A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

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Sonmi:

Kyrian007:
And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

Well, with Wesley Crusher it isn't the same at all. Wesley was used as a Deus Ex Machina several times... becoming a (admitted by the writers) writer's crutch before anyone started caring or complaining about it. But Rey has the audacity to be good at stuff... and a girl, and the second the movie is over the redpillers are crying all over the internet about how "mary sue" she is.

Jon Snow? I only read the books, and I don't see much parallel there. Of course in the books he's still dead, and has screwed up easily as much as lucked into a couple of wins.

Fischgopf:

Kyrian007:
And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male?

How exactly would they pander to Feminists with a male seemingly Super-Capable Rey?

That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

Kyrian007:

Fischgopf:

Kyrian007:
And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male?

How exactly would they pander to Feminists with a male seemingly Super-Capable Rey?

That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

No dude, YOU are making it about gender. I didn't say that pandering in and of itself is bad. But it does make it easy to write badly and then have people such as yourself jump to the defense of said bad writing.

I'm saying it's not unreasonible to assume that Rey may be written the way she is to Pander. Which would be bad because we then lack a reasonible in-universe explanation for her awesomeness and are graced with people such as yourself that try to squash the criticism surrounding those poor choices in writing.

You are basically sitting here going "No, everyone stop being critical of this character. I don't want to think about how this character I like for reasons outside of the narrative doesn't seem thought out in context of the established narrative."

Your inability to handle the criticism is your problem. That's why you have to try and make it about misogyny.

And are you fucking kidding me? The main cast of these new Movies is a white Female, Asian Female, Black Male and a Latino Male. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that no pandering to special interest groups is going on here and this just incidentally came about in the process of writing the story. Really really really naive.

Fischgopf:

Kyrian007:

Fischgopf:

How exactly would they pander to Feminists with a male seemingly Super-Capable Rey?

That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

No dude, YOU are making it about gender. I didn't say that pandering in and of itself is bad. But it does make it easy to write badly and then have people such as yourself jump to the defense of said bad writing.

I'm saying it's not unreasonible to assume that Rey may be written the way she is to Pander. Which would be bad because we then lack a reasonible in-universe explanation for her awesomeness and are graced with people such as yourself that try to squash the criticism surrounding those poor choices in writing.

You are basically sitting here going "No, everyone stop being critical of this character. I don't want to think about how this character I like for reasons outside of the narrative doesn't seem thought out in context of the established narrative."

Your inability to handle the criticism is your problem. That's why you have to try and make it about misogyny.

And are you fucking kidding me? The main cast of these new Movies is a white Female, Asian Female, Black Male and a Latino Male. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that no pandering to special interest groups is going on here and this just incidentally came about in the process of writing the story. Really really really naive.

Also Star Wars Rogue One's protaginist is a female. I remember seeing an Article that they guys running Disney's Star Wars know what they are doing, that they want to make every Star Wars movie have Female Protagnists.

Kyrian007:

Sonmi:

Kyrian007:
And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

Well, with Wesley Crusher it isn't the same at all. Wesley was used as a Deus Ex Machina several times... becoming a (admitted by the writers) writer's crutch before anyone started caring or complaining about it. But Rey has the audacity to be good at stuff... and a girl, and the second the movie is over the redpillers are crying all over the internet about how "mary sue" she is.

Jon Snow? I only read the books, and I don't see much parallel there. Of course in the books he's still dead, and has screwed up easily as much as lucked into a couple of wins.

What is entertaining in movie series devoted to character development in character that never struggles? Just has everything handed, always achieves etc.

Luke went from dumb redneck with golden heart and loving family, to force sensitive whiny bitch struggling with harsh reality (being son of fictional Hitler, becoming amputee and getting entangled in war, dealings of criminals and ancient religion), to grown man who makes respectful decisions, puts his life on the line for friends and family, is adept in warfare and shenanigans of said religion, reforms that religion adding something which both schizmatic sides of that religion seem to have lost or never had, human nature (he relies on his and sees it in others, even his father).

Luke is relatable to people who expect, that hard work and harsh beat ups that life serves may eventually give an amazing payout if someone maintains the course despite obstacles (unlike with entitled lill b&@tch Anakin). Rey is relatable if you expect to have everything just be handed to you, that you feel you're just that undiscovered prodigy like her. Never felt like working for it, because in your mind you don't have to. That you struggle, stranded like her but that's not your fault. Truth is such day never comes and even if it comes you will miss the opportunity anyway. That's why Rey is so dull and artificial as a character.

Trivial example, why would she 'rescue' BB8? It's a droid, piece of junk she's surrounded in daily. She collects and sells junk, she's nobody from nowhere, that has to think about her survival daily, not devise anthropomorphism of droids.
Luke the farm boy would help to catch it for few creds and move on with his life. Why she wouldn't? After 2nd part it's obvious, there's nothing to motivate such action but yet she did 'the right thing'. Luke did 'the right thing' by sheer coincidence. Sure he was written into it but not at expense of his character.

It's a blow doll equivalent of 'power fantasy', just like Amilyn Holdo is a blow doll of leadership and sacrifice. All the pretense none of substance. Neither of these 2 earned the payout they recieve. Unlike Luke and Leia, who prove themselves. They're not perfect but both work for their goals, both pay for their choices, both thread on despite problems. They could be just an unrelated, random shmuck from Tatooine and daughter of notable politician from Alderaan and their characters would still work.

It all spins around idea, that if you work hard, fate (or the foooorceee) may toss you a bone from time to time. If you're good, that will be all that you need to pull yourself to greatness.

Trying to deprecate this obvious disparity down to set of genitalias on character is a nonsense.

Kyrian007:

Sonmi:

Kyrian007:
And there it is. So it wouldn't be a problem "in the current Zeitgeist" if the character was Ray and male? And suddenly we're back to it being a problem because of gender, and not because of how the character was written.

It would still be a problem, it's not like people don't complain about Jon Snows and Wesley Crushers when they infect the media they appear in.

Well, with Wesley Crusher it isn't the same at all. Wesley was used as a Deus Ex Machina several times... becoming a (admitted by the writers) writer's crutch before anyone started caring or complaining about it. But Rey has the audacity to be good at stuff... and a girl, and the second the movie is over the redpillers are crying all over the internet about how "mary sue" she is.

Jon Snow? I only read the books, and I don't see much parallel there. Of course in the books he's still dead, and has screwed up easily as much as lucked into a couple of wins.

Wesley was always an obnoxiously talented at everything Gary Stu, him becoming a crutch later on is more further proof that Roddenberry was losing his touch more than anything. One could argue that Hermione, by comparison, is also often used a crutch by Rowling in HP, but despite being hypercompetent, she's no Sue, she has her vulnerabilities of her own, things Sues/Stus don't tend to have. Wesley, Rey, and Jon Snow sure as hell don't for one.

The complaints about Rey being a Sue are worse this time around because people trusted that her hypercompetence would be explained by the second movie, that all of the mystery surrounding her was simply one of the classic Abrams ploy. Johnson took over though, and scrapped pretty much everything Abrams had set-up... Rey's backstory, the Knights of Ren, Captain Phasma, Supreme Leader Snoke, they've all been thrashed, leaving no proper explanation for Rey being... well, Rey.

Jon Snow is in a similar situation as Rey as far as being unbelievable goes. He has the same problem of being automatically trusted and cherished by every "good" character around him, be that Mormont, the Halfhand, Stannis, Mance, Tyrion (though "good" is shoddily applied here), or Ygritte, without ever having to prove himself or to actually endearing himself to them. Add to that the fact both of them also obtain a "magic sword" in a poorly written way (Mormont giving Jon his family heirloom for no reason, Luke's lightsabre "choosing" Rey), poorly explained magical powers (Rey's force sensitivity/Jon's warging abilities), or inherit gratuitously other characters' sidekicks only adds to that. They're poorly written YA protagonists that the creator desperately want you to root for, and Sues/Stus.

The fact that "redpilled" morons are acting like "redpilled" morons and ridiculously blaming a feminist conspiracy behind Rey being a Sue does not make her any less of a Sue.

I think all this Rey debate can be ended with one sentnce:

Rey is not a good and well written character.

This character will not be as fondly remembered and iconic as Luke Skywalker, Kylo Ren will not be as rememebered and iconic as Darth Vader.

No kid will buy a Kylo Ren action figure over a Darth Vader one.

Samtemdo8:
Also Star Wars Rogue One's protaginist is a female. I remember seeing an Article that they guys running Disney's Star Wars know what they are doing, that they want to make every Star Wars movie have Female Protagnists.

And - as just said above me - she wasn't exactly a Mary Sue either. More balanced character than Rey, definitely. Not due to the actresses but to the writing. Odds are, those writers could write a terrible Gary Sue under the "right" circumstances.

Sonmi:

The complaints about Rey being a Sue are worse this time around because people trusted that her hypercompetence would be explained by the second movie, that all of the mystery surrounding her was simply one of the classic Abrams ploy. Johnson took over though, and scrapped pretty much everything Abrams had set-up... Rey's backstory, the Knights of Ren, Captain Phasma, Supreme Leader Snoke, they've all been thrashed, leaving no proper explanation for Rey being... well, Rey.

Seriously, i would be more pissed if Rey was a Skywalker, a Solo or a Kenobi. She a nobody, the force activate her power to balance Kylo Ren, i like that explanation actually. I think i said it before, but Jedi are not suppose to have kids, so why everyone have decided that to be powerfull she needed to be a Skywalker.

The knights of Ren, could very well still be in the story. all the movie was on Snoke's ship, maybe they are traiing elsewhere, maybe they are on missions elsewhere, maybe they stay in their capital...

Phasma, i admit, she is a let down. she could have more things to do. i think Hux should have stayed in space, and Kylo and Phasma directing the attack on the ground, keeping her alive for another movie.

Snoke, well, he had is role. he corrupted Kylo, he put in place the first order, and get killed. why i should need more ? i mean, take the OT. after return of the jedi, we know as much about the Emperor than we know about Snoke. all the Emperor or even the Empire backstory was never truly explain the the OT. and nobody got mad about it...

Samtemdo8:
I think all this Rey debate can be ended with one sentnce:

Rey is not a good and well written character.

This character will not be as fondly remembered and iconic as Luke Skywalker, Kylo Ren will not be as rememebered and iconic as Darth Vader.

No kid will buy a Kylo Ren action figure over a Darth Vader one.

I disagree with most of that. Most people I've talked to have pretty much liked both of those characters a lot.

cathou:
Seriously, i would be more pissed if Rey was a Skywalker, a Solo or a Kenobi. She a nobody, the force activate her power to balance Kylo Ren, i like that explanation actually. I think i said it before, but Jedi are not suppose to have kids, so why everyone have decided that to be powerfull she needed to be a Skywalker.

She doesn't need to be a Solo, a Skywalker, or a Kennobi, practically anything explaining her extreme force sensibility would have been better than what we got, which is that she simply is. I'm seriously hoping the hand clone theory turns up to be true, that would give some small amount of sense to her character in the grand scheme of the series.

The whole "the Jedi are not supposed to have kids" mantra only applied to the Jedi Order, which was abolished by the end of Revenge of the Sith, it doesn't apply to force users in general.

cathou:
The knights of Ren, could very well still be in the story. all the movie was on Snoke's ship, maybe they are traiing elsewhere, maybe they are on missions elsewhere, maybe they stay in their capital...

Considering Abrams is taking back the series for the next installment, I think that might be possible, but it's pretty apparent that Johnson simply didn't give a damn and completely ignored them for Episode 8 at least, which meshes poorly with the "grand scheme of things" aspect of Star Wars.

cathou:
Phasma, i admit, she is a let down. she could have more things to do. i think Hux should have stayed in space, and Kylo and Phasma directing the attack on the ground, keeping her alive for another movie.

Hux should have been a one-off character, as far as I am concerned. To turn the Nazi analogue into a comic relief feels distasteful and tonally inconsistent, considering he's responsible for the death of billions.

cathou:
Snoke, well, he had is role. he corrupted Kylo, he put in place the first order, and get killed. why i should need more ? i mean, take the OT. after return of the jedi, we know as much about the Emperor than we know about Snoke. all the Emperor or even the Empire backstory was never truly explain the the OT. and nobody got mad about it...

I don't think you can compare the Original Trilogy with the Sequel Trilogy here. For one, the Emperor existed in a complete vacuum, in a self-contained universe we were still exploring and not entirely knowledgeable about, we didn't really need to know more about him, because we relatively know as much about him as we know about the universe. We know the Empire is evil, we it's led by a powerful force user, we know there's a Rebellion, and that's pretty much it, it all works by itself. By comparison, we know an absurd amount about everything that surrounds the events that came before the Sequel Trilogy due to everything we learned in the original trilogy, the prequel trilogy, and even the extended universe. We still know nothing of how the First Order operates, or why the Rebellion became the Resistance, where Snoke comes from, or how he came into power, or what is relation with what came before is. He's too important in the grand scheme of things to be left a complete, ultimately pointless mystery. It could have worked within a new intellectual property, but it falls flat on its face in Star Wars.

Not only that, but they're treated differently narratively too, the Emperor is built up to be the ultimate evil throughout the OT, and his death is the climax of the whole series, leading to the redemption and death of Anakin Skywalker, it's poignant, and it has meaning narratively. Snoke on the other hand is killed unceremoniously and anti-climatically by the end of the second installment of the series, it doesn't bring closure, only confusion as to what is supposed to come next.

cathou:

Sonmi:

The complaints about Rey being a Sue are worse this time around because people trusted that her hypercompetence would be explained by the second movie, that all of the mystery surrounding her was simply one of the classic Abrams ploy. Johnson took over though, and scrapped pretty much everything Abrams had set-up... Rey's backstory, the Knights of Ren, Captain Phasma, Supreme Leader Snoke, they've all been thrashed, leaving no proper explanation for Rey being... well, Rey.

Seriously, i would be more pissed if Rey was a Skywalker, a Solo or a Kenobi. She a nobody, the force activate her power to balance Kylo Ren, i like that explanation actually. I think i said it before, but Jedi are not suppose to have kids, so why everyone have decided that to be powerfull she needed to be a Skywalker.

The knights of Ren, could very well still be in the story. all the movie was on Snoke's ship, maybe they are traiing elsewhere, maybe they are on missions elsewhere, maybe they stay in their capital...

Phasma, i admit, she is a let down. she could have more things to do. i think Hux should have stayed in space, and Kylo and Phasma directing the attack on the ground, keeping her alive for another movie.

Snoke, well, he had is role. he corrupted Kylo, he put in place the first order, and get killed. why i should need more ? i mean, take the OT. after return of the jedi, we know as much about the Emperor than we know about Snoke. all the Emperor or even the Empire backstory was never truly explain the the OT. and nobody got mad about it...

I agree.

Kyrian007:
That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

I feel the need to interject - saying that a character's a mary sue is criticism, not sexism. And as far as I'm concerned it's never going to be sexism. Please stop coming here in bad faith and poisoning the well by morally condemning people with valid criticisms.

Also I guess I should share my opinion on the movie - it was better than TFA, and probably better than the prequels. I'm not sure at this point. The Finn subplot went nowhere and actively made things worse, and the fact that this didn't affect Finn at all, when he even says "it was all worth it" at some point, is even more off-putting.

And then there was the humor. Out of tone, too frequent, and actively made the experience worse. Disney pls.

There's plenty more flaws, but these two are the major ones and I won't nitpick.

Great film.

Loved how they advanced Luke's character and Kylo's. Finn's arc is a little weak and he should have died at the end, but hey, maybe they want an excuse to have the death toll rise in the next film.

I've heard people say that it was packed with some of the worst Star Wars moments and some of the best Star Wars moments, and I think that's right on the money. But for me, there are two kinds of films. There are films where I'm constantly thinking of little things that bother me after I see them, and films where I'm constantly yammering about stuff I liked in the film.

The Last Jedi is the latter. I'm honestly impressed by how well Rian Johnson directed this one, and I'm eager to see his new trilogy.

It still amazes me how people believe quarter-billion dollar, focus-grouped blockbusters are a medium in which to express a yen for unequivocal personal expression and radical social change.

"Fight the power by giving us more of your money! Yeah, you're really sticking it to us 1% fat cats! Isn't greed and capitalism the worst? BUYPORGSBUYPORGSBUYPORGSBUYPORGS"

I have a good feeling my new strip club Spread'em will really be appreciated as the premier venue for nuanced discourse on the commodification of women in modern society and I'm so glad to have been sponsored by Hummer in our mutual effort to raise awareness on responsible carbon emission!

How is this any less eye-roll-inducingly cynical than Pepsi equating fighting police brutality with sharing a cola?

There were a few things that definitely bothered me and the casino part was kind of boring. I also don't like Ren's arc. But it was better than I expected. I was actually genuinely thrilled at a few points, which I haven't been for a long time watching Star Wars. The cinematography was great. It made me aware that I need to get a giant television and sound system at some point. If I had to score it, right now I'm thinking 7/10.

Ezekiel:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Elite_Praetorian_Guard

(They're not the Knights of Ren.)

Dalsyne:

Kyrian007:
That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

I feel the need to interject - saying that a character's a mary sue is criticism, not sexism. And as far as I'm concerned it's never going to be sexism. Please stop coming here in bad faith and poisoning the well by morally condemning people with valid criticisms.

Maybe there was a time when that was true, but it really isn't any more. Its a shield. Crying little manchildren screaming about mary sue and pandering just because someone dares to write a story about someone other than a man and makes them actually good at something. No gender, no nationality, no race is OWED any part. Any complaint based on gender is just the mewling of triggered morons.

Kyrian007:

Dalsyne:

Kyrian007:
That's EXACTLY my point. It wouldn't be a problem. They aren't making it a gender issue, they just wrote a story. The people crying about "mary sue" and "pandering to Feminists" are making it about gender.

I feel the need to interject - saying that a character's a mary sue is criticism, not sexism. And as far as I'm concerned it's never going to be sexism. Please stop coming here in bad faith and poisoning the well by morally condemning people with valid criticisms.

Maybe there was a time when that was true, but it really isn't any more. Its a shield. Crying little manchildren screaming about mary sue and pandering just because someone dares to write a story about someone other than a man and makes them actually good at something. No gender, no nationality, no race is OWED any part. Any complaint based on gender is just the mewling of triggered morons.

How did the obvious part that MS criticizm isn't about gender went over your head? Get it through your narrow mind that it's just collocation in English, language overwhemingly foreign to everyone discussing things on internet. Adequote synonyms in other languages describing mary sue criticism aren't gendered at all... ._.

In general meaning is that writer tried to put in so much pathos in character, so hard, that it made said creation unreal and grotesque, outlandish, out of place, irrationaly omnipotent - surprisingly out of character.
Would be easier to communicate it in other language. I personally would reframe it in English to much older denominatio - that being baroque style - concentrating too much on form and detail and falling flat when it comes to actual tenor.

Depicting and piling up amazing feats, abilities and achievements but when you start looking into it and asking core questions such as how? why? what for? it just falls apart. Its an old, discredited and already recognised centuries ago as essence of shoddiness/trashiness(?) form of art. In one of other languages I know it's called roughly translating 'deer on a rut'.
As I wrote before all the pretense and none of substance.

Jamcie Kerbizz:

Kyrian007:

Dalsyne:
I feel the need to interject - saying that a character's a mary sue is criticism, not sexism. And as far as I'm concerned it's never going to be sexism. Please stop coming here in bad faith and poisoning the well by morally condemning people with valid criticisms.

Maybe there was a time when that was true, but it really isn't any more. Its a shield. Crying little manchildren screaming about mary sue and pandering just because someone dares to write a story about someone other than a man and makes them actually good at something. No gender, no nationality, no race is OWED any part. Any complaint based on gender is just the mewling of triggered morons.

How did the obvious part that MS criticizm isn't about gender went over your head? Get it through your narrow mind that it's just collocation in English, language overwhemingly foreign to everyone discussing things on internet. Adequote synonyms in other languages describing mary sue criticism aren't gendered at all... ._.

In general meaning is that writer tried to put in so much pathos in character, so hard, that it made said creation unreal and grotesque, outlandish, out of place, irrationaly omnipotent - surprisingly out of character.
Would be easier to communicate it in other language. I personally would reframe it in English to much older denominatio - that being baroque style - concentrating too much on form and detail and falling flat when it comes to actual tenor.

Depicting and piling up amazing feats, abilities and achievements but when you start looking into it and asking core questions such as how? why? what for? it just falls apart. Its an old, discredited and already recognised centuries ago as essence of shoddiness/trashiness(?) form of art. In one of other languages I know it's called roughly translating 'deer on a rut'.
As I wrote before all the pretense and none of substance.

It didn't go over my head, its shield bs. If "mary sue" isn't about gender and its just a colloquialism... then why is it a gendered term AT ALL? "Wow, Rey's character ark is hackneyed, cliche, shoddy, trashy, deer on a rut" you're right, plenty of ways to describe it. Just based on the arguments I've seen online here and in other places... "mary sue" is a colloquialism/accusation ONLY used by the redpiller idiots or their ilk. Defense of the term is just deflection. "Oh, I'm not racist just because I call _____ people _____. That word goes back to yadda yadda whatever shield bs." I've never personally seen the term "mary sue" used by anyone who DIDN'T turn out to have a problem with the gender of the person in question. It may only have been a part of their issue with the character, it even may have accompanied legitimate arguments about character development... but its always a part.

I guess in summation, words have meaning and connotation. And some of that is unavoidable. A person can't call another a Nazi and then when called out on it come back and claim that what they meant was the "some other organization that called themselves Nazi's long before WW2" the deflection doesn't matter because everyone knows what the accusation was. "Mary sue" is just like that, I know what someone means when they use that accusation. I know what they are arguing about and why. And I tend to just dismiss it because of the inherent worthlessness of that worldview. Usually ignore, I just got kind of drawn into it here. I'm thinking I'll go back to ignore it.

Kyrian007:

Jamcie Kerbizz:

Kyrian007:
Maybe there was a time when that was true, but it really isn't any more. Its a shield. Crying little manchildren screaming about mary sue and pandering just because someone dares to write a story about someone other than a man and makes them actually good at something. No gender, no nationality, no race is OWED any part. Any complaint based on gender is just the mewling of triggered morons.

How did the obvious part that MS criticizm isn't about gender went over your head? Get it through your narrow mind that it's just collocation in English, language overwhemingly foreign to everyone discussing things on internet. Adequote synonyms in other languages describing mary sue criticism aren't gendered at all... ._.

In general meaning is that writer tried to put in so much pathos in character, so hard, that it made said creation unreal and grotesque, outlandish, out of place, irrationaly omnipotent - surprisingly out of character.
Would be easier to communicate it in other language. I personally would reframe it in English to much older denominatio - that being baroque style - concentrating too much on form and detail and falling flat when it comes to actual tenor.

Depicting and piling up amazing feats, abilities and achievements but when you start looking into it and asking core questions such as how? why? what for? it just falls apart. Its an old, discredited and already recognised centuries ago as essence of shoddiness/trashiness(?) form of art. In one of other languages I know it's called roughly translating 'deer on a rut'.
As I wrote before all the pretense and none of substance.

It didn't go over my head, its shield bs. If "mary sue" isn't about gender and its just a colloquialism... then why is it a gendered term AT ALL? "Wow, Rey's character ark is hackneyed, cliche, shoddy, trashy, deer on a rut" you're right, plenty of ways to describe it. Just based on the arguments I've seen online here and in other places... "mary sue" is a colloquialism/accusation ONLY used by the redpiller idiots or their ilk. Defense of the term is just deflection. "Oh, I'm not racist just because I call _____ people _____. That word goes back to yadda yadda whatever shield bs." I've never personally seen the term "mary sue" used by anyone who DIDN'T turn out to have a problem with the gender of the person in question. It may only have been a part of their issue with the character, it even may have accompanied legitimate arguments about character development... but its always a part.

It's a badly written character. MS is just a simplification people use. You argue over colloquialism and its negative English language rooted or re-branded connotations? O-K propose different names to describe symptoms of badly written character I listed and I'll happily use these (even though I don't recall myself using the MS collocation, other than someone already bringing it up to discussion, because to me it just feels odd as a term).
Understand, that most people don't care for this colloquialism. These are just words in foreign language. They don't use it because they are 'redpilled' they use it because meaning covers issues they have with character and because so many other people also use that.
Also the 2nd part of your reasoning is horridly unsound. You project demeanour of people using collocation on the words and the meaning themselves. Then you seem to reflect that demeanour on any person that uses this collocation. That is irrational.

Problem you seem to have and try to deflect instead of addressing it, is that Rey and Holdo are badly written and that some people who don't want to see female characters at all, can revel in this fact going a-ha-ha about it. Just by saying yeah they overdid some of aspects of their characters and didn't think through other would instantly grant you win on all ends:
# shut the fuck up any, actual women hater, they now can either go out on a nut case 'it's because of their gender rant' or leave since you agreed on merits of the critique
# strengten feedback to writers, do the f-ing better job next time
# open up strong case to argue personal taste - aka you aknowledge shortcomings but still enjoyed it (so deal with it)

Jamcie Kerbizz:
Problem you seem to have and try to deflect instead of addressing it, is that Rey and Holdo are badly written and that some people who don't want to see female characters at all, can revel in this fact going a-ha-ha about it. Just by saying yeah they overdid some of aspects of their characters and didn't think through other would instantly grant you win on all ends:
# shut the fuck up any, actual women hater, they now can either go out on a nut case 'it's because of their gender rant' or leave since you agreed on merits of the critique
# strengten feedback to writers, do the f-ing better job next time
# open up strong case to argue personal taste - aka you aknowledge shortcomings but still enjoyed it (so deal with it)

Sorry, that wasn't what the argument was becoming. I wasn't acknowledging it and got sidetracked with the whole Mary Sue accusation. Let's put that aside for a second and just get back to the Last Jedi.

I wouldn't argue at all that Rey and Holdo's characters could have been handled better. I didn't have a problem introducing Laura Dern's Holdo into the series... what I don't see is why

And I did argue about Rey, clearly she's meant to be a young Luke parallel... and is in a lot of ways. Frankly the biggest difference is she whines a lot less. Think about the most quotable characters in Star Wars... really in ANY "chosen one scenario." Is it Luke? Nope, generally its Vader, Kenobi, Han, and Yoda. Same with Ani in the prequels. Luke is easily more of the fan insert character. A more generic, normal personality that the audience can self insert into to interact with the cooler, better written, more quotable characters, and awesome fantasy scenario. Rey seems to be the same (to me anyway,) so I guess I'm not expecting her to be quite as well-written and don't fault her character or the writers. Lucas did much the same with Luke. The Wachowskis did it with Neo. How interesting was Frodo compared to Aragorn? On the other hand some fans aren't seeing Rey in the same light. Maybe they are having trouble relating to her the same way they could identify with Luke (for whatever reason.)

Kyrian007:

Jamcie Kerbizz:
Problem you seem to have and try to deflect instead of addressing it, is that Rey and Holdo are badly written and that some people who don't want to see female characters at all, can revel in this fact going a-ha-ha about it. Just by saying yeah they overdid some of aspects of their characters and didn't think through other would instantly grant you win on all ends:
# shut the fuck up any, actual women hater, they now can either go out on a nut case 'it's because of their gender rant' or leave since you agreed on merits of the critique
# strengten feedback to writers, do the f-ing better job next time
# open up strong case to argue personal taste - aka you aknowledge shortcomings but still enjoyed it (so deal with it)

Sorry, that wasn't what the argument was becoming. I wasn't acknowledging it and got sidetracked with the whole Mary Sue accusation. Let's put that aside for a second and just get back to the Last Jedi.

I wouldn't argue at all that Rey and Holdo's characters could have been handled better. I didn't have a problem introducing Laura Dern's Holdo into the series... what I don't see is why

And I did argue about Rey, clearly she's meant to be a young Luke parallel... and is in a lot of ways. Frankly the biggest difference is she whines a lot less. Think about the most quotable characters in Star Wars... really in ANY "chosen one scenario." Is it Luke? Nope, generally its Vader, Kenobi, Han, and Yoda. Same with Ani in the prequels. Luke is easily more of the fan insert character. A more generic, normal personality that the audience can self insert into to interact with the cooler, better written, more quotable characters, and awesome fantasy scenario. Rey seems to be the same (to me anyway,) so I guess I'm not expecting her to be quite as well-written and don't fault her character or the writers. Lucas did much the same with Luke. The Wachowskis did it with Neo. How interesting was Frodo compared to Aragorn? On the other hand some fans aren't seeing Rey in the same light. Maybe they are having trouble relating to her the same way they could identify with Luke (for whatever reason.)

Well I'd add to Holdo and Rey and the movie in general, timeline. Why not add more time between events and flesh out the whole story by just hinting what could have happened/did happen during this time. I think a lot of characters, development were written so poorly because there is absolutely no time to 'do them' and there is plethora of them, yet they still keep on introducing more (Holdo) and tying in old established characters in mischaracterised scenes and abrupt demise.

Luke is whiny, because that was part of his written character development. Transition from simpleton on backwater world that got pulled into middle of things (and fate simultaniously handed him pats on the back and slaps in the face), through being a little but#&%rt b#$ch about what's going on around him, till emerging as a real hero at the end of a journey (no longer accidental, naive, dumb and whiny). It is a fan service in a way. It's someone really likeable/relatable because he kept his innocent faith in other people and himself.

If Rey is ment to be Luke, they should have made her more like a nobody from nowhere she is, make her act this way, ie. example with droids. Luke's is a redneck and has a redneck (practical) approach to things. Droid broke up out of misuse? Next! Oh droid doesn't work as it should? Lets wipe it clean and restart. Rey is a scavenger, child who grew up with no parents in unforgiving enviroment. You don't develop subtelties when you struggle for necessities that's just luxury you don't have. Instead they made her act like stranded princes (nobility and subtelty of demeanour), CCQ specialist and force prodigy in one.
I mean even that could be salvaged, eg. (my English sucks but bear with me)

They could explain in story that Kylo slipping into the darkness established force link with Rey slipping into mundane cruelty of reality crashing down on betrayed child. Sort of meld of conciousness. Everything he learns about the force, she does as well (subconciously), every combat experience he got she has, every attrocity, doubt etc. everything subconciously shapes her as well.
That link shaped her, that link is a source of things which are brought up by subconciousness and emanate when she needs it, things come naturally. On the other hand she and her actions and experiences shape him. Her experiences, views, strength of spirit and good nature despite shite surrounding her, hold him on the surface. Don't let him fall completely into the darkness. He isn't as strong in the force as her so he can't corrupt her. At the same time her influence prevents him from reaching full dark side potential. He struggles, seem to be torn emotionally, act like being possessed not fully understanding why, unaware what is going on.

They could then spin the story after their initial meeting, confrontation and emergance of the link. Have Luke unearth this on one side and snoke on the other. Take it wherever they please from there.
It's not amazing backstory and not amazing writing but it's there and explains why characters act the way they do, why they can do some of the things at all etc.

As to Holdo, Rose, most of TLJ 'story' really. They should have never added them and use this screen time to see off old cast (Leia, Luke, Ackbar) properly. Or introduce and focus on them while jumping few years and just do the 'slide show' goodbye to them (few scenes). Rey burning Luke's body affter (supposedly) he spent these last few years passing his heritage onto her on the island. Ackbar and Leia going down in lost battle while Holdo proves herself by rescuing whatever forces, men and resources were left etc. Or even keep Holdo being a complete distaster (just commit to that) and failing terribly while Rose, Finn and Poe salvage things. Why not depict decisively (and deliberately) incompetent leader in charge of good guys for a change. It does happen pretty often in reality and is pretty relatable, eh?

I liked it. I'm conflicted, but overall I liked it. It was a very clever film, both by itself and in the context of the Star Wars canon. It was almost too clever; its fervent effort to deconstruct everything Star Wars-y led to several small anti-climaxes.

Uh, okay. Spoiler-free rundown. I don't think anyone is going to go into this thread without having already seen the film, but whatever.

Oh, and on the Rey Mary Sue debate: honestly, guys. She's not that bad. She wasn't that bad in TFA, she's not that bad now.

bastardofmelbourne:

This is actually one of the parts where I felt the movie actually kept the Resistance looking like a proper military force. Poe is a Commander, demoted to Captain. That means that at best he's a wing commander responsible for some half dozen ships and pilots. As a Captain he's the lead wingman in a fighter pair. Why should this guy, hero or not, be briefed on a plan that's devised by an Admiral (some six or seven ranks above the commander) and hinges on secrecy to be successful? For all the Resistance knows, there's a mole on their ships that's feeding the First Order their location and that's how they got tracked.

By brushing Poe aside and telling him to suck it up, Huldo is actually acting in a way that I'd expect a military leader to act. They aren't going to brief every random joe in their organisation personally on the grand strategy of the war, they will tell those people to get back in line and wait for orders. This also makes Poe's arc and the way it is played a nice deconstruction of the Ace trope. Poe might be the Ace, but the Resistance is still a military organisation with a clear chain of command and they are not making exceptions just because that one guy is a damn good pilot.

Kyrian007:
"mary sue" is a colloquialism/accusation ONLY used by the redpiller idiots or their ilk.

I'll tell that to my feminist female acquaintances who've been using it for more than 20 years online.
To be fair, one could say that Luke wasn't far from a Mary Sue back in A New Hope - you need at least Empire to redeem his character arc, otherwise he's just a trope -, and Poe at times has some plot armour and things going his way when they definitely shouldn't.
There's still a big contrast between Rey "I own the Force despite not knowing about it and never training" and, for instance, Jyn from Rogue One, who ended up dying.

Sonmi:
By comparison, we know an absurd amount about everything that surrounds the events that came before the Sequel Trilogy due to everything we learned in the original trilogy, the prequel trilogy, and even the extended universe. We still know nothing of how the First Order operates, or why the Rebellion became the Resistance, where Snoke comes from, or how he came into power, or what is relation with what came before is. He's too important in the grand scheme of things to be left a complete, ultimately pointless mystery. It could have worked within a new intellectual property, but it falls flat on its face in Star Wars.

Exactly, Snoke fails because it's a sequel trilogy instead of a first trilogy or a prequel.
But really, the biggest issue with Snoke isn't that he's the leader of the bad guys. Hux is, we know nothing about him, but can easily presume he's a military guy from the leftover of the Imperial army; you don't need to be told, it's pretty much obvious and doesn't require lengthy explanations: we know the Imperial Army was huge and most survived the battle of Endor. On the other hand, Snoke is some kind of civilian, and more crucially is a very powerful Force-user. That's the catch: Luke was supposed to be the last Force-user at the end of Return of the Jedi, the Sith were all dead, the Jedi only had Luke and ghosts; apart from him, there were only force-sensitive people around. At least, it's the logical assumption one can make, because if someone as powerful as Snoke was around during ROTJ, odds are that Vader or the Emperor would've noticed, would've dealt with him, or recruited him, and would've mentioned him sooner or later. So from which hole did Snoke crawled from, because he wasn't formed by Luke? Did he find all of this on his own and got his force powers and went to the Dark Side all alone in some remote corner of the Galaxy? Heck, even mentioning he was a Sith Lord put into cryostasis centuries ago might have worked better than nothing.

Gethsemani:

This is actually one of the parts where I felt the movie actually kept the Resistance looking like a proper military force. Poe is a Commander, demoted to Captain. That means that at best he's a wing commander responsible for some half dozen ships and pilots. As a Captain he's the lead wingman in a fighter pair. Why should this guy, hero or not, be briefed on a plan that's devised by an Admiral (some six or seven ranks above the commander) and hinges on secrecy to be successful? For all the Resistance knows, there's a mole on their ships that's feeding the First Order their location and that's how they got tracked.

By brushing Poe aside and telling him to suck it up, Huldo is actually acting in a way that I'd expect a military leader to act. They aren't going to brief every random joe in their organisation personally on the grand strategy of the war, they will tell those people to get back in line and wait for orders. This also makes Poe's arc and the way it is played a nice deconstruction of the Ace trope. Poe might be the Ace, but the Resistance is still a military organisation with a clear chain of command and they are not making exceptions just because that one guy is a damn good pilot.

Yes, it's something i see a lot in the critics. why she didnt tell Poe about her plan ? Why would she, i'm pretty sure that a secret retreat plan desing by any army would be communicated bellow high command ? Also, at that point they have no idea how the First Order is tracking them, the could been some traitors inside their ranks.

bastardofmelbourne:

Since, carrie Fisher is dead, and if you look at the state of the resistance at the end of the movie, i'm very sure that there will be a 10 years gap in the story between 8 and 9. and Leia would just... died during that lapse of time.

Gethsemani:

By brushing Poe aside and telling him to suck it up, Huldo is actually acting in a way that I'd expect a military leader to act. They aren't going to brief every random joe in their organisation personally on the grand strategy of the war, they will tell those people to get back in line and wait for orders. This also makes Poe's arc and the way it is played a nice deconstruction of the Ace trope. Poe might be the Ace, but the Resistance is still a military organisation with a clear chain of command and they are not making exceptions just because that one guy is a damn good pilot.

"I like him."

These three words torch this plotline. Holdo and Leia ultimately treating Poe like some loveable cad renders the movie's hand-wringing over his recklessness hollow lip-service. Poe should have been court-martialed for his starting blunder then executed for the shit he pulls later. Instead, the movie shrugs it off and "learned a lesson" is supposed to serve as sufficient consequence despite him being poised as de facto resistance leader.

Also, this seems an odd place to insert real-world implications because it fails what I'd call the "What would Captain America do?" test. I know, I know, "Subversion!", but the vocabulary of modern blockbusters don't gear us to lean on, "Acquiesce to authority" (I mean, fuck, one of the most prominent protagonist descriptors in Star Wars is REBEL) because they usually invoke tropes like "Follow your heart" and "Spy/Infiltrated by Hydra" and the "Oh, by the way, this new character is super important" way Laura Dern's character is introduced doesn't cement her as authoritative when she appears to be dithering. In this instance, the audience is supposed to go, "Yeah, why didn't he obey Star War's dubious military hierarchy when it appeared everyone would die if he did nothing?" because Poe Damaran being a mansplaining ass is now the worst thing a hero can be? Again, I'm Team "Shoot that motherfucker!"

The spine of this film hinges on Holdo displaying passive-aggressive leadership because Poe's a dick.

Gethsemani:
snip

Kyrian007:
"mary sue" is a colloquialism/accusation ONLY used by the redpiller idiots or their ilk.

Oh, no no no. Mary Sue is an old, old term in the annals of the Internet. It originally came from parts of the online fanfiction community that were overwhelmingly female, some of whom had an immature tendency to insert idealised versions of themselves into the story so that they could learn magic, hook up with Draco Malfoy, and save the Enterprise from the Decepticons or whatever. It only gained gender implications after asshats started using it as a blunt criticism for any female protagonist who was as skilled or more skilled than a comparable male protagonist.

I mean, it's silly. Yes, Rey is more competent than she has any reason to be, and yes, she has plot armour right up the wazoo. But those are traits common to almost all protagonists, to the point where it's rather the exception for a work of fiction to have a protagonist who flails incompetently and dies anticlimactically. Why is Jon Snow such a good swordsman? Why is Kirk such a great captain? Why is Neo the Chosen One? Why is Walter White so good at making meth and doing crime? Why is Harry Potter so great at Quidditch? Why is John McClane so good at fighting terrorists? I mean, he's a middle-aged cop, he's not some expert terrorist-hunter.

We expect - and want - our protagonists to be exceptionally skilled members of their field because that makes them interesting to watch. And maybe viewers are tired of that; maybe they want a protagonist who has failed, a protagonist who makes mistakes and can't deal with them properly and has to, I don't know, retire to an island in the middle of an ocean-planet and mope. I can't imagine where we'd find such a character, though.

cathou:

Gethsemani:

(...)

Yes, it's something i see a lot in the critics. why she didnt tell Poe about her plan ? Why would she, i'm pretty sure that a secret retreat plan desing by any army would be communicated bellow high command ? Also, at that point they have no idea how the First Order is tracking them, the could been some traitors inside their ranks.

This is holywood rooted misconception. Obedience in army doesn't mean you can order people to commit suicide and they'd listen. That's reserved for brain washed fanatics and cultists.
If that plan really had to be THAT secretive (and lets be honest here, it hasn't), it means high command had to come up with believable phony plan to feed to lower ranks. At no point in military you tell subordinate to fall in line if they don't understand what they are supposed to do. If you want someone to do something and commit to it they need to be informed about achievable end goal (not necesserily actual one, one doesn't even have to exist...), ie. the oldest BS explanation for holding the line being 'hold on we have inbound reinforcements coming any day now', 'hold on, we have a unit attempting to flank and attack the enemy from the rear', 'hold on there is full hospital of wounded being evacuated and we provide cover for them' etc. Believable, empowering men and worth of their sacrifice, bolstering their spirit. Otherwise any intelligent individual just goes f-ck it.

The fall in line/discipline is ment to curb down the i-know-better guys ('heros' like Poe) into following the plan/orders (but you need to give them something in the first place, ie. like otherwise ridiculous hope that they can defeat a planet by shooting at it...). Having said that military doctrine largely changed from blindly following every letter of detailed order to encouraging more creative and flexible approach to adapt and achieve goals set in orders. What Holdo does is exemplary my ego is the size of a barn, disastrous sudo-leadership. Yet movie tries to indoctrinate that as a correct way to go and redeem her with as astronomically stupid martyr scene. Entriety of that despiteunqestionable flare of visuals leaves individuals rising hands above head with what? but why now? why not sooner? why at all? questions.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Stephan Molyneux thinks the new Star Wars is about plight of the white man. If there's one thing conspiracy theorists are good for, it's a laugh.

Disclaimer: I dont have any interest in seeing the new film or any new Disney product for that matter, my thoughts are largely based on Force Awakens and Disney's PG-13 conveyor belt as a whole. Also, fuck Captain America

Now some context for my ramblings:

What I'm about to say about Rey can be largely applied to damn near every Disney/Marvel film released since the first Iron Man.

bastardofmelbourne:

Why is Kirk such a great captain?

Which Kirk? The one who enters Trek with decades of experience and has to rely on his ship, crew and wits to save the day while dealing with his own character flaws? Or the one who is a layabout who spends the film having to grow up in the face of a massive threat, and then must rely on his ship and crew while accepting his flaws?

Why is Neo the Chosen One?

Does that matter in the scope of the film? It's about him living up to the expectations thrust upon him and adapting to having his whole world ripped from under him. This leads to the final act where he has to fight his way up through a building to rescue his mentor (thinking he's just another guy too) and is only able to make it through direct help, the memetic slowdown limbo shot ends with him still being hit and at the Agent's mercy.

Why is Walter White so good at making meth and doing crime?

He's a middle-aged chemistry teacher whose pushed to deal meth because of his impending illness and wanting to leave something for his family.

And if you watch the first season, he's not at all good at crime, the events of the season are about him trying to cope with his illness, and trying to find a way to make money with the one thing he's good at. Now I'm only halfway through the third season, but so far the shows largely been about how he becomes the drug lord and slips further away from his original self.

Why is John McClane so good at fighting terrorists? I mean, he's a middle-aged cop, he's not some expert terrorist-hunter.

Excatly!

He's not a superhero, or Batman or a Jedi. McClane is just a cop who goes to LA for Christmas to see his family. He's then plunged into a subversion of an action movie plot and has to stay alive, he had no intention of stopping them. The first thing he does once Gruber makes his play is to run away and call the police.

His situation is summed up in one exchange:

"Sir, this is a line reserved for emergencies."

"No fucking shit lady do I sound like I'm trying to order a pizza!?"

That last line with Willis' delivery tells you everything about how scared he is and how he knows he stands no chance in a direct fight, remember by this point he only killed the first mook by luck and largely spends the second act of the film trying to get the proper authorities in, only stepping in to be what little of an annoyance to Gruber he can. The setup for the last act is him pulling glass out of his feet while he tries to keep focused on getting Holly and the hostages out while being scared out of his mind.

All of these characters in some way have earned the victories they get, but Rey largely gets handed them on a plate. She can fight, fend for herself, fly a ship, fix a ship, ballroom dance and much much more! When the force is introduced to her, she is almost immediately able to do what only Obi-Wan could do in the original film and is on par with Luke at the opening of Jedi. The film tells us she is the underdog, but the film shows us that everything she has to deal with is a minor annoyance at best, and so her journey is a farce. It's emblematic of modern blockbusters I find.

BeetleManiac:
HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Stephan Molyneux thinks the new Star Wars is about plight of the white man. If there's one thing conspiracy theorists are good for, it's a laugh.

"We're going to be replaced! Just look at this cast of heroes that all answer to old white people!"

Ninjamedic:

When the force is introduced to her, she is almost immediately able to do what only Obi-Wan could do in the original film and is on par with Luke at the opening of Jedi.

Just a nitpick, in the original film we are introduced to only two experienced force users. Obi-Wan and Vader. Vader has absolutely know use for the mind trick when he can just force choke anyone that disagrees with him or physical crush their throat one-handed.
In Empire we are introduced to Yoda, a new experienced force user. Yoda is another person who has no need for the mind trick at that point in his life, seeing as he was training Luke to use the force.
By Return of the Jedi Emperor Palpatine is shown to be an experienced force user, and another person who has no need for the mind trick (being an evil Emperor and having force lightning and all).
So for all we know, going by the original movies, the Jedi mind trick might be one of the very first things that a Jedi learns to do. There is no evidence to suggest that the mind trick is a high-tier force power that only grand-masters can preform. The mind trick can be the force equivalent of breaking a board in martial arts training (i.e. something that nine and ten year-olds can pull off).

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