber, apparently gets Chewie as a sidekick, has mysterious but seemingly significant parentage, is a good to great mechanic, shows exceptional piloting ability with a notoriously finicky ship she'd never handled...? It piles up and if nothing else it shows surprising blindness to "Bad OC" habits.

Asita:

Now I know the inclination to take these point by point, but it's not that any one of them is a red flag, it's the accumulation of them. Strong in the Force? Fair game. Moral Compass in a hive of scum and villainy? Not the most original archetype but it's a well loved one for good reason. Great pilot? Par for the course, really...although the execution left much to be desired. Strong Force Sensitive who overpowers the not-Sith in the first movie, inherits the Falcon, is chosen by Anakin's lightsaber, apparently gets Chewie as a sidekick, has mysterious but seemingly significant parentage, is a good to great mechanic, shows exceptional piloting ability with a notoriously finicky ship she'd never handled...? It piles up and if nothing else it shows surprising blindness to "Bad OC" habits.

But none of these traits are exclusive to Rey. Anakin, great mechanic, strong in the force, a phenomenal pilot, and a strong moral code in a wretched hive of scum and villainy. The most annoying thing is how repetitive it is, but it's not the Wesley Crusher of Star Trek.

Heaven forbid if we had a Jedi who used the force to protect medical problems in surgery and didn't want to betray that Obi sense of deception, trickery and nonviolent resistance. Maybe actually evolve the moral compass beyond having the capacity to kill for #suspense. Something that evolved the idea beyond waving a laser deathstick at people with pithy little 2c diatribes of morality.

I'm tired of the repetitive, formulaic, retreaded ground. Less Mary Sue, more been there and done that.

From episode 4 we know blasters have a stun feature. How many Jedi use it? Precisely zero... even when they have the capacity to.

Asita:

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Can people please outline this argument for me?

It didn't really come to the forefront until the tail end of the Force Awakens, but by the time the film ended she'd become a fairly paint by numbers fanfic OC. I mean let's outline her character for a minute.

For undisclosed reasons, she was left by her (almost certianly important) family in a cutthroat town where she had to scavenge parts to survive. The work was hard, the food in short supply, but despite growing up in a hive of scum and villainy, she kept her moral compass and would sooner go hungry than turn over a droid she just met. She's a talented scrapper, a capable mechanic. She quickly becomes a pilot on par with Lando (Return of the Jedi), Han, Chewie, and Leia almost immediately become fond of her, oh and she isn't just Force Sensitive, but insanely powerful and gifted in the Force (to the degree that the antagonist - also noted to be insanely powerful in the Force and trained in its use - found her countering and overpowering his force abilities despite the fact that she at the time wasn't even aware that she was Force Sensitive). Oh, and she ends up in possession of Anakin's Lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon, and as Chewie's apparent new BFF.

Now I know the inclination to take these point by point, but it's not that any one of them is a red flag, it's the accumulation of them. Strong in the Force? Fair game. Moral Compass in a hive of scum and villainy? Not the most original archetype but it's a well loved one for good reason. Great pilot? Par for the course, really...although the execution left much to be desired. Strong Force Sensitive who overpowers the not-Sith in the first movie, inherits the Falcon, is chosen by Anakin's lightsaber, apparently gets Chewie as a sidekick, has mysterious but seemingly significant parentage, is a good to great mechanic, shows exceptional piloting ability with a notoriously finicky ship she'd never handled...? It piles up and if nothing else it shows surprising blindness to "Bad OC" habits.

Hell, the crux of the 'Mary Sue' isn't the list of events pertaining to the character, but the execution and presentation of said events. A Mary Sue is a character that is ineptly written as a whole, while the traits themselves are thoughtless imitations/poor executions of tropes and archetypes, that lack the understanding of why and how they work/are effective.

It's why so many badly written/executed characters come across like a Sue. Take Rey for example, her Sueness comes from a culmination of small things and decisions on the creators part, most of which feels like they were changes made to scenes during filming to accomodate a certain tone(behaviour, dialogue) or to achieve certain visuals.

They didn't give her force powers because the plot said she's so strong, they gave her force powers 'cause people know when you do the hand thing/say words while giving shifty eyes to a stormtrooper the force thing happens and the crowd cheers because they got to see a thing they know about Star Wars. It wasn't about in universe justification or narrative, but about eliciting a base response from the viewers.

This is also the reason why on the surface the complaint can be applied to basic heroic archetypes, like Luke. If you treat it like a checklist, then yeah, a lot of things seem to fit, but that's dishonestly twisting the argument into something it never was. Mary Sue is a criticism not of tropes, but their execution.

Also, uh spoilers,

Which is, uh. Yeah.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

... you've seen Empire Strikes Back right?

You've seen RotJ?

The movie set 4 years since the beginning of Luke's training? Yeah, loved it.
What you haven't seen, yet here you are defending, is The Last Jedi, which picks up seconds after the ending of The Force Awakens. Rey has had mere hours of knockabout practice and she's as good as the dude that defeated Vader after a few years' specialized tutoring. Uh-huh.

And say what you will about Han and Chewie and the state of the Falcon, I don't believe for a second that some lonely self-taught scavenger from a desert planet who's never been onboard an actual flying ship would figure out the Falcon in minutes and have the people who have been professionally manning it for decades at her mercy.

She's a Mary Sue. She's more tolerable in The Last Jedi because she doesn't have much left to best, but she's still a bad fanfic.

Johnny Novgorod:

The movie set 4 years since the beginning of Luke's training? Yeah, loved it.
What you haven't seen, yet here you are defending, is The Last Jedi, which picks up seconds after the ending of The Force Awakens. Rey has had mere hours of knockabout practice and she's as good as the dude that defeated Vader after a few years' specialized tutoring. Uh-huh.

What? An aging hermit roughing it in the middle of nowhere!? You don't say! I mean it's not like the show isn't populated with young fighters overthrowing their older peers...

And say what you will about Han and Chewie and the state of the Falcon, I don't believe for a second that some lonely self-taught scavenger from a desert planet who's never been onboard an actual flying ship would figure out the Falcon in minutes and have the people who have been professionally manning it for decades at her mercy.

What? As opposed to a princess knowing how to fix starship drives?

I don't believe for a second space, much less interstellar travel, will be ever so easy that a novice with a blowtorch-spot welder looking thing means the difference between being stranded somewhere and moving FTL... thank fuck I'm watching a sci-fi fantasy story with MAGICAL MONKS.

She's a Mary Sue. She's more tolerable in The Last Jedi because she doesn't have much left to best, but she's still a bad fanfic.

You can level the same criticismx of half the protags. Maybe just admit that the idea of Star Wars is better than the reality of Star Wars. I like the movies. I found all of them enjoyable thus far.

Keyword. Enjoyable.

I mean you said Han was some phenomenal mechanic and Chewie some glorious pilot. I showed footage where that first premise was incredibly flawed ... so far all you've done is complain and assert a point, then done nothing to actually back it up.

I've seen all these movies barring the last one, and I cannot legitimately see a time when Han can be considered a decent mechanic. In fact there's plenty of times in the original trilogy I remember coming away with the exact opposite opinion.

That his mechanical skills were comic relief at best.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Asita:

Now I know the inclination to take these point by point, but it's not that any one of them is a red flag, it's the accumulation of them. Strong in the Force? Fair game. Moral Compass in a hive of scum and villainy? Not the most original archetype but it's a well loved one for good reason. Great pilot? Par for the course, really...although the execution left much to be desired. Strong Force Sensitive who overpowers the not-Sith in the first movie, inherits the Falcon, is chosen by Anakin's lightsaber, apparently gets Chewie as a sidekick, has mysterious but seemingly significant parentage, is a good to great mechanic, shows exceptional piloting ability with a notoriously finicky ship she'd never handled...? It piles up and if nothing else it shows surprising blindness to "Bad OC" habits.

But none of these traits are exclusive to Rey. Anakin, great mechanic, strong in the force, a phenomenal pilot, and a strong moral code in a wretched hive of scum and villainy. The most annoying thing is how repetitive it is, but it's not the Wesley Crusher of Star Trek.

No, she certainly isn't a Wesley Crusher, but Wesley Crusher was a particularly egregious example, considering that even Gene Wesley Roddenberry admitted that he was designed as a younger idealized version of himself. He was pretty much the poster child for canonical Mary Sues for a good long while, so saying a character isn't as bad as Wesley is like saying that something isn't much of a mountain because Everest is bigger.

That being said, it's worth noting that you're both exaggerating and ignoring the nuance with the comparison to Anakin. In Phantom Menace we establish that he's a great mechanic and excellent pilot, but his Force ability is only expressed in the piloting ability (and is suggested to be a 'tell' that someone is force sensitive). And his moral compass is questionable at best (yes, I know it's a deleted scene, but still, it speaks to how Anakin was written). Throughout the franchise he doesn't have any grand acts of kindness or show any particular charity, and by Attack of the Clones he's...kinda a self-important asshole. Even in the first movie he's more driven to be a Jedi by the thrill of adventure than any particular moral calling.

Compare this to Rey, for whom the first hint that she is Force Sensitive is through her unconscious use of psychometry (the vision from grabbing the lightsaber), and reflecting the mind probe of Kylo Ren (himself a powerful Force user and trained in the art) back at him, followed by her conscious use of the Mind Trick and telekinesis just a few minutes later. That is a huge difference in execution.

I can't help but also notice that you ignored the crux of my point that it was the how the details piled up that was the problem. Take a few of them and they don't sound so bad, but it's when you go "she's an extremely powerful force sensitive who can use advanced force abilities without training, and an expert mechanic, and capable of expertly piloting the Falcon without a copilot, and upwards of proficient with a lightsaber the first time she uses it, and Han and Leia very nearly take on parental substitute roles, and Chewie becomes her sidekick, and she inherits the Falcon, and she inherits Anakin's lightsaber..." you start to hit issues.

Ask yourself this, do you think this is a character that would pass muster in a Star Wars RP or fanfic? In most cases the answer would be a resound "no" because it's too good - if not exceptional - at too many things too early in the story and has too many ties to the original cast. Simply taking away the Falcon, Chewie and Anakin's lightsaber would represent a significant improvement. Take away those and the instinctive use of active Force Powers (Telekinesis, Mind Trick, turn the Mind Probe reflection into simply blocking it (still use it to imply she's force sensitive, just with a bit more tact)) and I doubt you would have ever heard "Rey" and "Mary Sue" in the same sentence.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

But none of these traits are exclusive to Rey. Anakin, great mechanic, strong in the force, a phenomenal pilot, and a strong moral code in a wretched hive of scum and villainy. The most annoying thing is how repetitive it is, but it's not the Wesley Crusher of Star Trek.

Though Anakin is also widely regarded as one of the worst things about a series of three terrible films, very nearly as bad as Jar-Jar.

Asita:

No, she certainly isn't a Wesley Crusher, but Wesley Crusher was a particularly egregious example, considering that even Gene Wesley Roddenberry admitted that he was designed as a younger idealized version of himself. He was pretty much the poster child for canonical Mary Sues for a good long while, so saying a character isn't as bad as Wesley is like saying that something isn't much of a mountain because Everest is bigger.

That being said, it's worth noting that you're both exaggerating and ignoring the nuance with the comparison to Anakin. In Phantom Menace we establish that he's a great mechanic and excellent pilot, but his Force ability is only expressed in the piloting ability (and is suggested to be a 'tell' that someone is force sensitive). And his moral compass is questionable at best (yes, I know it's a deleted scene, but still, it speaks to how Anakin was written). Throughout the franchise he doesn't have any grand acts of kindness or show any particular charity, and by Attack of the Clones he's...kinda a self-important asshole. Even in the first movie he's more driven to be a Jedi by the thrill of adventure than any particular moral calling.

Compare this to Rey, for whom the first hint that she is Force Sensitive is through her unconscious use of psychometry (the vision from grabbing the lightsaber), and reflecting the mind probe of Kylo Ren (himself a powerful Force user and trained in the art) back at him, followed by her conscious use of the Mind Trick and telekinesis just a few minutes later. That is a huge difference in execution.

I can't help but also notice that you ignored the crux of my point that it was the how the details piled up that was the problem. Take a few of them and they don't sound so bad, but it's when you go "she's an extremely powerful force sensitive who can use advanced force abilities without training, and an expert mechanic, and capable of expertly piloting the Falcon without a copilot, and upwards of proficient with a lightsaber the first time she uses it, and Han and Leia very nearly take on parental substitute roles, and Chewie becomes her sidekick, and she inherits the Falcon, and she inherits Anakin's lightsaber..." you start to hit issues.

Ask yourself this, do you think this is a character that would pass muster in a Star Wars RP or fanfic? In most cases the answer would be a resound "no" because it's too good - if not exceptional - at too many things too early in the story and has too many ties to the original cast. Simply taking away the Falcon, Chewie and Anakin's lightsaber would represent a significant improvement. Take away those and the instinctive use of active Force Powers (Telekinesis, Mind Trick, turn the Mind Probe reflection into simply blocking it (still use it to imply she's force sensitive, just with a bit more tact)) and I doubt you would have ever heard "Rey" and "Mary Sue" in the same sentence.

Possibly? To outline my point before given I reread it and I wasn't clear, I consider Anakin way worse. The thing is my knowledge of Star Wars extends to the movies, somr of the board and video games. All I have is to compare it to the various protsgs as displayed in the films. I don't read fanfic or the expanded universe stuff.

Frankly I think lightsabers are shit, I'm all about the blasters and vehicles. You show me a line up of unactivated lightsabers, I'll struggle identifying who they belong to. You show me some of the blasters and I'll be like; "Biker guy on Endor. Totally used a pistol like that!" To me the blasters actually have character because they're mash ups of WW2 and early Cold War guns reputposed with sci-fi qualities. So they stick out in your brain.

Now that I've outlined my general stance on how familiar I am of anything SW (being the movies and some games) ... I don't like Rey as s character. But it's because I'm kind of fucking annoyed how jedi seem to dominate this awesome sci-fi fantasy landscape that is painted.

In fact I think many people who love Star Wars would agree all the real Jedi-ish stuff that comes up in the original trilogy isn't why you watch Star Wars. Would you have the same problems if Rey wasn't some jedi to be and used a blaster 90% of the time? Because I would be fine with that.

Frankly the whole Force thing of Star Wars as a literary device for the narration of greater concepts of good and evil in traditional storytelling is childish and threadbare. After all... not the first sci-fi setting to encompass ideas of glorified psychokinesis and other forms of mind-powers over material forces ...

To best illustrate why this matters... the average person like me isn't going to see Rey like a Mary Sue. Wesley Crusher was annoying to anyone with a passing familiarity with TNG, but given what other protags I've seen I can't compare.

Just as I was illustrating to another person above with original (remaster) footage... Han isn't a good mechanic. His mechanical abilities as per commonly accessible material is solidly comic relief. The Falcon-Han symbiosis is the hypothetical bad cop-bad cop partnership played up for laughs. As darker as TESB is, the Falcon-Han relationship is a much needed comic act.

Speaking as someone that us liable to be like those 95% of crowds that will see it solely for being SW without any grand universal knowledge of the setting. I don't see a Mary Sue, because I think people play up the idea that using a lightsabre is hard.

Luke beats Darth Vader with his through brute force despite legitimately only training for a few years. Anakin eventually defeats Dooku despite supposedly being lousy at his lightsabre training.

Luke is blocking droid simulated bolts blind folded within days. There isn't a consistent baseline idea of skill. If there is, please show me in the movies. One poster's arguments is Chewie is a great pilot! Okay, where? Han is a phenomenal mechanic! Um... no... a no-really, actual royalty, princess seems to actually know how to fix Han's ship more than Han does.

In this universe where being the Star-Christ at 9 years old and building artificial intelligences and pod-racing despite underdeveloped spatial awareness and thr limited physical force pressures a child can reasonably withstand... But then again, Star Wars isn't exactly science-fiction... it's fantasy with lasers.

Does Rey seem like a wunderkind? Yeah, I'll grant that... but then again I would have been fine with a Force-sensitive youth that uses Obi-style deception, trickery, stealth, street smart mechanical engineering and manipulation to get the job done.

Let's say if Rey used her Force-sensitivity to instead of fight with a lightsaber, but use it like Jackie Chan uses the environments in his fight choreography...? Would you have a problem of this Force sensitive rogue that puts their faith in their blaster and merely using their lightsaber as a tool rather than a weapon? Because I would be more than happy seeing a Force-sensitive rogue and scavenger that doesn't look like your average Jedi, but rather emulates the scrappy barbarism of their youth.

But I don't see that as a victim of being a Mary Sue, but bad characterization. Like instead of a lightsaber duel... what if she force-pushed a mound of blade heated rock shards into Kylo's face and chest and seemingly fends off his advances like that? Also suit the theme of the distortion of the flesh mirroring the darkness within the soul.

Such would be a cooler character. No questions (at least in my opinion) ... but would that be enough to escape the Mary Sue indictment inspite of its own lore?

It's what I would do with a big laser deathstick and the ability to move stuff with my brain. Why fight fair when you have infinitely more ways to not fight fair ...?

Moreover, that would have been cool. Because you have Kylo that was seemingly classically tutored, and some force-sensitive punk of whom he wouldn't be used to fighting fighting dirty and getting the better of him. Not what looks like any other conventional duel. So you have a twisted idea of pride begetting failure, the class differences between a student and some street smart punk, and it would have actually shown why it's important to use a laser deathstick better.

But you'll forgive me if I don't chalk that up to being a Mary Sue ... I chalk that up to simply bad writing.

Johnny Novgorod:

Cold Shiny:
Beware incoming "Rey is a mary sue" arguments.

It's not as egregious in this movie, fortunately, though...

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Good to hear. I was hoping they explain whether they she received force training as a kid, which would be a decent save in my book. Haven't seen the movie yet, ofc., but if they resolved it in a different way, and it works, then...

Asita:
For undisclosed reasons, she was left by her (almost certianly important) family in a cutthroat town where she had to scavenge parts to survive. The work was hard, the food in short supply, but despite growing up in a hive of scum and villainy, she kept her moral compass and would sooner go hungry than turn over a droid she just met. She's a talented scrapper, a capable mechanic. She quickly becomes a pilot on par with Lando (Return of the Jedi), Han, Chewie, and Leia almost immediately become fond of her, oh and she isn't just Force Sensitive, but insanely powerful and gifted in the Force (to the degree that the antagonist - also noted to be insanely powerful in the Force and trained in its use - found her countering and overpowering his force abilities despite the fact that she at the time wasn't even aware that she was Force Sensitive). Oh, and she ends up in possession of Anakin's Lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon, and as Chewie's apparent new BFF.

Yeah, they buttered that toast a tad too thick for my taste. It's not even the overcompetence, but the fact that she gets so well with everyone so fast, what rubbed me the wrong way. I'd like more bickering.

Also, the part just before the ending, with the infamous hug she received from Leia, reminded me, strangely enough, about Man of Steel critique i've heard one day... So Han dies, probably the most dramatic moment in entire movie, and then Rey gets rewarded with almost everything that was dear to him.

infohippie:
Though Anakin is also widely regarded as one of the worst things about a series of three terrible films, very nearly as bad as Jar-Jar.

Which is too bad in this context, because Ridley >>> Christiansen.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
I don't believe for a second space, much less interstellar travel, will be ever so easy that a novice with a blowtorch-spot welder looking thing means the difference between being stranded somewhere and moving FTL... thank fuck I'm watching a sci-fi fantasy story with MAGICAL MONKS.

Yet here you are, looking for technicisms to justify the mechanical proficiency of a fictional character against another fictional character. The fact remains that introducing a brand new YA character who is immediately better at everything than all of the established characters is a fanfic move. Imagine Lord of the Rings Episode IV introducing a random young orphan from the desert who has taught herself to be a better swordsman than Aragorn ("Hey you're pretty good at this, have my kingdom"), a better magician than Gandalf (Let's say his staff "chooses" her or something) and teaches a lesson in humility to Sam. You can scrounge up every little technicism to explain to me how this could possibly be feasible... or just admit the writers are a bit desperate to get you to worship such an awesome character.

I just wish both the warring factions in Star Wars are on equal footing rather than the one sided big and powerful Empire vs underdog and persistent Rebellion.

I want it to be the Big and Powerful Republic and Jedi Order vs Big and Powerful Empire and the Sith Order. Like how it is for The Old Republic.

Samtemdo8:
I just wish both the warring factions in Star Wars are on equal footing rather than the one sided big and powerful Empire vs underdog and persistent Rebellion.

I want it to be the Big and Powerful Republic and Jedi Order vs Big and Powerful Empire and the Sith Order. Like how it is for The Old Republic.

In the comic series called Legacy, there was a war between a split side of the Imperial Empire between the Sith and the defector Emperor Fel. Jedi still existed, but very few because of another purge. Although the Imperial knights for Emperor Fel were Force users and used lightsabers.

But yeah, I dig the Old Republic era despite my underwhelming thoughts on the books. (Well, okay, I love the Darth Bane trilogy and Annihilation as well as Knights of the Old Republic comic run).

Asita:

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Can people please outline this argument for me?

It didn't really come to the forefront until the tail end of the Force Awakens, but by the time the film ended she'd become a fairly paint by numbers fanfic OC. I mean let's outline her character for a minute.

For undisclosed reasons, she was left by her (almost certianly important) family in a cutthroat town where she had to scavenge parts to survive. The work was hard, the food in short supply, but despite growing up in a hive of scum and villainy, she kept her moral compass and would sooner go hungry than turn over a droid she just met. She's a talented scrapper, a capable mechanic. She quickly becomes a pilot on par with Lando (Return of the Jedi), Han, Chewie, and Leia almost immediately become fond of her, oh and she isn't just Force Sensitive, but insanely powerful and gifted in the Force (to the degree that the antagonist - also noted to be insanely powerful in the Force and trained in its use - found her countering and overpowering his force abilities despite the fact that she at the time wasn't even aware that she was Force Sensitive). Oh, and she ends up in possession of Anakin's Lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon, and as Chewie's apparent new BFF.

Now I know the inclination to take these point by point, but it's not that any one of them is a red flag, it's the accumulation of them. Strong in the Force? Fair game. Moral Compass in a hive of scum and villainy? Not the most original archetype but it's a well loved one for good reason. Great pilot? Par for the course, really...although the execution left much to be desired. Strong Force Sensitive who overpowers the not-Sith in the first movie, inherits the Falcon, is chosen by Anakin's lightsaber, apparently gets Chewie as a sidekick, has mysterious but seemingly significant parentage, is a good to great mechanic, shows exceptional piloting ability with a notoriously finicky ship she'd never handled...? It piles up and if nothing else it shows surprising blindness to "Bad OC" habits.

Plus, Rey is just irritating, and not in an endearing way like Luke was. We're willing to put up with all the stupid shit in Luke's story arc because there's just enough character in the writing to make him likeable. Rey has essentially no character traits other than competence, so when she does some bullshit, the audience does not think "Oh wow, she's so cool", they think "well, that's some bullshit".

There's also the dimension of whether the writer appears to have any interest in the suspension of your disbelief, and how it meshes with the tone of the work as a whole. The original trilogy were and are able to get people to accept a lot of stupid shit because they are a particular kind of campy pantomime that the audience recognises as such. The recent films, on the other hand, are modern action-adventure films that appear to want the audience to treat them with a degree of seriousness.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Can people please outline this argument for me?

A female character was competent.

Johnny Novgorod:

Yet here you are, looking for technicisms to justify the mechanical proficiency of a fictional character against another fictional character. The fact remains that introducing a brand new YA character who is immediately better at everything than all of the established characters is a fanfic move. Imagine Lord of the Rings Episode IV introducing a random young orphan from the desert who has taught herself to be a better swordsman than Aragorn ("Hey you're pretty good at this, have my kingdom"), a better magician than Gandalf (Let's say his staff "chooses" her or something) and teaches a lesson in humility to Sam. You can scrounge up every little technicism to explain to me how this could possibly be feasible... or just admit the writers are a bit desperate to get you to worship such an awesome character.

Looking for technicalities?

I'm sorry if I walked away with different impressions of primary reference materials. I mean you've yet to show me one scene where Han's supposedly being techno-savant has come into play. Everytime I've seen Han try to be a mechanic it's a comic act. Also, Aragorn is kind of a dick in the books; "Check out my magical sword. Look, don't touch. Grrrr." Hell, Aragorn in the books isn't all that comparable to other heroes in the tale.

Why the fuck are you comparing Rey to LotR ... maybe we watched different movies and read different books, but all the POVs from the LotR books are total Mary Sues, and Aragorn and Gandalf are the Mary Sue-ist of the bunch. Sorry, you're telling me to think Rey is more comparatively wunderkind to Gandalf and Aragorn? Have you actually read the books?

Gandalf isn't even shy about it. "I'm more badass than anything you'll meet, save for being brought before the seat of the Dark Lord..." (paraphrasing, but not all that much). As for Aragorn, don't even fucking start. The guy is a comparative giant. Lived three times longer than mortal men, in the books he's convinced he'll just simply take the throne of Gondor and Arnor as if taking candy from a baby because Elrond makes it a part of his condition to be eligible to wed Arwen.

In the books, the only major moral choice he faces is; "Do I help Frodo, or do I just kick in some doors at Minas Tirith because thrones are awesome? Questions--questions--..."

The books aren't shy about the nature of fate (indeed fate is everything) and that fate of Elendil's heir (not Isildur, Elendil... Isildur is like vanilla Elendil, kind of the son no one really wants when compared to his father) is pretty fucking "anything you can do..." territory.

Yeah, no. It's apples and oranges.

I've always found the argument around Rey to be strange.

Some people seem to take it as some political disagreement to accept that a horribly written character is horribly written.

Obviously she's absurdly Mary Sue, basically to the point of being a parody of it.

But, I guess accepting that a specific female character was poorly written is somehow a condemnation of half of the gender divide.

Anyway. Overall, meh.
Star wars has really lost the appeal since Disney took over, it really doesn't feel like it anything other than a cynical design-by-committee cash-in.

Johnny Novgorod:

And say what you will about Han and Chewie and the state of the Falcon, I don't believe for a second that some lonely self-taught scavenger from a desert planet who's never been onboard an actual flying ship would figure out the Falcon in minutes and have the people who have been professionally manning it for decades at her mercy.

She's not self-taught, she was abandoned to Unkar Platt and helped him scavenge ships. She has been on starships before, just never off planet. When she and Finn bump into each other after shooting down the Tie Fighters, she's babbling saying that she'd flown ships before but never anything offplanet. So we can assume, given that she works for Platt, that at some point she helped him scavenge and modify parts of the Falcon. She shows familiarity with the ship and how long it has been since it flew, so she's been on it before, and perhapes even flew it at some point while Platt owned it.

Johnny Novgorod:
Imagine Lord of the Rings Episode IV

There'd already be problems considering that evil never truly rose again after the end of that Age....

introducing a random young orphan from the desert who has taught herself to be a better swordsman than Aragorn ("Hey you're pretty good at this, have my kingdom"),ote]

In other words, a standard elf in Middle Earth :p

Seriously, I don't know if you read Tolkien, but he jerked off the elven race to the point of eyeball rolling. They are literally the Better Than Everyone race.

a better magician than Gandalf

Unlikely unless she's one of the Maiar anyway.

[quote] or just admit the writers are a bit desperate to get you to worship such an awesome character.

I don't think it was deliberate so much as thoughtless.

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