Black Panther Movie Discussion (spoilers)

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT
 

maninahat:

You have hit on a major problem I had with the movie though, in that its never really clear how much of a threat an imperialist Wakanda is.

That was what I was thinking, for all the smugness over the technological difference there wasn't a hell of a lot of difference between their tech level and, say, the cutting edge of Stark industries. Hell aside from the cloaking technology nothing they have is that much better than what other people have in the MCU. Now sure the Wakandans have vibranium which renders their vehicles and armour very hard to destroy but if the armour can flex at all then there are weapons that can kill the occupants, alternatively EMP and sonic disruption seems to work just fine and I have no doubt Stark can weaponise those. Vibranium isn't indestructible either, they have mining tools and process it so it's obviously possible to liquefy and break it plus you see several presumably Vibranium vehicles downed by directed energy weapons.

Hell, eventually this war over Earth, also known as one of the Nine Realms, would probably trigger Asgardian intervention since Thor is all about peace in the Nine Realms. Plus eventually they're going to swat down one of those typically ungainly and slow dragonfly vehicles (almost all sci-fi vehicles in films are significantly less nimble than actual fighter jets) and Iron Man gets upgraded to Vibranium Man. Or they just boot Banner in the dick and drop him on the city.

Among my other problems with this film it also seems to be a film set in the Avengers cinematic universe where everyone somehow forgot the Avengers exist.

Saelune:
When the law is counter-intuitive, oppressive, and bad, obeying it is stupid.

I'm not even going at it from that angle, I'm surprised there wasn't a law there already which'd let the Wakandan tribal council depose a Black Panther that had straight up gone insane. I'm surprised Killmonger didn't tell everyone to get out and the four tribal chiefs didn't meet somewhere, have a vote and then basically kick him out, as I say in a nation millennia old there is nearly always a precedent for deposing a ruler who's gone nuts.

To be honest I also have no idea why T'challa didn't just point at him when he wandered in and go 'hey, you're that guy who broke Klauw out of prison! Why'dcha do that Killmonger my matey?' and immediately watch whatever his name was be like 'you're the guy that made my best friend break his promise to avenge my parents? I'll kill you!' Well, other than that the plot couldn't have it.

Silentpony:

bastardofmelbourne:
SNIP

Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

To be fair, you do have to realize the level of tech they were going to unleash.

Like those sashes that deploy electric shields that even those "spears that can demolish a tank" couldn't get through. If you combine the tech, you might not get Iron man, you might get one tenth of an Iron Man.

But then multiply that by a few hundred, as to your estimates. What government in the world that still relies on regular projectile weapons can respond to multiple Iron Men popping out of the wood work with knowledge on where to strike to sever the head off the snake, as it were?

And let's not forget, this was supposed to be the first shipment. Take those Spear wielding, vibranium suited, Energy Shield Sash wearing, Energy Ring Blade having, Kimoyo Beads (which has been used for communication, operating the Wakandan technology, and freaking Triage) donned warriors... and give them cloaked Wakandan jet fighters that laughably dwarf any modern military capabilities. How well will all the countries be able to weather the hit?

And remember, ALL the countries. Killmonger's plans will suffer in America, which in the MCU is where most of the Superbeings live. If Killmonger's telling the truth on how many operatives they have across the world, All they would need is to strike at a time where their operatives knows where 50% of their targets are at one given time to disrupt the world, provided they are correct on the value of their targets at that time.

There will be a rally, but we're talking about people wielding materials that no modern government has any defense over. The Avengers can't be everywhere at once. Spiderman and the Defenders are in New York. Major destabilization will occur because of the tactics a well trained operation like that can bait out the Avengers if they take it upon themselves to mobilize. Show a big force in China and make the Avengers go there. But oops, they disappeared and London fell due to the Avengers falling for the feint.

Silentpony:

maninahat:

That's wrong though. The gorilla tribe for instance, is totally at odds and lives in isolation from the other four. Nothing is said about their nation's religions, the cultures are visibly distinct, and the only thing unifying the tribes is that they generally accept the autocratic authority of Black Panther and live within Wakanda's borders... which is what multicultural ethnic groups do in every other country with their respective governments.

How were the cultures distinct at all? Yeah they wore different costumes, but they spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies and bowed to the same ruler.
Those are pretty huge similarities to be claiming don't constitute the same culture, when green dress vs blue dress obviously means different cultures.

Also even the Gorilla people spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies, and if the fact they wanted the thrown for themselves is anything to go by, we're still indirectly ruled by the King. Yeah Black Panther was the first king to be in the Gorilla land in a few hundred years, but if the gorilla people never cared about the king, Wakanda or the throne in the first place, why try to take it all over?
And if they didn't respect the traditions of the other tribes, why use traditional trial-by-combat? Why be okay with Killmonger being king because he won fair and square if they don't care about traditions?

Also they're all African and all Wakandan. So they all have the same traditions, language, culture, Government, are all from the same Continent and nation, and allow no one from other nations or continents inside their borders.

How is it NOT an ethno-state?!

You're really stretching the idea of an ethnicity there. I mean, yeah, using Spencer's idea of ethnicity, aka only melanin count matters (except when it doesn't), then yeah, Wakanda is an ethno-state.

In much the same way that Belgium would be an ethno-state is it closed its borders now. You just have to ignore those pesky minority tribes, religions, and customs. Conceding to the same central government doesn't make your culture homogeneous. Just look at the differences between Texas, Hawaii, and New York.

(Or to put it another way, wander into most Asian countries and try telling people that they all have the same ethnicity.)

Hell, "they're all African": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_of_Africa
Ethnicity is more than race, and race is pretty bullshit, especially the malleable way pukes like Spencer try to use it. Hell, "white" is especially bullshit considering the times in history it has and/or hasn't counted, among others, Spaniards, Irish, Germans, Italians, and most Eastern Europeans.

altnameJag:

Silentpony:

maninahat:

That's wrong though. The gorilla tribe for instance, is totally at odds and lives in isolation from the other four. Nothing is said about their nation's religions, the cultures are visibly distinct, and the only thing unifying the tribes is that they generally accept the autocratic authority of Black Panther and live within Wakanda's borders... which is what multicultural ethnic groups do in every other country with their respective governments.

How were the cultures distinct at all? Yeah they wore different costumes, but they spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies and bowed to the same ruler.
Those are pretty huge similarities to be claiming don't constitute the same culture, when green dress vs blue dress obviously means different cultures.

Also even the Gorilla people spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies, and if the fact they wanted the thrown for themselves is anything to go by, we're still indirectly ruled by the King. Yeah Black Panther was the first king to be in the Gorilla land in a few hundred years, but if the gorilla people never cared about the king, Wakanda or the throne in the first place, why try to take it all over?
And if they didn't respect the traditions of the other tribes, why use traditional trial-by-combat? Why be okay with Killmonger being king because he won fair and square if they don't care about traditions?

Also they're all African and all Wakandan. So they all have the same traditions, language, culture, Government, are all from the same Continent and nation, and allow no one from other nations or continents inside their borders.

How is it NOT an ethno-state?!

You're really stretching the idea of an ethnicity there. I mean, yeah, using Spencer's idea of ethnicity, aka only melanin count matters (except when it doesn't), then yeah, Wakanda is an ethno-state.

In much the same way that Belgium would be an ethno-state is it closed its borders now. You just have to ignore those pesky minority tribes, religions, and customs. Conceding to the same central government doesn't make your culture homogeneous. Just look at the differences between Texas, Hawaii, and New York.

after 500 years or so, wouldnt belgium be a mono-ethno state in your example? Everyone would interbreed until the entire population is a mutt of some blend of different races. Yea, Texas/Hawaii/New York are quite diverse, but we also import millions of immigrants a year, a good number of which go to those places (and california)

altnameJag:

Silentpony:

maninahat:

That's wrong though. The gorilla tribe for instance, is totally at odds and lives in isolation from the other four. Nothing is said about their nation's religions, the cultures are visibly distinct, and the only thing unifying the tribes is that they generally accept the autocratic authority of Black Panther and live within Wakanda's borders... which is what multicultural ethnic groups do in every other country with their respective governments.

How were the cultures distinct at all? Yeah they wore different costumes, but they spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies and bowed to the same ruler.
Those are pretty huge similarities to be claiming don't constitute the same culture, when green dress vs blue dress obviously means different cultures.

Also even the Gorilla people spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies, and if the fact they wanted the thrown for themselves is anything to go by, we're still indirectly ruled by the King. Yeah Black Panther was the first king to be in the Gorilla land in a few hundred years, but if the gorilla people never cared about the king, Wakanda or the throne in the first place, why try to take it all over?
And if they didn't respect the traditions of the other tribes, why use traditional trial-by-combat? Why be okay with Killmonger being king because he won fair and square if they don't care about traditions?

Also they're all African and all Wakandan. So they all have the same traditions, language, culture, Government, are all from the same Continent and nation, and allow no one from other nations or continents inside their borders.

How is it NOT an ethno-state?!

You're really stretching the idea of an ethnicity there. I mean, yeah, using Spencer's idea of ethnicity, aka only melanin count matters (except when it doesn't), then yeah, Wakanda is an ethno-state.

In much the same way that Belgium would be an ethno-state is it closed its borders now. You just have to ignore those pesky minority tribes, religions, and customs. Conceding to the same central government doesn't make your culture homogeneous. Just look at the differences between Texas, Hawaii, and New York.

(Or to put it another way, wander into most Asian countries and try telling people that they all have the same ethnicity.)

Hell, "they're all African": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_of_Africa
Ethnicity is more than race, and race is pretty bullshit, especially the malleable way pukes like Spencer try to use it. Hell, "white" is especially bullshit considering the times in history it has and/or hasn't counted, among others, Spaniards, Irish, Germans, Italians, and most Eastern Europeans.

The hell you on about?! They have the same culture! And language. And race, which is actually an important part of a ethnic group dynamic. And religion. And government. The only thing that's difference is what color they wear.

By that logic Susan, the Irish Catholic woman from Hamlet on the Hill wearing a blue dress is a different ethnic group than her sister, Sussie, the Irish Catholic woman from Hamlet on the Hill wearing a green dress.

Wakanda is a singular culture, singular ethnic group monarchy.

To use your Asian country analogy, it's like going to Tokyo and asking the Japanese locals if they're the same ethnicity as the same Japanese locals from the building next door. Provided they share the same relgion, culture, language and government system, as is shared in Wakanda, these Japanese people will say yes.
Wakanda is not the size of all Asia. We're not talking about thousands of square miles difference.

Silentpony:

maninahat:

That's wrong though. The gorilla tribe for instance, is totally at odds and lives in isolation from the other four. Nothing is said about their nation's religions, the cultures are visibly distinct, and the only thing unifying the tribes is that they generally accept the autocratic authority of Black Panther and live within Wakanda's borders... which is what multicultural ethnic groups do in every other country with their respective governments.

How were the cultures distinct at all? Yeah they wore different costumes, but they spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies and bowed to the same ruler.
Those are pretty huge similarities to be claiming don't constitute the same culture, when green dress vs blue dress obviously means different cultures.

It isn't just a green dress vs a blue dress though is it? In the council there is a guy with a huge lip plate, next to a guy dressed like a Maasai, next to a woman with clayed dreadlocks. These speak of traditions from totally different cultures, from totally different parts of Africa. Africa is the most ethnically diverse continent in the World and has thousands of ethnic groups. Also, whilst they speak a common language, which appears to be English, they also speak Xhosa too. Granted, it's not clear whether people in Black Panther are speaking Xhosa all the time within Wakanda.

Yeah Black Panther was the first king to be in the Gorilla land in a few hundred years, but if the gorilla people never cared about the king, Wakanda or the throne in the first place, why try to take it all over?
And if they didn't respect the traditions of the other tribes, why use traditional trial-by-combat? Why be okay with Killmonger being king because he won fair and square if they don't care about traditions?

It's clear that the Gorilla tribe don't normally show up to the king making thing, and its a big surprise to everyone when they do. And even then, they only really turn up to slag off the other tribes and try and take the king down - they clearly do not see themselves as one and the same culture, even if they grudgingly accept the rule of law.

Ryotknife:

altnameJag:
You're really stretching the idea of an ethnicity there. I mean, yeah, using Spencer's idea of ethnicity, aka only melanin count matters (except when it doesn't), then yeah, Wakanda is an ethno-state.

In much the same way that Belgium would be an ethno-state is it closed its borders now. You just have to ignore those pesky minority tribes, religions, and customs. Conceding to the same central government doesn't make your culture homogeneous. Just look at the differences between Texas, Hawaii, and New York.

after 500 years or so, wouldnt belgium be a mono-ethno state in your example? Everyone would interbreed until the entire population is a mutt of some blend of different races. Yea, Texas/Hawaii/New York are quite diverse, but we also import millions of immigrants a year, a good number of which go to those places (and california)

Only if the Catholics stopped being catholic, and the Protestants stopped being Protestant, and the Jews stopped being Jewish, etc, etc, etc.

That's what people like Spencer don't get about ethno-states: there's much more to it than your melanin count.

Good film. Just saw it last night.
Could always use more Andy Serkis, he was just a riot.

The Forest Whitaker death gut-punch, however, just fell flat because "well yeah T'Challa, he's Forest Whitaker. What did you think he was gonna not die?"

bastardofmelbourne:
When I saw Killmonger burn the flower garden, I was just like "...what?"

I mean, they try to explain it later as Killmonger subconsciously or consciously following CIA regime destabilisation tactics, but it makes no sense given Killmonger's stated goals. He wants to go to war with the world; I was expecting him to order the heart-shaped herb to be administered to a bunch of bodyguards, so that he could have a whole squad of super-soldiers. But no, he just decides to burn it all - which is made double extra dumb because the film has also shown that there's a chemical concoction that can depower a Black Panther, meaning that it would be super handy to have more of the herb on hand in case any of his enemies decides to just shoot him with a dart full of that shit and render him a normal human.

Honestly, I don't think Wakanda could have taken over the world. They could certainly do a ton of damage, what with the bulletproof catsuits and space guns that they're oddly averse to using, but I really just think they don't have enough people to conquer the world.

Plus, the existence of sonic stabilisers that can negate vibranium's indestructibility kind of opens up a huge hole in their military technology. It would be like there was a device that could make nuclear plutonium into non-radioactive lumps of metal, or a device that turned gunpowder into inert sand. I'm surprised that Shuri didn't just go "let me grab on of those and rig it into a gun, then I'll just shoot Bitchmonger with it and you can drop-kick his head off."

First off, to the Killmonger burning thing? To the Wakandans, it's a sacred herb that was blessed to them by their Goddess that will imbue the true successor with the ability to rule Wakanda justly.

To an outsider? It's the Super Soldier Serum. It can be taken at any time by anyone to rival his power. And in fact, Nakia proves him correct because she snuck in and stole one herb to try to get the Gorilla tribe's leader to fight Killmonger. He's a Villain, so he's never right to be. But his Strategy was proven correct.

But Beyond that, he was probably trying to stop what he considered the same bullshit that sent his father out to die in a foreign place that needed their help so desperately. What was Killmonger's goals after his revolution worked? Was he going to disband the monarchy of Wakanda and instill a democracy? Seems far fetched, but he literally did the first step by removing by... you guessed it: "subconsciously or consciously following CIA regime destabilization tactics". No Black Panther super herbs might mean a whole new way of doing things. The Wakandans in the cave certainly thought so.

Wakanda was never met to take over the world. Nor was it Killmonger's goals. His Goal was to destabilize once again. To give those who were under the boot of the governments that he considered to be oppressing the common folks equal ground. It's like what's being talked about in R&P. What good is an AR 15 against an Abrams Tank, rendering the idea of having one folly if you're going to try to go against the US army if some type of civil war broke out.

Well, you now have a spear that can blow a hole into a tank with barely any effort. That creates equal ground.

Also, it wasn't Wakanda who was going to fight the entire war. It was the rogue operatives that Killmonger was already in league with. What could they do? Well...

People keep talking about the Sonic weakness. How many people in the world know about it? How many people even consider that? The idea is that vibranium's so rare that even if anyone knew of the weakness, who would put the millions of dollars to the R&D to create a counter for a material that America's grand total supply is supposedly latched onto one Man?

Then, the reality of the actual Research and Development to make the Sonic weapon comes into play. Realistically, say Tony realizes without fail "My God, they are using Vibranium! All of them! I need to start on work in making a Sonic Device right away"... it would be too late if it goes to Killmonger's plans.

Coordinated strikes, around the world at the same time. With armies that still use conventional weapons, Not Stark's repulsor beams or Armor. They might have Stark Missiles, but we're talking about Guerrilla soldiers who are simultaneously striking at heads of governments. What, are all these nations going to launch their Stark missiles and Bombs on their own various Governmental Buildings?

Would the nations of the world have any chance against a Vibranium clad army? In a straight up fight, I have to say I don't think so. It would be like 300 British Longbowmen versus 50 guys with Tommy Guns. The Longbowmen have the capability of doing damage, but the tech of Spray and Pray cancels out the long years of training and even the numbers. I mean, it's literally why Iron Man is even a thing. Superior tech makes you untouchable.

Saw it last night. Definitely got a Lion King sort of vibe which I rather liked. I'm going to miss Klaw, he was definitely bringing across a character escalation to the point where a big part of the reasoning for what he does is just to fuck with the Wakandan monarchy, and the rest is because it's fun.

This probably would have made it too dialogue heavy, but I wanted to see a more in-depth examination of the argument between traditionalists and others about the pros and cons of Wakanda revealing itself to the world (and to put the decision entirely on T'challa's shoulders, I fully believed Ross would die in the final battle, excellent fake-out if that was intentional). Here, he faced the dilemma common to nearly all governments, the need to change ancient laws and rulings to better fit their people without seeming capricious or disrespectful to those who came before, but it seemed kind of one-sided. Perhaps Infinity War will include some of the negative fallout from this change.

I see people are discussing the most likely result of Killmonger's plans reaching fruition, but I got the feeling from him that he doesn't actually care all that much. Win or lose, it's the war he's always wanted to fight, and he probably considers victory likely even taking the Avengers into account. I don't exactly consider him a legend, but a marked improvement over previous Marvel villains, given equal development time to T'challa.

Silentpony:

altnameJag:

Silentpony:

How were the cultures distinct at all? Yeah they wore different costumes, but they spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies and bowed to the same ruler.
Those are pretty huge similarities to be claiming don't constitute the same culture, when green dress vs blue dress obviously means different cultures.

Also even the Gorilla people spoke the same language, participated in the same ceremonies, and if the fact they wanted the thrown for themselves is anything to go by, we're still indirectly ruled by the King. Yeah Black Panther was the first king to be in the Gorilla land in a few hundred years, but if the gorilla people never cared about the king, Wakanda or the throne in the first place, why try to take it all over?
And if they didn't respect the traditions of the other tribes, why use traditional trial-by-combat? Why be okay with Killmonger being king because he won fair and square if they don't care about traditions?

Also they're all African and all Wakandan. So they all have the same traditions, language, culture, Government, are all from the same Continent and nation, and allow no one from other nations or continents inside their borders.

How is it NOT an ethno-state?!

You're really stretching the idea of an ethnicity there. I mean, yeah, using Spencer's idea of ethnicity, aka only melanin count matters (except when it doesn't), then yeah, Wakanda is an ethno-state.

In much the same way that Belgium would be an ethno-state is it closed its borders now. You just have to ignore those pesky minority tribes, religions, and customs. Conceding to the same central government doesn't make your culture homogeneous. Just look at the differences between Texas, Hawaii, and New York.

(Or to put it another way, wander into most Asian countries and try telling people that they all have the same ethnicity.)

Hell, "they're all African": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_of_Africa
Ethnicity is more than race, and race is pretty bullshit, especially the malleable way pukes like Spencer try to use it. Hell, "white" is especially bullshit considering the times in history it has and/or hasn't counted, among others, Spaniards, Irish, Germans, Italians, and most Eastern Europeans.

The hell you on about?! They have the same culture! And language. And race, which is actually an important part of a ethnic group dynamic. And religion. And government. The only thing that's difference is what color they wear.

By that logic Susan, the Irish Catholic woman from Hamlet on the Hill wearing a blue dress is a different ethnic group than her sister, Sussie, the Irish Catholic woman from Hamlet on the Hill wearing a green dress.

Wakanda is a singular culture, singular ethnic group monarchy.

To use your Asian country analogy, it's like going to Tokyo and asking the Japanese locals if they're the same ethnicity as the same Japanese locals from the building next door. Provided they share the same relgion, culture, language and government system, as is shared in Wakanda, these Japanese people will say yes.
Wakanda is not the size of all Asia. We're not talking about thousands of square miles difference.

I did get the impression that there was a religious divide between the jabari and the other tribes. Bast is mentioned as the patron diety for Wakanda but the Jabari leader said praise to a different got and if i recall correctly asked T'challa 'where is your god now', but this is never expanded upon and aisde from that they are pretty much uniform

CyanCat47:

Silentpony:

The hell you on about?! They have the same culture! And language. And race, which is actually an important part of a ethnic group dynamic. And religion. And government. The only thing that's difference is what color they wear.

By that logic Susan, the Irish Catholic woman from Hamlet on the Hill wearing a blue dress is a different ethnic group than her sister, Sussie, the Irish Catholic woman from Hamlet on the Hill wearing a green dress.

Wakanda is a singular culture, singular ethnic group monarchy.

To use your Asian country analogy, it's like going to Tokyo and asking the Japanese locals if they're the same ethnicity as the same Japanese locals from the building next door. Provided they share the same relgion, culture, language and government system, as is shared in Wakanda, these Japanese people will say yes.
Wakanda is not the size of all Asia. We're not talking about thousands of square miles difference.

I did get the impression that there was a religious divide between the jabari and the other tribes. Bast is mentioned as the patron diety for Wakanda but the Jabari leader said praise to a different got and if i recall correctly asked T'challa 'where is your god now', but this is never expanded upon and aisde from that they are pretty much uniform

Yeah, the idea of Wakanda as an ethno-state kinda falls flat when you realize tha Jabari are a basically "violent Amish". They are definitely not the in the same ethnic group as the other 4 tribes. Who I'd argue ar also not part of the same ethnic group, but since Black Panther is a superhero movie and not a political drama, the clues are much more subtle. Might even be only the level of Catholics vs Lutherans, but that's still not homogeneous.

WhiteFangofWhoa:

This probably would have made it too dialogue heavy, but I wanted to see a more in-depth examination of the argument between traditionalists and others about the pros and cons of Wakanda revealing itself to the world (and to put the decision entirely on T'challa's shoulders, I fully believed Ross would die in the final battle, excellent fake-out if that was intentional). Here, he faced the dilemma common to nearly all governments, the need to change ancient laws and rulings to better fit their people without seeming capricious or disrespectful to those who came before, but it seemed kind of one-sided. Perhaps Infinity War will include some of the negative fallout from this change.

One thing I definitely liked about the movie is that the Big Bad and his father both had a point, a good point, about how Wakanda's isolation is foolish and leaves other black people around the world to rot. Like usual when the villain has a point with Killmonger the only problem was how he intended to go about it, then at the end T'challa took that point to heart, looked for another way, and went to work executing it. The vast majority of the time when the bad guy has a point the good guys at most admit that they do have a point but how they choose to go about fixing the problem is wrong, then after stopping the villain just go back to doing things the way things have always been done without so much as a token effort to address the villain's point. With Black Panther it was refreshing to see a hero that actually takes steps to solve the issues that created the villain to begin with.

immortalfrieza:

One thing I definitely liked about the movie is that the Big Bad and his father both had a point, a good point, about how Wakanda's isolation is foolish and leaves other black people around the world to rot. Like usual when the villain has a point with Killmonger the only problem was how he intended to go about it, then at the end T'challa took that point to heart, looked for another way, and went to work executing it. The vast majority of the time when the bad guy has a point the good guys at most admit that they do have a point but how they choose to go about fixing the problem is wrong, then after stopping the villain just go back to doing things the way things have always been done without so much as a token effort to address the villain's point. With Black Panther it was refreshing to see a hero that actually takes steps to solve the issues that created the villain to begin with.

While they had a point and I'm glad T'Challa saw it, his actions are unwise.

Klaw caused so much damage with a mining tool. Not something used for unyielding war dreamt up by the most cunning of Wakandan warriors. Just something to get a mineral out.

Sharing Vibranium and the ability to manipulate it will start off with benefits and end up with more weapon designers, and dare I say with the recent insurgence of superpowered beings with bullet proof skin... the demand of true Vibranium weapons.

People were witness to Manhattan during 'The Event' and saw police helpless. A Raging Green Monster that can shatter cities if he's ticked off enough is known to the public. And hell, it just takes one leaked video to show that the Heroes that once prevented all those events once out right FOUGHT each other. Hell, the Sokovia Accords are a direct response to the fear that everyone has to Superpowered Beings.

I don't understand why most people don't get that with the prevalence of Vibranium and the ability to harness it will not start an arms race that would make Tony Stark pale in fear.

What T'Challa should do is what he did with the building his Uncle Died in and where Killmonger was born in. Buy them secretly. Build up School Secretly. Provide options and abilities for people around the world. They have the resources to do that. But to outright share Vibranium and technologies... well, the MCU has shown that people with advanced tech are either SHIELD or Tony, or Hydra, AIM, or anything else that just uses their brilliance to Police or Harm the populous.

T'Challa's intentions are good. That doesn't mean everyone will be good with them.

ObsidianJones:

immortalfrieza:

One thing I definitely liked about the movie is that the Big Bad and his father both had a point, a good point, about how Wakanda's isolation is foolish and leaves other black people around the world to rot. Like usual when the villain has a point with Killmonger the only problem was how he intended to go about it, then at the end T'challa took that point to heart, looked for another way, and went to work executing it. The vast majority of the time when the bad guy has a point the good guys at most admit that they do have a point but how they choose to go about fixing the problem is wrong, then after stopping the villain just go back to doing things the way things have always been done without so much as a token effort to address the villain's point. With Black Panther it was refreshing to see a hero that actually takes steps to solve the issues that created the villain to begin with.

While they had a point and I'm glad T'Challa saw it, his actions are unwise.

Klaw caused so much damage with a mining tool. Not something used for unyielding war dreamt up by the most cunning of Wakandan warriors. Just something to get a mineral out.

Sharing Vibranium and the ability to manipulate it will start off with benefits and end up with more weapon designers, and dare I say with the recent insurgence of superpowered beings with bullet proof skin... the demand of true Vibranium weapons.

People were witness to Manhattan during 'The Event' and saw police helpless. A Raging Green Monster that can shatter cities if he's ticked off enough is known to the public. And hell, it just takes one leaked video to show that the Heroes that once prevented all those events once out right FOUGHT each other. Hell, the Sokovia Accords are a direct response to the fear that everyone has to Superpowered Beings.

I don't understand why most people don't get that with the prevalence of Vibranium and the ability to harness it will not start an arms race that would make Tony Stark pale in fear.

What T'Challa should do is what he did with the building his Uncle Died in and where Killmonger was born in. Buy them secretly. Build up School Secretly. Provide options and abilities for people around the world. They have the resources to do that. But to outright share Vibranium and technologies... well, the MCU has shown that people with advanced tech are either SHIELD or Tony, or Hydra, AIM, or anything else that just uses their brilliance to Police or Harm the populous.

T'Challa's intentions are good. That doesn't mean everyone will be good with them.

Heres the thing, technology will keep advancing, and people will keep on finding ways to make it do bad things. We shouldnt just not advance though to stop it. And yeah, if Wakanda shares its advancements and resources, people will try to abuse it...but I mean, even if he doesnt, who is to say some future Wakanda ruler wont just abuse it themselves? That none have until Killmonger is well, unrealistic, but I think people have pointed that out already.

Better atleast that someone as good as T'Challa be the one to share it, and hopefully do so wisely.

The best thing, really, that anyone can do is prepare for the worst...which is something I dont understand why it doesnt happen already.

Like, nukes are scary. But I dont understand why the powers that be ever think that the answer to nukes is 'more nukes'? I mean, Im not some secret government super scientist, but uh, wouldnt the best thing to have in a nuclear war be something that makes you immune to nukes?

And in a fantastical setting that Superheroes live in, well, anyone who is afraid of the damage vibranium will do, should look for ways to disable it...which in the movie already exists.

Saelune:
Heres the thing, technology will keep advancing, and people will keep on finding ways to make it do bad things. We shouldnt just not advance though to stop it. And yeah, if Wakanda shares its advancements and resources, people will try to abuse it...but I mean, even if he doesnt, who is to say some future Wakanda ruler wont just abuse it themselves? That none have until Killmonger is well, unrealistic, but I think people have pointed that out already.

Better atleast that someone as good as T'Challa be the one to share it, and hopefully do so wisely.

The best thing, really, that anyone can do is prepare for the worst...which is something I dont understand why it doesnt happen already.

Like, nukes are scary. But I dont understand why the powers that be ever think that the answer to nukes is 'more nukes'? I mean, Im not some secret government super scientist, but uh, wouldnt the best thing to have in a nuclear war be something that makes you immune to nukes?

And in a fantastical setting that Superheroes live in, well, anyone who is afraid of the damage vibranium will do, should look for ways to disable it...which in the movie already exists.

I actually don't know how unrealistic it is. Wakanda has every need met. So much so that they become the only place on Earth close to an Utopia. There's very little the outside world can actually teach and offer them that they don't have in abundance or have solved probably centuries ago.

I honestly commend the spirit of sharing that T'Challa has. Like his father said, he is a good man. And the best part of Boseman's performance is not only do we see how good of a man he is, but we see how much of a burden that is in just his first week of being King. I do not doubt for a second that he wants the best for the world at large.

But like his father said, it's difficult to be a good man and a king. His actions are impetuous. Like a good man, he wants to right a wrong. I get those feelings only too well. But this wrong can not be righted in such a fashion, or at least so quickly. If anything, keep the nation a secret and slowly... very, completely slowly... bring Vibranium into the world. Enough to power Every Hospital in the world for starters. See how people act. If no one tries to break in and steal this life giving source of energy and allows people to profit from the Wakandan kindness without incident, then release more.

We have the luxury of watching from a different plane of existence. It's obvious to us that Bruce Wayne is Batman because... hell, we see it. We're told many things so it's easy for us to say "Well, duh. Sonics, dude. You'll be fine". But for Centuries of working with the material, it took Shuri, a living 14-16 year old genius to come up with using Sonic dampening in a way to render the material inert.

If the Wakandans and possibly Tony aren't completely forthcoming with all the ins and outs with Vibranium, will it take just as long for the rest of the world to work out said countermeasure?

My problem is there's no growth with this material for the world. Every part of our lives we've adapted somewhat to because we were there for the infancy and saw how it grew. It was apart of our lives. We have some ideas of the power of these things that we take for granted, and what they could do. We can weigh the danger and the benefits somewhat side by side.

But instead, tomorrow people are going to see "Yo, Hoverbikes, dawg. They real as shit and tight as hell. And this African Country is giving it away." I think a lot of people are really not going to consider the potential downfalls if that news occurred and it was real. And for this, I'm just talking about personal safety. I don't even want to think about the kind of hard-on terrorist groups would have over just their mining equipment.

It will never cease to amaze me how many people pushing an agenda either never watch what they claim supports their argument or get basic information wrong.

altnameJag:

It will never cease to amaze me how many people pushing an agenda either never watch what they claim supports their argument or get basic information wrong.

This whole thing is making so many people, especially Alt-Righters, arguing in favor of an Ethnostate....and that's starting to get concerning.

Samtemdo8:

altnameJag:

It will never cease to amaze me how many people pushing an agenda either never watch what they claim supports their argument or get basic information wrong.

This whole thing is making so many people, especially Alt-Righters, arguing in favor of an Ethnostate....and that's starting to get concerning.

It's like the soyboy thing: they have a conclusion they already like, and against all logic, evidence, and sanity, attach it to something that's barely surface level plausible. Ideally, something lots of people like. (Bodybuilders distrusting soy, for no scientific reason, and "the wrong people" liking Black Panther)

Anyway, how big a gift basket you think M'Baku gets every Wakandan Christmas? Dude's legit.

EscapistAccount:

maninahat:

You have hit on a major problem I had with the movie though, in that its never really clear how much of a threat an imperialist Wakanda is.

That was what I was thinking, for all the smugness over the technological difference there wasn't a hell of a lot of difference between their tech level and, say, the cutting edge of Stark industries. Hell aside from the cloaking technology nothing they have is that much better than what other people have in the MCU. Now sure the Wakandans have vibranium which renders their vehicles and armour very hard to destroy but if the armour can flex at all then there are weapons that can kill the occupants, alternatively EMP and sonic disruption seems to work just fine and I have no doubt Stark can weaponise those. Vibranium isn't indestructible either, they have mining tools and process it so it's obviously possible to liquefy and break it plus you see several presumably Vibranium vehicles downed by directed energy weapons.

Hell, eventually this war over Earth, also known as one of the Nine Realms, would probably trigger Asgardian intervention since Thor is all about peace in the Nine Realms. Plus eventually they're going to swat down one of those typically ungainly and slow dragonfly vehicles (almost all sci-fi vehicles in films are significantly less nimble than actual fighter jets) and Iron Man gets upgraded to Vibranium Man. Or they just boot Banner in the dick and drop him on the city.

Among my other problems with this film it also seems to be a film set in the Avengers cinematic universe where everyone somehow forgot the Avengers exist.

Saelune:
When the law is counter-intuitive, oppressive, and bad, obeying it is stupid.

I'm not even going at it from that angle, I'm surprised there wasn't a law there already which'd let the Wakandan tribal council depose a Black Panther that had straight up gone insane. I'm surprised Killmonger didn't tell everyone to get out and the four tribal chiefs didn't meet somewhere, have a vote and then basically kick him out, as I say in a nation millennia old there is nearly always a precedent for deposing a ruler who's gone nuts.

To be honest I also have no idea why T'challa didn't just point at him when he wandered in and go 'hey, you're that guy who broke Klauw out of prison! Why'dcha do that Killmonger my matey?' and immediately watch whatever his name was be like 'you're the guy that made my best friend break his promise to avenge my parents? I'll kill you!' Well, other than that the plot couldn't have it.

The Avengers have never been able to defeat an army all on their own. In the first movie, they were about to be taken out by the Chitauri until that pilot brought in a nuke. In Age of Ultron, they needed SHIELD's help. And Thor will be a little busy helping his own people following Asgard's destruction to play realm police.

Silentpony:

bastardofmelbourne:
SNIP

Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

Killmonger mentions they have Wakandan spies all over the world. He wasn't just planning to fight armies outright but have Wakandan spies destabilize governments from within (like Ross said, he was still using the CIA playbook).

T'Challa for his part already knew who Killmonger really was and wanted to try to make amends until it became clear Killmonger was not interested. But Killmonger had already made sure to win the Border Tribe's loyalty by offering them Klaue and providing proof of his heritage through the ring. If T'Challa had made excuses, ignored the challenge and tried to lock him up, W'Kabi would have ignored the accusations as lies and called him out on defying tradition. T'Challa would lose the Border Tribe's loyalty and risk losing the loyalty of the other tribes and the Dora Milaje, risking a bloody civil war. As the end battle shows, the Border Tribe are a powerful military force and T'Challa can't risk losing them when he has a way to regain W'Kabi's faith.

Agent_Z:

Silentpony:

bastardofmelbourne:
SNIP

Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

Killmonger mentions they have Wakandan spies all over the world. He wasn't just planning to fight armies outright but have Wakandan spies destabilize governments from within (like Ross said, he was still using the CIA playbook).

T'Challa for his part already knew who Killmonger really was and wanted to try to make amends until it became clear Killmonger was not interested. But Killmonger had already made sure to win the Border Tribe's loyalty by offering them Klaue and providing proof of his heritage through the ring. If T'Challa had made excuses, ignored the challenge and tried to lock him up, W'Kabi would have ignored the accusations as lies and called him out on defying tradition. T'Challa would lose the Border Tribe's loyalty and risk losing the loyalty of the other tribes and the Dora Milaje, risking a bloody civil war. As the end battle shows, the Border Tribe are a powerful military force and T'Challa can't risk losing them when he has a way to regain W'Kabi's faith.

I mean not really. T'Challa could have easily stopped the entire thing. The Border tribe only wavered because Black Panther didn't bring them Klaue, and they only sided with Killmonger because he brought them Klaue. And T'C could have easily just said 'That's the man who freed Klaue, arrest him! He also shot me, helped Klaue steal, murdered innocents with Klaue, and is the son of the man who helped Klaue kill members of the Border Tribe."
Done. The Border tribe would have insisted on trampling Killmonger under a rhino.

Silentpony:

Agent_Z:

Silentpony:

Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

Killmonger mentions they have Wakandan spies all over the world. He wasn't just planning to fight armies outright but have Wakandan spies destabilize governments from within (like Ross said, he was still using the CIA playbook).

T'Challa for his part already knew who Killmonger really was and wanted to try to make amends until it became clear Killmonger was not interested. But Killmonger had already made sure to win the Border Tribe's loyalty by offering them Klaue and providing proof of his heritage through the ring. If T'Challa had made excuses, ignored the challenge and tried to lock him up, W'Kabi would have ignored the accusations as lies and called him out on defying tradition. T'Challa would lose the Border Tribe's loyalty and risk losing the loyalty of the other tribes and the Dora Milaje, risking a bloody civil war. As the end battle shows, the Border Tribe are a powerful military force and T'Challa can't risk losing them when he has a way to regain W'Kabi's faith.

I mean not really. T'Challa could have easily stopped the entire thing. The Border tribe only wavered because Black Panther didn't bring them Klaue, and they only sided with Killmonger because he brought them Klaue. And T'C could have easily just said 'That's the man who freed Klaue, arrest him! He also shot me, helped Klaue steal, murdered innocents with Klaue, and is the son of the man who helped Klaue kill members of the Border Tribe."
Done. The Border tribe would have insisted on trampling Killmonger under a rhino.

And you don't think Killmonger would have just denied it and accused T'Challa of trying to weasel his way out of a challenge?

Agent_Z:

Silentpony:

Agent_Z:

Killmonger mentions they have Wakandan spies all over the world. He wasn't just planning to fight armies outright but have Wakandan spies destabilize governments from within (like Ross said, he was still using the CIA playbook).

T'Challa for his part already knew who Killmonger really was and wanted to try to make amends until it became clear Killmonger was not interested. But Killmonger had already made sure to win the Border Tribe's loyalty by offering them Klaue and providing proof of his heritage through the ring. If T'Challa had made excuses, ignored the challenge and tried to lock him up, W'Kabi would have ignored the accusations as lies and called him out on defying tradition. T'Challa would lose the Border Tribe's loyalty and risk losing the loyalty of the other tribes and the Dora Milaje, risking a bloody civil war. As the end battle shows, the Border Tribe are a powerful military force and T'Challa can't risk losing them when he has a way to regain W'Kabi's faith.

I mean not really. T'Challa could have easily stopped the entire thing. The Border tribe only wavered because Black Panther didn't bring them Klaue, and they only sided with Killmonger because he brought them Klaue. And T'C could have easily just said 'That's the man who freed Klaue, arrest him! He also shot me, helped Klaue steal, murdered innocents with Klaue, and is the son of the man who helped Klaue kill members of the Border Tribe."
Done. The Border tribe would have insisted on trampling Killmonger under a rhino.

And you don't think Killmonger would have just denied it and accused T'Challa of trying to weasel his way out of a challenge?

The black panther suit records things in real-time, as shown with his sister knowing whats going on without being there, and instructing him to watch out for X, or turn Y, when a simple audio connection wouldn't allow that.
Just bring up visual recording of the suit.
And bring in the priest, who T'C told about Killmonger.
It'd be 3-1

Silentpony:

Agent_Z:

Silentpony:
At the time, T'Challa didn't want to put his father as having killed his uncle and stranding his cousin in 1990's LA.

I mean not really. T'Challa could have easily stopped the entire thing. The Border tribe only wavered because Black Panther didn't bring them Klaue, and they only sided with Killmonger because he brought them Klaue. And T'C could have easily just said 'That's the man who freed Klaue, arrest him! He also shot me, helped Klaue steal, murdered innocents with Klaue, and is the son of the man who helped Klaue kill members of the Border Tribe."
Done. The Border tribe would have insisted on trampling Killmonger under a rhino.

And you don't think Killmonger would have just denied it and accused T'Challa of trying to weasel his way out of a challenge?

The black panther suit records things in real-time, as shown with his sister knowing whats going on without being there, and instructing him to watch out for X, or turn Y, when a simple audio connection wouldn't allow that.
Just bring up visual recording of the suit.
And bring in the priest, who T'C told about Killmonger.
It'd be 3-1

While that coul've worked, I don't think T'Challa's pride would let him admit, in front of everybody, that his dad killed his uncle and stranded his royal blooded cousin in 1990's LA.

And that his Uncle was the reason they'd been chasing Klaue all this time in the first place. I mean, the royal family being directly responsible for the loss of a ton of vibranium and a large number of border clan deaths?

Silentpony:

Agent_Z:

Silentpony:

I mean not really. T'Challa could have easily stopped the entire thing. The Border tribe only wavered because Black Panther didn't bring them Klaue, and they only sided with Killmonger because he brought them Klaue. And T'C could have easily just said 'That's the man who freed Klaue, arrest him! He also shot me, helped Klaue steal, murdered innocents with Klaue, and is the son of the man who helped Klaue kill members of the Border Tribe."
Done. The Border tribe would have insisted on trampling Killmonger under a rhino.

And you don't think Killmonger would have just denied it and accused T'Challa of trying to weasel his way out of a challenge?

The black panther suit records things in real-time, as shown with his sister knowing whats going on without being there, and instructing him to watch out for X, or turn Y, when a simple audio connection wouldn't allow that.
Just bring up visual recording of the suit.
And bring in the priest, who T'C told about Killmonger.
It'd be 3-1

When did we see the suit recording anything? I know Shuri gets visual and audio feeds from the suit but I don't remember seeing it recording any footage.

Saw it last night, liked it a lot. The tech was really cool, Shuri was a ton of fun, and Killmonger was the best kind of villain. The kind that you go "I sympathize with you, but goddamn I'm glad you're going to lose".

That said, I do think his plan was doomed to fail. Eventually.

Given he would have been striking out in guerilla raids at core structures of command at first, and that the movie takes place like a week after Civil War (meaning the Avengers are completely torn apart and disorganized, Hulk is missing, Thor is off gallivanting around the cosmos looking for Stones and Odin is ignoring earth entirely), he could have inflicted a hell of a lot of damage on the world. It was the opportune moment to pull something like this.

But then all that needs to happen is for the Sorcerers to regard this as an existential threat and suddenly things aren't so easy. That and if Tony and Vision gets their hands on some advanced vibranium tech, I give it about a week before he has a counter-response. Massive bloody world war, and eventually Wakanda would stand a very good chance to lose due to sheer numbers disadvantage the moment their tech gets caught up with.

Then again, I think Killmonger didn't really care by the end. As long as there was his big bloody war of revenge, he'd get what he wanted one way or another.

ObsidianJones:

But instead, tomorrow people are going to see "Yo, Hoverbikes, dawg. They real as shit and tight as hell. And this African Country is giving it away." I think a lot of people are really not going to consider the potential downfalls if that news occurred and it was real. And for this, I'm just talking about personal safety. I don't even want to think about the kind of hard-on terrorist groups would have over just their mining equipment.

Somehow I doubt T'Challa would just start mass exporting Vibranium, he's not stupid.

There's still a ton of stuff they could teach the outside world without just giving away Vibranium itself. Insane advancements in medicine, massively improve computing, and maybe occasionally selling or giving away certain technologies like Kimoyo beads or those super-advanced hospital beds. I'm pretty sure most countries in the world wouldn't say no to the cure for cancer.

To say nothing of "Oh, more aliens are dropping in on a major city? My ships will be there in 10 minutes and will start chewing through them like candy bars, you're welcome".

Silentpony:

Agent_Z:

Silentpony:

Thank you! Finally someone else agrees Killmonger's plans seem very simply and well...unplanned. Like a few hundred admittedly well armed and trained soldiers are going to take on every army in the world, at the same time, and win.
And they don't have BattleMechs, robot armies, tanks, boats of any kind, and only low level fighters(although they could have bombers and larger craft we didn't see), and that the poor of each nation will willfully take up arms against their own Government, and then submit to a King.

Also why didn't Black Panther just tell everyone about Killmonger, that his dad betrayed Wakanda, was responsible for the deaths of that one dude's parents, stole Virbranium, and that Killmonger himself was working for Klaw, freed him, and attempted to kill Black Panther in the process.
Boom. All credibility lost, the guard ladies stab him, the blue caped chief looks the fool and is punished, but potential revolution is averted, hundreds are still alive, and the flower garden is still kicking.

Killmonger mentions they have Wakandan spies all over the world. He wasn't just planning to fight armies outright but have Wakandan spies destabilize governments from within (like Ross said, he was still using the CIA playbook).

T'Challa for his part already knew who Killmonger really was and wanted to try to make amends until it became clear Killmonger was not interested. But Killmonger had already made sure to win the Border Tribe's loyalty by offering them Klaue and providing proof of his heritage through the ring. If T'Challa had made excuses, ignored the challenge and tried to lock him up, W'Kabi would have ignored the accusations as lies and called him out on defying tradition. T'Challa would lose the Border Tribe's loyalty and risk losing the loyalty of the other tribes and the Dora Milaje, risking a bloody civil war. As the end battle shows, the Border Tribe are a powerful military force and T'Challa can't risk losing them when he has a way to regain W'Kabi's faith.

I mean not really. T'Challa could have easily stopped the entire thing. The Border tribe only wavered because Black Panther didn't bring them Klaue, and they only sided with Killmonger because he brought them Klaue. And T'C could have easily just said 'That's the man who freed Klaue, arrest him! He also shot me, helped Klaue steal, murdered innocents with Klaue, and is the son of the man who helped Klaue kill members of the Border Tribe."
Done. The Border tribe would have insisted on trampling Killmonger under a rhino.

It's a fair point, but I think Killmonger was only using Klaue's body to get his foot in the door. He probably fully expected T'Challa to point out the scam by the time he became aware of Killmonger's arrival, but by then Killmonger has already launched into his actual plan; calling the king out and challenging him in one on one combat. Yes T'Challa can easily say "don't listen to that asshole, just kick him out the country and execute him," but Killmonger was exploiting a combination of momentum, stupid tradition, T'Challa's need to safe face, and the guy's sense of guilt.

Silentpony:

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

Probably he didn't watch the whole movie (like when Wakanda decided to open their borders at the end).

One other thing I noticed. Are the mountain-dwelling Wakandans Hindu? This stuck out to me that a nation that seems to otherwise worship an Egyptian goddess has a giant fucking statue of Hanuman built into the mountainside.

Now I'm wondering what the story is behind that one. Like some missionaries from India 2500 years ago made it all the way there, set up a Hare Krishna-esque kiosk and just stayed there?

Yes I saw this movie, and I am still baffled as to why this movie earned so much money because I have seen this movie before.

I called every single fuckin thing that I fully expected to happen.

I cringed at every attempt at humor and hardly laughed. (WHAT ARE THOSE SHOES?!)

I knew the kind of action set-pieces this movie would do, heck the South Korea part heavily reminded me of Skyfall.

This movie was so generic and gutless, this movie lampshades how black people are being oppressed outside of Wakanda and they didn't go full on show that. Imagine if they went full on Boyz in da Hood/Stright Outta Compton in some scenes to showcase properly the villain's motivations.

Heck so far the only praise I can give to this movie is the villain because he was the most fleshed out, heck imo he should have had a redemption instead of killing him off. Like so many Superhero movie villains.

In the end I am convinced this movie became succesful is mostly due to the complete and utter lack of competition when it released because January and February had nothing of interest in the theater.

Samtemdo8:

In the end I am convinced this movie became succesful is mostly due to the complete and utter lack of competition when it released because January and February had nothing of interest in the theater.

There's probably a number of reasons, including that one, but I think you're selling some of the other factors a little short. It also probably helps that the Marvel Universe as a whole has remained pretty popular and its movies seemed to have at least consistently been perceived as 'good,' and Thor: Ragnarok seeming to have done quite well for itself. Black Panther was introduced in Civil War, a film that itself seemed to be received quite well, both in general and for his role in particular.

Now, this isn't to say there's no fatigue building, but Marvel Studios had a pretty solid way to spark renewed interest; the new Avengers movie. The trailer for Avengers: Infinity War landed on the Marvel Youtube page on January 29th, the same day Black Panther came out. As someone who still remembers being a wide-eyed teenage moviegoer first seeing that end credit scene in the first Iron Man movie... fuck, even I was pretty hyped. That marketing move was spot on, the timing was perfect to stoke the fires of enthusiasm when it came to Marvel films and shake off lingering fatigue.

Look at Justice League. I think it goes without saying that between them and Black Panther, they had the biggest advantage in terms of comic book 'star power.' Part of what originally would have made Batman v Superman such a good idea is between the animated shows, the Christopher Reeves Superman films and the metric ton of Batman movies, these characters alone could get a lot of butts in seats, and that's without even counting the other characters.

And yet Black Panther soundly kicked its ass domestically, overtaking the amount of money it had made during its entire run within, what, four days? You can't say that the deciding factor was when the movies launched, that's ludicrous. I also don't think it could be explained entirely by the issues Justice League itself had, (which, to be fair, often boiled down to its troubled production,) and instead on where these movies were coming from.

Black Panther didn't have any significant fuckups or shortcomings in prior movies to get people jittery about seeing it, as his only prior movie was the solidly received Civil War. As far as I know there were no reports of trouble behind the scenes, either. Justice League had trouble aplenty, and had the misfortune of coming off the heels of Batman v Superman, which did a pretty handy job kneecapping a lot of audience enthusiasm with its shoddy theatrical release. Suicide Squad, unfortunately, wasn't the counter-punch the studio needed to rebuild a hype train, leaving Justice League dragging some hefty chains in its wake. Now, JL could have possibly turned this around, the very first trailer showed promise and sparked interest, even if it was rather guarded with Batman v Superman fresh on everyone's mind. But then the reports of production issues arose, and, well... it was fucked, even before it actually hit theatres.

Basically, (and I'm speaking as someone who never got around to seeing Black Panther and can't speak as to whether or not the film itself is good,) I can think of tons of reasons the film would do very well. All Black Panther would have really needed was to have been 'good enough' to enough people for them to recommend it to friends and family, which reviews and general buzz seem to suggest was the case, even if you disagree. Combine that with the Marvel hype train, bolstered by excitement for Infinity War and the success of Thor: Ragnarok, and presto, runaway hit.

Samtemdo8:
Yes I saw this movie, and I am still baffled as to why this movie earned so much money because I have seen this movie before.

I called every single fuckin thing that I fully expected to happen.

I cringed at every attempt at humor and hardly laughed. (WHAT ARE THOSE SHOES?!)

I knew the kind of action set-pieces this movie would do, heck the South Korea part heavily reminded me of Skyfall.

This movie was so generic and gutless, this movie lampshades how black people are being oppressed outside of Wakanda and they didn't go full on show that. Imagine if they went full on Boyz in da Hood/Stright Outta Compton in some scenes to showcase properly the villain's motivations.

Heck so far the only praise I can give to this movie is the villain because he was the most fleshed out, heck imo he should have had a redemption instead of killing him off. Like so many Superhero movie villains.

In the end I am convinced this movie became succesful is mostly due to the complete and utter lack of competition when it released because January and February had nothing of interest in the theater.

is it time to point out that Skyfall was pretty generic? In fact Casino Royale was the least generic Bond movie in the last 20 years (my memory starts to fade more than that and I can assure you, I'm going through another boring Bond film just to make sure.) I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying that's what movies do, steal off each other. (I remember dumping on Westworld becuase that was so predictable too. I can't imagine anyone saying that was innovative or imaginative. But then I remember how most shows are just riffs on previous shows.)

I personally felt there was a disconnect between the motivations of the villain and his response - I understand being hurt but enough to kill everyone and thing. Really?

trunkage:

Samtemdo8:
Yes I saw this movie, and I am still baffled as to why this movie earned so much money because I have seen this movie before.

I called every single fuckin thing that I fully expected to happen.

I cringed at every attempt at humor and hardly laughed. (WHAT ARE THOSE SHOES?!)

I knew the kind of action set-pieces this movie would do, heck the South Korea part heavily reminded me of Skyfall.

This movie was so generic and gutless, this movie lampshades how black people are being oppressed outside of Wakanda and they didn't go full on show that. Imagine if they went full on Boyz in da Hood/Stright Outta Compton in some scenes to showcase properly the villain's motivations.

Heck so far the only praise I can give to this movie is the villain because he was the most fleshed out, heck imo he should have had a redemption instead of killing him off. Like so many Superhero movie villains.

In the end I am convinced this movie became succesful is mostly due to the complete and utter lack of competition when it released because January and February had nothing of interest in the theater.

is it time to point out that Skyfall was pretty generic? In fact Casino Royale was the least generic Bond movie in the last 20 years (my memory starts to fade more than that and I can assure you, I'm going through another boring Bond film just to make sure.) I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying that's what movies do, steal off each other. (I remember dumping on Westworld becuase that was so predictable too. I can't imagine anyone saying that was innovative or imaginative. But then I remember how most shows are just riffs on previous shows.)

I personally felt there was a disconnect between the motivations of the villain and his response - I understand being hurt but enough to kill everyone and thing. Really?

Yes, Skyfall was utterly generic in the end, heck the Villain in that movie is discount Nolan Joker but he's somewhat gay.

Than again Casino Royale was lambasted for being seen as copying Bourne Identity.

And Westworld is again just recycling the same old Skynet/Matrix plot with robots.

And yes the villain went from irredeemable asshole to sympathetic tragic villain.

CaitSeith:

Silentpony:

LysanderNemoinis:
I personally find it hilarious that douchebag extraordinaire Richard Spencer has said he thinks the movie's great because it's all about an ethnostate and how his fellow Marxists in the critic community say how wonderful it is, backing up his theory that all races should live completely seperate from eachother.

With no love for Spencer, isn't Wakanda an ethnostate? A xenophobic, anti-immigration, monarchy that conducts international espionage on all other Nations and decides on the world's behalf what the world can and cannot have? I mean if the point of the movie is that Wakanda is great because Wakanda stood alone for so long, and the take away audiences have is 'Yes, more nations should stand alone!' I can see how Spencer got to his point of view.

I don't agree, personally, but I can see how he got there.

Probably he didn't watch the whole movie (like when Wakanda decided to open their borders at the end).

Or the beginning of the story, where they explicitly call out five ethnicities, four of which build the nation and one of which fucks off into the mountains.

Spencer types confuse ethnicity and race quite a bit, except when it come to the Jews or any particular batch of Europeans they have personal beef with.

Though yeah, Wakanda starts out as a mono-race isolationist state with a heavy hand in espionage, and then the movie goes to great lengths explaining how that's a bad thing.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here