A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

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I loved it. Fuck what anyone else says, it was a damn fine movie and I'm looking forward to this trilogy's conclusion. Empire was still the best, but this trilogy's a damn sight better than the prequels so far, and not in the "well anything's better than that shite." Fite me.

So, the Internet's kind of self-imploded around TLJ. Think I'll stay clear this time.

That said, the film is...okay, but a different sort of "okay" from TFA. TFA was okay in the sense that it was competently written and presented, but didn't do anything particuarly interesting. TLJ is okay in the sense that it's got higher highs than TFA, but also lower lows. This is a very flawed film, but has moments of brilliance in it as well. That said, I think I have to rate TFA higher. TLJ seems to get worse the more I think about it, while with TFA, my view became a bit more charitable over time. Right now, it's my #6 Star Wars film with TFA being #5, but those two could switch over time, while everything else I don't see shifting anytime soon.

Question how did Han and Finn jump with the falcon into atmosphere if it is now established that real-space effect objects in hyperspace? Shouldn't they be burnt up or worse? Not to mention the awesome capabilities of having ftl cannons and how that would shit upon any fleet.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

But I don't buy the idea of needing to use the force to actually treat a lightsaber as a weapon.

The reason you need the force to use a lightsaber as a weapon is because otherwise you'd be an absolute idiot to bring a sword to a gunfight!

McMarbles:

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Can people please outline this argument for me?

A female character was competent.

This is simply not true, and is basically an ad hominem attack on anybody claiming that Rey is a sue.

There are many female characters who are competent but aren't mary sues. Nobody calls Mikasa from Attack on Titan a sue and she's basically Death on two legs. Nobody says Scully from X-files is one either, or Olivia Dunham from Fringe, or the rabbit from Zootopia, or tons of other competent well written characters. On the other hand there are a huge amount of male characters that get accused of being sues: Wesley Crusher from Star Trek, Kirito from Sword Art Online, Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars, Sherlock Holmes, Percy Jackson, Eragon fricking Shadeslayer from the Inheritance Cycle books.

If female characters get accused of it more often (which I'm not convinced of) it's only because the writers in general don't seem as comfortable portraying females as actual flawed human beings. They get so focused on making a strong female character that they make them virtually infallable, never needing to struggle or improve, maybe with couple Not Actually Flaws thrown in if you're lucky. Terry Pratchet was TERRIBLE for that. His male protagonists range from bumbling oafs, to sniveling cowards, to broken down alcoholics, and more. But his females are all basically strong, independant, always know better than everybody else, maybe a bit strict.

To put my observation in D&D terms, this push for Jedi populism seems to be a bunch of people who want the space wizard powers without the restrictions of the class or need to bother with all that Jedi "religion" telling you you can't do the stuff you want to do without falling to the dark side, but instead you can just follow your heart: "Why can't I be a swashbuckling Han-type AND use a cool laser sword?"

I've never really enjoyed the morality in Star Wars, but it seems hypocritical to see a lot of the people who praise the OT for being straightforward monomyth fairytales now jacking off the idea the franchise benefits from shades-of-gray, meta-analysis, and deconstruction.

It was a "fun" and "entertaining" movie, I'll definitely say that. I felt like it was worth going out to see it in a movie theater. That said, I do have a number of issues with the movie.

Apparently someone else decided to drop a spoiler bomb, for out of courtesy I'll still put mine in a box.

Can't watch it. I don't know why they don't show the movie in multiple auditoriums if all the seats are reserved, and then limit the number of showings of less popular movies. Will probably go on Tuesday, when tickets are usually discounted. My expectations are kind of low, to be honest. I don't like Kathleen Kennedy.

RJ 17:
It was a "fun" and "entertaining" movie, I'll definitely say that. I felt like it was worth going out to see it in a movie theater. That said, I do have a number of issues with the movie.

Apparently someone else decided to drop a spoiler bomb, for out of courtesy I'll still put mine in a box.

ok, i'll go into spoiler territory too for that

But, i really enjoyed the movie. probably in my top 4 out of 9 star wars.

Johnny Novgorod:

Cold Shiny:
Beware incoming "Rey is a mary sue" arguments.

It's not as egregious in this movie, fortunately, though...

Other than that they toned down the Mary Sue thing.

Right, I'm just going to copy-paste my post from the WW because I can't be arsed to rewrite it all over again:

Neverhoodian:
Sheesh, what a bunch of jaded cynics we have in here. I just got back from the theater, and I think The Last Jedi is great. It doesn't reach Rogue One levels of excellence and it certainly won't dethrone Empire as my favorite Star Wars film, but it has enough going for it to give it a respectable position in the pantheon for me.

I think part of the backlash in some circles can be chalked up to preconceived notions that turned out to be wrong...gloriously wrong in some cases. I'm not going to mention particulars here, but let's just say there's lots of butthurt fans right now that their precious character theories have been brutually eviscerated...and their tears are delicious.

Anyway, here's my initial impressions (spoilers follow, ye have been warned):


iamzim101:
Question how did Han and Finn jump with the falcon into atmosphere if it is now established that real-space effect objects in hyperspace? Shouldn't they be burnt up or worse? Not to mention the awesome capabilities of having ftl cannons and how that would shit upon any fleet.

IIRC Han says of the shield that it blocks anything slower than light speed, so FTL would bypass it, physical or not.

And yeah, this movie was fantastic. Not perfect, but it's probably my new favorite Star Wars movie. Seeing people say it's "bad writing" feels like they're trying to cover their subjective-as-fuck dislike for the direction of the story with something more concrete so they don't come off as raging fanboys/girls. It wasn't jumping around like crazy, I had no trouble following it at all; I can recall pretty much everything about it and so far I've only seen it once. If you don't like it, fine, but I really don't believe anyone who tries to blame the pacing.

Keeping thing's kosher. :^)

cathou:

ok, i'll go into spoiler territory too for that

But, i really enjoyed the movie. probably in my top 4 out of 9 star wars.

Neverhoodian:
Right, I'm just going to copy-paste my post from the WW because I can't be arsed to rewrite it all over again:

Neverhoodian:
Sheesh, what a bunch of jaded cynics we have in here. I just got back from the theater, and I think The Last Jedi is great. It doesn't reach Rogue One levels of excellence and it certainly won't dethrone Empire as my favorite Star Wars film, but it has enough going for it to give it a respectable position in the pantheon for me.

I think part of the backlash in some circles can be chalked up to preconceived notions that turned out to be wrong...gloriously wrong in some cases. I'm not going to mention particulars here, but let's just say there's lots of butthurt fans right now that their precious character theories have been brutually eviscerated...and their tears are delicious.

Anyway, here's my initial impressions (spoilers follow, ye have been warned):


I've been thinking a lot on THAT scene with Leia, and were I given the chance to redo it, I would

Gordon_4:

Neverhoodian:
Right, I'm just going to copy-paste my post from the WW because I can't be arsed to rewrite it all over again:

Neverhoodian:
Sheesh, what a bunch of jaded cynics we have in here. I just got back from the theater, and I think The Last Jedi is great. It doesn't reach Rogue One levels of excellence and it certainly won't dethrone Empire as my favorite Star Wars film, but it has enough going for it to give it a respectable position in the pantheon for me.

I think part of the backlash in some circles can be chalked up to preconceived notions that turned out to be wrong...gloriously wrong in some cases. I'm not going to mention particulars here, but let's just say there's lots of butthurt fans right now that their precious character theories have been brutually eviscerated...and their tears are delicious.

Anyway, here's my initial impressions (spoilers follow, ye have been warned):


I've been thinking a lot on THAT scene with Leia, and were I given the chance to redo it, I would

That still begs a question, though...

Well, I saw it this morning, and I quite enjoyed it. Probably one of my favourite Star Wars movies too, though that isn't exactly a hard thing to do. I enjoyed quite a lot of it (despite the presence of the Porgs), mostly the space battles (which felt nice and meaty) and the combat (FINALLY MOOKS THAT CAN ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING), but also a lot of the force stuff within it,

That said, I do have a criticism about the movie:

Neverhoodian:

RJ 17:

Gordon_4:

Neverhoodian:
Right, I'm just going to copy-paste my post from the WW because I can't be arsed to rewrite it all over again:

I've been thinking a lot on THAT scene with Leia, and were I given the chance to redo it, I would

That still begs a question, though...

I admit it isn't a perfect get out of nit-pick free card but I feel that being able to do it at the cost of her life would sit better with an audience for such a spur of the moment thing. Like maybe she's felt the Force her whole life (which some lines in ROTJ do bear out) but never used it because it never felt like the right moment. Then there's a split second where it all comes home to roost: the choice is everyone, or her. So she just digs deep and draws on everything she knows: every snippet of rumour, every half understood conversation with Luke, with her son and every instinct she's ever ignored and channels the power of her father and the will of her mother in one glorious moment.

.......fuck me I went a little overboard there didn't I?

McMarbles:
A female character was competent.

That implies a presence of character.

I would say its a pretty solid film. I believe its the best so far out of the newer 3 (Force Awakens, Rogue One and this). Don't think it reached any lofty heights; it was still pretty derivative in places, had a few inconsistencies and there was a bit too much in terms of forced humour/tonal shifts. I'd say a 7/10.

Ok let me get a summary of my thoughts out the way and non spoilerery stuff. I thought it was really good. But it definately had it's issues and so far it's the weakest out the 3 new films. The acting is mostly great with the exception of one person in particular. The journey's (literal and emotional) the characters go through are also mostly great. I cried once... and also every time Leia was on screen. Some characters are wasted with one being my all time most hated Star Wars character. Sorry Jar Jar Binks, you've somehow been topped. And something I can't believe I'm about to say but the music was merely functional. While the music in TFA and RO wasn't the best it was still awesome but here it's not. Apart from reused or reworked tracks I can't think of a single piece that stood out.

Spoilers below.

Neverhoodian:

So this is the place to talked well typed our opinion of the film eh?

For me it was good.

Overall it was pretty bad.

Superior to the soggy biscuit that was Rogue One, and vastly superior to the Ed Wood level shenanigans in the prequels, but a seriously problematic movie that half derails the entire tentpole trilogy.

Nerds.

Looks at the Rotten Tomatoes "Critic's" Score

Looks at the audience score.

/FacePalm

I call it IGN syndrome.

Just got back from seeing. What an absolute garbage fire of a shit movie. I mean fuck me, I knew it was going to be bad, but worse than Clone Wars bad?! Worse than Force Awakens bad?!

I'm looking back at the Prequel trilogy going 'Holy shit, a plot! A story broken up into a classic 3 act structure, and not just a bunch of randomly interchangeable scenes hacked together into a corpse in the editing room!'

When it wasn't lazily ripping off Empire, it was lazily ripping off Jedi.
Way to absolutely ruin Luke Skywalker. Way to turn one of the noblest heroes in modern culture into a whiny, unlikable old man who does nothing.

Also Rose McSpaceLady's 'Fight for those we love!' kiss scene is officially, legally, and morally the worst romantic line in a Star Wars movie. Congratz what's your face actress, you'll forever be remembered as out cheesing Sand is sandy and sand.

and at 2 and a half hours, I was really expecting you to tell a story or do something, Star Wars. You should feel ashamed Star Wars. Ashamed.

Excuse me, I have to go watch the Holiday special to try to get this terrible anti-Star Wars taste out of my mouth.

I enjoyed it at the time. I think, overall, that I still enjoyed it.

But I'm beginning to feel that the people who have a problem with Rey may have a point.

Callate:
I enjoyed it at the time. I think, overall, that I still enjoyed it.

But I'm beginning to feel that the people who have a problem with Rey may have a point.

In fairness, Star Wars is full of people who have no idea how military stuff works at all(or more accurately, the writers don't).

There's an episode of Clone Wars where a 10 year old with a blaster takes down a Republic Cruiser by shooting the reactor core a bunch of time, after knocking out the one guy standing watch down there. During a Red Alert of all things.

Nobody knew what Air Support was until around that time either(Force Awakens was the first film where someone thought of calling for an airstrike to help turn a battle).

And let's not forget the battle of Endor, where the Empires finest troops and the cream of their fleet was wiped out because they got too distracted by chasing ewoks around the forest that they forgot their main job was to GUARD A SINGLE DOOR for a few hours.

It was fine. Not as good as VII for several reasons but still enjoyable. Rian Johnson doesn't film an action scene very well (its all Greengrass shaky-cam and crappy looking because of it) but it at least had classic Star Wars stagefighting instead of the wire-fu flipouts of the prequels where idiots spend more time spinning and waving around lightsabers to look cool than they did actually fighting with them. Johnson doesn't have a good sense of appropriate comedic timing. Many of his jokes ruined a serious moment, or just fell flat to begin with... but he at least landed a couple (unlike the prequels.)

Honestly the biggest problem... reactionary. They (like idiots) listened to the fans. That will never result in a great movie. Nearly every "correction" to a perceived "problem" with episode 7 resulted in an episode 8 that could have been a lot better. The faction claiming "mary sue" about Rey led to an interesting development about her parents... but "giving in to the idiot fans on the mary sue issue" took far more of her screen time that would have just been better spent just developing her character. And for the rest of Ep. 8 "twists..." clearly chosen to go a different way than the popular theories out there on the internet... most of which really killed potentially cool storypoints. Who really was Snoke? Welp, fuck that... doesn't matter a tiny bit now. What's Luke gonna do? Apparently not much, or anything important that accomplishes anything. What are the ancient jedi teachings and how can they help? Well they can't, fuck the Jedi anyway... who needs them? Anything they built up in the superior episode 7 they threw out the door in 8 (with only Rey's parents being interesting) and just left the story a big blank "well, anything can happen now... try and make a theory out of THIS" slate. Well, theories and guesses keep interest going... and 8 didn't leave me particularly interested in seeing episode 9. Unlike 7, which made me want to see episode 8 the second the credits were rolling.

I was left with only 2 questions. Why didn't anything they set up in episode 7 matter, and why didn't Chewie just kill the unhappy porg and then feast on its delicious looking brother? Does cooked porg smell like skunk or something?

BloatedGuppy:
Overall it was pretty bad.

Superior to the soggy biscuit that was Rogue One, and vastly superior to the Ed Wood level shenanigans in the prequels, but a seriously problematic movie that half derails the entire tentpole trilogy.

It does feels like TFA set up a stage for 'something'. And then TLJ director took a piss on it, went 'taa-daa' some people laughed and cried 'great joke mate!'. Then Rian Johnson flipped J.J. Abrams, set the stage on fire and left with snark 'try to recover from that b#&ch' remark.

Oh, and since the mary sue thing derailed this thread for a while anyway...

Yes, Rey is super competent to a ridiculous degree and/or able to do things she shouldn't be able to... she's the HERO in a Campbell HERO'S JOURNEY. THEY ARE ALL that competent with plot armor.

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character. YES "chosen hero" storylines are camp and cliche... they are because THEY WERE SO POPULAR IT BECAME CLICHE. Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on. Nobody cared when it was a bunch of scientists with no prior "energy weapon" training never even accidentally crossing streams while shooting at the SAME GHOST. But apparently put a woman in the role... suddenly they're a 'mary sue.' And all the "well what about X guy, it was dumb and he was super competent" arguments... yeah, that's right. Easy to find the examples... after you need to defend yourself. Ultimately a hero's journey isn't good or bad because its protagonists are 'mary sues' or 'marty stus' or whatever. It actually all comes down to what they do with the character, genitals notwithstanding.

Kyrian007:
The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character.

No. Just no. Rey could be a male and the same problems would apply.

Kyrian007:
Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on.

Differences:

-Luke had time to train in the X-Wing, and was established to be a competent pilot and a good shot already, not to mention that he needs help getting to the exhaust port. Rey, on the other hand, flies the Millennium Falcon with no apparent experience (the novelization stated that she'd trained in a flight simulator, but the movie doesn't specify this).

-Luke didn't defeat Vader until his third film. Rey defeats Kylo Ren in their very first duel, despite the lack of any Force training.

Last Jedi doesn't help in this regard. Three years pass between New Hope and Empire, so Luke had time to train then, and then spent at least a few days with Yoda. Rey, on the other hand, goes straight to Ach-To, and is able to connect to the Force instantly. That said, the film does make me more sympathetic to Rey. I mean, despite all this, I like Rey as a character, in terms of her personality. Last Jedi does at least put her through some hurdles that she doesn't overcome, in that:

Kyrian007:
Oh, and since the mary sue thing derailed this thread for a while anyway...

Yes, Rey is super competent to a ridiculous degree and/or able to do things she shouldn't be able to... she's the HERO in a Campbell HERO'S JOURNEY. THEY ARE ALL that competent with plot armor.

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character. YES "chosen hero" storylines are camp and cliche... they are because THEY WERE SO POPULAR IT BECAME CLICHE. Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on. Nobody cared when it was a bunch of scientists with no prior "energy weapon" training never even accidentally crossing streams while shooting at the SAME GHOST. But apparently put a woman in the role... suddenly they're a 'mary sue.' And all the "well what about X guy, it was dumb and he was super competent" arguments... yeah, that's right. Easy to find the examples... after you need to defend yourself. Ultimately a hero's journey isn't good or bad because its protagonists are 'mary sues' or 'marty stus' or whatever. It actually all comes down to what they do with the character, genitals notwithstanding.

PsychedelicDiamond:
There's a lot of anger and negativity surrounding this movie so I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm gonna like it a lot.

Ditto. Any time any hardcore fanboy of anything starts crying about how they "ruined" something I know I'm probably in for fun. Might go see it twice, just for shiggles.

There are some seriously histrionic reviews in this here thread. Like, it's a movie series about laser swords and telepathic space monks, stop acting like Uwe Boll remade Citizen Kane or whatever.

Hawki:

Kyrian007:
The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character.

No. Just no. Rey could be a male and the same problems would apply.

I'm not saying she's not too competent, if that's really a problem at all she without a doubt is. But its such an unimportant nitpick that it wouldn't have garnered the wall of online whining if she were a male. Just like Luke didn't.

Kyrian007:
Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on.

Differences:

-Luke had time to train in the X-Wing, and was established to be a competent pilot and a good shot already, not to mention that he needs help getting to the exhaust port. Rey, on the other hand, flies the Millennium Falcon with no apparent experience (the novelization stated that she'd trained in a flight simulator, but the movie doesn't specify this).

-Luke didn't defeat Vader until his third film. Rey defeats Kylo Ren in their very first duel, despite the lack of any Force training.

[/spoiler]

Nope, Luke trained in a T-16, an atmospheric ship not a combat starship. Rey had obviously been allowed on the Falcon considering how much she knew about how much was wrong with it. She obviously wanted to fly ships and obsessed over it... again much like Luke. Luke drove an airspeeder well, it was shown in the movie Rey had an airspeeder... not really seeing much difference. And Vader... Kylo Ren is no Vader. A half trained, conflicted and confused emo Vader maybe. Who had just been shot with a freaking bowcaster which the movie shows blasting stormtroopers 30 feet through the air, yet Kylo just tanks it so I'm sure he's far from at his best. It just didn't seem like much of an issue to me. No different than any "chosen one" story really. And the online response seemed very different than most others... where the protagonist is male. Just calling it like I see it.

They really dropped the ball on this one.

They completely changed subplots from Episode 7, had plots that were pointless, Luke acted completely wrong to the point that even Mark Hamill was pissed off with the writers, the new admiral was insanely stupid with no leadership skills whatsoever, and her little sacrifice retroactively fucked the previous films up because they could have used that method to solve all of the problems they were faced with.

And thats all without going into super spoiler territory.

I have no idea how they are going to unfuck things for Episode 9.

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