A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

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This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

Dansen:
This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

Lol calm down

Well finally went to see the film, and it was a far more enjoyable space fantasy romp than any of the original trilogy (and certainly the bland Rogue One - TLJ had those actual facial expressions with that proper human emotion and character and whatnot; finally people to care about). I keep forgetting the series is basically aimed at the kiddos and parental adultos in a family-film sort of way, as the light/dark premise is inescapably stupid to say the least, but whatevs, I'm here for the entertainment. I blame this imprecise memory on the vast uncritical, unconditional nostalgic love people seem to have for the original trilogy, as it paints a much higher pretense of quality and maturity than they actually have. These are just space fantasy westerns for the kiddos/family and the old trilogy was not that great.

Have to say though, watching hardcore fans having a shitfit over critics like Mark Kermode rating it highly is equal parts baffling, entertaining and depressing. One commenter was pretty much saying Mark had lost all credibility in that one review alone. Hah. Nostalgia is one hell of a bitch.

Tldr: This sort of opinion isn't going to help make or maintain any friends here, so...
image

Chewster:

PsychedelicDiamond:
There's a lot of anger and negativity surrounding this movie so I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm gonna like it a lot.

Ditto. Any time any hardcore fanboy of anything starts crying about how they "ruined" something I know I'm probably in for fun. Might go see it twice, just for shiggles.

There are some seriously histrionic reviews in this here thread. Like, it's a movie series about laser swords and telepathic space monks, stop acting like Uwe Boll remade Citizen Kane or whatever.

They didn't 'ruin' anything.
They just were handed something, that were sure-fire hit and in first iteration played so safe it was bordering pliagiarism and in next iteration it really feels like 2 famous directors were trying to give blue balls one to another. Abrams leaving a lot of open ended but railed into certain direction plots and Johnson, taking and throwing them out of the window (ignoring or ending abruptly). Taking a giant piss at pacing (no plots or character development is really moved forward in any meaningful fashion in this movie) of the trilogy, burning bridges to tie in anything again with former movies, before taking his scheduled exit stage left.
Literally, it feels like a middle finger to Abrams more than anything. I can see the hilarity in this and it is a fun flick to watch but I'd rather 'boys' have had their squabble over something else than 40 years worth of, world recognised sci-fi setting. I am pretty serious when I say I'd rather watch a flick with gungan jedi and porg sith lords, featuring lightsaber duels. Because why the f-k not, it would be as entertaining and at least both directors could have dropped the pretense.

Edit:
I mean just imagine it. Porg sith lord fighting a gungan jedi. You know kids would have loved it and you know you'd have a blast in the theater watching that.

Watching this collective pivot away from TFA is maddening.

Two years ago, I was the proverbial mad man in the town square constantly shushed down by "Don't worry, they still have two films to explain it! Rey might be part of the Super Space Jesus Clan or a secret Kenobi! Finn is probably force-sensitive! Phasma will do something cool next movie!" when I expressed disdain for the insularity of the mythos centering around the same dozen characters and Abrams setting up shit I knew subsequent directors wouldn't bother with. Now, having received a shaggy dog story, all of a sudden everyone is treating Star Wars like Neon Genesis Evangelion and willing to throw TFA under the bus in order to jack off TLJ for its "deconstruction" and subversion and, "Hey, man, heroes fail too..." posturing despite having defended TFA's flaws with the old "They're children's fantasies!" canard. Yes, children want to see that heroes ultimately burn out, betray their values, get divorced, regress, and die ignominiously like Han Solo did.

I get it, though. People are more invested in the meta-narrative than the narrative. They're more interested in the idea of some Alt-Right/neckbeard fanboy gnashing teeth over all the girl power and diversity, OT purists having their noses swatted for being elitist pricks who think "the force" metaphorically belongs to them and crying, "Not my Luke!", or just reconciling how and why adults should continue being obsessed with such children's fairy tales. The story onscreen or this trilogy being internally consistent be-damned.

All the while at Disney: Yeah, yeah, kill the past, but first help us continue clearing 2 billion dollars off brand recognition alone for perpetuity! Aren't you excited for the upcoming Han Solo/Boba Fett/Obi Wan prequel adventures? Minorities in minor roles! PORGS!

Fuck off with this self-serving horseshit!

RJ 17:

RJ 17:

I've had a night to sleep on it and yeah, still the worst Star Wars movie I've ever seen, baring maybe those Ewok movies, but only because I haven't seen them in a while.
I imagine going back I'll be impressed with the coherent story, 3 act structure, consistent characters and development and lack of waste.

What an absolute travesty.

Dazzle Novak:
Watching this collective pivot away from TFA is maddening.

Harlan Ellison:
"But that's the point! Is the single defense I get when I alienate myself at dinner parties by my negativity. It's supposed to be mindless, I'm told. And then those professional types who are safe in loving Star Wars where they might be attacked for reading the latest Robert Silverberg or Thomas Disch sf novel, explain to me as carefully as one would a retarded child, that Star Wars is a return to the worship of the Eternal Verifies: honor, truth, fighting Evil. All black and white. Try black and white in a world of credit cards, punk rock, mastectomies, Watergate, the rise of homegrown Nazism, Anita Bryant, and the terrifying fact that more than half of all serious crimes in the United States are committed by people between the ages of ten and seventeen?-and that includes rape, murder, robbery, aggravated assault and burglary."

Before Rogue One and it's sterilised murder of an innocent man by it's "hero" at the side of the frame I thought Ellison's rant was unfair to what was only intended to be an action adventure throwback with nods to Kurosawa and Flash Gordon as a break in the middle of New Hollywood and not it's eventual killer. Now his writing has become distressingly prophetic.

Jamcie Kerbizz:
no plots or character development is really moved forward in any meaningful fashion in this movie

It is totally fine to not like the movie, but you don't need to exaggerate/lie about what it does. If there's one thing TLJ does, it is provide character development. All of the four new main cast (Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo) get a clear arc in this movie and resolve it neatly with some character growth:

Rey: Learns that her heritage is unimportant and stops trying to find surrogate parents to cling to.
Finn: Gets to see the logical end point of his "I don't want to get involved"-stance and realizes he does not want to become like DJ, thus galvanizing him to take a stand against the First Order.
Poe: Has to face the realization that winning the battle is not winning the war and has to come to terms with following orders and trusting others to do what's right, instead of rushing off to do his own thing.
Kylo: Stops trying to mimic Vader, realizes that Snoke is manipulating him and resolves to reshape the galaxy to his own ideals.

Whether these arcs and plots are any good can be discussed, but they are undoubtedly there.

I loved it. It was different. A lot more different than what people are used to when they think about Star Wars. It's a bit more adult in its approach to certain things. So a lot of people are probably not going to like it. But every character had their big moment, although for some of them the big moment amounts to a complete fuck up, which will hopefully lead to their growth. And that's a big theme for this movie. It feels more like a war epic setting up the grand finale than a standard feel-good Star Wars movie about good triumphing against evil.

Adam Jensen:
I loved it. It was different. A lot more different than what people are used to when they think about Star Wars. It's a bit more adult in its approach to certain things. So a lot of people are probably not going to like it. But every character had their big moment, although for some of them the big moment amounts to a complete fuck up, which will hopefully lead to their growth. And that's a big theme for this movie. It feels more like a war epic setting up the grand finale than a standard feel-good Star Wars movie about good triumphing against evil.

You mean like Empire Strikes back? Or Revenge of the Sith?

And big moments, sure, but ones that are completely out of character and a willfully negligent of the hero's journey. This movie was cinematic malpractice. A designed-by-committee Star Wars knockoff who clearly don't know story structure, let alone Star Wars.

Silentpony:
willfully negligent of the hero's journey.

It's worth pointing out that Joseph Campbell's monomyth is not to be adhered to slavishly. Rather, it's a tool in the toolbox. You don't need to hit the hero's journey beat for beat to make a story feel mythic in scope.

BeetleManiac:

Silentpony:
willfully negligent of the hero's journey.

It's worth pointing out that Joseph Campbell's monomyth is not to be adhered to slavishly. Rather, it's a tool in the toolbox. You don't need to hit the hero's journey beat for beat to make a story feel mythic in scope.

Granted yes, but Luke had already been on the hero's journey. Rey and Finn need not adhere, sure, but Luke already had and their new movie totally erases all heroic value in the character gained from said journey.

Its one thing to have non-traditional characters. Its another to rewrite an already established character to fit an out-of-character moment.
It'd be like going up to Batman and saying 'Batman, the Joker has kidnapped Nightwing and Oracle and is holding at the old abandoned Circus outside of town!'
and Batman just shrugging and going 'I don't fight crime anymore, the Joker wins, there's no point in fighting him"

It goes against the established nature of the character.

Kyrian007:

Nope, Luke trained in a T-16, an atmospheric ship not a combat starship. Rey had obviously been allowed on the Falcon considering how much she knew about how much was wrong with it. She obviously wanted to fly ships and obsessed over it... again much like Luke. Luke drove an airspeeder well, it was shown in the movie Rey had an airspeeder... not really seeing much difference. And Vader... Kylo Ren is no Vader. A half trained, conflicted and confused emo Vader maybe. Who had just been shot with a freaking bowcaster which the movie shows blasting stormtroopers 30 feet through the air, yet Kylo just tanks it so I'm sure he's far from at his best. It just didn't seem like much of an issue to me. No different than any "chosen one" story really. And the online response seemed very different than most others... where the protagonist is male. Just calling it like I see it.

I know the T-16 is atmospheric, but again, the movie goes to lengths as soon as Luke meets Ben that he's a good pilot. Ben says so, Luke tells Han, Biggs tells Red Leader, and at the end, we see that pay off, and even then, Luke still needs help to make the shot. Likewise, one can infer that he does have enough time to train in an X-Wing (an EU novel does confirm as such). Rey, novelization aside, hasn't been built up as a pilot prior to this point, has likely never flown anything before except her speeder (which isn't aerodynamic at all), and does so expertly.

As for Kylo Ren, sure, he took a bowcaster bolt to the stomach, but even so, while he's hampered physically, he has far more training than Rey. The she wins against him kind of undermines him as a future villain.

Dansen:
This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

Lay off the kool aid m8.

Chewster:

Lol calm down

Or what Chewster said.

Silentpony:

Granted yes, but Luke had already been on the hero's journey. Rey and Finn need not adhere, sure, but Luke already had and their new movie totally erases all heroic value in the character gained from said journey.

Its one thing to have non-traditional characters. Its another to rewrite an already established character to fit an out-of-character moment.
It'd be like going up to Batman and saying 'Batman, the Joker has kidnapped Nightwing and Oracle and is holding at the old abandoned Circus outside of town!'
and Batman just shrugging and going 'I don't fight crime anymore, the Joker wins, there's no point in fighting him"

It goes against the established nature of the character.

I disagree. Luke's character step can easily occur. If one completes the hero's journey, they're not obliged to stay a paragon for the rest of their life. Considering Luke's experiences, I can easily see him going down the path he did.

Let's use Batman as an example. If your scenario occurs while Bats is in top form, it's weird. But let's say, that, say, twenty years ago, Batman failed to stop the Joker from killing thousands. His failure shook him. What's more, if he hadn't blindly followed his no kill rule, and put the Joker in the ground, those thousands would still be alive. Feeling like he'd failed, believing that he wasn't good for Gotham City, he retired. But at least the Joker seemed to have gone.

Cut forward twenty years later, and Bats has gotten old. So when the Joker comes round, he doesn't feel up to it. Not physically, not mentally, and is wracked by guilt - if he does face the Joker, what then? Kill him? Imprison him, only to let him escape? No. His time has passed. Course Terry McGinnis can do whatever (who's telling Batman this anyway?)

This is off the top of my head, but my point is if that a character seems unflappable and perfect at one point in their character development, they're not guaranteed to stay at that point of said character development, and plenty of characters have been emotionally broken from their experiences, requiring protagonists to shake them out of it.

Hawki:
SNIP

But the timing doesn't make sense. In the movie, Luke implies he knew who Snoke was while he was training Ben and the others. He knew about a Dark Lord of the Sith, and the Sith's attempts to get his padawans, and did nothing.
Even knowing there was a darkness growing in Ben, he not only refused to help Ben, but never attempted to stop Snoke, who apparently both Han and Leia knew about too, and did nothing.

And that's all ambivalence before Ben becomes Kylo.

So in keeping with the batman analogy, it'd be that Batman knew about the Joker's plan to murder thousands, chose not to stop him, then when thousands died went all emo and exiled himself. And now, years later, he doesn't care. Even though he obviously didn't care in the first place.

Well, at least it's giving something to talk about. Opinions go from BEST STAR WARS MOVIE to WORST STAR WARS MOVIE.

(It's the worst)

Pyrian:

Chewster:

Dansen:
This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

Lol calm down

Sorry for for being hyperbolic, but this is an issue that nobody talks about. If they hadn't made this weird half way beginnings of romance between Finn and Rey in TFA, I wouldn't give a fuck. I'm miffed, cause they back pedal and they back pedal HARD in the new movie. In general I found the movie to be unbearable. Lots of neat ideas and cool little moments, but this was the first movie I have seen years that left me so bored that I wanted it to end. Rian is somehow a genius for "deconstructing Star Wars" , but he did such a shitty job of tearing it all down that I no longer care. Congratulations Rian.

I can safely say that as someone who used to advocate for the prequels before, this movie is the reason I now advocate best for the Original Trilogy.

To preface this entire rant, I thought Rose was abnormally cute and you can all fight me on that.

First off, fuck off with that talk about Luke being some all-knowing perfectly capable God among protags, kid literally gets his shit pushed in compared to the rest of the cast for the first two movies, Death Star aside. Especially considering he was the most hesitant about the Jedi thing in the first place because of the way Yoda and Obi-Wan got on his ass. I completely forgot that they were being stooges and insisting for some sort of 2edgy4me ending without any hope for redemption in the mix.

Was it corny and sometimes contrived? Yes, but I could believe his development and his progression to finally becoming one of the last Jedi Knights in the galaxy, and choosing to go his own way from what his masters taught him.

I know it's Star Wars and everything and the morality can get pretty damn iffy, but I can get in to Luke being jaded about how the Jedi were, and how everything ended up coming down pretty badly. I thought the Jedi were always a bunch of overrated asswipes that were mainly just good for keeping Space Nazis off the galaxy's back, and even in the Original Trilogy it's pretty clear that Luke doesn't wholeheartedly agree with how they handle things. That's what made me appreciate Luke a lot, he came to a reasonable and in my opinion, far more justifiable viewpoint for the force and how the galaxy should go. After everything he's seen and learned, everything he's experienced, if he told me that the force in general wasn't working out for anyone and that this crap needed to end I'd say seen me the hell up.

While Rey doesn't piss me off AS MUCH as it does a lot of people, she does still get on my nerves because I was hoping they'd be more nuanced with her this time around.

And no, you absolute god damn babies it's NOT because she's a woman.

She could've been some ripped 20 year old Disney Highschool Drama Bro with the biggest screw-off Aryan chin in the world and I still would've been angry about the character.

Now I will also say that I'm going to wait and see what Episode IX does with her, because I actually thinks she was way better here than in The Force Awakens.

But as a general take, she just feels like she doesn't even do much of anything. Rose and Finn do something, Leia does something, Luke does something, Han does something by retrospective of being dead and that messing with Kylo does plenty.

Rey just feels like the same plot device that people accuse Luke of being without any of the bare minimum humanity. It's all either constipated looking frustration at something or other, or she's being nice because the script is asking her to.

Maybe if SHE was more reluctant about the whole thing and Finn be the one that commits more it would make a lot more sense. Finn wants to do right by the people that he wronged while he was a stormtrooper, Rey just wants to figure things out for herself and get answers.

This way Finn gets to learn his own lessons about being too eager to help and Rey learns better about working with people.

But it's always Finn that's being the comic relief that's always holding back on being a hero while Rey doesn't get anything that would compliment her background. She just up and suddenly does things that would feel good if they were details in the later films, but these new movies just blow their damn loads as immediately as possible.

And the entire situation with the empire is a mess that gives me a headache when I think about it so I'm not gonna go in to why I hate how they handled Snoke and Ben here.

So in summary:

Stop trying to make Luke edgy.
Stop making Leia a more geriatric Dumbledore
Stop mixing up all of the character's intended personalities
And for the love of god GIVE Rey a personality.

Gethsemani:

Jamcie Kerbizz:
no plots or character development is really moved forward in any meaningful fashion in this movie

It is totally fine to not like the movie, but you don't need to exaggerate/lie about what it does. If there's one thing TLJ does, it is provide character development. All of the four new main cast (Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo) get a clear arc in this movie and resolve it neatly with some character growth:

Rey: Learns that her heritage is unimportant and stops trying to find surrogate parents to cling to.
Finn: Gets to see the logical end point of his "I don't want to get involved"-stance and realizes he does not want to become like DJ, thus galvanizing him to take a stand against the First Order.
Poe: Has to face the realization that winning the battle is not winning the war and has to come to terms with following orders and trusting others to do what's right, instead of rushing off to do his own thing.
Kylo: Stops trying to mimic Vader, realizes that Snoke is manipulating him and resolves to reshape the galaxy to his own ideals.

Whether these arcs and plots are any good can be discussed, but they are undoubtedly there.

Well more than anything, Your compiled list, supports my opinion no plots or character development is really moved forward in any meaningful fashion.
Thank You I suppose(?) would be appropriate here.

Dansen:

Chewster:

Dansen:
This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

Lol calm down

Sorry for for being hyperbolic, but this is an issue that nobody talks about. If they hadn't made this weird half way beginnings of romance between Finn and Rey in TFA, I wouldn't give a fuck. I'm miffed, cause they back pedal and they back pedal HARD in the new movie. In general I found the movie to be unbearable. Lots of neat ideas and cool little moments, but this was the first movie I have seen years that left me so bored that I wanted it to end. Rian is somehow a genius for "deconstructing Star Wars" , but he did such a shitty job of tearing it all down that I no longer care. Congratulations Rian.

Nobody talks about it because it's non-issue. Johnson pretty much boned Abrams on EVERY developing, open ended 'plot' from TFA. Digging for racism in this is schizophrenic (you need to take off your race goggles). It's just one director giving another a finger and saying, nope, you will NOT control my movie. Finn now will have a relationship with that chick I dropped in few hours ago into MY movie. To be honest it's a lost opportunity either way. They could have introduced interspecies romantic relationship, with Twi, Zabrak, Cathar or a Wookie. They literally have entire galaxy of opportunities and they go for human on human shtick yet again.

Hawki:

Kyrian007:

Nope, Luke trained in a T-16, an atmospheric ship not a combat starship. Rey had obviously been allowed on the Falcon considering how much she knew about how much was wrong with it. She obviously wanted to fly ships and obsessed over it... again much like Luke. Luke drove an airspeeder well, it was shown in the movie Rey had an airspeeder... not really seeing much difference. And Vader... Kylo Ren is no Vader. A half trained, conflicted and confused emo Vader maybe. Who had just been shot with a freaking bowcaster which the movie shows blasting stormtroopers 30 feet through the air, yet Kylo just tanks it so I'm sure he's far from at his best. It just didn't seem like much of an issue to me. No different than any "chosen one" story really. And the online response seemed very different than most others... where the protagonist is male. Just calling it like I see it.

I know the T-16 is atmospheric, but again, the movie goes to lengths as soon as Luke meets Ben that he's a good pilot. Ben says so, Luke tells Han, Biggs tells Red Leader, and at the end, we see that pay off, and even then, Luke still needs help to make the shot.

Needs help from a skill he's practiced with for less than 24 hours or so. Just like Rey does with her jedi powers?

Likewise, one can infer that he does have enough time to train in an X-Wing (an EU novel does confirm as such). Rey, novelization aside, hasn't been built up as a pilot prior to this point, has likely never flown anything before except her speeder (which isn't aerodynamic at all), and does so expertly.

So its ok to look to a novel for Luke, but not Rey? Why are we giving him more of a benefit of the doubt? Seems like a potential bias there (for whatever reason)

As for Kylo Ren, sure, he took a bowcaster bolt to the stomach, but even so, while he's hampered physically, he has far more training than Rey. The she wins against him kind of undermines him as a future villain.

Yeah, its not as if the movie establishes she has plenty of melee weapon fighting experience by showing a scene where she wallops 2 guys who got the drop on her while at the same time showing how much Kylo has suffered by showing a NON-FORCE SENSETIVE fighter get a touch in on him in a fight just prior to his and Rey's. And now we know

Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

So I watched it.

And what do I think.

I kinda don't know? Was it good? I guess, in that it was entertaining. Was it bad? I guess, in that I have no clue where this story is going and it doesn't so much feel like the middle of a Trilogy as it feels like an extension and subversion of a lot of the stuff in TFA.

I mean look at the continuations here

Finn has a thing for Rey and she possibly has one for him -> Let's have them seperated until the end of the movie and be entirely vague about where this is going but also have a new Lady that wants Finn...who is already well-known even though this Movie seemingly picks up where TFA left off in terms of time passed. Also, let's imply romantical interest between Rey and Kylo and not really do anything remotely concrete in that area either.

Why is Rey so powerful? What's the deal with her parents?
Does she have some kind of prior force training and doesn't know? -> Well, uh, she's powerful because Kylo is...I guess? Is there any reason why she picks up on these force powers so easily? No, not really, she just does. Who are her parents? Well, Kylo say's nobodies, but who knows, he could be lying. The real answer from the makers is "Meh, who cares?".

Who is this Snoke guy? -> Meh. He's dead now. But you know, Dark Sider who was in the process of ranting about how he has such a good grip on the whole situation, either this was for comedic purposes or foreshadowing, who knows? The makers answer is "We don't know, let us get back to you, maybe we'll explain this at some point in the future, until then, who cares?".

Is Luke doing something special on this Planet he's on? -> No, not really. Waiting to die basically. He's jaded and stuff now, so he just kinda doesn't give a shit until he does for no real reason. I guess it was Yoda's little pep talk? Also, he's dead now. But Jedi, so we may or may not see him again...probably won't do anything cool though.

It did leave us with a new status quo...which I don't really like.

So now Kylo is leading the First Order after killing Snoke, he continues in his goal to...to what? Destroy the past? Ok, but what exactly is this guys vision of the future? He's like Anakin in that his reasons for being a evil facist are entirely underwhelming in that at the end of the day they can both be boiled down to "just cuz". Hell, I think Anakin was actually a bit more explained. Kylo seems to really just kinda be mad at the "World" and that's his whole thing, there's no real rhyme or reason to anything he does.

Rey isn't going to be a Jedi...or maybe she will. Really this is one of my issues with this Movie, it's so back and forth on everything and it all amounts to a whole lot of nothing. Very little changes from this Movie to the next.

Yeah, Snoke is dead, but he was hardly in the last one or this one. He was wasted.

Yeah, Luke died, but he was hardly in the last one and didn't do much in this one either. He literally never leaves that Planet, his biggest Role in the Movie is to mess with Kylo's Head for a few Minutes as a Distraction. He hardly gives Rey any Training, little more then a basic idea of what the Force is. He too is wasted.

And also, we end the Movie on a shot of a kid force pulling a broom to his Hand and gazing into the Stars...which kinda implies some relevance to this Kid specifically given what kind of visuals Star Wars typically invokes. Now I kinda assume that this too will not have any significant pay-off.

I have no idea where this is going, this seems more like the conclussion of a opening chapter then a middle chapter. The only thing I can currently see happening...but even to me just sounds weird...is that Kylo and Rey will essentially turn out to be Force Avatars, this will explain the whole their power growing at an equal rate thing and also at least give some deeper meaning to the attraction they seem to have.

Also, new Lady, Rose I believe her name was...kinda pointless addition.

Kyrian007:
Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

Fischgopf:

Kyrian007:
Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?
If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

Zetatrain:

Fischgopf:

Kyrian007:
Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?
If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

Zetatrain:

Fischgopf:

Kyrian007:
Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?
If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

Oh yeah, numerous 'chosen ones'. Logical continuation to mass 'lone riders' and 'dune submarines' migarations.

Fischgopf:

Kyrian007:
Again, not saying she doesn't display exceptional powers... but trying to say that she is "more" of an overpowered "mary sue" than Luke is kind of ignoring the fact that her character is intentionally a direct parallel TO Luke. Any small amount of variation in favor of the new character is easily explained away by sequel's perfectly natural inclination to "up the stakes."

Except that Luke is the Son of the Choosen One. He supposedly has similar latent potential like Anakin did, Leia likewise.

So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

And yes, she has similar potential. That's the exact point of the subtext of how parallel the similarities are between Anakin, his son, and Rey. That SAME SUBTEXT that was subverted in The Last Jedi.

Zetatrain:
True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?

If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

To be fair, Anakin has the whole prophecy thing, as well as the EU explanation of literally being Space Jesus created by Plagueis and Sidious. He also ends up being a creepy, obsessed (slightly rapey), multiple times genocidal asshole, quite a far cry from the perpetual righteousness of Rey.

I understand that the accusation of "Sue" gets thrown around willy nilly at competent female characters nowadays, and is used in this childish culture conflict between Western conservatives/reactionaries and progressives to "score points", hell - my personal favourite fictional character Daenerys gets constantly unfairly accused of Sueishness, but let's be real, I struggle to see how Rey is anything but now that all of JJ's set-ups (including Phasma, who could have been an interesting, intimidating female villain, but ended up a complete joke two movies in a row) have been completely brushed aside by Johnson.

Unless they reuse the whole Luuke hand-clone plotline from the former EU or she gets some seriously needed character development in Episode 9, I think that'll stay my opinion. I was severely disappointed by the lack of direction the sequel trilogy seems to have at this point, I daresay TLJ might even be worse than Rogue One at this point. (Still not Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones levels of bad though)

That being said, Laura Dern was easily the best character of the movie.

Kyrian007:
So, you kinda can't explain Luke that way and then present Rey pulling off more incredible feats without any explanation and then be surprised when she's called a Mary Sue, especially not in our current Zeitgeist where she absolutely could be one for the purpose of pandering to Feminists.

And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.[/quote]

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

Sonmi:

Zetatrain:
True, but wouldn't Anakin fall into the same category as Rey?

If so then Rey would not be the first force user we've seen in the movies who possesses great force potential despite coming from a non force user background.

my personal favourite fictional character Daenerys gets constantly unfairly accused of Sueishness

Dany is FAR from being a Mary Sue than Rey is and Dany says it right out of her mouth in Season 7 no less:

https://youtu.be/mk1DXwb-XbM?t=5m15s

Mary Sue is a fanfiction term describing a new character's relation to an established work. It's kind of silly to judge classic characters or characters who've been in a work from jump this way whether they're over-powered wank fantasies or not.

The way these new movies mush together the meta-narrative with the narrative-narrative by literally having the protagonist and antagonist's primary motivation be literally wanting to be like the old characters is a large source of this criticism I feel. It's fan fic-y as fuck and compounded by the modern trope of "No training required." Mocked as they are, "Rocky Montages" at least feint toward the idea that greatness requires hard work and the OT made this gesture no matter how much new fans want to retcon Luke as being a superstud from jump. In nu-Star Trek (I'll let you spot the common denominator), Kirk becomes captain simply because it's his destiny and everyone ranked higher than him dies or recuses themselves and Rey is simple born with tons of force potential. I don't see how being born with your power over 9000 is any less genetic destiny/more populist than needing to be a Skywalker. I guess you don't need to become a space monk to do cool space monk shit. How convenient.

Jamcie Kerbizz:
Finn now will have a relationship with that chick I dropped in few hours ago into MY movie.

We sure? Seems like Rey, Finn, Rose, and Poe are now in some kind of love rectangle.

Shippers, take your bets!

Kyrian007:

Needs help from a skill he's practiced with for less than 24 hours or so. Just like Rey does with her jedi powers?

Luke's been a pilot long before the X-Wing, Rey hasn't had the same level of practice. Force-wise, Luke does use the Force, but it's so minor compared to Rey's feats. The equivalent would be Luke running over to Vader after Ben's 'death' and defeating him then and there.

Kyrian007:

So its ok to look to a novel for Luke, but not Rey? Why are we giving him more of a benefit of the doubt? Seems like a potential bias there (for whatever reason)

No, I didn't say that, I just highlighted that EU material accounts for both. The difference is that I feel A New Hope stands on its own better than TFA, in that, again, Luke's skill as a pilot is mentioned over and over again before he ever climbs into the X-Wing. Rey's abilities as a pilot are never mentioned once before she climbs into the Falcon. One can reasonably infer that Luke had some time to train on Yavin as well, while there's no reason to infer that Rey ever got to play around in the Falcon on Jakku, given that she's basically indendtured.

Kyrian007:

Yeah, its not as if the movie establishes she has plenty of melee weapon fighting experience by showing a scene where she wallops 2 guys who got the drop on her

A staff, not a lightsaber.

(On that note, am I the only one who thinks it would be appropriate for Rey to get a double-bladed lightsaber like Maul? She's seen with a staff reguarly, it would suit her fighting style better and give her a sense of identity.)

Kyrian007:

while at the same time showing how much Kylo has suffered by showing a NON-FORCE SENSETIVE fighter get a touch in on him in a fight just prior to his and Rey's. And now we know

Doesn't Snoke create the mind link? It seems to linger, but I thought it was mostly on him.

Hawki:

Kyrian007:

Needs help from a skill he's practiced with for less than 24 hours or so. Just like Rey does with her jedi powers?

Luke's been a pilot long before the X-Wing, Rey hasn't had the same level of practice. Force-wise, Luke does use the Force, but it's so minor compared to Rey's feats. The equivalent would be Luke running over to Vader after Ben's 'death' and defeating him then and there.

I wasn't talking about piloting (we'll just have to disagree on that, the novels say Luke trained on an x-wing, a novel says Rey did simulations, they both practice on airspeeders... I just don't see the difference) I was talking about having to use the force, something he knew nothing about until a day or so before, to bypass a computer targeting system that couldn't hit a 2 meter target at-speed.

Kyrian007:

Yeah, its not as if the movie establishes she has plenty of melee weapon fighting experience by showing a scene where she wallops 2 guys who got the drop on her

A staff, not a lightsaber.

(On that note, am I the only one who thinks it would be appropriate for Rey to get a double-bladed lightsaber like Maul? She's seen with a staff reguarly, it would suit her fighting style better and give her a sense of identity.)

Ehh, she's a fighter. It's close enough to realistically beat a wounded Vader wannabe. And I agree, a double blader would be cool and would fit in with the "doing away with the past" subtext of The Last Jedi.

Kyrian007:

while at the same time showing how much Kylo has suffered by showing a NON-FORCE SENSETIVE fighter get a touch in on him in a fight just prior to his and Rey's. And now we know

Doesn't Snoke create the mind link? It seems to linger, but I thought it was mostly on him.

Kyrian007:
And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male?

How exactly would they pander to Feminists with a male seemingly Super-Capable Rey?

And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

The Problem isn't Gender. The Problem is responses like yours. People like you are a thing. Tons of them in fact. They get pandered to and everyone is poorer off for it because people like you tend to have terrible taste. We can't even fucking talk about it without folks like you jumping in to start bitching about misogyny, whether it's actually there or not. People like you are a built in defense for lazy Writers.

And yes, she has similar potential.

Bullshit. You don't ACTUALLY know that. It's what you assume based on the fact that no explanation has been given. For all you or I know Force Powers have simply been retconned to either be far more powerful or far simpler to learn.

That's the exact point of the subtext of how parallel the similarities are between Anakin, his son, and Rey. That SAME SUBTEXT that was subverted in The Last Jedi.

Note. Anakin and Luke -> Blood Relatives who just so happen to be the result of a prophetsized virgin birth, essentially Space-Jesus and his progeny respectively.

Why does Rey, a character with little to no training and seemingly no special ancestory to explain it, have better feats then these Characters? Why can she beat a trained Dark Side User (From this special Bloodline to boot)when under similar, arguably even more favorable to them circumstances, Luke and Anakin could not? Why can she, with no prior explanation of how to even do it, force pull a lightsaber from a significant distance and great speed to herself when Luke struggled to accomplish pulling one to himself that was merely a few feet away despite the fact the he was further along in his training?

I'm perfectly fine to hear a answer. The problem is that no answer has been given and they seem to now be actively dodging it, which only makes the "She's a Mary Sue" argument stronger. Do you know why that is? Because it's becoming increasingly likely that she is by her very design.

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