5 cops shot 1 killed, 2 civilians shot

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The Almighty Aardvark:

Captain Marvelous:
Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

I'm actually kind of curious about this. I'm quoting you, but I realize you might not know any better than I do. What kind of information would the police get out of tracing a spoofed call (As was probably done in this situation)? I know that the hollywood trope of tracing calls is inaccurate, it can be done instantaneously, but I don't know what sort of accuracy you get out of it. I also don't know what measures someone can take to hide their phone's location.

While I'm sure that you could hide it in such a way that you couldn't tell exactly where the real caller was coming from, but could you hide it in such a way that it appears to be coming where it plausibly should be? If not, that should be a bit of a red herring in a situation like this. Not enough that you don't take action, but enough that you don't go in guns blazing and try to assess whether there's real danger or not first.

I have no idea. There is an article on The Guardian detailing an investigation that took nearly a year to find a swatter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/15/swatting-law-teens-anonymous-prank-call-police

Saelune:

Captain Marvelous:

Saelune:
Then they suck at their jobs.

Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

For a house with closed windows and drawn shades. Yes. Especially since you don't want officers carelessly approaching a hostage situation.

Saelune:

Arnoxthe1:

Saelune:
Then they suck at their jobs.

OK. Now I think you're legit trollin'. I was doubtful at first, but this sentence plus your Mindflayer badge kind of confirms it.

I will not fall victim to your anger-speech, you fluffy menace!

Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

Except this was none of that.

Captain Marvelous:

The Almighty Aardvark:

Captain Marvelous:
Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

I'm actually kind of curious about this. I'm quoting you, but I realize you might not know any better than I do. What kind of information would the police get out of tracing a spoofed call (As was probably done in this situation)? I know that the hollywood trope of tracing calls is inaccurate, it can be done instantaneously, but I don't know what sort of accuracy you get out of it. I also don't know what measures someone can take to hide their phone's location.

While I'm sure that you could hide it in such a way that you couldn't tell exactly where the real caller was coming from, but could you hide it in such a way that it appears to be coming where it plausibly should be? If not, that should be a bit of a red herring in a situation like this. Not enough that you don't take action, but enough that you don't go in guns blazing and try to assess whether there's real danger or not first.

I have no idea. There is an article on The Guardian detailing an investigation that took nearly a year to find a swatter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/15/swatting-law-teens-anonymous-prank-call-police

Saelune:

Captain Marvelous:
Or tracing calls isn't as simple as you assume.

But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

For a house with closed windows and drawn shades. Yes. Especially since you don't want officers carelessly approaching a hostage situation.

Saelune:

Arnoxthe1:

OK. Now I think you're legit trollin'. I was doubtful at first, but this sentence plus your Mindflayer badge kind of confirms it.

I will not fall victim to your anger-speech, you fluffy menace!

Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

Except this was none of that.

Was the house so 'masterfully' protected against even basic assessment?

And yes, there was that. The SWAT team acted so poorly as to get a completely innocent man killed.

Saelune:
Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

I am not trolling. I am pissed that you find it more bothersome that I am mad that innocent people are suffering than the problems that caused it.

Well, one thing is certain. You're pretty unyielding in your beliefs here, so there isn't much else I can say. :\

Saelune:
Was the house so 'masterfully' protected against even basic assessment?

What to you is 'basic assessment'?

Saelune:

Captain Marvelous:

The Almighty Aardvark:

I'm actually kind of curious about this. I'm quoting you, but I realize you might not know any better than I do. What kind of information would the police get out of tracing a spoofed call (As was probably done in this situation)? I know that the hollywood trope of tracing calls is inaccurate, it can be done instantaneously, but I don't know what sort of accuracy you get out of it. I also don't know what measures someone can take to hide their phone's location.

While I'm sure that you could hide it in such a way that you couldn't tell exactly where the real caller was coming from, but could you hide it in such a way that it appears to be coming where it plausibly should be? If not, that should be a bit of a red herring in a situation like this. Not enough that you don't take action, but enough that you don't go in guns blazing and try to assess whether there's real danger or not first.

I have no idea. There is an article on The Guardian detailing an investigation that took nearly a year to find a swatter https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/15/swatting-law-teens-anonymous-prank-call-police

Saelune:
But is determining if a house is full of dangerous people versus just regular people doing nothing wrong so hard?

For a house with closed windows and drawn shades. Yes. Especially since you don't want officers carelessly approaching a hostage situation.

Saelune:
Thats one way to dismiss my genuine concern for the abuse of power and inability to successfully deal with dangerous situations by people with guns and power.

Except this was none of that.

Was the house so 'masterfully' protected against even basic assessment?

And yes, there was that. The SWAT team acted so poorly as to get a completely innocent man killed.

Basic assessment like..? Knocking on the door? Peaking through the windows? Getting the hostages killed? ...X-ray vision? I don't think you've managed to prove that anything they did leading up to the shooting was incompetent. We should probably just end this here. This is going no where fast and neither of us are going to budge. It isn't really worth it to continue this. I will say, though, that I do think that officers that abuse their power should be put on trial. That the blue wall of silence shouldn't be a thing. That officers who do try to diffuse a situation without lethal force shouldn't be fired for it. I just can't treat these like simple black and white situations.

Happy New Year. I'm off to bed.

Warhound:

Leg End:

Saelune:
Was the house so 'masterfully' protected against even basic assessment?

What to you is 'basic assessment'?

Honestly I wouldn't even try. That one argues in bad faith, (Willfully) doesn't understand meanings of words like 'murder' and has their own world view that intersects with reality only seldomly.

She/it/whatever wouldn't be happy unless we had Minority Report level police who could see into the future to know exactly what would happen and act accordingly.

Bit of advice. Next time you accuse someone of arguing in bad faith, try to refrain from saying something about a transgender person that could be seen as transphobic.

OT: Yes, cops can die in the line of duty. But considering how hard it seems to be to have police face accountability, I feel like there's some massive double standards going on in how we treat civilians vs how we treat police. IE, if a cop shoots an innocent it's theur fault. This feels like a deflection. Like it's saying that cops shooting the innocent is something we just need to accept.

erttheking:

Warhound:

Leg End:
What to you is 'basic assessment'?

Honestly I wouldn't even try. That one argues in bad faith, (Willfully) doesn't understand meanings of words like 'murder' and has their own world view that intersects with reality only seldomly.

She/it/whatever wouldn't be happy unless we had Minority Report level police who could see into the future to know exactly what would happen and act accordingly.

Bit of advice. Next time you accuse someone of arguing in bad faith, try to refrain from saying something about a transgender person that could be seen as transphobic.

I have no idea what Saelune identifies as, it wasn't an insult, though the people around here can take offence to whatever they want I suppose. I picked She/it because they have a female furry avatar.

I agree completely that police should be held accountable. I think they should be held to a higher standard. They made the choice to wear the badge, and they should accept the responsibility that comes with it. However, having said that, this case is a tragedy, but from the information I have found, the cops did their job. They received a call about a violent situation, with one victim already, and a potential arson attempt. Time was limited, and they chose to act. The cops arrived and set up a perimeter. Before they could establish contact, the suspect stepped out of his house. The man put his hands up, then brought them back down to his waist, and then back up.

Based on all the information the cops seemingly had at the time. That they were dealing with an armed and dangerous suspect, and that waistbands are a common place for a gun to be concealed, I can understand why this innocent man was shot. However, I do also understand it from the victim's perspective. This man saw police outside his house, went outside to see what was going on, likely was very confused, fight or flight almost certainly kicked in, and for reasons we will never know, he lowered his hands.

This shouldn't have happened. This is an awful situation that could have been avoided, but if I were in the cops shoes, working off of the information he had been given up to that point, I think many of us would have sadly made the same call.

Again, I think cops need to be punished for wrong doing. I think they should be held to a higher standard than civilians. But unless this cop was clairvoyant, I don't think there was any way he could have reasonably known that man didn't have a gun.

My hope is that we find ways to prevent tragedies like this from ever happening again.

Randomosity:
IThis shouldn't have happened. This is an awful situation that could have been avoided, but if I were in the cops shoes, working off of the information he had been given up to that point, I think many of us would have sadly made the same call.

Again, I think cops need to be punished for wrong doing. I think they should be held to a higher standard than civilians. But unless this cop was clairvoyant, I don't think there was any way he could have reasonably known that man didn't have a gun.

My hope is that we find ways to prevent tragedies like this from ever happening again.

Sure, it'd be a hell of a hard call, but it's exactly the sort of decision that police are supposed to be trained to make.

The US has much more of a problem with this that most western nations, it would seem that their training is inferior.

Having said that, even with the best training, every so often you are going to get things like this, but they should be much less often in the US.

Warhound:

erttheking:

Warhound:

Honestly I wouldn't even try. That one argues in bad faith, (Willfully) doesn't understand meanings of words like 'murder' and has their own world view that intersects with reality only seldomly.

She/it/whatever wouldn't be happy unless we had Minority Report level police who could see into the future to know exactly what would happen and act accordingly.

Bit of advice. Next time you accuse someone of arguing in bad faith, try to refrain from saying something about a transgender person that could be seen as transphobic.

I have no idea what Saelune identifies as, it wasn't an insult, though the people around here can take offence to whatever they want I suppose. I picked She/it because they have a female furry avatar.

It's she. I really struggle to think of a person that WANTS to be called "it" as it is highly dehumanizing. This isn't taking offense to anything, regardless of what you imply in your passive aggressive comments. This is basic shit. I...I can't believe I actually have to explain this.

erttheking:
It?s she. I really struggle to think of a person that WANTS to be called ?it? as it is highly dehumanizing. This isn?t taking offense to anything, regardless of what you imply in your passive aggressive comments. This is basic shit. I...I can?t believe I actually have to explain this.

It's 2018.

You really think "It" isn't a chosen pronoun by now?

On the topic in question.

It's pretty difficult to say this early in what exactly happened. I think painting police officers are some brutal killers and every "Victim" as completely innocent is a little daft. There's obviously more to it than that.

However, it is fair to say, this does appear to be a uniquely American issue. I don't know if the cause is culture, police, or whatever. But, chances are it's likely a combination.

The Lunatic:

erttheking:
It?s she. I really struggle to think of a person that WANTS to be called ?it? as it is highly dehumanizing. This isn?t taking offense to anything, regardless of what you imply in your passive aggressive comments. This is basic shit. I...I can?t believe I actually have to explain this.

It's 2018.

You really think "It" isn't a chosen pronoun by now?

On the topic in question.

It's pretty difficult to say this early in what exactly happened. I think painting police officers are some brutal killers and every "Victim" as completely innocent is a little daft. There's obviously more to it than that.

However, it is fair to say, this does appear to be a uniquely American issue. I don't know if the cause is culture, police, or whatever. But, chances are it's likely a combination.

Yeah I'm pretty sure most people don't want to be called it in [current year]

I mean I'm sure you can dig up some 5 follower Tumblr blog you found on reddit claiming that but you can find some 5 follower Tumblr blog on reddit saying anything

It's not that hard to see that warhound was calling her It as an insult. You don't need to defend him just because he dislikes the same people you dislike.

It's [current year] for God's sake

undeadsuitor:

Yeah I'm pretty sure most people don't want to be called it in [current year]

I mean I'm sure you can dig up some 5 follower Tumblr blog you found on reddit claiming that but you can find some 5 follower Tumblr blog on reddit saying anything

It's not that hard to see that warhound was calling her It as an insult. You don't need to defend him just because he dislikes the same people you dislike.

It's [current year] for God's sake

Actually, it's very common in the otherkin community, as these people believe ascribe themselves to genderless monsters and that sorta thing.

Which, I guess makes sense why Warhound would say it, given the furry avatar.

I wouldn't really expect you to be too familiar with that sorta thing though. I think you really shouldn't be so dismissive and quick to assume. It's just insulting.

The Lunatic:

undeadsuitor:

Yeah I'm pretty sure most people don't want to be called it in [current year]

I mean I'm sure you can dig up some 5 follower Tumblr blog you found on reddit claiming that but you can find some 5 follower Tumblr blog on reddit saying anything

It's not that hard to see that warhound was calling her It as an insult. You don't need to defend him just because he dislikes the same people you dislike.

It's [current year] for God's sake

Actually, it's very common in the otherkin community, as these people believe ascribe themselves to genderless monsters and that sorta thing.

Which, I guess makes sense why Warhound would say it, given the furry avatar.

I wouldn't really expect you to be too familiar with that sorta thing though. I think you really shouldn't be so dismissive and quick to assume. It's just insulting.

Why is it easier for you to believe that he was making a reference to an extremely obscure minority (with an even smaller minority of genderless kins) than a dude in a heated discussion with a trans person calling them it as an insult?

I mean I shouldn't blame you since you Kin as the abstract concept of desperately reaching.

undeadsuitor:

The Lunatic:

undeadsuitor:

Yeah I'm pretty sure most people don't want to be called it in [current year]

I mean I'm sure you can dig up some 5 follower Tumblr blog you found on reddit claiming that but you can find some 5 follower Tumblr blog on reddit saying anything

It's not that hard to see that warhound was calling her It as an insult. You don't need to defend him just because he dislikes the same people you dislike.

It's [current year] for God's sake

Actually, it's very common in the otherkin community, as these people believe ascribe themselves to genderless monsters and that sorta thing.

Which, I guess makes sense why Warhound would say it, given the furry avatar.

I wouldn't really expect you to be too familiar with that sorta thing though. I think you really shouldn't be so dismissive and quick to assume. It's just insulting.

Why is it easier for you to believe that he was making a reference to an extremely obscure minority (with an even smaller minority of genderless kins) than a dude in a heated discussion with a trans person calling them it as an insult?

I mean I shouldn't blame you since you Kin as the abstract concept of desperately reaching.

Well, I roleplay in several of the Kin communities so I am used to a lot of different pronouns, if I wanted to insult that person I would have been a lot more direct about it. Hell, I didn't even know they were Trans until Err said they were.

Alright people, this is literally just the gamer SWATTing thread with a little bit of "What is the correct pronoun?" off-topic talk for funsy so I'm putting a bullet in this thread.

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