Black Panther Movie Discussion (spoilers)

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Just came back from the cinema and felt like discussing the movie. Official disclaimer in advance, this is Off-topic. If you want to turn this into race war (you know who you are), make your own thread in Wild West

Overall it was a very enjoyable movie. When i first saw the trailers i thought it sounded like Thor with a different backdrop, a young man trying to live up to his title while dealing with the associated expectations and baggage related to his father, set in a fictionalized version of an ancient culture/mythology. It certainly is that, but i would say it evolves upon that particular setup quite well, and finally asked some important question often left out in similar fiction, namely if people this powerful have existed for this long, how can they justify not doing anything to try to change the world for the better at times when the world could really have needed it.

The action scenes are very well done even if some feel a little underwhelming compared to other marvel movies. The world they designed was pretty amazing, but nothing was ever quite as breathtaking as the visuals in Dr Strange, though in exchange it has a better, more complex story. In places you can see the CGI budget stretching a bit thin, but the overall aesthetic holds up well. Black Panther is great when fighting enemies with different skills as he did in Civil war, but it's not as unique or exciting when his opponent has the exact same powers

The characters are nicely rounded and provide a variety of viewpoints on the issues the film takes up. T'Challa had very clear and sympathetic motives and internal conflict, and the characters play off eachother well. As for the villains, Klaw is entertaining but i feel like they never really make full use of him, and his motives are rather weak and unclear, just coming off as a vague, superficial representation of imperialism. Killmonger on the other hand is easily one of the best Marvel Villains so far. Feels like they could have fleshed out his relationship with his girlfriend a bit more, actually given her death some impact on the viewer. And speaking of, the death scenes are kind of weak as a result of the PG-13 rating. This is why the marvel movies usually don't do things like headshots or throat slashes, because it's harder to give them any impact when you can barely tell they happened from the way they affect the target of such.

Overall a pretty good marvel movie that manages to make up for not being as impressive in terms of action as other marvel movies with a strong plot and a beautiful visual style

What did you guys think about it?

I'm seeing it tonight! Can't wait! I'll report back

CyanCat47:
If you want to turn this into race war (you know who you are),

Scuttlebutt is that you have to worry more about DC fanboys who want to review bomb its RT rating.

I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more racist tirades yet. After Last Jedi it seemed that everyone was on about how women/SJWs/diversity/Asians ruined Star Wars, but Black Panther seems to have dodged a bullet.

Hawki:

CyanCat47:
If you want to turn this into race war (you know who you are),

Scuttlebutt is that you have to worry more about DC fanboys who want to review bomb its RT rating.

I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more racist tirades yet. After Last Jedi it seemed that everyone was on about how women/SJWs/diversity/Asians ruined Star Wars, but Black Panther seems to have dodged a bullet.

Honestly I doubt any movie theater would risk a 'blacks only' screening to try to get extra publicity. I doubt the African-American community would respond well to that.

I just got back, I loved it!

Its very Star Warsy, if that makes sense, it feels like a very big world shoved into two hours.

Its good. Not great, not 100% on Rotten Tomatoes good and certainly not Moviebob "the world needs a second internet to contain the praise for this movie" good

It's the best of the marvel spinoff movies, certainly. Better than Antman and Dr. Strange. About Thor 1 good. Or Captain America 1 good.

Some pacing issues and plotholes that they dont really fill. The first half is basically black Skyfall, which was fun. Second half is closer to Battle of 5 armies, and not just because Bilbo Baggins is in the back being awkward.

The villain, Kill Monger, isn't great. Reviews portrayed him as some great Shakespearian villain who wants to help the world and yadda yadda, and hes not. He's one red lightsaber away from being a Sith. The strong shall rule the weak, world empires etc...the same stock world conquering villain we've seen a hundred times.

Overall solid 8/10. Worth seeing, hope they go more into detail about how Wakanda got so advanced in a later movie.

I haven't seen it yet; I'm reasonably optimistic. A movie like this, (coming out during Black History Month, no less) it's difficult not to wonder if reviews might be skewed in either direction- especially if that might result in "I'm obligated to say this is good because the superhero genre has long needed..." Mostly, for myself, I just need it to be a solid movie with characters I can care about and dialogue that doesn't lie as flat as the type on the page.

It sounds as though it's succeeded, and will be another winner in the Marvel roster. I'm glad to see it.

I thought the trailers were weak, but surprisingly I loved the film. Probably one of my favorite MCU films.

Silentpony:
Its good. Not great, not 100% on Rotten Tomatoes good and certainly not Moviebob "the world needs a second internet to contain the praise for this movie" good

It's the best of the marvel spinoff movies, certainly. Better than Antman and Dr. Strange. About Thor 1 good. Or Captain America 1 good.

Some pacing issues and plotholes that they dont really fill. The first half is basically black Skyfall, which was fun. Second half is closer to Battle of 5 armies, and not just because Bilbo Baggins is in the back being awkward.

The villain, War Monger, isn't great. Reviews portrayed him as some great Shakespearian villain who wants to help the world and yadda yadda, and hes not. He's one red lightsaber away from being a Sith. The strong shall rule the weak, world empires etc...the same stock world conquering villain we've seen a hundred times.

Overall solid 8/10. Worth seeing, hope they go more into detail about how Wakanda got so advanced in a later movie.

*Killmonger

Not being mean or anything. Just a correction.

Natemans:

Silentpony:
Its good. Not great, not 100% on Rotten Tomatoes good and certainly not Moviebob "the world needs a second internet to contain the praise for this movie" good

It's the best of the marvel spinoff movies, certainly. Better than Antman and Dr. Strange. About Thor 1 good. Or Captain America 1 good.

Some pacing issues and plotholes that they dont really fill. The first half is basically black Skyfall, which was fun. Second half is closer to Battle of 5 armies, and not just because Bilbo Baggins is in the back being awkward.

The villain, War Monger, isn't great. Reviews portrayed him as some great Shakespearian villain who wants to help the world and yadda yadda, and hes not. He's one red lightsaber away from being a Sith. The strong shall rule the weak, world empires etc...the same stock world conquering villain we've seen a hundred times.

Overall solid 8/10. Worth seeing, hope they go more into detail about how Wakanda got so advanced in a later movie.

*Killmonger

Not being mean or anything. Just a correction.

Oh you're right! My bad. Thanks!

Just saw it! Overall, I had a good time. I like the way Black Panther takes care to flesh out it's characters. Particularly my favorites Shuri, Ross, and Okoye. Killmonger, despite unfortunately ending up with the same powers and suit as T'challa, is one of my favorite villains. I probably like him as much as Homecoming's Vulture, maybe more.

Can't wait for the sequel!

loved the movie, although I wouldn't call it the best Marvel movie ever

I don't know why can't DC make movies like marvel, fun, lightheaded and pure action.

nerdyinvestor:

I don't know why can't DC make movies like marvel, fun, lightheaded and pure action.

Maybe because they don't want to?

What you described above is one of the problems I have with the MCU. They are often all those things - problem is, they're rarely more than that. The villains tend to be woefully underdeveloped, and there's rarely any actual 'meat' to the plots - rarely anything beyond "good guy must beat bad guy." There's a few exceptions (Iron Man 3, Civil War, Guardians 2, arguably Ragnarok), but they rarely go beyond surface level allusion. Not much thematic or narrative weight.

Not that the DCEU has really succeeded here either mind you (surface level allusions in MoS and WW, miserable failure in BvS).

It's definitely not my favourite Marvel movie but it was pretty good. Didn't feel very super heroish for me.

What I found pretty surprising is that the main antagonist is actually right. The ways he uses are wrong, but what motivates him is actually quite noble. Well, aside from the world domination thing.

I thought it was very good!

Gotta give kudo to Marvel for repersenting the African cultures well without a rasial outlash from it since that was what I fear of when they got round to making a Black Panther film!

Also I do agreed that Killmonger is one of the better Marvel villains out there.

The only nitpick I got was the where about of Steve Roger? Obviously I wasn't expecting him to appear in the film even as a cameo, more like an end credit thing but they did that with Bucky instead. I can guess he was not in Wakanda when this happened?

Since I haven't seen it, nor am I really planning to but the fuss is unavoidable, I'd like to ask: is it as formulaic as all other "first" MCU movies? Dr Strange was the last straw for me in terms of those. That film, despite the amazing visuals, was so devoid of tension and so predictable I kind of signed off MCU movies. Homecoming and Ragnarok I still enjoyed, because they were just straight up comedies I could enjoy while watching and immediately forget afterwards, and they weren't even pretending to have any gravitas to them. Does Black Panther bring anything new or different to the table?

And this film has only made Civil War retroactively worse in my mind, because I can't for the life of me remember what Black Panther was even doing in that movie. About all I remember is that he fought Bucky on a highway. The rest of the movie was all about Iron Man, Cap 'Murica, Zemo and Bucky.

Hawki:

CyanCat47:
If you want to turn this into race war (you know who you are),

Scuttlebutt is that you have to worry more about DC fanboys who want to review bomb its RT rating.

I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more racist tirades yet. After Last Jedi it seemed that everyone was on about how women/SJWs/diversity/Asians ruined Star Wars, but Black Panther seems to have dodged a bullet.

Nah, I just never liked Marvel heroes since I find thier heroes inferior to DC's regardless of their movies, comics, and animation's quality. And they don't have a Superman figure and Captain America is far from Superman to me.

And I am not the one review bombing Rotten Tomatoes for this.

Xerosch:
It's definitely not my favourite Marvel movie but it was pretty good. Didn't feel very super heroish for me.

What I found pretty surprising is that the main antagonist is actually right. The ways he uses are wrong, but what motivates him is actually quite noble. Well, aside from the world domination thing.

See I didn't get his great plan. I mean what, give space lasers to poor black people and they'll take over the world? That the only thing keeping Harlem in the United States is a lack of space weapons? That African American culture has been chomping at the bit to take on the Marines and Navy for 200+ years and simply didn't because they didn't have space spears?! That's it?! And those space weapons will be enough to take on every army in the entire world, at the same time? And no one would ever connect them to Wakanda, the Avengers won't get involved, and no nation won't just drop a Nuke or 5 on Wakanda and call it done?

It just seemed so poorly thought out, and not the action of a trained Ghost/SEAL. More like a kid who wants space lasers.

Hawki:

nerdyinvestor:

I don't know why can't DC make movies like marvel, fun, lightheaded and pure action.

Maybe because they don't want to?

What you described above is one of the problems I have with the MCU. They are often all those things - problem is, they're rarely more than that. The villains tend to be woefully underdeveloped, and there's rarely any actual 'meat' to the plots - rarely anything beyond "good guy must beat bad guy." There's a few exceptions (Iron Man 3, Civil War, Guardians 2, arguably Ragnarok), but they rarely go beyond surface level allusion. Not much thematic or narrative weight.

Not that the DCEU has really succeeded here either mind you (surface level allusions in MoS and WW, miserable failure in BvS).

I totally agree with you. WW just got a little fame due the feminism but honeslty I was bored in the movie. Marvel movies are like no-brainer movies, no drama nothing. I guess that's why they are interesting. Something like John Wick.

nerdyinvestor:
Marvel movies are like no-brainer movies, no drama nothing. I guess that's why they are interesting.

So they're interesting...by virtue of not being interesting?

Okay then. 0_0

The only review I've read had the writer being happy for the "brown kids" in the audience, so that's nice.

Johnny Novgorod:
The only review I've read had the writer being happy for the "brown kids" in the audience, so that's nice.

There's a scene where a bunch of burly black dudes, dressed up like Gorillas, start hooting and howling like monkeys for awhile and you could hear a pin drop in the theater.

There are a lot of...questionable racial tones in this movie that I don't think the writers thought through too well.

I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists

Spencer's a white nationalist.

I wasn't blown away but I also recognize that it is an important film for many people and can appreciate how unapologetically African it was (though I am really not an expert on any of that stuff so I dunno how accurate any of the traditional stuff was). I was also kind of tired when I saw it which I guess didn't help.

Still, it was a solid film. Highlights for me included the Busan Fish Market because I've actually been there, the Wakanda architecture, Andy Serkis as a demented South African arms dealer and Micheal B. Jordan as a badass antagonist who had both cool hair and a kind of a point with all his machinations.

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

Silentpony:

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

Well, I for one would think trying to find grand political messages or social relevance of any sort in a Disney blockbuster flick about a never-particularly-popular Marvel superhero would be the very definition of silliness, but clearly I'm simply behind the times.

Ogoid:

Silentpony:

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

Well, I for one would think trying to find grand political messages or social relevance of any sort in a Disney blockbuster flick about a never-particularly-popular Marvel superhero would be the very definition of silliness, but clearly I'm simply behind the times.

Again, I hate coming to that bastard's defense, but he's not the first person to find a political slant in a popular movie

Silentpony:

Xerosch:
It's definitely not my favourite Marvel movie but it was pretty good. Didn't feel very super heroish for me.

What I found pretty surprising is that the main antagonist is actually right. The ways he uses are wrong, but what motivates him is actually quite noble. Well, aside from the world domination thing.

See I didn't get his great plan. I mean what, give space lasers to poor black people and they'll take over the world? That the only thing keeping Harlem in the United States is a lack of space weapons? That African American culture has been chomping at the bit to take on the Marines and Navy for 200+ years and simply didn't because they didn't have space spears?! That's it?! And those space weapons will be enough to take on every army in the entire world, at the same time? And no one would ever connect them to Wakanda, the Avengers won't get involved, and no nation won't just drop a Nuke or 5 on Wakanda and call it done?

It just seemed so poorly thought out, and not the action of a trained Ghost/SEAL. More like a kid who wants space lasers.

I think the plan was to use the Wakandan spies to destabalize the country, and Wakanda would swoop in for the kill. The idea is that Wakanda would be able to defeat any country due to their advanced weaponry. Killmonger seems like one of those "They wont know they want it till they have it" types. He isn't really concerned about what they want, because he knows what's best.

The war Rhinos kinda make me wish Wonder Woman had War Kangaroos

Captain Marvelous:

Silentpony:

Xerosch:
It's definitely not my favourite Marvel movie but it was pretty good. Didn't feel very super heroish for me.

What I found pretty surprising is that the main antagonist is actually right. The ways he uses are wrong, but what motivates him is actually quite noble. Well, aside from the world domination thing.

See I didn't get his great plan. I mean what, give space lasers to poor black people and they'll take over the world? That the only thing keeping Harlem in the United States is a lack of space weapons? That African American culture has been chomping at the bit to take on the Marines and Navy for 200+ years and simply didn't because they didn't have space spears?! That's it?! And those space weapons will be enough to take on every army in the entire world, at the same time? And no one would ever connect them to Wakanda, the Avengers won't get involved, and no nation won't just drop a Nuke or 5 on Wakanda and call it done?

It just seemed so poorly thought out, and not the action of a trained Ghost/SEAL. More like a kid who wants space lasers.

I think the plan was to use the Wakandan spies to destabalize the country, and Wakanda would swoop in for the kill. The idea is that Wakanda would be able to defeat any country due to their advanced weaponry. Killmonger seems like one of those "They wont know they want it till they have it" types. He isn't really concerned about what they want, because he knows what's best.

The war Rhinos kinda make me wish Wonder Woman had War Kangaroos

I guess what I'm not getting is why Killmonger thinks the world would go along with him? I mean I'm not black so I'm guessing here, but I thought they didn't want to be owned anymore? So why would they rise up, conquer their own government, and then willingly submit to a King? A King who owns them, and can order them to do anything against their will, because King.

It just seems so weird to want to show the world how Wakanda can fix all the inequality in the world by...taking over the world and installing a global Monarchy, that Killmonger has no intention of ever passing on to an heir.

Ogoid:

Well, I for one would think trying to find grand political messages or social relevance of any sort in a Disney blockbuster flick about a never-particularly-popular Marvel superhero would be the very definition of silliness, but clearly I'm simply behind the times.

However miniscule, even in the MCU, there is some sub-text in Iron Man 3, Civil War, and Ragnarok (though that would be sub-sub text). Not particuarly deep or insightful sub-text, but it's there.

That said, I've noticed two lines of thought popping up with Black Panther on opposite ends. One is a claim that Wakanda is what Africa would be like if Europe never colonized the continent. The other is that Wakanda, as an ethnically hemogenous society, should be a basis for our own societies, and that it's through lack of immigration/multiculturalism that it's able to get where it is.

Far as I can tell these are both erroneous conclusions, because casting everything else aside, isn't Wakanda as advanced as it is purely because of vibranium? It's not the MCU's most powerful nation because of the above, it's the most advanced because the right material happened to land there in an asteroid.

Don't think Killmonger was quite the "newest greatest Marvel villain!" that the hype has him as, he's not particularly deep or complex, but I like that his motivations actually had a point. He didn't want to take over/destroy the world because evil, he wanted things to maybe not suck so much for people who's skin wasn't white. He sees injustice and wants to right it, he's just got a messed up methodology. And the final battle scene was just...eh. Two dudes with the same powerset/costume duking it out, so original Marvel...

That being said, I did like the characters. The royal family in particular actually felt like a family to me, not just a bunch of people the film insisted were related

Hawki:

Ogoid:

Well, I for one would think trying to find grand political messages or social relevance of any sort in a Disney blockbuster flick about a never-particularly-popular Marvel superhero would be the very definition of silliness, but clearly I'm simply behind the times.

However miniscule, even in the MCU, there is some sub-text in Iron Man 3, Civil War, and Ragnarok (though that would be sub-sub text). Not particuarly deep or insightful sub-text, but it's there.

That said, I've noticed two lines of thought popping up with Black Panther on opposite ends. One is a claim that Wakanda is what Africa would be like if Europe never colonized the continent. The other is that Wakanda, as an ethnically hemogenous society, should be a basis for our own societies, and that it's through lack of immigration/multiculturalism that it's able to get where it is.

Far as I can tell these are both erroneous conclusions, because casting everything else aside, isn't Wakanda as advanced as it is purely because of vibranium? It's not the MCU's most powerful nation because of the above, it's the most advanced because the right material happened to land there in an asteroid.

And the time frame doesn't really work out. Like Vibranium crashed into earth - calling it now there's an infinity stone there somewhere - millions of years ago. Ancient Wakandans found it and I guess became the Jetsons.
But European colonialism is only what, 600 years old? Maybe 700? Compared to the hundreds of thousands of years of African civilization before that. Are people implying that it was that 600 year window that was critical to African space ships? That up until then, nothing much was happening technologically, and damn it Europeans showed up the day before African NASA was about to start?

and likewise with the ethnostate. They're still only prosperous because of magic space rocks, not because of ethnocentrism. Like...North Korea isn't a secret Jetsons utopia. Its just an isolated dirt poor country.

People need to remember the magic space rocks. That's what makes Wakanda work, not analogies to modern politics.

Silentpony:

Johnny Novgorod:
The only review I've read had the writer being happy for the "brown kids" in the audience, so that's nice.

There's a scene where a bunch of burly black dudes, dressed up like Gorillas, start hooting and howling like monkeys for awhile and you could hear a pin drop in the theater.

Yikes...

Silentpony:

Captain Marvelous:

Silentpony:

See I didn't get his great plan. I mean what, give space lasers to poor black people and they'll take over the world? That the only thing keeping Harlem in the United States is a lack of space weapons? That African American culture has been chomping at the bit to take on the Marines and Navy for 200+ years and simply didn't because they didn't have space spears?! That's it?! And those space weapons will be enough to take on every army in the entire world, at the same time? And no one would ever connect them to Wakanda, the Avengers won't get involved, and no nation won't just drop a Nuke or 5 on Wakanda and call it done?

It just seemed so poorly thought out, and not the action of a trained Ghost/SEAL. More like a kid who wants space lasers.

I think the plan was to use the Wakandan spies to destabalize the country, and Wakanda would swoop in for the kill. The idea is that Wakanda would be able to defeat any country due to their advanced weaponry. Killmonger seems like one of those "They wont know they want it till they have it" types. He isn't really concerned about what they want, because he knows what's best.

The war Rhinos kinda make me wish Wonder Woman had War Kangaroos

I guess what I'm not getting is why Killmonger thinks the world would go along with him? I mean I'm not black so I'm guessing here, but I thought they didn't want to be owned anymore? So why would they rise up, conquer their own government, and then willingly submit to a King? A King who owns them, and can order them to do anything against their will, because King.

It just seems so weird to want to show the world how Wakanda can fix all the inequality in the world by...taking over the world and installing a global Monarchy, that Killmonger has no intention of ever passing on to an heir.

Probably because he's offering a world where the once oppressed are on top and in control. He believes people will agree with and side with him because he's got the biggest guns and years of racial oppression fueling him. He's probably planning on that same oppression to convince others to follow him. And they don't have to willingly submit, they just have to submit. He intends to be king, but that's really just another form of government. I don't think the Wakandans consider T'challa their owner. It'd just be that, but on a global scale. Technically he's also offering a world with better technology, cures for diseases, probably an end to world hunger. All things that would be worth considering if it didn't come with conquering the world and the systematic oppression of white people.

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