A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

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I find it hilarious that we're going through the exact same process as the reception to the prequels. The prequels had swell reviews at the time of their release. And people fanboyed over them and called the sizeable minority criticizing them to be cynics and they're just children's movies and shit. Critical and public opinion didn't swing around on the prequels until the last one.

I know the end to this ride we're on, and I'm psyched to see it happen :3

My own personal opinion on the subject in question? TLJ is this year's worst anime.

My own personal opinion on the subject in question? TLJ is this year's worst anime.[/quote]

Does Black Clover just not exist in your world or what?

SupahEwok:

I know the end to this ride we're on, and I'm psyched to see it happen :3

Given the protection from criticism and dissenting taste Disney has enjoyed for the past decade and beyond, I doubt there will be a revision. Even looking at this thread people will still cling to a franchise even if they know it's gone bad just to spite someone online or whatever.

Having just got back from seeing it myself, my personal thoughts in brief are;

CyanCat47:

My own personal opinion on the subject in question? TLJ is this year's worst anime.

Does Black Clover just not exist in your world or what?

Black Clover didn't have $250 million and access to the most experienced entertainment media company and talent in the world. I find the crash of a paper airplane to be less of a shock and spectacle compared to the crash of an airliner.

Anyone else follows surfacing information that Disney demands up 70% (sic!) of movie theater revenue for this movie and black lists/bans journalists that gave poor reviews of TFA, TLJ or dare to write about their extortion practices?
Seems like EA and Disney got inspired by Mos Eisley geist tad too much.

twistedmic:

Ninjamedic:

When the force is introduced to her, she is almost immediately able to do what only Obi-Wan could do in the original film and is on par with Luke at the opening of Jedi.

Just a nitpick, in the original film we are introduced to only two experienced force users. Obi-Wan and Vader. Vader has absolutely know use for the mind trick when he can just force choke anyone that disagrees with him or physical crush their throat one-handed.
In Empire we are introduced to Yoda, a new experienced force user. Yoda is another person who has no need for the mind trick at that point in his life, seeing as he was training Luke to use the force.
By Return of the Jedi Emperor Palpatine is shown to be an experienced force user, and another person who has no need for the mind trick (being an evil Emperor and having force lightning and all).
So for all we know, going by the original movies, the Jedi mind trick might be one of the very first things that a Jedi learns to do. There is no evidence to suggest that the mind trick is a high-tier force power that only grand-masters can preform. The mind trick can be the force equivalent of breaking a board in martial arts training (i.e. something that nine and ten year-olds can pull off).

Given the jedi code and world view if mind trick was that easy to practise as you imply, then they wouldn't have any need to fight things out with anyone except select few species. So no, your deliberation makes no sense, unless jedi are just hypocrites who claim they cheerish peace and all life and refrain from violence whenever they can but instead secretly they revel in bloodbaths and conflicts they could have avoided at the snap of their fingers.

Jamcie Kerbizz:
Anyone else follows surfacing information that Disney demands up 70% (sic!) of movie theater revenue for this movie and black lists/bans journalists that gave poor reviews of TFA, TLJ or dare to write about their extortion practices?

Bans them from what, exactly?

bastardofmelbourne:

Jamcie Kerbizz:
Anyone else follows surfacing information that Disney demands up 70% (sic!) of movie theater revenue for this movie and black lists/bans journalists that gave poor reviews of TFA, TLJ or dare to write about their extortion practices?

Bans them from what, exactly?

I would assume it would be press screening and the like. Stuff that professional viewers rely on in order to have reviews up by release

bastardofmelbourne:

Jamcie Kerbizz:
Anyone else follows surfacing information that Disney demands up 70% (sic!) of movie theater revenue for this movie and black lists/bans journalists that gave poor reviews of TFA, TLJ or dare to write about their extortion practices?

Bans them from what, exactly?

Pra-premiere screenings (? not sure how's that called in English) of the movies (so they can write review and it is published when movie starts to be shown in theaters for general public).

Jamcie Kerbizz:
Given the jedi code and world view if mind trick was that easy to practise as you imply, then they wouldn't have any need to fight things out with anyone except select few species. So no, your deliberation makes no sense, unless jedi are just hypocrites who claim they cheerish peace and all life and refrain from violence whenever they can but instead secretly they revel in bloodbaths and conflicts they could have avoided at the snap of their fingers.

Also note that in the original Star Wars Obi-wan says that "The force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."
That implies that the mind trick only really works on the weak-minded. So it is entirely possible, if not probable, that the mind trick has limited uses. Maybe people higher up in government and military organizations have training on how to overcome the mnd trick or other hypnotic suggestions
In Return of the Jedi for example, Luke was able to easily sway Jabba's Majordomo using the mind trick yet Jabba saw through it immediately and berated his Majordomo for falling for the trick.
In The Last Jedi Kylo Ren tried to use the mind trick on Rey, only to immediately dismiss his attempt saying "Of course it wouldn't work on you." (or something to that effect). That shows that even humans can be immune to the mind trick.
The mind trick may be easy to pull off put have so few practical uses that it is rarely used.
For example, it seems fairly easy to learn how to tell time using the sun and your fingers or how to make a sundial to tell time, but there is little use for that skill when they are clocks and watches everywhere.
Writing a check is easy to learn, yet not very necessary with online bill paying and the abundance of credit/debit cards.
Walking a coin across your knuckles might be easy to learn nut has little to no practical use.

Oh man... What a STRANGE Star Wars movie.

I realized it was kinda like in that monkey paw story: except instead getting my wishes horribly wrong, it made them turn out... weirder.

Okay, now that i got most of those out of the way, let's talk about the elephant in the room. Comedy.
SW was always a series that liked to intertwine moments of drama with humour, but this time... eh, two words, "tonal clash" come to mind.
I think i understand people who complain about "marvelization" now. Because it does feel like someone pushed for throwing staple MCU kind of jokes in, without taking differences between those two series(and the theme of this part in particular) into consideration. So many dramatic moments are immediately "difused" with some throwaway line, or scene, not allowing the drama to resound.
And then there's the execution. There were some really funny bits(the ironing scene, you know which one - i laughed, only time during the movie, but at the same time, it felt like something from Spaceballs, not an official SW movie), but about 2/3rd of the jokes felt flat, both to me and the audience, that responded with awkward silence to moments that were clearly meant to be taken as comedic.
And porgs... were about as annoying as i expected. So ewok, not Jar Jar level. That's okay.

I kvetched a lot about this movie, but... i can't really hate it. It was a mess, true, but it was still entertaining enough and so... unexpected, in a way, that i'm really waiting for the conclusion(a step up from the previous huge blockbuster trilogy, that i watched).

The Spoony One crawls out of his hole for this of all things? You missed out on a lot of movies to review in your vlogs, one of them being The Force Awakens.

Anyway Spoony starts with defending Rey being a Mary Sue because people are upset that a Girl is being cool and awesome in a movie.

No you spoony man that is not the point, the point is she was already born awesome rather than working her way up to be awesome, not going through pain and suffering to get where she is.

MrCalavera:

I think i understand people who complain about "marvelization" now. Because it does feel like someone pushed for throwing staple MCU kind of jokes in, without taking differences between those two series(and the theme of this part in particular) into consideration. So many dramatic moments are immediately "difused" with some throwaway line, or scene, not allowing the drama to resound.

And it ruins my immersion into a story and setting, especially with the charcaters because to me it feels like I am not watching characters in a different setting and world, I am just watching actors reading from the lands and cosplaying that are not taking their characters and situation seriously.

I don't see Star Lord from the Guardians of the Galaxy comics, I see Chris Pratt cosplaying and acting himself. The same applies to Iron Man and other things.

Fischgopf:
And are you fucking kidding me? The main cast of these new Movies is a white Female, Asian Female, Black Male and a Latino Male. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that no pandering to special interest groups is going on here and this just incidentally came about in the process of writing the story. Really really really naive.

TIL females are special interest groups.

BTW, you forgot Han and Luke in TFA and TLJ respectively. So the main cast of these new movies is White Female, Asian Female, Black Male, Latino Male, and Normal Person.

Honestly do you guys even read back the shit you write before you hit post?

BloatedGuppy:

BTW, you forgot Han and Luke in TFA and TLJ respectively. So the main cast of these new movies is White Female, Asian Female, Black Male, Latino Male, and Normal Person.

And once again, they all ultimately answer to old white people.

Nobody tell them about 80's cinema.

BloatedGuppy:

Fischgopf:
And are you fucking kidding me? The main cast of these new Movies is a white Female, Asian Female, Black Male and a Latino Male. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that no pandering to special interest groups is going on here and this just incidentally came about in the process of writing the story. Really really really naive.

TIL females are special interest groups.

BTW, you forgot Han and Luke in TFA and TLJ respectively. So the main cast of these new movies is White Female, Asian Female, Black Male, Latino Male, and Normal Person.

Honestly do you guys even read back the shit you write before you hit post?

Nope, they are supporting characters as far as I'm concerned.

Samtemdo8:

MrCalavera:

I think i understand people who complain about "marvelization" now. Because it does feel like someone pushed for throwing staple MCU kind of jokes in, without taking differences between those two series(and the theme of this part in particular) into consideration. So many dramatic moments are immediately "difused" with some throwaway line, or scene, not allowing the drama to resound.

I don't see Star Lord from the Guardians of the Galaxy comics, I see Chris Pratt cosplaying and acting himself. The same applies to Iron Man and other things.

That's okay, but i didn't mean MCU. I meant companies trying to copy MCU, because it works for them. Suicide Squad failed at that, from what i've heard. TLJ is another(though, not as disastrous) example.
It's the "We want the CoD audience" of Hollywood.

Jamcie Kerbizz:

It does feels like TFA set up a stage for 'something'. And then TLJ director took a piss on it, went 'taa-daa' some people laughed and cried 'great joke mate!'. Then Rian Johnson flipped J.J. Abrams, set the stage on fire and left with snark 'try to recover from that b#&ch' remark.

Pictured Abrams finding about TLJ after he agreed to come back and film the conclusion to this entire thing:
image

MrCalavera:
That's okay, but i didn't mean MCU. I meant companies trying to copy MCU, because it works for them. Suicide Squad failed at that, from what i've heard. TLJ is another(though, not as disastrous) example.
It's the "We want the CoD audience" of Hollywood.

In this way you guys are not wrong. They're all competing for the same slice of the same audience. Marvel's got a lot of momentum after 10 years of movies. But they don't want to try anything that strays too far from formula for fear they'll be held responsible for a bunch of people losing a lot of money.

Samtemdo8:

The Spoony One crawls out of his hole for this of all things? You missed out on a lot of movies to review in your vlogs, one of them being The Force Awakens.

Anyway Spoony starts with defending Rey being a Mary Sue because people are upset that a Girl is being cool and awesome in a movie.

No you spoony man that is not the point, the point is she was already born awesome rather than working her way up to be awesome, not going through pain and suffering to get where she is.

Even though Rey did grow up and had to figure things out all by herself. She wasn't born awesome. She did work her way up to be who she was.

Fischgopf:

Why does Rey, a character with little to no training and seemingly no special ancestory to explain it, have better feats then these Characters? Why can she beat a trained Dark Side User (From this special Bloodline to boot)when under similar, arguably even more favorable to them circumstances, Luke and Anakin could not?

I must have missed the any point at all where Luke fought a Darth Vader that had been shot in the stomach by an anti-material rifle and wounded by Han Solo first.

Why can she, with no prior explanation of how to even do it, force pull a lightsaber from a significant distance and great speed to herself when Luke struggled to accomplish pulling one to himself that was merely a few feet away despite the fact the he was further along in his training?

Where he was concussed by a Wampanoag and hung upside down, where the sum total of his training was "block these blaster bolts" and "just feel the shot"?

I'm perfectly fine to hear a answer. The problem is that no answer has been given and they seem to now be actively dodging it, which only makes the "She's a Mary Sue" argument stronger. Do you know why that is? Because it's becoming increasingly likely that she is by her very design.

I like how people making the Mary Sue arguments completely dismiss mitigating circumstances and avoid talking about the times the supposed Sue completely fucks up.

But I've also had this conversation a dozen times, so feel free to claim victory.

Back on topic over here, I liked it. There were a few odd momements (the chase scene in the Casino Town came far too close to something out of the prequels for my liking). There were some convienant plot holes and Finn's sidequest went preciesly nowhere, but I still enjoyed it, moreso than TFA and definitly more than Rogue One.

What I don't see is how it's worse than the prequels. Anyone who says that should be forced to rewatch those atrocities; remind themselves that the sequel triology couldn't possibly be worse than those movies.

altnameJag:
I like how people making the Mary Sue arguments completely dismiss mitigating circumstances and avoid talking about the times the supposed Sue completely fucks up.

But I've also had this conversation a dozen times, so feel free to claim victory.

Hasn't stopped you from claiming victory for yourself, hut go ahead and dismiss anyone that holds a different opinion. After all, you can't dislike these franchises anymore as an individual, I must have some ideological or moral failing.

It was an...ambitious movie, especially for a billion dollar corporate franchise. Probably didn't hit everything it was trying for, but I liked it. Most of the casino but was weird fluff, that declaration of love from Rose was a bit weird and certainly unearned if we're talking about romantic love, and where do the Fish Maids live, anyway?

On the other hand, despite its relatively upbeat portrayal at the end of TFA, TLJ kinda proves the Rebublic lost. Star killer base never needed that second shot. That second shot was going to be pure gravy. The scattered remnants of the Republic Fleet, now leaderless and fragmented, would've been easy pickings for resurgent remnant Empire forces flocking to the First Order.

Ninjamedic:

altnameJag:
I like how people making the Mary Sue arguments completely dismiss mitigating circumstances and avoid talking about the times the supposed Sue completely fucks up.

But I've also had this conversation a dozen times, so feel free to claim victory.

Hasn't stopped you from claiming victory for yourself, hut go ahead and dismiss anyone that holds a different opinion. After all, you can't dislike these franchises anymore as an individual, I must have some ideological or moral failing.

Dislike whatever you want, I don't care, just don't lie about it. "I don't like Star Wars because XYZ" is fine, "I don't like Star Wars because <demonstrably untrue thing>" is weird and is gonna get pushback.

And I'll dismiss any subjective opinion I want about whether or not somebody like a thing. There doesn't need to be a broad based consensus about if a movie is good. FFS, there's probably people out there who like Pixels. But I'm not going to lie about or misrepresent Pixels because of it.

altnameJag:

Fischgopf:

Why does Rey, a character with little to no training and seemingly no special ancestory to explain it, have better feats then these Characters? Why can she beat a trained Dark Side User (From this special Bloodline to boot)when under similar, arguably even more favorable to them circumstances, Luke and Anakin could not?

I must have missed the any point at all where Luke fought a Darth Vader that had been shot in the stomach by an anti-material rifle and wounded by Han Solo first.

Nope, but he did face Vader with significantly more Training, which isn't hard because Rey hasn't had any at that point and really hasn't had much of any Training even now.

Also, yeah, Kylo is wounded. Kylo is also a Dark Side User who would gain more power from the Pain and Anger over his wound. I guess you must have thought he was punching his wound for shits and giggles? Not to mention that it is now being strongly implied that Kylo has more potential then Luke and with that is likely more powerful in the Force then Vader. And there was also the time when Dooku kicked both Anakins and Obi-Wans teeth in. Both Jedis had so much more training that Rey isn't even worth mentioning in that regard.

And regarding the wound in general...so are we just ignoring that the Force allows one to enhance their own physical properties? Surely I'm not the only one who remembers the shit that both Anakin and ol' Palpi survived in RotS.

Remember, Rey literally thought of all of this as Legends, including the Force.

Why can she, with no prior explanation of how to even do it, force pull a lightsaber from a significant distance and great speed to herself when Luke struggled to accomplish pulling one to himself that was merely a few feet away despite the fact the he was further along in his training?

Where he was concussed by a Wampanoag and hung upside down, where the sum total of his training was "block these blaster bolts" and "just feel the shot"?

Yeah. That is how it went down. Remember, Luke is the Son of Force Jesus and for all intents and purposes is roughly as powerful as Anakin if not more so. Despite having atleast some training and oppurtunity to practice Luke still struggles to acomplish this really minor feat. Rey on the other Hand didn't even know any of these things to be real until but a few Hours before she starts pulling feats right out her ass.

I'm perfectly fine to hear a answer. The problem is that no answer has been given and they seem to now be actively dodging it, which only makes the "She's a Mary Sue" argument stronger. Do you know why that is? Because it's becoming increasingly likely that she is by her very design.

I like how people making the Mary Sue arguments completely dismiss mitigating circumstances and avoid talking about the times the supposed Sue completely fucks up.

I'm having trouble thinking of anything that Rey did that could be considered a fuck up, let alone a complete fuck up. So, what the fuck are you talking about? I can't help but think that whatever example you'll offer will be laughible.

But I've also had this conversation a dozen times, so feel free to claim victory.

You mean kinda like what you are trying to pull right now?

Here's the thing. I know that people like you that pull these weak defenses are doing so BECAUSE Rey is female. I don't care that's she's female, just like I don't care about her being good at piloting or fighting with a Bo Staff. I care about the inconsistency with the Force. I want an explanation because this clearly needs one. You are ok with not having one because "Yay, a Girl!".

But I'm not like you, I'm not going to ignore this because of some misguided ideas that we have to go easy on the poor little female protag. That'd be because, unlike you, I don't expect less of Women.

altnameJag:
Dislike whatever you want, I don't care, just don't lie about it. "I don't like Star Wars because XYZ" is fine, "I don't like Star Wars because <demonstrably untrue thing>" is weird and is gonna get pushback.

Well it's good we have people like you to tell us which is which.

Fischgopf:

Nope, but he did face Vader with significantly more Training, which isn't hard because Rey hasn't had any at that point and really hasn't had much of any Training even now.

Also, yeah, Kylo is wounded. Kylo is also a Dark Side User who would gain more power from the Pain and Anger over his wound. I guess you must have thought he was punching his wound for shits and giggles?

I also notice that when Kyle loses his focus he becomes shit at using the Force. Like, in general. Good Jedi, bad Sith.

Not to mention that it is now being strongly implied that Kylo has more potential then Luke and with that is likely more powerful in the Force then Vader.

And at the same time it's been implied that Rey is Kylo's equal in potential with the Force.

And there was also the time when Dooku kicked both Anakins and Obi-Wans teeth in. Both Jedis had so much more training that Rey isn't even worth mentioning in that regard.

Yeah, Dooku could probably have beaten Kyo and Rey with his eyes closed.

And regarding the wound in general...so are we just ignoring that the Force allows one to enhance their own physical properties? Surely I'm not the only one who remembers the shit that both Anakin and ol' Palpi survived in RotS.

Hell no I'm not ignoring it. It's the only thing keeping Kylo standing after taking a hit that ragdolls fully armored stormtroopers, physics be damned. He should be needing a liver transplant.

I'm having trouble thinking of anything that Rey did that could be considered a fuck up, let alone a complete fuck up. So, what the fuck are you talking about? I can't help but think that whatever example you'll offer will be laughible.

I mean, there's that time she completely lost her nerve, started panicking, and ran directly into Kylo to get effortlessly captured. Or that time in TLJ where she


Funny that.

But I've also had this conversation a dozen times, so feel free to claim victory.

You mean kinda like what you are trying to pull right now?

Here's the thing. I know that people like you that pull these weak defenses are doing so BECAUSE Rey is female. I don't care that's she's female, just like I don't care about her being good at piloting or fighting with a Bo Staff. I care about the inconsistency with the Force. I want an explanation because this clearly needs one. You are ok with not having one because "Yay, a Girl!".

But I'm not like you, I'm not going to ignore this because of some misguided ideas that we have to go easy on the poor little female protag. That'd be because, unlike you, I don't expect less of Women.

Oh yeah, it totally makes sense that a random farm kid is good with a blaster and is an expert pilot but a random scavenger kid isn't. Because you care about the consistency of space magic.

The fight with Kylo and Rey vs the red guys is what I wanted this entire trilogy to be.

The hamster penguins, space Leia, and Luke drinking alien tit milk is not.

Also way to make Yoda look worse than he did in the 70's.

Side note: I love the dedication to diversity that is happening in films lately. I wish there were more fictional aliens in these new Star Wars films, but I do like the intentional visible increase in non-white and female characters, even among bit minions on both sides.

Ninjamedic:

altnameJag:
Dislike whatever you want, I don't care, just don't lie about it. "I don't like Star Wars because XYZ" is fine, "I don't like Star Wars because <demonstrably untrue thing>" is weird and is gonna get pushback.

Well it's good we have people like you to tell us which is which.

Having functioning senses and a decent memory helps a lot, yeah.

Don't worry. All things being equal, Kylo is a better fighter than Rey. It's just that in TFA, things were distinctly unequal.

Fischgopf:
snip

I think the broader problem here is that you're demanding consistency in the application of in-universe details from Star Wars, which is a franchise that has never been overly concerned with consistency and has generally been more concerned with doing cool shit.

Like, there are maybe two or three things about the Force that I can say are definitively estabished by Star Wars:

1. It's a vague power derived from life force which can do magic things.
2. One's ability to use the Force is largely determined by one's emotional state, and training and talent are more about reaching that emotional state than anything else.
3. There are "evil" powers exclusively used by bad guys, such as force lightning or force choke, and presumably also "good" powers exclusively used by good guys, though the latter is less well-defined.

Anything else? It's up in the air at any given point in the canon. Like, in the sequel trilogy alone, we've got these unprecedented uses of the Force:

- stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air, by Kylo Ren;
- telepathic interrogation, by Kylo Ren and Snoke;
- interstellar telepathic Skype, by Kylo and Rey;
- interstellar holographic self-projection, by Luke;
- controlling the weather, by Ghost Yoda, and most dramatically...
- surviving the vacuum of space, by Leia.

This is an original sin for Star Wars. In Empire, when Vader stops blaster bolts with his hand, fans wrangled for years over whether that was a Force power (turned out it was) or just Vader having some kind of blaster-proof gauntlet. Because if it was the former, why bother deflecting blaster bolts with your lightsaber? "Who cares?" says George Lucas. "It was cool, so I threw it in."

And the EU was, naturally, even worse; we had Palpatine summoning Force lightning storms that could destroy starships and teleport people through hyperspace, we had people pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky, we had people stopping lightsabers with their bare hands, we had people using the Force to eat planets and come back from the dead.

It was all over the goddamn place. Always has been. So why raise a big fat fuss over Rey doing one or two things that seem exceptional amidst a whole cast of characters doing exceptional things in a universe where the fate of galaxies is determined by a handful of exceptional characters?

Like, what does Rey do? She does a mind trick on her second try, she pilots the Millennium Falcon really well, and she beats a wounded Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel. After he'd been wounded just earlier in a lightsaber duel with a goddamn stormtrooper who can't use the Force at all. The guy was clearly not at the peak of his game.

I don't want to assume that people are picking on Rey specifically because of misogyny. I mean, I'm sure that a portion of the hate the character gets comes from alt-right red-pill incel douchenozzles who want to cast Protection from Vaginas on their beloved fandom, but I don't want to assume that everyone criticising her falls into that category. But the way people keep bringing it up, I honestly wonder if we're even watching the same films. She's not that bad.

So I saw the film, and while I enjoyed well enough while I was watching it, the more I thought about it afterwards, the more things about it bugged me. The Finn-Rose point was irrelevant, unnecessary, and hilariously transparent in its political grandstanding; they completely discarded the few vaguely interesting new mysteries set up in TFA; and they changed Star Wars lore however they saw fit, will seemingly zero regard for series continuity. It felt like a Star Wars film made by someone who neither cares about, nor likes the Star Wars setting, and just wanted to do their own thing. The end results was that I finished up coming to the conclusion that I don't like or care about any of the current characters, and no longer have any real interest in the franchise post this movie. I guess I'm done with Star Wars.

It's a great story with great themes and great characters aswell as great moments and great action held down by some really awkward writing. I think it's still a very good movie but it has significant problem, the thing is, all of those are superficial, not structural. Everything that's wrong with it a single person going over the screenplay with a red pen and crossing out, like ten lines could have easily fixed. But the way it's now you have some bad dialogue taking away from otherwise very good scenes.

Still, it has some of the best stuff in any Star Wars movie ever and as much as it stumbles, nothing can take that away from it.

bastardofmelbourne:

I don't want to assume that people are picking on Rey specifically because of misogyny. I mean, I'm sure that a portion of the hate the character gets comes from alt-right red-pill incel douchenozzles who want to cast Protection from Vaginas on their beloved fandom, but I don't want to assume that everyone criticising her falls into that category. But the way people keep bringing it up, I honestly wonder if we're even watching the same films. She's not that bad.

I don't really have a dog in this particular fight, not having even watched the films in question, but honestly, has anyone ever actually made that argument? Has anyone ever actually seen one of these hypothetical people?

Because even to a dyed-in-the-wool GooberGator like me, that sounds like the very definition of a strawman.

bastardofmelbourne:
But the way people keep bringing it up, I honestly wonder if we're even watching the same films. She's not that bad.

I gave you a detailed response looking at the other characters you used as a comparison and no one responded to it. So...

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