Dexter's Laboratory was the greatest modern kid's cartoon ever made.

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I'm enjoying My Little Pony after actually sitting down with it.

In 4 months, I have seen all of it, own as much of the seasons as possible, own the movie, saw it in cinema, own the books, memorised the Journal of the Two Sisters, and own all of the comics (and multiple issues of various of them). Also own a number of the Hasbro figures particularly the Guardians of Harmony and fan series models.

And I can't think of a single cartoon that made me invest so much time, energy, and sink ever more money into it.

I 'joined the herd' way later than most.

I made the mistake of watching only the first two episodesand writing it off as a colourful kid's show. But if you actually sit down to watch more of it it sucks you in. Leaves you wanting more of every single character.

Although I can't stand Star Swirl... so much lore dependent on him. It's annoying from a worldbuilding perspective.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
I'm enjoying My Little Pony after actually sitting down with it.

In 4 months, I have seen all of it, own as much of the seasons as possible, own the movie, saw it in cinema, own the books, memorised the Journal of the Two Sisters, and own all of the comics (and multiple issues of various of them). Also own a number of the Hasbro figures particularly the Guardians of Harmony and fan series models.

And I can't think of a single cartoon that made me invest so much time, energy, and sink ever more money into it.

I 'joined the herd' way later than most.

I made the mistake of watching only the first two episodesand writing it off as a colourful kid's show. But if you actually sit down to watch more of it it sucks you in. Leaves you wanting more of every single character.

Although I can't stand Star Swirl... so much lore dependent on him. It's annoying from a worldbuilding perspective.

...and I thought that Worgen was our resident unicorn keeper. 0_0

Not that I'm complaining, since I like MLP as well (maybe to not that extent), but while I do have an issue with Star Swirl, I don't see the problem there that you mention. What gets to me is that in the Season 8 finale we have yet another example where a villain is redeemed through "the magic of friendship," with Star Swirl being there and of course being an obnoxious arse because...plot!

I get it, it's a show called friendship is magic, with the magic of friendship being a literal force in the world, and this is a show designed for kids, but it seems that we can't have any villain nowadays that won't eventually become friends with the Mane 6 for shits and giggles. Heck, even an entire race can give up its way of life on a whim for this (the changelings) bar some exceptions, and even then Chrysalis will probably get on the friendship train as well.

Do I expect too much? Maybe. But while MLP has done redemption stories well (Luna, Discord, Starlight (eventually)), I find that it's starting to wear out its welcome for me.

But on the subject of this thread, still above Dexter's Lab, so, um, yay.

Hawki:

...and I thought that Worgen was our resident unicorn keeper. 0_0

Worgen was the one that got me hooked on the show. Originally I only watched the first two episodes to see what the fuss was, and left it at that. But with Worgen's encouragement I watched further, and by the time of Rarity's Art of the Dress I was hooked and started hoovering up as much materials as I could.

It also helps that the comics are so wonderful. Gotta love those Andy Price and Sara Richard covers. Fleecs' stuff isn't bad either...

So I don't plan on usurping that title yet, given I don't really know much if anything of the fandom beyond some awesome wallpaper material and the pretty engrossing Fallout Equestria stuff.

I will say that beyond Sunset Shimmer I'm not a huge fan of the EG stuff beyond the holiday specials and other comic related tangents. I didn't mind the Forgotten Friendship special they had recently, but it's definitely the spin off that isn't catching with me.

So it's not merely mindless consumerism. Well it is, but it's not irrationally mindless consumerism that underpins why I'm invested.

Not that I'm complaining, since I like MLP as well (maybe to not that extent), but while I do have an issue with Star Swirl, I don't see the problem there that you mention. What gets to me is that in the Season 8 finale we have yet another example where a villain is redeemed through "the magic of friendship," with Star Swirl being there and of course being an obnoxious arse because...plot!

I get it, it's a show called friendship is magic, with the magic of friendship being a literal force in the world, and this is a show designed for kids, but it seems that we can't have any villain nowadays that won't eventually become friends with the Mane 6 for shits and giggles. Heck, even an entire race can give up its way of life on a whim for this (the changelings) bar some exceptions, and even then Chrysalis will probably get on the friendship train as well.

Yeah, once again I'm not a huge fan of Star Swirl. I get the show is character driven, but pinning so much of everything to Star Swirl is a bad idea. Particularly when I'm practically crying out for more Celestia based episodes that explores the worldbuilding lore more fully.

While you can make the argument that a 'kid's show' ... but Adventure Time does it well (speaking of shows that also beat Dexter's).

In MLP it's like, everything in the past has stuff to do with Star Swirl ... and then a thousand years of peace, the end.

That being said I hope a reformed Chrysalis is a hell of a lot more 'pointy'. Kind of like a less random Discord, still conniving, whimsical with her allegiances and utterly flighty in the face of another's hardship. Give her some spikes.

Do I expect too much? Maybe. But while MLP has done redemption stories well (Luna, Discord, Starlight (eventually)), I find that it's starting to wear out its welcome for me.

But on the subject of this thread, still above Dexter's Lab, so, um, yay.

I think I wouldn't ejoy MLP as much as I have if it wasn't for the strength of the voice actors. Don't get me wrong, there's some really bad episodes. But what I've often found is that bad episodes still deliver memorable moments and some fun character interaction.

I could compare it to Rocko's Modern Life (also a better kid's cartoon than Dexter's) which was my favourite cartoon as a kid... something that really engrossed me as a kid.

I must admit thinking to myself; "Wow, this is probably the best depiction of an Australian on mainstream tv." Which is kind of funny,. Rocko is laid back, a stranger in a strange land, terrified of being sent back home (Australia wasn't always so weathy, particularly after the Black Tuesday market crisis that sent living standards plummeting...) and is somewhat at the mercy of bad friends who take constant advantage of him, a job he likes that will never really afford him a quality of life that as a decent individual he seems to deserve over everyone else, and through quiet stoicism and comfort food he rarely gets to enjoy for himself he simply gets on with life.

I think Rocko's Modern Life truly encapsulated what it was like growing up in the 90s. Your friends were jerks, your parents were jerks, you didn't get why older people were jerks because nothing in your life seemed positively that bad that a decent, permanent full time job you could still manage to get back then going into the very early 2000s would theoretically set you up for life.

I mean back then you could enlist at 16 and 6 months, no real questions asked. Which was a pretty common thing for a lot of homeless youth that had been kicked out of home.

I guess Rocko's Modern Life spoke to me about growing up and realizing the world is ultimately an impersonal place where even the people who are supposed to 'get you' won't be liable to or even consider it important.

But apart from things like Aeon Flux and The Maxx, MLP is the first cartoon in ages than actually made me want to look into the comics (if any), the lore, the books ...

My Little Pony has a strange form of magic that makes it incredibly hard to put down.

Speaking of 90s cartoons ...

The Maxx comic books were better, but the tv miniseries was amazing ...

I will say decidedly not kid's material, but even in the 90s the bar was set pretty high for animation. MTV may have been garbage, but the gems it did helpbring to public acclaim were just that, gems. And as a kid you'd watch this stuff, buy the VHS cassettes if you could ...

No internet really, and even then, 56.6k modems.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

I will say that beyond Sunset Shimmer I'm not a huge fan of the EG stuff beyond the holiday specials and other comic related tangents. I didn't mind the Forgotten Friendship special they had recently, but it's definitely the spin off that isn't catching with me.

I'm in a similar position. Sunset is easily one of my favorite characters in the entire setting, but beyond her, there's little that interests me in EQG, and the chances of her becoming a regular in FiM are slim, considering that Starlight is effectively the same character. Also doesn't help that the EQG franchise is in a different place from where it started. I'd argue that the first three films form a good narrative arc for Sunset, whereas the fourth film is really a launching off point for EQG to do its own thing with the shorts and powers thing (perhaps not coincidentally, my ranking of the EQG films goes 2>3>1>4). I'm betting that this is intentional from a marketing point of view, but from a narrative/character point of view, EQG seems to have become its own thing. Sunset included.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Yeah, once again I'm not a huge fan of Star Swirl. I get the show is character driven, but pinning so much of everything to Star Swirl is a bad idea. Particularly when I'm practically crying out for more Celestia based episodes that explores the worldbuilding lore more fully.

While you can make the argument that a 'kid's show' ... but Adventure Time does it well (speaking of shows that also beat Dexter's).

Adventure Time aside (to put it extremely mildly, I'm not a fan)...okay, MLP does have reasonably consistent worldbuilding, even if it's done in pretty broad strokes. I'd cite Avatar as an example of a kid's show that does have excellent worldbuilding (and characters, and plot, and...), but I'm guessing you're going to be waiting a long time. Doesn't help that Celestia seems to have succumbed to the Worf Effect, that she exists mainly to highlight how the villains are more powerful, despite her own power being enough to MOVE THE SUN.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

In MLP it's like, everything in the past has stuff to do with Star Swirl ... and then a thousand years of peace, the end.

http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Fictional_chronology[/quote]

That might be an exageration. It isn't the most detailed timeline in fiction, but there's still a fair bit of stuff that goes on beyond Luna and Celstia taking the throne, and before the start of the series, and even then, stuff happened without Star Swirl being involved (e.g. the blizzard pony/wendigo/stuff...stuff.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

That being said I hope a reformed Chrysalis is a hell of a lot more 'pointy'. Kind of like a less random Discord, still conniving, whimsical with her allegiances and utterly flighty in the face of another's hardship. Give her some spikes.

Is it too much to hope for that Chrysalis isn't reformed?

Might be a slim hope, but there's only so many times the show can play the reformed villain card, even by the standards of a show literally titled Friendship is Magic. I don't think it would be that hard, to have a villain/villains that stay villains, to show that 'friendship wins the day' or whatnot. I mean, in Care Bares, Lord Noheart never got redeemed (not that I really remember - what I do remember is that the show seemed to make Shrieky the villain more than him because...reasons).

Addendum_Forthcoming:

I could compare it to Rocko's Modern Life (also a better kid's cartoon than Dexter's) which was my favourite cartoon as a kid... something that really engrossed me as a kid.

I must admit thinking to myself; "Wow, this is probably the best depiction of an Australian on mainstream tv." Which is kind of funny,. Rocko is laid back, a stranger in a strange land, terrified of being sent back home (Australia wasn't always so weathy, particularly after the Black Tuesday market crisis that sent living standards plummeting...) and is somewhat at the mercy of bad friends who take constant advantage of him, a job he likes that will never really afford him a quality of life that as a decent individual he seems to deserve over everyone else, and through quiet stoicism and comfort food he rarely gets to enjoy for himself he simply gets on with life.

I think Rocko's Modern Life truly encapsulated what it was like growing up in the 90s. Your friends were jerks, your parents were jerks, you didn't get why older people were jerks because nothing in your life seemed positively that bad that a decent, permanent full time job you could still manage to get back then going into the very early 2000s would theoretically set you up for life.

I mean back then you could enlist at 16 and 6 months, no real questions asked. Which was a pretty common thing for a lot of homeless youth that had been kicked out of home.

I guess Rocko's Modern Life spoke to me about growing up and realizing the world is ultimately an impersonal place where even the people who are supposed to 'get you' won't be liable to or even consider it important.

It's been ages since I've seen Rocko. I liked it, but TBH, I didn't really get the same themes. Might have been too young to appreciate them (I would have been 4-7 over its run), but I can't say I got the things you mentioned above. I know Rocko's a wallaby from Australia, who's sent to what I assume is America, but I don't recall that ever really coming up as a cultural/societal issue. Cows, turtles, frogs, etc. aren't quintisentially American animals after all, and even then, I don't recall Rocko being taken advantage of. Heffa was a doofus, Filbert was a nervous wreck, Mr Bighead was loud and obnoxious, Mrs Bighead had the hots for him, but Rocko seemed to make do by being perhaps the most sane character there was, at least in the main cast. I remember when Heffa moved in with Rocko and started taking advantage of his hospitality, but even then that seemed to come down to more Heffa being ignorant of the harm he was doing rather than being a jerk per se.

But like I said, been ages since I've seen the show. But I would put it above Dexter as well, so there is that.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

My Little Pony has a strange form of magic that makes it incredibly hard to put down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Magic_(film)

Ooh, like that? :P

Hawki:

I'm in a similar position. Sunset is easily one of my favorite characters in the entire setting, but beyond her, there's little that interests me in EQG, and the chances of her becoming a regular in FiM are slim, considering that Starlight is effectively the same character. Also doesn't help that the EQG franchise is in a different place from where it started. I'd argue that the first three films form a good narrative arc for Sunset, whereas the fourth film is really a launching off point for EQG to do its own thing with the shorts and powers thing (perhaps not coincidentally, my ranking of the EQG films goes 2>3>1>4). I'm betting that this is intentional from a marketing point of view, but from a narrative/character point of view, EQG seems to have become its own thing. Sunset included.

I'm personally warming up to Starlight, and I sort of agree? I think the only reason why I'm warming up to Starlight is predominantly because I hope it leads to more Trixie. The poroblem of Sunset in Equestria proper would require shifting Starlight off to do her own thing. Much like Celestia did for Twilight.

Gotta say ... that's awhole lot of reformed unicorns at this point. Kind of due for an Earth or Pegasus pony villain to antagonise the group as if a Pony-threat from within their own by now, surely?

In fact the reason why I really like Trixie and Rarity is the fact that they're unicorns that apparently only have a selective degree of magic at their disposal. Trixie relies on practical magic effects and Rarity has sufficiently tailored them to being able to move a chaise fainting couch perpetually off screen and being incredibly adept at wielding an ice cream spoon and a thread and needle. They aren't obsessed with it, they aren't just magically good at it (how exactly does one simply just be good at magic? Is it like Mage: The Awakening?), and Sunset (in the comics) is painted almost as if merely a more callous Twilight Sparkle in terms of her study-centric lifestyle when she was studying in Celestia's school.

And in both the comics and the show, Sunset is at least a few good years older than Twilight. Which takes the chronology and throws it under a bus. Perhaps even more than a 1000 year old school principal given she actively lives on the otherside of the mirror. But naturally we won't address the problems of EQG ... just don't think about it.

I can only assume there's another Sunset out there thinking she's going bonkers after watching herself appear in the Daring Do movie.

Because that wouldn't be emotionally traumatizing AF to realize you have an honest to god doppelganger. As it stands, the only reason why I assume Sunset hasn't been confronted by her other half is because she's either dead, or in a mental institution trying to convince the police a doppelganger is living her life and trying to replace her. I do like in Forgotten Friendship how Sunset finally got a chance to do what she should have done after the first movie ...

I will also say she's awesome in the Fall of Sunset Shimmer.

As for ranking the EQG movies ... I ehhh ... eh. Probably Rainbow Rocks is my favourite. I feel like it's the one movie where people actually begin to recognize they often treat Sunset like garbage.

I am really enjoying the specials and the shorts, though. And the last one, Forgotten Friendship, actually ticks off boxes I wanted to see in Sunset's character development. Which I won't really spoil, here, given it's fairly recent.

But it does inject more Sunset development which is kind of important... and more helicopter parenting (friendshipping?) Twilight Sparkle, which is always fun. If incredibly creepy and awkward, how is she the Princess of Friendship again? Sunset as a reformed villain is a way less creepy pony.

I think the biggest disconnect for me in EQG is the fact that I don't understand why they took established characters. It tells methat they definitely weren't going to market this to the cross demographic appeal of FiM. Which strikes me as a massive big question mark over the showrunners who pushed the story editor to make it so.

Meghan McCarthy ... She's a damn good story editor if given the licence and the freedom to collate the ideas together. I can only imagine that the showrunners themselves probably were like; "Gotta be like this, don't ask questions or change characters. You get one new villain to play with, be grateful."

They could have shown new people which makes more sense. I do not see Rarity as a teenager. Did her parents in Equestria just give her a business loan? Rarity makes sense in Equestria ... she doesn't make sense in a high school as a teenager. Maybe a teacher. I could totally see her being the school's Design & Tech teacher, teaching kids how to use a sewing machine, make handicrafts, draw up patternmaking templates, etc... not as a student.

Because being a professional designer actually requires study. It means understanding the machines of the trade (and there are a lot of them) ... it's about understanding colour theory. Understanding materials science of the fabrics you're working with, etc. It is not something a teenager can simply 'get' ... being a designer is like being an engineer AND artist with fabric. Knowing the tools to get stuff done, knowing the maths, knowing the materials you're working with, understanding the science behind fabrication ... and you have to package all of that into an outfit that will sell.

And frankly that goes for the rest of the Mane 6 barring Rainbow Dash ... who I see as terminally unemployable in any less magically, less socialist agrarian paradise run by the benevolent dictator, Premier Celestia of the Union of Equestrian Socialist Republics.

Regardless, if they took Sunset out of Equestria Girls, my interest in EQG would plummet.

Adventure Time aside (to put it extremely mildly, I'm not a fan)...okay, MLP does have reasonably consistent worldbuilding, even if it's done in pretty broad strokes. I'd cite Avatar as an example of a kid's show that does have excellent worldbuilding (and characters, and plot, and...), but I'm guessing you're going to be waiting a long time. Doesn't help that Celestia seems to have succumbed to the Worf Effect, that she exists mainly to highlight how the villains are more powerful, despite her own power being enough to MOVE THE SUN.

Yes .... Celestia and Luna together used 6 elements at once to seal away Discord. Who is effectively the biggest counterbalancing deity of Equestria. Celestia, in particular, suffers the Worf Effect eggregiously. Which is a problem when all you get is snippets of a distant past showing how powerful she is, and then querying why exactly she doesn't seem to reflect that power. I will say that you don't actually need a Celestia and Luna to move the Sun and the Moon. Unicorns, collectively, could move the Sun and the Moon. It's just that it was incredibly taxing on all of them.

She can still appear incredibly threatening...

But then again, if you're almost three times taller than the average pony and can move the Sun AND the Moon if you need to (like for a thousand years...) you're going to be fairly threatening regardless whenever you're ticked off. Luna at least has the excuse that she had been somewhat stunted in terms of experience given her sentencing to the Moon.

It's nice that what is effectively early Equestria you actually see what would have been fairly young Celestia and Luna actually imprison Discord. Which at least cement the idea that there wasa time they were perhaps more proactive with their magical power.

As for Star Swirl ... Yeah, I'm being facetious. But it doesn't help that in the FIRST ENTRY of the Journal of the Two Sisters, it mentions Star Swirl. It mentions Star Swirl before Princess Platinum... Or Amore.

In the The Journal of the Two Sisters, Clover the Clever, Private Pansy, and Smart Cookie were representatives of Star Swirl, who had effectively worked hisway to achieving the respects of all of them in turn... it was Star Swirl the Bearded that encouraged Celestia and Luna to basically claim dominion to Equestria. The first of Celestia's drawings in the FIRST ENTRY OF THE JOURNAL is a picture of Star Swirl.

Star Swirl is Gandalf with all the most egregious bullshit of the Istar(i) and their relationship to the Maiar and the very dawn of creation.

After the Perfect Pear I was happy the show actually dealt with concepts of death and passing on. And in the episodes closing up the season, I loved the fact that Luna and Celestia had accepted Star Swirl had departed. Had passed on. The only thing they wanted to know was how did he die. What happened to him in his final moments.

It's touching.

It actually made Star Swirl seem like a real character, a good teacher, that left an indelible mark on his students that resists the deterioration of time, and as a former teacher that got me right there. That's what any teacher wants. To leave a respect for academia and the pursuit of truth, one that is passed on from teacher to pupil, and from pupil to the next generation... and so on. It's why a teacher can rightly proclaim themselves a defender of civilization. A torchbearer in the otherwise only darkness...

But to bring him back ... REALLY!?

I think it's a testament to the show however that I'm actually this invested to be this angry... but I can't help but miss a heartbeat of pointng out why it would have been better if the gang found out Star Swirl had passed away helping Equestria, that he had departed in an honourable way and through the illumination of his departure realize just how fully he helped Equestria ... and that can be something that we can actually see Celestia, Luna and Twilight actually bond closer over through a shared (if in Twilight's case, distant) relationship to the pony.

But no ... none of that.

Is it too much to hope for that Chrysalis isn't reformed?

Might be a slim hope, but there's only so many times the show can play the reformed villain card, even by the standards of a show literally titled Friendship is Magic. I don't think it would be that hard, to have a villain/villains that stay villains, to show that 'friendship wins the day' or whatnot. I mean, in Care Bares, Lord Noheart never got redeemed (not that I really remember - what I do remember is that the show seemed to make Shrieky the villain more than him because...reasons).

I do like villain Chrysalis. In the comic books she's deliciously devious and almost flirty with her machinations and plotting. In the show she's also marvelous as the 'simple villain' ... that the reasons for her eggregious actions arises from a need, a simple need, not some convoluted idea of (inevitably portrayed) simplistically rendered concepts of power(tm).

Which would be the movie's biggest failing if the story wasn't actually about Tempest coming to terms with herself and both her and Twilight actually getting a bitter taste of medicine concerning a lesson of friendship that ultimately leaves the pair of them better off.

Sometimes the best antagonists are the ones from which serve as a platform to a bigger story or moral in and of themselves.

Villains don't necessarily need to be the principle antagonising or challenging aspect of what their machinations bring about. Which is why a Canterlot Wedding is a fucking amazing pair of episodes, and why I still like Pink Horse even if she was purely originally conceived to just sell stuff to 6 year old girls. Seriously, have you seen her toy commercials? .... . Like 80s girly toy commercials cancer.

Argh ... I feel like my soul is dying ...

But yeah, Chrysalis is awesome in both the show and the comics. In the comics she's downright murderous simply because she can ...

Plus despite it's garbage relationship to Star Swirl (Again) the big reveal as to her creation is kind of wonderful. "Do you really want to know!?" A segue two pager of protracted, dark birthscene of magic, the corpse of a pony, a Discord chaos seed, and the blood of a unicorn later, and you have Chrysalis and the start of her brood ... and on right the next page, whispering into Twilight's ear with an almost flirty sinisterness; "I was just born this way...."

It's beautiful because you feel for a moment that Twilight is simply holding out hope for a chance that she won't need to hurt her ... and that act stirring Twilight's darkest impulses to pulverize her with her magic only for Chrysalis to use that momentary inconsolableanger to slam her against a walland escape.

Chrysalis in the comics is just way too much fun to ignore. And in the show she still channels some of that villainy I fell in love with. I will say the show ruined Changelings though. Seriously ruined changelings ... and if that's in store for Chrysalis, yeah I don't want to see her ever be reformed.

It's been ages since I've seen Rocko. I liked it, but TBH, I didn't really get the same themes. Might have been too young to appreciate them (I would have been 4-7 over its run), but I can't say I got the things you mentioned above. I know Rocko's a wallaby from Australia, who's sent to what I assume is America, but I don't recall that ever really coming up as a cultural/societal issue. Cows, turtles, frogs, etc. aren't quintisentially American animals after all, and even then, I don't recall Rocko being taken advantage of. Heffa was a doofus, Filbert was a nervous wreck, Mr Bighead was loud and obnoxious, Mrs Bighead had the hots for him, but Rocko seemed to make do by being perhaps the most sane character there was, at least in the main cast. I remember when Heffa moved in with Rocko and started taking advantage of his hospitality, but even then that seemed to come down to more Heffa being ignorant of the harm he was doing rather than being a jerk per se.

But like I said, been ages since I've seen the show. But I would put it above Dexter as well, so there is that.

Couple of episodes.

S2E7 I think? "Kiss Me, I'm Foreign" ...?

Due to a clerical error Rocko may possibly be deported. And maybe 'jerks' is a bit strong, because I still hanged around lot of them for the most part. I will say inconsiderate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Magic_(film)

Ooh, like that? :P

Never seen it, but going off the tagline ... yes?

Addendum_Forthcoming:

(how exactly does one simply just be good at magic? Is it like Mage: The Awakening?),

The show's never really tried to explain magic so I've never really wondered about it, but I have to guess is that a lot of it is down to raw power. IIRC, Celestia tells Twilight after she gets her cutie mark that (paraphrased) "I've never seen such raw potential/power, but it needs to be nurtured." So, it seems that magic is inherent, but you need to put in the legwork to "git gud." Twilight also makes similar concepts about Starlight's raw power as well.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

And in both the comics and the show, Sunset is at least a few good years older than Twilight. Which takes the chronology and throws it under a bus. Perhaps even more than a 1000 year old school principal given she actively lives on the otherside of the mirror. But naturally we won't address the problems of EQG ... just don't think about it.

This is coming from someone who attempted to deal with the timeline issues in my semi-novelization of Rainbow Rocks, but I don't think it's broken. Sunset seems to spend a few years in the human world, given that she seems to win at least three Fall Formals before the first film. Twilight's shown to be much younger, but that still has enough time for things to work, assuming that Celestia starts training her eventually. As for Principal Celestia...wait, you saying that she's crossed over into Equestria?

Addendum_Forthcoming:

I can only assume there's another Sunset out there thinking she's going bonkers after watching herself appear in the Daring Do movie.

Because that wouldn't be emotionally traumatizing AF to realize you have an honest to god doppelganger. As it stands, the only reason why I assume Sunset hasn't been confronted by her other half is because she's either dead, or in a mental institution trying to convince the police a doppelganger is living her life and trying to replace her. I do like in Forgotten Friendship how Sunset finally got a chance to do what she should have done in everything after the first movie ... that is apologize to Celestia.

Heh, you've given me a oneshot idea there.

That said, that's assuming that human!Sunset even watches the film, and spots pony!Sunset who's cast as an extra. Even if she noticed pony!Sunset, chances are she'd think "gee, she looks similar" and move on.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

They could have shown new people which makes more sense. I do not see Rarity as a teenager. Did her parents in Equestria just give her a business loan? Rarity makes sense in Equestria ... she doesn't make sense in a high school as a teenager. Maybe a teacher. I could totally see her being the schools Design & Tech teacher, teaching kids how to use a sewing machine, make handicrafts, draw up patternmaking templates, etc... not as a student.

Because being a professional designer actually requires study. It means understanding the machines of the trade (and there are a lot of them) ... it's about understanding colour theory. Understanding materials science of the fabrics you're working with, etc. It is not something a teenager can simply 'get' ... being a designer is like being an engineer AND artist with fabric. Knowing the tools to get stuff done, knowing the maths, knowing the materials you're working with, understanding the science behind fabrication ... and you have to package all of that into an outfit that will sell.

And frankly that goes for the rest of the Mane 6 barring Rainbow Dash ... who I see as terminally unemployable in any less magically, less socialist agrarian paradise run by the benevolent dictator, Premier Celestia of the Union of Equestrian Socialist Republics.

Think you're overthinking there. If human!Luna/Celestia/Cadence are any indication, the dopplegangers aren't 1:1. Even if they are, like the Mane 6, equines mature much faster than humans. So even if the two groups are the same age, the pony versions are potentially already considered adults.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Star Swirl is Gandalf with all the most egregious bullshit of the Istar(i) and their relationship to the Maiar and the very dawn of creation.

What's wrong with the Istari and Maia?

Hawki:

The show's never really tried to explain magic so I've never really wondered about it, but I have to guess is that a lot of it is down to raw power. IIRC, Celestia tells Twilight after she gets her cutie mark that (paraphrased) "I've never seen such raw potential/power, but it needs to be nurtured." So, it seems that magic is inherent, but you need to put in the legwork to "git gud." Twilight also makes similar concepts about Starlight's raw power as well.

Well, yeah, I guess ... how the show handles magic is kind of weird. It seems to be an extension of the faculties. If it was just an extension of the intellect Trixie must be a genius... but unicorns can actually learn new magic it seems. Whether that power is innate or not, seems undecided to me. Of course in a nice twist of fate and solidly reminding us that all ponies are 'magic', you have Maud indirectly assisting Overmare Glimmer imprison and indoctrinate a village of ponies through her knowledge of rocks that could be used to seize cutie marks... or possibly conquer Equestria...

And clearly Maud's power is one part inherent and one part scholarly focus.

Which should be more obvious given Maud can punch through solid rock and probably could commit a war crime with a boulder...

In a lot of ways I feel like in such a universe, unicorn magic isn't always that ... and even if Celestia is technically(?) a goddess, I feel like in such a world it might explain why such power is always treated in the relative.

I feel like Celestia's school is missing out on some prize students by limiting it to unicorns... I suppose you can make the argument that Earth ponies are supposed to be more resistant to the pull of evil designs. So naturally maybe that inability or resistance of their nature to do undue harm means they have a harder time seeing it in others and that the school is more about holistic aspects of academia and living than just thestudy of magic ...?

Still feel that Maud's 'magic', if indicative of the other abilities of certain Earth Ponies (like her sister who is capable of questionable degrees of reality shattering power), is kind of hard to deny.

An Orwellian Celestia today; keeps an Overmare Glimmer away...

So, you know ... Earth pony magi-science...?

Anyways, it's kind of clear that the magic ponies have isn't merely horn based.

I honestly don't get why this show is so divisive, it's just plain good .. even the not so great episodes ...

This is coming from someone who attempted to deal with the timeline issues in my semi-novelization of Rainbow Rocks, but I don't think it's broken. Sunset seems to spend a few years in the human world, given that she seems to win at least three Fall Formals before the first film. Twilight's shown to be much younger, but that still has enough time for things to work, assuming that Celestia starts training her eventually. As for Principal Celestia...wait, you saying that she's crossed over into Equestria?

Not specifically the humanoid Celestia and Luna. That would be silly, but hypothetically if they did cross over they would be alicorns and effectively be the magical superpowers regardless of whatdimension they stepped foot out of, right? If Celestia and Luna are effectively deities in Equestria, who's to say their existence isn't sufficiently alien elsewhere?

Honestly, given Luna and Celestia are proper aliicorns ... nothing is really spoken about their parents ... and given the stupid amounts of power they have.

Yes.

Prior watching Equestria Girls stuff I thought perhaps Celestia and Luna were merely celestial bodies basically finding a physical presence upon the land. Kind of like the Ursa Minor and Ursa Major finding a physical dimension of being in Equestria. Also explains their manes ...

Either that or as if interdimensional travellers themselves from someplace else. Plus, you know ... it's the only way to marry what is said in the Journal of the Two Sisters to the hellspawn of headcanon everywhere that is Flurry Heart if Celestia and Luna are just interdimensional aliens.

Plus, you know ... we know they can do that. Actually travel to other dimensions.

Flurry Heart should have been a pegasus like Cadance prior being an alicorn, but I digress ...

Heh, you've given me a oneshot idea there.

That said, that's assuming that human!Sunset even watches the film, and spots pony!Sunset who's cast as an extra. Even if she noticed pony!Sunset, chances are she'd think "gee, she looks similar" and move on.

You wouldn't be creeped out by someone who looks exactly like you, is the same age, has the same name, sounds like you, but unlike you you wouldn't be able to find out who their parents are or where they lived if you investigated further? In the age of Facebook, you're bound to run into them.

Which leads me to wonder whether Principal Celestia didn't just fluff the paperwork needed to enrol at a school.

I've never worked in the U.S. system, but in Australia it requires a certain degree of paperwork and admin to be enrolled at a school. It used to be before I worked in education that schools actully have a lot of trust and power invested in them in these regards, given governments used to accept such paperwork without batting an eye once the schools themselveshad enrolled a student.

It actually used to cause a whole lot of problems concernsing misspelt names.

It happened to a friend of mine. Went through high school enrolled with only one of her middle names. So when she went to university she showed her acadenmic results from the school ...

The university accepted, and she graduated as that new persona given the university just matched academic records with the person's name listed, and created a new record with the same (misspelt) name because she didn't inform the university of any changes to it. Even if the name on her birth certificate is different, it's actually just easier changing the birth certificate to match the name than to correct all the academic details and transcripts that a person accrues through life.

The problem lies that with such a lot ofofficial paperwork with that misspelt name, you can open a bank account, take out a lease, open a utilities account, etc ... and once you have two bills, medicare card, and other official paperwork to get up to 100 points of ID ... well, there's nothing stopping you simplybecoming that personand no one looking edgeways.

I don't know ... I feel like if Principal Celestia is anything like her Equestrian counterpart, and given their natures and thefact that Celestia effectively just gave two hourses and two libraries to Twilight Sparkle for free ... I feel like Principal Celestia might have just 'soft-adopted' Sunset Shimmer, thinking her just another street youth without a home, and put in that paperwork so that she can at least go to school inthe meantime.

Schools at least used to have that power and trust to fineagle such things. Not anymore ... given, you know, just how abused the system could be in terms of tax fraud, identity theft, and legal considerations ...

Makes sense given Shimmer, at least knowing her own Celestia, might be able to draw upon that knowledge to help her take advantage of Celestia in that other world.

Of course maybe I'm overthinking it ...

Think you're overthinking there. If human!Luna/Celestia/Cadence are any indication, the dopplegangers aren't 1:1. Even if they are, like the Mane 6, equines mature much faster than humans. So even if the two groups are the same age, the pony versions are potentially already considered adults.

Oh no ... I get that. But then again I wouldalso imagine the age differential would be a hell of a lot more apparent. Given a long-toothed horse is still about 30. And that's assuming Arab-cross Australian Stock Horse that hasn't done much work. If you took a broken wild mare or stallion from the Blue Mountains region in Australia ...tough horses that were required to do a fair bit of ranging for decent grazing in the wild... put them to a life of droving cattle across the continent of 19th and early 20th century Australia, and they'd last maybe 15 years?

Of course ... talking ponies that have achieved a luxurous life with magic and 19th century technology in Equestria, given they're intelligent and can actually vocalize their living condition and actually have the ability to organize, study the sciences, you could probably double that lifespan.

Animals that work, or animals that live in the wild, do not grow old. Losing all your teeth or getting appendicitis in Ancient Rome was practically a death sentence, for instance... animals fare no better in the wild proper.

So with that doubling of life span through proper aspects of social engineering, technological innovation, proper communication and community services might explain why the differences between the Mane 6 in both worlds is notso apparent.... but even then, struggling to understand even a Cadance much less a Celestia and Luna.

It could be that Celestia and Luna aren't even that old.

A 'thousand years' of Celestia's reign, might simply be just a handle of generationsand ponies really don't have a strong grasp of history nor really care.

Historians have a fascination with admin.The societies with the most bureaucratic systems often place phenomenal importance on chronological understandings of historical examination. Equestria doesn't feel like a very bureaucratic place ... Beyond Pinkie Pie, the Mayor, and Twilight, I don't think I've seen another pony with a filing cabinet or standardized filing system.

So maybe their understanding of history is akin to oral systems of history? Maybe a '1000 years ago' is just shorthand for 'a longtime ago.'

And maybe Celestia just ages really well...

'Course that doesn't explain Granny Smith. Or maybe she's just senile...?

What's wrong with the Istari and Maia?

Nothing ... well ... ehhh, probably going to draw a lot of heat for this but Tolkien is only really brilliant in terms of the mythology he helped to inspire.The concepts of the Fate of Arda and the role ofhumans and Eru's love are kind of weird, wonderful, but also disjointed and seemtobe forgotten by other fantasy typesin favour of the worst and more vacuous aspects of the lore he helped build.

It doesn't help when Ed Greenwood gets Tolkien better than 'professional' fantasy writer types with his depiction of Elminster and the like in Forgotten Realms, and even then isn't that great.

Which is a problem.

To put it plainly, Tolkien's high fantasy is problematically employed elsewhere where it makes no sense to.

I shouldn't be seeing a Gandalf-like in My Little Pony. Because frankly the Maiar have no place in the grander mythos of Equestria.

The closest thing to Tolkien's wizards and elves in Equestria is actually Celestia and Luna ... and I bet you're cringing at the thought of a Gandalf-like Celestia and Luna....

Well you're cringing for a good reason...

You guys are all wrong. Swat Kats beats them all.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Of course in a nice twist of fate and solidly reminding us that all ponies are 'magic', you have Maud indirectly assisting Overmare Glimmer imprison and indoctrinate a village of ponies through her knowledge of rocks that could be used to seize cutie marks... or possibly conquer Equestria...

That seems to be more based around science (applying knowledge to natural phenomena) than magic (which, in the setting, seems to be innate).

Addendum_Forthcoming:

I feel like Celestia's school is missing out on some prize students by limiting it to unicorns... I suppose you can make the argument that Earth ponies are supposed to be more resistant to the pull of evil designs.

Or it's because unicorns are the only ones that use magic?

Earth ponies in the setting remind me of the power of Heart from Captain Planet. Unicorns get to use magic, peagasai get to fly, earth ponies are...um...good farmers?

Addendum_Forthcoming:

I honestly don't get why this show is so divisive, it's just plain good .. even the not so great episodes ...

I never saw MLP as being divisive. Maybe in the sense that there's some that just don't like it, but that's the same of any IP. Within the show, the only divide I'm aware of is that some prefer slice of life episodes, while others prefer more plot driven episodes/the 'epics' (usually season openers and finales).

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Not specifically the humanoid Celestia and Luna. That would be silly, but hypothetically if they did cross over they would be alicorns and effectively be the magical superpowers regardless of whatdimension they stepped foot out of, right?

Not necessarily. As I stated, magic seems to be innate to individuals in the setting. If they did become alicorns, I can't really suppose they'd get a power boost.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

You wouldn't be creeped out by someone who looks exactly like you, is the same age, has the same name, sounds like you, but unlike you you wouldn't be able to find out who their parents are or where they lived if you investigated further? In the age of Facebook, you're bound to run into them.

I would, but again, that's assuming that human!Sunset even sees the film, and sees her doppleganger as an extra, and spends time obsessing over it.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Which leads me to wonder whether Principal Celestia didn't just fluff the paperwork needed to enrol at a school.

I've never worked in the U.S. system, but in Australia it requires a certain degree of paperwork and admin to be enrolled at a school. It used to be before I worked in education that schools actully have a lot of trust and power invested in them in these regards, given governments used to accept such paperwork without batting an eye once the schools themselveshad enrolled a student.

It's a plothole, but I can easily attribute it to suspension of disbelief.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

It could be that Celestia and Luna aren't even that old.

A 'thousand years' of Celestia's reign, might simply be just a handle of generationsand ponies really don't have a strong grasp of history nor really care.

Historians have a fascination with admin.The societies with the most bureaucratic systems often place phenomenal importance on chronological understandings of historical examination. Equestria doesn't feel like a very bureaucratic place ... Beyond Pinkie Pie, the Mayor, and Twilight, I don't think I've seen another pony with a filing cabinet or standardized filing system.

So maybe their understanding of history is akin to oral systems of history? Maybe a '1000 years ago' is just shorthand for 'a longtime ago.'

And maybe Celestia just ages really well...

I think that's stretching it. There's nothing to suggest that a 1000 years is anything other than a literal timeframe. This is a fantasy setting populated with talking equines. In fantasy, it's quite common for technology to remain stagnant over extended periods of time.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

I shouldn't be seeing a Gandalf-like in My Little Pony. Because frankly the Maiar have no place in the grander mythos of Equestria.

The closest thing to Tolkien's wizards and elves in Equestria is actually Celestia and Luna ... and I bet you're cringing at the thought of a Gandalf-like Celestia and Luna....

I'd say that Celestia already has that role, at least in regards to her relationship with Twilight, mirroring that with Gandalf and Bilbo/Frodo. But as for the mythos, I don't see how Maia-like would harm the setting per se.

Hawki:

That seems to be more based around science (applying knowledge to natural phenomena) than magic (which, in the setting, seems to be innate).

And all the clearly magical stuff she can do with rocks is also science?

Or it's because unicorns are the only ones that use magic?

Earth ponies in the setting remind me of the power of Heart from Captain Planet. Unicorns get to use magic, peagasai get to fly, earth ponies are...um...good farmers?

Well, according to Faust and the show writers all ponies are supposed to have 'magic'. Pegasi can actually walk on clouds and built stuff out of it, etc. Earth ponies are not so much good farmers, it's effectively they're the only ones that can actually reliably farm. Or in Maud's case, she can do stuff with rocks that are unexplainable. And Pinkie Pie? Well she can just do stuff that is unexplainable, period.

Clearly the metaphysics of Equestria are not the same, so arguably if universal laws are so different than what passesmuster as 'magic' may simply be a scientific pursuit (ala Maud) ... but then we're splitting hairs ...

You'd think the capacity to commit a war crime with a large stone might impress the panelists at Celestia's magic school attendance exams. Assuming the school or the panelists survived the demonstration ...

Maud is so weirdly wonderful with rocks and minerals, she essentially shows up Rarity who uses her horn to locate them in one episode. Which also seems to cement the idea Earth ponies have as if a mystical connection to the soil and stuff that comes out of it. The question is how much of that is innate and how much of that is learnt. There is always the possibility Maud has just simply studied so much she can locate them anywhere without even really looking for them. But that doesn't really explain everything else she can do with them.

Plus, you know ... Zecora. Sure, a zebra... but I don't think her potion making and alchemy is non-transferable skills and doesn't require a horn.

Not necessarily. As I stated, magic seems to be innate to individuals in the setting. If they did become alicorns, I can't really suppose they'd get a power boost.

Maybe? I mean it's true that Spike gets transformed into a dog ... but then again, it's Spike, and there's no real answer why they didn't make him a humanoid beyond it's Spike and not even the writers like Spike...

I would, but again, that's assuming that human!Sunset even sees the film, and sees her doppleganger as an extra, and spends time obsessing over it.

Fair dos, but let's say humanoid Sunset has facebook and she gets weird randos contacting her, etc. And I don't know ... maybe it's me but it'd pique my interests to investigate further.

It's a plothole, but I can easily attribute it to suspension of disbelief.

I would say as such as well, the only problem is the first movie (and the second) actually makes it a plot device why other ponies can't travel there, and actually occasions with pony Twilight running into humanoid Twilight at the end of another movie.

Suspension of disbelief maintains when you don't have the story actually bring it into question ...

I will say that it will make a fantastic moral dilemma if they do decide to port Sunset to FiM at some point. As in Sunset has a run in with someone and the moral question whether it's right to actually be still living there given all the problems she might cause for an entirely innocent humanoid Sunset, and whether it isn't about time she went back home and started building a life there ...

Stuff like that.

I think that's stretching it. There's nothing to suggest that a 1000 years is anything other than a literal timeframe. This is a fantasy setting populated with talking equines. In fantasy, it's quite common for technology to remain stagnant over extended periods of time.

I never really said it was something I believed. Just that it would be a way of explaining it. Just not very good one.

It would also explain a whole lot of other stuff ... like the relative paucity of major events until FiM starts.

I'd say that Celestia already has that role, at least in regards to her relationship with Twilight, mirroring that with Gandalf and Bilbo/Frodo. But as for the mythos, I don't see how Maia-like would harm the setting per se.

Predominantly because there is no real established religion or religiosity. Celestia is the closest thingto a deity the talking ponies have, and even then her power is relative. Arda has a reason for Eru. As in an illusive power that loves humans (and hobbits), but apparently not so much Dwarves and Elves.

And Eru's 'love' for humans is critical to the plot. It explains why the elves are retreating. It explains why humans are blessed by Eru, and why mortality is actually a good thing. How humans are not bound by the fate of Arda unlike the Elves, but rather can exist above fate ... that their calling itself is to the realm, and paradise, or Eru past the Halls of the afterlife ... It explains why Gandalf actually survives as Maia ... Eru is intrinsic to everything that happens in Arda, and everything that will happen after LotR.

The Maiar have a reason (ish) as per that connection to Eru... They are connected to the dawn of creation. Celestia doesn't have that same relationship to Equestria. Sure she can raise the Sun and the Moon ... but unicorns were doing that before her ... it just took all of their effort and magic to do it each day.

The unicorn tribes predate Celestia and Luna. In a lot of ways there must have been some divine agent that allowed them this power so that unicorns could effectively do it in turn. I don't think it helps the show to paint Luna and Celestia as if not ponies (or at least horses given the actual hands height to the wither) ...

Clearly the ponies have ditched whatever divine or super magical being thatactually allowedthis world to foster them, r possibly brought them there as part of some nigh mystical interdimensional travel .... Celestia and Luna were just simply more powerful than the lot of them. So much so they defeated Discord who afflicted much of Equestria. But clearly the ponies don't have a religion that predates Celestia and Luna, and arguably they don't see Celestia and Luna as if goddesses ... merely incredibly powerful sovereigns ... ones that helped them relieve the stress of raising the Sun and the Moon ... and the pair also helping to liberate them from tyrants that otherwise would have made their lives more miserable.

Personally I like the angle that Celestia and Luna are merely physical manifestations of the celestial objects and the greater concepts surrounding them of what they have individual control of. It's better if they remain 'Pony+' as opposed to elevating them as if to some nigh mystical benchmark of existence.

Otherwise, you know ... Worf Effect ... Champions of Equestria is more their speed, and frankly that bears out better given their history.

There is such things as age spells in the universe, and it's hinted that it taps into alicorn magic (given it's called the Alicorn Amulet) ... if Trixie's antics have anything to say about it, that is. So there's one obvious in universe answer. They're immortal because magic they can uniquely tap into. And this is the key problem of giving Star Swirl (who is a powerful unicorn, but a unicorn nonetheless) so much canon activity ... also the problem of not actually giving him an expiration date. It takes away from the character and reduces the stakes for regular ponies.

There's probably a good reason why everyone won't mind having an immortal Celestia, and to a lesser extent an immortal Luna. They have core critical functions for which without them, the world would nosedive pretty bloody fast.

One of the reasons non-fans find MLP off-putting is probably its tendency to take over its immediate environment, whether that environment is a whole board or just a thread that was meant to be about a different topic.

Like the Borg.

Silvanus:
One of the reasons non-fans find MLP off-putting is probably its tendency to take over its immediate environment, whether that environment is a whole board or just a thread that was meant to be about a different topic.

Like the Borg.

Assimilation is magic?

<.< >.> Yeah, I'll just show myself out now.

davidmc1158:

Assimilation is magic?

<.< >.> Yeah, I'll just show myself out now.

I'd have gone for My Little Pony: Friendship is Mandatory.

Silvanus:

davidmc1158:

Assimilation is magic?

<.< >.> Yeah, I'll just show myself out now.

I'd have gone for My Little Pony: Friendship is Mandatory.

My Little Borg: Resisting Friendship is Futile

Silvanus:
One of the reasons non-fans find MLP off-putting is probably its tendency to take over its immediate environment, whether that environment is a whole board or just a thread that was meant to be about a different topic.

Like the Borg.

That and it's fucking called My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

Silvanus:
One of the reasons non-fans find MLP off-putting is probably its tendency to take over its immediate environment, whether that environment is a whole board or just a thread that was meant to be about a different topic.

Like the Borg.

Oh whine ... you're better than that Silvanus. Apparently whining about a person talking about a show they think is better than Dexter's Laboratory is a better use of your time than engaging with the person concerning the other cartoons they brought up as being better than Dexter's Lab.

Hypocritical much?

I brought up three other cartoons I think were better than Dexter's Lab (The Maxx, Rocko's ML, Adventure Time, etc). I'd just as eagerly talk about why those are so much more amazing than Dexter's if given half the chance. Maybe The Maxx doesn't count as a 'kids' cartoon, but I watched and read it as a kid and some of the topics are pretty heavy, it's not a significant departure from 'young adult'.

If you want I'll gush to you about those in turn, or was that the extent of your commentary?

Addendum_Forthcoming:

And all the clearly magical stuff she can do with rocks is also science?

I can't remember every single thing Maud does with rocks, but most of it strikes me as being mundane, with any magic being attritutable to the rocks themselves.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

You'd think the capacity to commit a war crime with a large stone might impress the panelists at Celestia's magic school attendance exams. Assuming the school or the panelists survived the demonstration ...

Okay, but is that magic, or a cartoon simply being a cartoon and playing fast and loose with the laws of physics?

I dunno, maybe Pinkie's ability to bend reality runs in the family?

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Maud is so weirdly wonderful with rocks and minerals, she essentially shows up Rarity who uses her horn to locate them in one episode. Which also seems to cement the idea Earth ponies have as if a mystical connection to the soil and stuff that comes out of it. The question is how much of that is innate and how much of that is learnt. There is always the possibility Maud has just simply studied so much she can locate them anywhere without even really looking for them. But that doesn't really explain everything else she can do with them.

Well, if we're calling it magic, then it would be innate, because we've never seen an earth pony use any 'active magic' in the way a unicorn might.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Maybe? I mean it's true that Spike gets transformed into a dog ... but then again, it's Spike, and there's no real answer why they didn't make him a humanoid beyond it's Spike and not even the writers like Spike...

While Spike's a punching bag, it's reasonably consistent. Every pony has turned into a human in that world. So if dragons = dogs in the shift...well, that doesn't break anything. Though that does raise the question of what would happen to Winona if she crossed over.

Arda has a reason for Eru. As in an illusive power that loves humans (and hobbits), but apparently not so much Dwarves and Elves.

Um, what? When does Eru not love the elves? He grants them immortality, impressive physiology, great wisdom, etc. Humans have "the Gift of Men," but it always struck me as Arda loving them equally, but giving them different gifts. Yes, mankind gets to rule over Middle-earth and not be tied to Arda, but the elves still get to live happily in Valinor. Ultimately, seems there's equal opportunity for both of them.

As for dwarves, maybe, but even then Eru allows them to live, even knowing that strife will occur between them and the elves in the future. They're the red-headed stepchild of Eru's children, but he's not exactly callous towards them given how he saw that Aule had made sapient beings.

Hawki:

I can't remember every single thing Maud does with rocks, but most of it strikes me as being mundane, with any magic being attritutable to the rocks themselves.

Well yeah, but then again what most unicorns can do with their horn is also fairly derivative of what skills they have. The basic spells they seem to have is levitation, but beyond that it's often geared merely to what they themselves would be good at regardless of the horn. Thugh I suppose you couldargue just how good Rarity would be with needlework and no opposable thumbs.

Okay, but is that magic, or a cartoon simply being a cartoon and playing fast and loose with the laws of physics?

I dunno, maybe Pinkie's ability to bend reality runs in the family?

Yeah ... I think it also ties into the idea that ponies have 'passive' magic, even if not a unicorn. Just in the Pie family that 'passive' seems to have transformed into random. Fluttershy talking to animals is another example of passive non-unicorn magic and seemingly being able to co-ordinate them and make them do stuff like tweet in harmony.

Well, if we're calling it magic, then it would be innate, because we've never seen an earth pony use any 'active magic' in the way a unicorn might.

Well yeah, that's the big thing that I think Faust originally wanted to make clear.

While Spike's a punching bag, it's reasonably consistent. Every pony has turned into a human in that world. So if dragons = dogs in the shift...well, that doesn't break anything. Though that does raise the question of what would happen to Winona if she crossed over.

I'd say Winona would still be a dog. I'm thinking the initial explanation is that; "Well dragons don't exist here..." Which brings up some dark questions about whether ponies do, but whatever.

This is why I'm wondering what would happen if Principal Celestia stepped thrugh the portal. Would she be an alicorn with shitloads of magic? If you excise the hellspawn that is Flurry Heart out of the equation, arguably she'd be an alicorn? After all, being humanoid it doesn't seem to effect Sunset in any longterm fashion. Neither does it seem to effect Starlight or Twilight.

And would humanoid Twilight bean alicorn, or a unicorn?

As I was saying ... they should have just created new characters.

Um, what? When does Eru not love the elves? He grants them immortality, impressive physiology, great wisdom, etc. Humans have "the Gift of Men," but it always struck me as Arda loving them equally, but giving them different gifts. Yes, mankind gets to rule over Middle-earth and not be tied to Arda, but the elves still get to live happily in Valinor. Ultimately, seems there's equal opportunity for both of them.

Well I get your opinion ... because that was the reason why Sauron managed to trick the humans into thinking their mortality was a curse. Trying to get the humans all hot and bothered about the subject.

Humans actually die die, not get reborn, not get to be immortal, etc. But there in lies the rub, Eru loves humans so much he effectively gave them free will and the capacity to be beyond the fate of Arda. Human mortality is actually pretty wonderful in LotR ... given it actually allows you to go to a highly stylized Christian-esque Heaven.

The reason Sauron gave the greatest number of rings to Man, is precisely because humans are so easily able to alter their relationship to Arda.

The elves aren't retreating because they want to. They're retreating because they have to. Humans (and hobbits) however ... they can keep up the fight. They can maintain, as if in perpetuity, their defence of Middle-earth. The "Age of Man" is going to be a long and dominating one ...

Keep in mind all that elven grace stuff though ... humans are monumentally bad ass in the lore. Aragorn is like 7 foot tall or something. Being 7 foot is still impressive. Just not inconceivably tall ... but yeah, humans are not wanting in Lord of the Rings. Particularly some of their champions. Particularly certain humans of certain clans.

I think there's an argument in that humans can give elves a run for their money if they were so inclined. In Tolkien's world height = power, apparently. Because only certain elves hedescribes as 'tall' ... but I'm not sure if that extends to your regular run of the mill elf. I can't remember what they say for the rest of the elves like people like Legolas, but at the same time the lore makes mentions to not only how tall Aragorn is but also how tall his familial line is.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

I'd say Winona would still be a dog. I'm thinking the initial explanation is that; "Well dragons don't exist here..." Which brings up some dark questions about whether ponies do, but whatever.

I'd say it's more dominant species = dominant species. Ponies aren't the only sapient species in their world, but they do seem to be the dominant one. If dragons = dogs...I can roll with it.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

This is why I'm wondering what would happen if Principal Celestia stepped thrugh the portal. Would she be an alicorn with shitloads of magic? If you excise the hellspawn that is Flurry Heart out of the equation, arguably she'd be an alicorn? After all, being humanoid it doesn't seem to effect Sunset in any longterm fashion. Neither does it seem to effect Starlight or Twilight.

Alicorn? Maybe. But per the idea of innate magic, I don't see her having any powers.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

As I was saying ... they should have just created new characters.

To whose end? Certainly it worked from a marketing perspective.

Or, to put it another way, if EQG was completely separate from FiM, would we even be discussing it right now?

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Humans actually die die, not get reborn, not get to be immortal, etc. But there in lies the rub, Eru loves humans so much he effectively gave them free will and the capacity to be beyond the fate of Arda. Human mortality is actually pretty wonderful in LotR ... given it actually allows you to go to a highly stylized Christian-esque Heaven.

The reason Sauron gave the greatest number of rings to Man, is precisely because humans are so easily able to alter their relationship to Arda.

Yes, I'm not disputing any of that, but...

Addendum_Forthcoming:

The elves aren't retreating because they want to. They're retreating because they have to. Humans (and hobbits) however ... they can keep up the fight. They can maintain, as if in perpetuity, their defence of Middle-earth. The "Age of Man" is going to be a long and dominating one ...

This idea I'm not so sold on. For starters, although hobbits are closely related to humans in the setting, it's established that by our time (under the premise that Middle-earth is simply ours in the past), they've gone into hiding by the "Seventh Age." So, no, they don't seem to get any special treatment.

As for the elves, I wouldn't say it's really a case of humans pushing them out. The sense I got was that the elves were leaving Middle-earth simply because of 'age,' the sense that the world as they knew it could no longer offer anything for them. A sort of wasting away. I think it's mentioned that mankind has the ability to shape Arda (alter the world to their own ends), so there is perhaps the sense of the elves being pushed out, but overall, I'd say it's more due to the elves' psyche (burden of immortality) rather than a human vs. neanderthal situation.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Keep in mind all that elven grace stuff though ... humans are monumentally bad ass in the lore. Aragorn is like 7 foot tall or something. Being 7 foot is still impressive. Just not inconceivably tall ... but yeah, humans are not wanting in Lord of the Rings. Particularly some of their champions. Particularly certain humans of certain clans.

I think there's an argument in that humans can give elves a run for their money if they were so inclined.

Humans are badass?

Okay, maybe the Numenoreans, but in a setting where "lesser men" are indeed lesser biologically (e.g. shorter lifespans), I don't think humans are depicted as being "bad ass" in the lore. Even inference aside, in the Silmarillion, when humans 'awake' in the First Age of the Sun, it's laid outright that the elves name them "the sickly" due to their shorter lifespans and vulnerability, and about the only thing humans had going for them compared to elves (and dwarves) was how fast they reproduced. I.e. the same advantage orcs have over elves in that they can pop out baby orcs much faster. Likewise, elves are depicted as being pretty much ubers - they accomplish more, have better forgers, create more impressive empires, they don't fall under Sauron's sway in the same manner that so many humans do (e.g. Easterlings), etc. It's kind of a cliche in fantasy, that elves are superior to humans, but it's a cliche that does come from LotR in the end.

Humans could certainly give elves a run for their money in the Third Age, but, well, let's just say there's a reason that the Fourth Age marks the start of their dominion, not a continuation of it.

Hawki:

I'd say it's more dominant species = dominant species. Ponies aren't the only sapient species in their world, but they do seem to be the dominant one. If dragons = dogs...I can roll with it.

Well ... yeah, but dragons are no pushovers in Equestria(?) either. They have a kingdom. They're sapient. They have a social structure. They apparently routinely loot other kingdoms if their treasure hoards of worked goods is anything to go by...

I'd say if the writers liked Spike he'd still be worthy of being a humanoid, surely? Brings into question what would happen ifyou tossed Gilda through a portal. Not only that, the Sirens? Somewhat humanoid? I ... ehhh .... question is out on them, and honestly the sirens present their own chronological mindfuckery.

Speaking of another reason why it's bad to have so much lore stuff attached to one pony in the distant past ...

Alicorn? Maybe. But per the idea of innate magic, I don't see her having any powers.

Maybe not the same degree of magical power, but would that really dispense withthe idea that magic can't be learnt? Celestia and Luna had Star Swirl, and Twilight had Celestia's school, and Starlight is apparently God who doesn't need any of that stuff.

To whose end? Certainly it worked from a marketing perspective.

Or, to put it another way, if EQG was completely separate from FiM, would we even be discussing it right now?

Given it can came about from the same universe and have shared characters. After all, we wouldn't even have it at all if not for Twilight and Sunset. And I think the strength of Sunset's character is pretty good bridging material on its own. When I say 'come up with new characters', that doesn't mean try to excise it from the universe utterly.

And yeah, I agree ... certainly worked from a marketing standpoint.

Yes, I'm not disputing any of that, but...

This idea I'm not so sold on. For starters, although hobbits are closely related to humans in the setting, it's established that by our time (under the premise that Middle-earth is simply ours in the past), they've gone into hiding by the "Seventh Age." So, no, they don't seem to get any special treatment.

As for the elves, I wouldn't say it's really a case of humans pushing them out. The sense I got was that the elves were leaving Middle-earth simply because of 'age,' the sense that the world as they knew it could no longer offer anything for them. A sort of wasting away. I think it's mentioned that mankind has the ability to shape Arda (alter the world to their own ends), so there is perhaps the sense of the elves being pushed out, but overall, I'd say it's more due to the elves' psyche (burden of immortality) rather than a human vs. neanderthal situation.

Oh no, the humans aren't pushing them out. It is quite simply their fate to leave Middle-earth. That which is sustaining them there is arguably 'dying'. It's also why Legolas inevitably leaves as well. The Age of Men is brought about purely because the elves cannot persist on Middle-earth.

You're right though, to humans they're given the only tools to shape Arda. And Eru specifically designed them as such that they are not connected to the hip the consequences they wreak on Arda. Humans die, go the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, and then fade away to (arguably) rejoin with the seat of souls itself in the presence of Eru Illuvator. Humans are not bound to Arda. Humans are effectively the tools that Eru uses that will change Arda through the command of their own fates.

The problem humans have is they have to take this on faith. The big problem with humans on Arda is that so much of their existence, that is doomed to die, must be taken on faith. But it is through that faith that they can achieve and master their own fates in a way elves could only dream of.

This is why menfolk (and hobbits) have 'the courage of men'. Why it's so important 'the courage of men shall not fail'. The idea of staring into the unknown, no strings of fate, no second chances, no real guiding compass, but they must do so nonetheless and that courage cannot falter lest the role Eru has planned for them shall be twisted and made wrong.

The only consolation they have is that there is somewhat proof that humans (and hobbits) have souls and go to the Halls of Mandos. After that? Well who knows? But what is certain they are free to decide how their lives will be lived in a way that is largely unknowable to elves.

That the only way to know that is to become mortal yourself. Which is kind of a big, scary deal ... but it does allow one to act as if with finality. Even the Valar do not know what happens to the souls of Men (and presumably hobbits).

That being said, what we do know is that only humans get to be judged by Eru. Elves? Well they get what's coming via the Valar. Which suggests only humans have the moral complexity of agency enough that it requires a God to deem them worthy. And with that moral complexity that isabove the understanding of lesser agents, the greater will to effect it.

Humans are badass?

Okay, maybe the Numenoreans, but in a setting where "lesser men" are indeed lesser biologically (e.g. shorter lifespans), I don't think humans are depicted as being "bad ass" in the lore. Even inference aside, in the Silmarillion, when humans 'awake' in the First Age of the Sun, it's laid outright that the elves name them "the sickly" due to their shorter lifespans and vulnerability, and about the only thing humans had going for them compared to elves (and dwarves) was how fast they reproduced. I.e. the same advantage orcs have over elves in that they can pop out baby orcs much faster. Likewise, elves are depicted as being pretty much ubers - they accomplish more, have better forgers, create more impressive empires, they don't fall under Sauron's sway in the same manner that so many humans do (e.g. Easterlings), etc. It's kind of a cliche in fantasy, that elves are superior to humans, but it's a cliche that does come from LotR in the end.

Humans could certainly give elves a run for their money in the Third Age, but, well, let's just say there's a reason that the Fourth Age marks the start of their dominion, not a continuation of it.

To be fair, a lot of the problems with Man is the lies and deceptions of the evils that tried to use them as well. The folly of being mortal is the assumption that one is cursed when in comparison to groups like the elves. Simply put menfolk are the cause of their own grief, and the menfolk probably set themselves and their power back centuries through the deceptions of people like Sauron.

Even by the Third Age and centuries towards its end, that there are human power centers that are rivalling the Elves. Gondor has pratically usurped being the police officers of the West.

And sure, the elven smithies are better, and they have a better grasp of empire building ... but unlike the elven kingdoms, these aren't fated to die. To humans largely alone, we owe to human misery. To elves, it's another story.

And honestly if you're going to be overseeing the end of your race's presences upon Middle-earth, would you rather you were inthe driving seat at least? Or because you simply can't remain there regardless of what you could do or what you've done? At the end of LotR humans (and hobbits) earned their right to maintain and be free in the West. And they did so by their own hands. Regardless of what the elves do, they will live outtheir days knowing humans have inherited Middle-earth.

As they say; "Results matter."

Can I be honest and tell you this is just your nostalgia talking?

dscross:
Can I be honest and tell you this is just your nostalgia talking?

These glasses have been somewhat broken by some episodes I watched like Dimwit Dexter and Blackfoot.

Souplex:

PapaGreg096:
I can think of at least 20 shows that shit on Dexter(and I like Dexter)
Spectacular Spiderman
Avatar The last Airbender
Amazing world of gumball
Regular Show
We Bare bears
Dan vs
Invader Zim
Batman Brave and the bold
Ed edd Eddy
Gravity Falls
Adventure Time
OK KO
Samurai Jack
Star vs
Motorcity
Megas XLR
Kim Possible
Over the garden wall
Kaijudo
Gi Renegades
Avengers Earth Mightest Heroes
Symbionic Titan
Courage the cowardly dog
Johnny Bravo season 2-3
Teen Titans
Young Justice
All of Bruce Timm's shows

Your list doesn't contain Steven Universe, and therefore I must revoke your opinion license.
*revokes*
You can have this back when you have better opinions.

Does Steven Universe improve after the first few episodes? I found them generic, unfunny and uninteresting. Seriously, a kid with superpowers with friends who have superpowers trying to stop evil things happening... boring!

Blood Brain Barrier:
Seriously, a kid with superpowers with friends who have superpowers trying to stop evil things happening... boring!

Isn't that a description of every team-based superhero show ever made?

Hawki:

Blood Brain Barrier:
Seriously, a kid with superpowers with friends who have superpowers trying to stop evil things happening... boring!

Isn't that a description of every team-based superhero show ever made?

Could be. I don't think I actually like any team-based superhero shows. I guess I wanted to know if Steven Universe was any more than that.

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