Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

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Anyone who thinks that these movies have some kind of political agenda and that's why they suck or that's why they're good must live a very sad fuckin' existence.

This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

Johnny Novgorod:
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

The entire resistance depends on that information staying secret, so I'm guessing that it was a military secret on a need-to-know basis only. You can't risk something that important leaking to the enemy.

Adam Jensen:
Anyone who thinks that these movies have some kind of political agenda and that's why they suck or that's why they're good must live a very sad fuckin' existence.

No, you see, having good morals means you're supporting white genocide now.

Johnny Novgorod:

Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

There is no intelligent reason for Holdo not to tell anyone of the plan, and Poe's arc falls flat on it's face because it relies entirely upon Holdo refusing to tell anyone what the plan is, to the extent of not telling anyone there even IS A PLAN AT ALL. Even if Holdo suspects a spy or other leak in place (of which there is no indication of whatsoever in the movie) she has no good reason whatsoever not to tell everyone there is a plan in place to get out of their situation, she didn't have to go into even the vaguest detail at all, just say that there was A PLAN TO GET THEM ALL OUT ALIVE. I'm sorry that I keep capping this but I have to emphasize this because almost every time I ever tell anybody this they seem to utterly miss the point, which is that there's no reason for Holdo not to tell everybody that there's a plan in place, any plan, make up some B.S. plausible sounding plan to tell everybody, don't say what it is, just tell people there's a plan in existence period.

As it is, Holdo might as well have told everyone "We are all going to die and there's no way out for any of us, so everybody might as well put a blaster pistol to your heads and pull the trigger because none of us are going to get out of this alive". Holdo did everything possible to fail as a leader and give this exact impression, she was pretty much Poe or somebody to do what he did and later for the mutiny. All Holdo had to do was say something akin to "I know things look hopeless, but trust me, there is a plan in place to survive this on a Need To Know basis. As long as everyone does their part we WILL get out of this alive". It would have made so much more sense that way and what's worse, everything could have gone the exact same way that it did and in fact Poe's arc could have been the same but presented much much better by simply having Poe not believe her and/or think he knew better and thus do what he did anyway. Poe actually shows really good leadership ability by trying to find another way, rather than what the movie wants us to think which is that he's just being a hotshot arrogant flyboy rather than a leader and needs to be taken down a few pegs. The way things went Poe's actions were completely justified, he just did what anyone with more than two brain cells would have done in the same situation. Besides, honestly Poe's plan was sound given the information he had, it was just the execution that screwed it all up which is something Poe himself couldn't possibly have predicted. Poe's actions screwing up Holdo's plan were only the natural result of never being told anything and thus he couldn't have possibly known any better. It turns out that people tend to do things that might screw up your plan if you never tell them what it is, especially in an extremely desperate situation.

Sorry about the rant, but Holdo's leadership and in particular Poe's arc as a result are the only issue I have with The Last Jedi and it pisses me off.

Adam Jensen:

Johnny Novgorod:
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

The entire resistance depends on that information staying secret, so I'm guessing that it was a military secret on a need-to-know basis only. You can't risk something that important leaking to the enemy.

Exactly. The Resistance is a military organisation. Subordinates are under no obligation whatsoever to know a plan. It's like Tom Hanks busting into Churchill's office and demanding to know the details of Operation Overlord.

Johnny Novgorod:
This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

Because he's just been demoted for (A) ignoring orders and (B) getting a lot of people killed in a pointless victory that arguably means nothing in the long term.

Gee, I wonder why someone doesn't trust captain reckless moron who, the second he figures out the plan, goes and blabs it in earshot of the guy who sells the information directly to the first order.

Vrex360:
I welcome other opinions too but it might be nice to hear counter arguments beyond the screeching 'FEMINAZI SJWS TURNED MY STAR WARS INTO BETA MALE SOY AND IT CUCKED MY CHILDHOOD WITH AN INTERRACIAL GAY TRANSEXUAL PENIS' chorus that is my fucking youtube suggested feed any time this movie comes up.

Are you serious?

I mean, sincerely, are you serious?

The film's been out for over half a year and is perhaps the most divisive, debated and widely both criticized and praised film of the decade, with thousands of hours of content made about it. Yet somehow you've missed every counterargument about the tonal imbalance, the poor script, the character assassination of one of cinema's most beloved heroes, the sacrificing of common sense for spectacle, essentially breaking the universe's already flimsy logic and rules in half with concepts like lightspeed kamikaze, bullshit "subverting of expectations", "tell, don't show" filmmaking and the list goes on. You've missed all of that, and seen nothing but the tired old "sjw beta cucks bwaa bwaa" horseshit?

PsychedelicDiamond:

No, you see, having good morals means you're supporting white genocide now.

I do have to wonder if a certain crowd would be calling Don McLean an 'SJW' if they released the American Pie album in today's world.

I have a feeling Everybody Loves Me, Baby is pretty good description of current U.S. foreign policy of the 21st century.

Eacaraxe:

Vrex360:
I honestly do encourage people to watch this one. I welcome other opinions too but it might be nice to hear counter arguments beyond the screeching 'FEMINAZI SJWS TURNED MY STAR WARS INTO BETA MALE SOY AND IT CUCKED MY CHILDHOOD WITH AN INTERRACIAL GAY TRANSEXUAL PENIS' chorus that is my fucking youtube suggested feed any time this movie comes up.

Okay, fine. How about this one.

Johnson's writing of both Leia and Holdo betray a vastly deeper-seeded misogyny than even is accused of those who criticize the film.

Did he spam the actresses with graphic rape and death threats and highly gendered (and racist) insults to the point where many of them had to straight up delete their social media? If the answer is, no, then no it's not.

Leia is an accomplished, galactically-famous, stateswoman, diplomat, and strategist with decades of experience, and Holdo as we're straight-up told in the movie, even though we've never seen her to this point, is a decorated and celebrated veteran military commander and strategist.

Yeah, exactly. Why should we need to question that.

So naturally, Leia slaps Poe right in plain view of the entire command deck, chewing him out for taking out the dreadnought. Sure, Leia is well within her rights and (at that point) completely vindicated in tearing his ass from one bulkhead to another and demoting him, but you do it in private and you do not assault subordinates. You know, because it's damaging to morale and fosters distrust in the lower ranks.

Dude Poe repeatedly ignored and openly defied her direct orders not to engage with the Dreadnaught and in the process of his bombing run multiple bombers and many lives were lost. Leia was entirely within her rights to call him out for that and frankly he should be grateful all he got was a slap (that is now 'assault' apparently), most people would have him detained or even executed for that.
As far as 'morale' goes I'd argue that in a crisis situation like what they found themselves in Leia is kind of obligated to show strength and authority and make an example of people who break ranks because it conveys strong leadership. A leader who doesn't punish people who directly disobey her orders is conveying to her underlings that disobeying her orders is no big deal, which means her authority could get undermined really quickly.

And, seconds later, Poe is completely vindicated when the whole damn First Order fleet jumps out of hyperspace hot on their trail, and had that dreadnought still been around they wouldn't have stood a chance.

That's a fluke. It in no way validates that Poe had the right idea about the Dreadnaught in the sense of wasting resources to destroy it rather than just escaping was the right call, it just proves his 'hunch' was correct and hunches are no indication
of tactical ability. No one knew the First Order was going to pursue them through hyperspace and while yes Poe did ultimately make the right call as it turns out if the First Order had not been able to pursue them then all those pilots would have ended up dying for absolutely nothing. Coincidence =/= tactical foresight.

This is a fact that should not have been lost on Holdo, who is as described above, which should have proven the quality of Poe's gut instinct along with his past service record with the Resistance.

No because again 'gut instinct' is a terrible approach to strategy and a one time lucky fluke doesn't in any way suggest that Poe, a squadron leader, has major tactical insight. You're basically asking her to sacrifice pragmatism for wild gambles.

I gotta say it's not great that you think a woman's near decade long highly decorated career of strategic victories should lose out and take secondary priority to a man's 'gut instinct'.

So naturally, Holdo proceeds to give Poe the stink-eye when he tries to give her a basic situation report -- something she would have actually needed, given her flag was on the Ninka and transferred to the Raddus when Leia was incapacitated -- and at least dresses him down in (semi)-private, and sidelines him despite still being the senior flight officer who had a lot of trust and respect among the Raddus' crew.

Because she's doing her job? I love how you assume the only way she could possibly be informed of the situation is if a man told her about it. And she sidelines him because she doesn't fucking need him to do anything but sit down and shut up.

Then, Holdo tells no one her plan to cruise to Crait and sacrifice the Raddus to screen for the evacuation craft.

No one except the people who were on a need to know basis, Poe was not 'need to know'.

This is despite her knowing full well the First Order was tracking the vessels directly, and that there was no tracking device aboard the vessels nor any security leaks. Not even her own senior staff, apparently.

Congrats you found a minor plot hole, say did you watch the video I linked? Plot holes like that and plans full of contrivance where drama comes in place of logic are a dime a dozen in Star Wars. See Luke's idiotic plan of infiltrating Jabba's palace.

Literally all that had to happen was for Holdo to take Poe aside and basically say "you're a hot headed flyboy and I don't like your type. But, you have this crew's trust and respect, they need your leadership, and I need you on my side to help keep their morale up. Our only play is to cruise in normal space to Crait, abandon ship, and shelter in place. I'm keeping this information limited to senior staff because it will devastate morale, but this keeps us alive. People are counting on us, and it's time for you to step up and be a leader outside the cockpit. Get to work."

Or Poe could just suck it up and sit down?
I also love how despite being the leader Holdo is expected to suck up to Poe.

Look I feel you don't understand something important about Poe, you keep acting like Poe is this rational clear headed pragmatic leader type but he's really not or rather he was not at that point in the movie. As I said before he started this movie defying orders, getting people killed and delaying the Resistance's efforts to escape. Yes he did bring down a Dreadnaught but still he was headstrong, stubborn and eager to get into the fray. He has a proven history of wearing his heart on his sleeve and going all in and not really considering the consequences of his actions. He is still a very noble character who does a lot of good but at his core, at least at the start of the story, he is a 'hero' which is very different from a 'leader' and this whole arc is about how he learns to become a leader.
Had Holdo told Poe the plan there was still a chance that he'd reject it or try to find another way because Crait is a risky venture and it could have gone really badly and there's every chance he would have told other people and gone over Holdo's head to try and plan some counter attack 'just in case the First Order find us' which has the effect of letting slip that the plan is 'abandon ship' which would as you mentioned before 'be bad for morale'. Again he hasn't proven himself good at keeping his emotions in check and making the harder decisions.

That's why Holdo doesn't drop everything to make sure Poe is accomodated. She expected him to do his duty and follow his orders and he couldn't even manage to do that. But after seeing what Holdo was always planning and after her sacrifice Poe comes out of the experience more complete. Yes it's a little contrived but it is narrative serving plot, Poe wasn't always leadership material but he's clearly being set up as going from pilot to like general so it is fitting that the story shows his progression no?

They could even have done it off-screen, showed Poe not being a jackass, saved the film a good 45 minutes of filler content and give Finn and Rose something to do meaningful to the plot, and then once they abandoned the Raddus showed Holdo's and Poe's conversation as a flashback to maintain the "subversion!".

That we can agree on, there is so much fat that needed trimming from that movie. But I still maintain that what the movie was going for worked better, Poe was one way, after his experience, he became another way.

Rose gets a pass as far as I'm concerned. She's grieving her sister's loss, and grief makes people do stupid shit. I would personally have preferred a story arc for her that involves her and Finn staying on board the Raddus doing techy stuff like what their characters are, and her working through her grief and even confronting Poe about how his "misguided" attack on the dreadnought got her sister killed, which would have been a character-defining moment for all three characters.

Yeah I don't really dispute that either.

Now look, I'm not advocating turning Star Wars into a full-on military sci-fi. But the bottom line is the franchise deals with military and paramilitary powers, so maybe take that into consideration when writing militaristic characters. There was no logical reason for Leia or Holdo to do any of the shit they did early on, that set later events in motion. Period.

Star Wars also has space magic, laser swords, consensual incest kissing and little green muppet men who are the beacons of all wisdom in the universe. It has way more in common with fantasy and fairy tales than actual military sci fi and again contrived plans by the heroes for the sake of increasing drama are not new.

I know the hot shit is to accuse people of calling out these characters misogynist.

Okay I want you to visualize something for me.

Imagine a yin and yang circle, on one side there are the hardcore fans, lore aficionados, 'anti-sjw's', critics and people who just did not like the movie. On the other side there are the other hardcore fans, the 'alt rights', the incels, the bigots, the people who harassed Rose's actress with racial slurs on instagram, the guys who re-edited the movie to get rid of all the women, the gate keepers, the trolls and the bigots.
Got your two sides?

Now imagine it spinning at super fast speed, like a top, spinning so fast in fact that the colors almost blend together until you can't even tell one from the other anymore. A bit like this:


(Anyone with epilepsy should probably not watch)

And that weird disorienting mass of grey? That's the discourse around the 'anti TLJ bandwagon'. For every legitimate critique made in good faith there seem to be at least ten 'wimmin shuldnt be in ma star wars' or 'this is why white genocide is real' type contributions. When a huge mass of people are all screaming over the top of each other it is hard to spot legit critics from bad faith acting bigots and trolls, certainly not helped when every single 'TLJ is a bad movie' youtube video only helps rile up the base of bigots and embolden them and in turn far right pundits knowing they can mine that anger for easy outraged clicks which they can use to subtly alter the conversation and smuggle their hate filled talking points into the discourse (and when freaking Info Wars even jumped in on the cashcow) all this leads to is an anger filled quagmire that is not actually all that easy to decipher who is being critical in good faith and who's a troll, or how to call out the trolls without insulting the critics and worst of all how to respond to the critics withoutemboldening the trolls.
And again a lot of the Star Wars fans are really fucking toxic, I'm sorry not all etc but the kerfuffle around this one movie has kind of pulled the curtain away and the world is seeing how meanspirited and gate keepy and douchey Star Wars can actually be.
And while I don't think every critique of The Last Jedi is bad faith I do feel I have to point out people didn't mind all the illogical decisions made by Luke and pals during the Original Trilogy but when a woman with purple hair did it, suddenly they were outraged at story structure. You surely have to concede there ARE bigots among that discourse, surely.

But I'm cantankerous ass and dead-set on going against the grain.

Yep just you and the other 100,0000,000000,0000000,00000000 rebellious free thinkers going against the grain who've effectively ruined my youtube feed. Come on dude at this point liking the movie is 'going against the grain'.

The question I want answered, is why are the women characters the exclusive designated idiot ball carriers throughout the entire movie?

... Because they aren't? As someone else pointed out Poe was the idiot who blurted out their plan in earshot of the guy who ended up selling them out. And Snoke's the dumbass who couldn't see how emotionally abusing the psychologically disturbed man boy would have negative consequences. And Finn's the dumb dumb who trusted a criminal behind bars with valuable information. And Hux is the moron for letting his Dreadnaught get blown up. And Kylo Ren is the idiot who fell for Luke's trap etc etc etc.

bartholen:

Vrex360:
I welcome other opinions too but it might be nice to hear counter arguments beyond the screeching 'FEMINAZI SJWS TURNED MY STAR WARS INTO BETA MALE SOY AND IT CUCKED MY CHILDHOOD WITH AN INTERRACIAL GAY TRANSEXUAL PENIS' chorus that is my fucking youtube suggested feed any time this movie comes up.

Are you serious?

I mean, sincerely, are you serious?

The film's been out for over half a year and is perhaps the most divisive, debated and widely both criticized and praised film of the decade, with thousands of hours of content made about it. Yet somehow you've missed every counterargument about the tonal imbalance, the poor script, the character assassination of one of cinema's most beloved heroes, the sacrificing of common sense for spectacle, essentially breaking the universe's already flimsy logic and rules in half with concepts like lightspeed kamikaze, bullshit "subverting of expectations", "tell, don't show" filmmaking and the list goes on. You've missed all of that, and seen nothing but the tired old "sjw beta cucks bwaa bwaa" horseshit?

Hi, please watch the video I linked which covered all of those points so I don't have to. I also have another post down here, the bottom of which I elaborate on the frustration between legit critics and bad faith trolls that permeate the entire discourse around this movie.

Adam Jensen:

Vrex360:
I'm sure I'll get to Plinket later but for now I just wanna say, as someone who actually LIKED the Last Jedi, I would refer you to this review by one Shaun of Shaun and Jen fame.

I honestly do encourage people to watch this one. I welcome other opinions too but it might be nice to hear counter arguments beyond the screeching 'FEMINAZI SJWS TURNED MY STAR WARS INTO BETA MALE SOY AND IT CUCKED MY CHILDHOOD WITH AN INTERRACIAL GAY TRANSEXUAL PENIS' chorus that is my fucking youtube suggested feed any time this movie comes up.

While I agree with his points, that still doesn't change the fact that TLJ is a boring movie and that it's at least half an hour longer than it should have been. Even if everything about the story and characters makes sense, it remains boring to watch. The scenes simply aren't entertaining, most of the characters are boring and they do boring stuff. And don't get me started on the forced Disney "humor". It doesn't work at all. It just makes matters worse because it keeps disrupting the tone that the movie is desperately trying to set. Humor in this movie is essentially like a very annoying heckler. I'm seriously starting to think that Disney has some kind of quota of "funny" lines and moments that every movie must have. That's how fuckin' forced the "jokes" feel in this movie.

Well see at least that's actually an argument being made in good faith. So there's that.

Okay, the dreadnought thing keeps being brought up, but was it ever specified that the dreadnought would still have the range to take out the Resistance fleet?

Hawki:
Okay, the dreadnought thing keeps being brought up, but was it ever specified that the dreadnought would still have the range to take out the Resistance fleet?

It's unclear, but its possible.

By the same token, you could argue Poe getting so many people killed wouldn't matter, as Kylo's bombing run of the landing bay would have killed them all anyway.

Either way, it doesn't really change that in the moment, he made a bad call. If he was 'right' in the long run, it was by luck, not judgement, and he certainly was not making logical, well informed choices. Plus he was ignoring voices above him telling him what he didn't want to hear.

Have not always agreed with their point of view, even though they're pretty close to a lot of good points. But their review of that particular film I did disagree with the most, as it appeared they let their nostalgia get the better of them that time and fell into the double-standard such nostalgia so easily creates, putting the past enjoyment on a pedestal while applying a different standard of criticisms for the new thing.. It's not too bad, as I think everyone, no matter how self-critical they believe they are, falls for it at some point. But it has unfortunately validated others harbouring equal or stronger nostalgia with all the confirmation bias they need, in turn, validating them back, including the side-effect of those who have-less-than savoury views towards exposure to people who are surface-level different to what they're comfortable with, and have no qualms letting those people know about it.
That type of nostalgia has diminished interest in any further reference they intend to use of the film, including this recent addition. I still enjoy the rest of their work though.

Johnny Novgorod:
This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.

Oh God, yeah. Twitter will not shut up and are really going overboard with it despite Mr. Plinkett being fictional. I didn't find the review funny, but comedy is subjective and it probably got others to laugh. Which is fine. I'm cool with that.

Natemans:

Johnny Novgorod:
This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.

Oh God, yeah. Twitter will not shut up and are really going overboard with it despite Mr. Plinkett being fictional. I didn't find the review funny, but comedy is subjective and it probably got others to laugh. Which is fine. I'm cool with that.

I admit going in blind here as I've not watched any of the reveiws, but as I understand it the joke with 'Mr Plinkett' is he's a serial killer who kidnaps, abuses and murders women, and (as of at least one of the prequel reviews) he's got at least one victim in waiting stashed in his basement?

Yeah, I can see why that kind of humour would put a lot of people off.

Who the hell wants to listen to an hour-long review in a stupid voice?

There's not much point criticising the movie when even if it's as bad as claimed, it's still more enjoyable than your review.

Adam Jensen:

While I agree with his points, that still doesn't change the fact that TLJ is a boring movie and that it's at least half an hour longer than it should have been.

In context, that's true of 90% of major Hollywood action blockbusters these days.

Agema:
Who the hell wants to listen to an hour-long review in a stupid voice?

Yeah, I skipped 20 minutes ahead to see if that was just a made up voice and it does drag on. I wasn't going to say anything because that might just be how he sounds like in reality and that's a bit harsh.

Can someone confirm this is just a play actor voice he does or whether it's his real voice? If it's a play actor voice then I already know to avoid thecommentary entirely because why would you purposely be that annoying to listen to for so long if you didn't want people to tune out?

immortalfrieza:
All Holdo had to do was say something akin to "I know things look hopeless, but trust me, there is a plan in place to survive this on a Need To Know basis. As long as everyone does their part we WILL get out of this alive". It would have made so much more sense that way and what's worse, everything could have gone the exact same way that it did and in fact Poe's arc could have been the same but presented much much better by simply having Poe not believe her and/or think he knew better and thus do what he did anyway. Poe actually shows really good leadership ability by trying to find another way, rather than what the movie wants us to think which is that he's just being a hotshot arrogant flyboy rather than a leader and needs to be taken down a few pegs.

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but she does do that. She does pretty much exactly that. She tells him that thing about the sun and how its not hope if you only believe in it while its in the sky, you have to trust in it at night as well or however that went.
So essentially "Hey just because you can't see the thing doesn't mean the thing isn't there and you can't believe in it or trust it any more." She is telling him there is a plan, and even if doesn't know what it is he should trust it. And Poe accepts it and goes along with it...until he get enough glimpses to think he knows what the plan is, whereupon his temper flares and he throws a strop like a child rather than seeing if he's got things right, instantly proving everything Holdo said about him being a hothead who should be kept on a tighter leash absolutely right. If he's going to act like a baby throwing a tantrum because things aren't going the way he likes why should he be given any involvement in the plan?

Hawki:
Okay, the dreadnought thing keeps being brought up, but was it ever specified that the dreadnought would still have the range to take out the Resistance fleet?

Probably. It had no trouble picking off a terrestrial bunker complex from a fairly high orbit so I doubt the distance the Resistance fleet gets would have given it any trouble at all

Vrex360:

Hi, please watch the video I linked which covered all of those points so I don't have to. I also have another post down here, the bottom of which I elaborate on the frustration between legit critics and bad faith trolls that permeate the entire discourse around this movie.

I watched it, and it didn't. The best summation of TLJ I've seen is in the Plinkett review. It's a short, silent movie style clip of a guy ordering wine at a restaurant. When the wine is brought, at first he looks like he's going to pour it into the wine glass, but then proceeds to pour it onto the table and smirk at the camera. That's essentially the mentality Rian Johnson seems to have directed this movie with. "Haha, I bet you weren't expecting that". Well yeah, but you could say the same thing about a guy who drives down to the gas station, pours gasoline all over himself and sets himself on fire. I've seen "subverting of expectations" used as a major defense for this film, and I really don't see why. Just because it subverts our expectations doesn't make it good or clever. Hell, I'm not even sure if it qualifies as a subversion. English is a second language to me, but as I've understood it, the term, at least in the context of cinema, implies that an audience has certain expectations for something, and is then taken by surprise when events go the completely opposite or altogether different round. Where TLJ failed the hardest for me was the "has certain expectations" part. Because I didn't have any.

The Last Jedi seems to hinge entirely on the assumption that after TFA everyone would simply expect an exact carbon copy of Empire Strikes Back. Rian Johnson pretty much confirms this when he talks about Rose and Finn meeting a "scoundrel who the audience expects to have a heart of gold". And when the viewer doesn't have those very specific expectations, the entire movie falls flat on its face so hard it embeds itself into the ground. The reveal about Rey's parents being nobodies is only shocking if one was expecting a reveal on par with the Vader one. If one didn't, the whole thing just feels anticlimactic. They build the whole thing up pretty fucking hard in TFA, but it completely deflates in TLJ. Whoever Benicio del Toro played betraying Finn and Rose is only shocking if you were expecting him to be an exact Han Solo replica. And so on and so on.

The video did talk about people complaining about Luke's death, but not about the ruination of his character. I simply don't buy, and neither do a lot of people, that the man who did what Luke Skywalker did would turn into this bitter shell of a man. The justification for him even considering killing Kylo is simply fucking laughable in comparison to what he went through in the original trilogy.

Oh, and let's not forget how this movie actively contradicts the previous installment. Remember how TFA was about Luke having left a map for the Resistance to find him... only for him to say in TLJ that he doesn't want to be found

I could go on but I've got work tomorrow and there's nothing to be said about this piece of crap film that would make me feel any different about it. MovieBob's olympics-level mental gymnastics were particularly insufferable. It's awful. I'll leave with this: The new Star Wars trilogy so far can be summarized as a balloon that's first pumped with air and then the person pedaling the pump changes. The new guy proceeds to let the balloon loose, deflating everything that was built up, and allowing the balloon to run in completely random, nonsensical directions to ultimately no effect. What we're left with is a withered, empty husk that's left exactly in the state it started out in.

You know it's pretty amazing how of all the current and former servicemen I know, not one sides with Holdo on the "Poe or Holdo" argument. In fact my own father pointed out that under Canadian law, while Leia's order was legal, Poe following it would not have been given the position he was in.

Palindromemordnilap:
Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but she does do that. She does pretty much exactly that. She tells him that thing about the sun and how its not hope if you only believe in it while its in the sky, you have to trust in it at night as well or however that went.
So essentially "Hey just because you can't see the thing doesn't mean the thing isn't there and you can't believe in it or trust it any more." She is telling him there is a plan, and even if doesn't know what it is he should trust it. And Poe accepts it and goes along with it...until he get enough glimpses to think he knows what the plan is, whereupon his temper flares and he throws a strop like a child rather than seeing if he's got things right, instantly proving everything Holdo said about him being a hothead who should be kept on a tighter leash absolutely right. If he's going to act like a baby throwing a tantrum because things aren't going the way he likes why should he be given any involvement in the plan?

Holdo had a morale crisis on her hands, and handled it in a textbook example of doing everything wrong every step of the way. She had no reason to withhold the plan from Poe, in fact after Kylo's attack he was shown to be the second highest ranking officer still in action, meaning he above all others would need to know what the hell was going on. In fact with the information he had available to him, his arresting Holdo was the correct course of action, which is why the crew followed him rather then siding with her. Ask any servicemen, they'll explain to you in detail why Holdo was an incompetent leader, her only positive action on screen was removing herself from the chain of command.

Also on an unrelated note, why is Leia a general anyway? I mean ignoring the fact a military rank doesn't remove her noble rank, in the OT she wasn't a part of the Alliance's military, she was a part of its civilian body, which is why the only thing she did in the OT military wise was briefing one of the squadrons of fighters, and being one of the grunts on Han's infiltration party. She should have been the civilian leader of the Resistance, not its military leader. She certainly showed no competence at the job.

And why are fleets of ships being ordered around by generals anyway?

bartholen:

I watched it, and it didn't. The best summation of TLJ I've seen is in the Plinkett review. It's a short, silent movie style clip of a guy ordering wine at a restaurant. When the wine is brought, at first he looks like he's going to pour it into the wine glass, but then proceeds to pour it onto the table and smirk at the camera. That's essentially the mentality Rian Johnson seems to have directed this movie with. "Haha, I bet you weren't expecting that".

IT BROKE NEW GROUND!!!

Well yeah, but you could say the same thing about a guy who drives down to the gas station, pours gasoline all over himself and sets himself on fire. I've seen "subverting of expectations" used as a major defense for this film, and I really don't see why. Just because it subverts our expectations doesn't make it good or clever. Hell, I'm not even sure if it qualifies as a subversion. English is a second language to me, but as I've understood it, the term, at least in the context of cinema, implies that an audience has certain expectations for something, and is then taken by surprise when events go the completely opposite or altogether different round. Where TLJ failed the hardest for me was the "has certain expectations" part. Because I didn't have any.

Funny thing is, ESB is an actual example of a movie that subverts our expectations. Going in people probably thought it was going to be another light hearted adventure like the first, but the big climactic battle happens right in the first act, the bad guys win (this was very rare for a movie in 1980), Luke finds out the great Jedi he was expecting to see wasn't a larger then life warrior but a little guy barely two feet tall, the Empire is always a step ahead of Han and company, Luke falls into Vader's trap, Leia doesn't save Han, Luke gets his ass kicked, we find out Ben lied about Vader killing his father, Luke tries to kill himself to avoid capture and only survives through luck, and it ends on a sombre tone rather then the upbeat one of the first movie.

Given how poorly sequels had done up to that point both critically and financially, it's easy to understand why was terrified about how the movie was going to do. A critique from some paper put it best: "It was different. No better or worst then the first, but different". No one expected a movie like ESB in 1980, nor would they have had reason to.

Oh, and let's not forget how this movie actively contradicts the previous installment. Remember how TFA was about Luke having left a map for the Resistance to find him... only for him to say in TLJ that he doesn't want to be found

It also contradicts why he went to the temple in the first place. In TFA we're told he went there to study the temple, implying he was trying to learn about the old Jedi ways that had been lost. Now we're told the Jedi ways need to end, and he came to that conclusion before he even went there.

Palindromemordnilap:

Probably. It had no trouble picking off a terrestrial bunker complex from a fairly high orbit so I doubt the distance the Resistance fleet gets would have given it any trouble at all

That doesn't say much. The fleets are moving, have shields, and are almost certainly at much further distances. The dreadnought could certainly hit them, but it's iffy as to whether it could do any damage.

bartholen:

Rian Johnson pretty much confirms this when he talks about Rose and Finn meeting a "scoundrel who the audience expects to have a heart of gold". And when the viewer doesn't have those very specific expectations, the entire movie falls flat on its face so hard it embeds itself into the ground.

-The scoundrel with a heart of gold is a trope that exists outside Star Wars (ironically popularized in part by Star Wars itself), so subversion here works without contextual knowledge.

-DJ weighs into the future subversion in the shuttle scene where he gives Rose back her jewelry.

-Even if it's not subverting the expectations of the audience, it IS subverting the expectations of Finn, since his character arc is based on coming to terms with how the galaxy isn't just black and white, yet he's still committed to fighting for the "right" side.

The reveal about Rey's parents being nobodies is only shocking if one was expecting a reveal on par with the Vader one. If one didn't, the whole thing just feels anticlimactic. They build the whole thing up pretty fucking hard in TFA, but it completely deflates in TLJ.

You're kind of shooting your own point down by acknowledging that it is built up in TFA, though primarily by Rey herself. Expecting Rey's parents to be somebodies is again, a trope not specific to Star Wars. Also, I never knew anyone who didn't have some kind of theory on Rey's parents. I hoped they would be nobodies (and was validated), but many other people had different theories.

Whoever Benicio del Toro played betraying Finn and Rose is only shocking if you were expecting him to be an exact Han Solo replica.

See above.

The video did talk about people complaining about Luke's death, but not about the ruination of his character. I simply don't buy, and neither do a lot of people, that the man who did what Luke Skywalker did would turn into this bitter shell of a man. The justification for him even considering killing Kylo is simply fucking laughable in comparison to what he went through in the original trilogy.

I can only agree to disagree there.

Oh, and let's not forget how this movie actively contradicts the previous installment. Remember how TFA was about Luke having left a map for the Resistance to find him... only for him to say in TLJ that he doesn't want to be found

Which is a valid crticism.

Zontar:

And why are fleets of ships being ordered around by generals anyway?

Since at least Return of the Jedi, which not only has Lando directing attack squadrons, but somehow gets the post after being with the Alliance for a year.

Though this is the same Alliance that made Han a general within three years, so, um, yay?

Windknight:

I admit going in blind here as I've not watched any of the reveiws, but as I understand it the joke with 'Mr Plinkett' is he's a serial killer who kidnaps, abuses and murders women, and (as of at least one of the prequel reviews) he's got at least one victim in waiting stashed in his basement?

Mr. Plinkett supposed to be this disgusting, fat, smelly, basement dwelling slob of a nerd stereotype(But a movie!nerd. Important, because he's old instead in his 20/30s, and owns the house and the basement. Who yearns for the simpler times of his youth, when mobies were good and on casettes) taken to a logical extreme.
Over time his character developedvolved into this demented sex pervert/serial killer that lives on pills and pizza rolls.
It's a rich lore. Oh, and lots of poop jokes.

Natemans:

Johnny Novgorod:
This may not be the strongest Plinkett video but it's got my favorite internet car crash foaming at the mouth on social media.
Good enough.

Oh God, yeah. Twitter will not shut up and are really going overboard with it despite Mr. Plinkett being fictional. I didn't find the review funny, but comedy is subjective and it probably got others to laugh. Which is fine. I'm cool with that.

If I don't see a 20 minute PLOT HOLES DON'T MATTER video first thing Monday on the front page I'm going to be disappointed.

Adam Jensen:

Johnny Novgorod:
Can anybody give an intelligent reason for Laura Dern to stubbornly hold back her plan from Poe/her troops, other than giving Poe, Finn and Rose something to do?

The entire resistance depends on that information staying secret, so I'm guessing that it was a military secret on a need-to-know basis only. You can't risk something that important leaking to the enemy.

By that rationale why aren't leaders keeping rebels in the dark about everything, just in case something leaks out?
I understand the logic but it seems like a shoestring excuse considering at no point is it established Holdo doesn't trust Poe (or anybody else) or that the alliance is in any danger of spies. If that were the case lying and demoralizing your troops seems like a poor strategy. And in any case I don't agree with "blindly follow your leaders" as a lesson in Star Wars.

To me it's just a plot contrivance just so we can get to a "told you so" moment. Same deal with Rose preventing Finn from sacrificing himself (while potentially killing the two of them, as well as everybody else at the base) while Holdo... sacrifices herself.

Vrex360:
Snip.

Okay, not answering guilt by association, straw men, or red herrings. You want to play that game, you can do it without me. I'm talking about my criticisms of the movie, thank you very much, and I intend to keep it that way.

First, why should we question Leia's and Holdo's actions? Well, in the first case the character has a well-established pedigree in the franchise and, bare minimum, it behooves us to check her characterization in TLJ for consistency and fidelity. The last we saw of Leia, it was of a young woman who was brash and hotheaded in her own way, but mature well beyond her age and quickly growing into her role as a leader. We even see her -- for the little she is in the film -- in TFA as a mature stateswoman who carries herself with great aplomb and sense of decorum regardless of circumstance, which flows from her character growth in the OT perfectly. Her characterization in TLJ is, in my opinion, closer to ANH than any film in which the character was seen since, which demonstrates a regression in her characterization.

And yes, a slap is an assault. The definition of assault is literally to physically attack someone. That's what Leia did. She assaulted Poe. If you don't like that, I would direct you to the nearest dictionary so that you may look up the definition of the word yourself.

As far as "that was a fluke", well you're the one bringing up the space wizards, laser swords, and the presence of a unifying and guiding presence in the SW universe that ensures that, in the context of the universe we're discussing, there are no such thing as flukes or coincidences. That's something Leia would know, being Luke's twin sister and Vader's daughter and all, and considering Holdo of all people is canonically Force-sensitive, she'd know that too, especially considering understanding of the presence and importance of the Force isn't limited to only Jedi in the Star Wars universe.

I mean, beyond that, you'd be surprised the importance of instinct, intuition, and informed guesswork that goes into successful military options.

TLJ is Holdo's first appearance. Her entire background is listed in throwaway lines in one scene. Her writing in the film must be consistent with those lines in order to have any parsimony, and at least in my opinion Johnson failed horrifically at that.

And, here's the thing about lines of argument such as yours. Accepting a sitrep from the senior flight officer isn't suborning herself to a man. Neither is keeping said senior officer in the loop about planning, or making a proposal she instrumentalize him -- as a strategic asset -- in her plan. Expecting military leaders to utilize every strategic asset at their disposal to maximize their chances of success while minimizing cost, doesn't magically transform itself into misogyny when and if those strategic assets have a penis.

Now, at this point we have to consider the acceptance of women characters in past movies. Leia was characterized as a gung-ho, no fucks given, hotheaded military leader from the first minutes of ANH. People loved gung-ho, no fucks given, Leia. Why? Because even though it was a hail mary pass against insurmountable odds, it made sense. It was her only play.

Before the CG series, Mon Mothma got less screen time than Holdo did in her first scene alone, and people loved the fuck out of her. She planned Endor, and she was the one to deliver the briefing, yet people loved the fuck out of her. Because she was characterized as a no-nonsense, level-headed, diplomat and strategist whose plans were sensible and easily understood from initiation to conclusion, even though they were also hail mary plays with little if any chance of success.

Yet in TLJ, we have Holdo who concocted a pretty smart plan that had an extremely high chance of success given the odds and developing situation. Costly, hail mary pass? sure, but as you said when hasn't that been the case in Star Wars? It went to shit because she didn't communicate it. So, you have to ask yourself: why do fans reject Holdo, when they loved Leia and Mon Mothma?

Because Rian Johnson wrote Holdo to be stupid. I'm sure that wasn't his intent, but that's what happened. And, I can only speak for myself, but that's almost entirely why I'm pissed at him -- BECAUSE of the way he wrote women characters. SW is a space opera franchise flush with meaningful, good, women characters, and Johnson took a steaming shit on that particular part of the SW legacy.

Now, Poe. Poe's not the idiot who had the conversation about the whole damn plan on speakerphone. The code breaker probably would have figured it out when they needed him to break into the tracking device's room, anyhow. Not that it mattered, BB-H8 blew the whole thing by being a BB droid and the First Order would have gotten their information anyways. I think the First Order probably would have figured it out by the fact they were trying to break into the tracking device's room in the first place.

So, let's discuss an alternate scenario. How about Holdo brought Poe into the loop on her plan, Poe was considering mutinying anyways, and tried to bring Finn along for the ride. Except, Rose lays into him for causing her sister's death, and it triggers a massive argument between the three characters. Rose walks away having gotten some catharsis for her sister's death, Finn walks away with a better understanding of his place in the Resistance and those who count on him, and Poe walks away with a more personalized understanding his choices have a consequence in terms of lives.

That triggers Poe to decide, "no more deaths today", and he goes all-in on Holdo's plan. There's your middle act, the emotional backbone of the movie apart from Rey on Ahch-To, and "subversion!" in the form the mid-movie action comes not in the form of blasters and lightsabers, but words. And, suddenly, everything that happened before in the movie, and will happen later, comes into sharp focus without, you know, contradicting the film's own themes on the most fundamental levels.

As far as everyone else, they at least have their moments of Not Being Stupid. Something sorely deprived of the women characters...and that brings us back to my original point, Johnson's writing is misogynist AF, and no accusations of misogyny on those who call it out will change that.

Zontar:
Holdo had a morale crisis on her hands, and handled it in a textbook example of doing everything wrong every step of the way.

You'll excuse me if I don't think the textbooks you think you know don't quite cover evacuating a planet and finding out your enemy can track you through hyperspace

Zontar:
She had no reason to withhold the plan from Poe, in fact after Kylo's attack he was shown to be the second highest ranking officer still in action, meaning he above all others would need to know what the hell was going on. In fact with the information he had available to him, his arresting Holdo was the correct course of action, which is why the crew followed him rather then siding with her. Ask any servicemen, they'll explain to you in detail why Holdo was an incompetent leader, her only positive action on screen was removing herself from the chain of command.

I seriously doubt Poe is the second highest ranking officer there. With his demotion he's only got a few fighters under command, there are people there commanding entire cruisers. He expects to be made the one in charge, clearly, but thats more because of his personality. Reality kicks in and they go with someone who actually has leadership experience.
As for "no reason to withhold the plan from Poe" how about because he might react badly to it because its not the dramatic solution he wants? You know, like exactly what he goes and does? And why does she need a reason to tell him every detail of the plan? She tells him there is a plan and he should trust it...and he flies off the handle in a completely unprofessional manner.

Zontar:
Also on an unrelated note, why is Leia a general anyway? I mean ignoring the fact a military rank doesn't remove her noble rank, in the OT she wasn't a part of the Alliance's military, she was a part of its civilian body, which is why the only thing she did in the OT military wise was briefing one of the squadrons of fighters, and being one of the grunts on Han's infiltration party. She should have been the civilian leader of the Resistance, not its military leader. She certainly showed no competence at the job.

And why are fleets of ships being ordered around by generals anyway?

Oh questioning how the ranks work in Star Wars is a rabbit hole we don't want to go down. Han goes from "this smuggler who helped us out for a bit" to "respected general" in the space of the few years between New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, and seems to have gained another promotion by Return of the Jedi despite having done nothing but sleep in carbonite between those movies. Its mad, mad I tell you!

Hawki:

Palindromemordnilap:

Probably. It had no trouble picking off a terrestrial bunker complex from a fairly high orbit so I doubt the distance the Resistance fleet gets would have given it any trouble at all

That doesn't say much. The fleets are moving, have shields, and are almost certainly at much further distances. The dreadnought could certainly hit them, but it's iffy as to whether it could do any damage.

The whole reason Leia wanted to get out of there rather than fight the dreadnought was because its big guns would have had no trouble pulverising the Resistance fleet, shields or no. A few good shots from that thing would have blown even the Raddus to bits

Eacaraxe:

Vrex360:
Snip.

Okay, not answering guilt by association, straw men, or red herrings. You want to play that game, you can do it without me.

Dude I brought it up because I'm getting really tired of seeing people pretending that there isn't a toxic sexist racist and just generally hateful side to the backlash of this movie, it's not all of it but there's enough of it that the stink really rises. You said Rian Johnson was more sexist than the people attacking the movie so I felt I needed to remind you just how high of a bar that actually is to clear.

I'm talking about my criticisms of the movie, thank you very much, and I intend to keep it that way.

Yes and you can do that without downplaying or dismissing the toxic nature of other criticisms, if you don't want to do that don't bring it up.

First, why should we question Leia's and Holdo's actions? Well, in the first case the character has a well-established pedigree in the franchise and, bare minimum, it behooves us to check her characterization in TLJ for consistency and fidelity. The last we saw of Leia, it was of a young woman who was brash and hotheaded in her own way, but mature well beyond her age and quickly growing into her role as a leader. We even see her -- for the little she is in the film -- in TFA as a mature stateswoman who carries herself with great aplomb and sense of decorum regardless of circumstance, which flows from her character growth in the OT perfectly. Her characterization in TLJ is, in my opinion, closer to ANH than any film in which the character was seen since, which demonstrates a regression in her characterization.

How? She's a military leader struggling to maintain order in a crisis, that tough as nails attitude is naturally going to come out.

And yes, a slap is an assault. The definition of assault is literally to physically attack someone. That's what Leia did. She assaulted Poe. If you don't like that, I would direct you to the nearest dictionary so that you may look up the definition of the word yourself.

I feel like you're getting really hung up on the insignificant part of my response there. See the meat of my argument was that given Poe defied orders in full view of everyone Leia was not only within her rights but also kinda obligated to show strength and dole out punishment and again he's lucky a slap and a demotion is all he got.

As far as "that was a fluke", well you're the one bringing up the space wizards, laser swords, and the presence of a unifying and guiding presence in the SW universe that ensures that, in the context of the universe we're discussing, there are no such thing as flukes or coincidences. That's something Leia would know, being Luke's twin sister and Vader's daughter and all, and considering Holdo of all people is canonically Force-sensitive, she'd know that too, especially considering understanding of the presence and importance of the Force isn't limited to only Jedi in the Star Wars universe.

Yeah but by that logic that means you can argue that everything the characters do is always predetermined, no one actually has free will and thus there is no need to be invested in anything or try for anything because destiny simply wills the outcome and no one has any control over it. There have to be some limitations for the story to have coherent rules and stakes so even with the all powerful force people are still governed by free will and still capable of fucking up.

I mean, beyond that, you'd be surprised the importance of instinct, intuition, and informed guesswork that goes into successful military options.

And I promise you the army that carefully plans and strategies will still ultimately win out over the people who just go with their guts.

TLJ is Holdo's first appearance. Her entire background is listed in throwaway lines in one scene. Her writing in the film must be consistent with those lines in order to have any parsimony, and at least in my opinion Johnson failed horrifically at that.

Well agree to disagree.

And, here's the thing about lines of argument such as yours. Accepting a sitrep from the senior flight officer isn't suborning herself to a man.

No that's not what I said. What I said was it was wierd that you are operating under the assumption that she doesn't know the situation herself, she's a higher up in the Resistance, and that she was unable to have access to relevant information without the assistance of Poe. If Poe were the only one able to give her a sitrep and it was reasonable to assume she needed one then I would have no problem with that, it is your assumption that she would need Poe to do those things in the first place that I take issue with.

Neither is keeping said senior officer in the loop about planning, or making a proposal she instrumentalize him -- as a strategic asset -- in her plan.

A senior officer who just defied orders and got people killed and was subsequently demoted. He's still sitting in the 'time out corner' metaphorically speaking.

Expecting military leaders to utilize every strategic asset at their disposal to maximize their chances of success while minimizing cost, doesn't magically transform itself into misogyny when and if those strategic assets have a penis.

No it doesn't and I don't think it is 'misogyny' at least not in the sense of how you are using the word. She is still utilizing him as a strategic asset, she's just not wasting time spoonfeeding him intel when she doesn't have to. The onus should be on him to prove himself capable of following basic commands.
And keep in mind she does tell him there is a plan and he still ends up folding but more on that later.

Now, at this point we have to consider the acceptance of women characters in past movies. Leia was characterized as a gung-ho, no fucks given, hotheaded military leader from the first minutes of ANH. People loved gung-ho, no fucks given, Leia. Why? Because even though it was a hail mary pass against insurmountable odds, it made sense. It was her only play.

It was also just kinda who she was.

Before the CG series, Mon Mothma got less screen time than Holdo did in her first scene alone, and people loved the fuck out of her. She planned Endor, and she was the one to deliver the briefing, yet people loved the fuck out of her. Because she was characterized as a no-nonsense, level-headed, diplomat and strategist whose plans were sensible and easily understood from initiation to conclusion, even though they were also hail mary plays with little if any chance of success.

She also wasn't on screen for very long, she mainly existed just to serve up exposition.

Yet in TLJ, we have Holdo who concocted a pretty smart plan that had an extremely high chance of success given the odds and developing situation. Costly, hail mary pass? sure, but as you said when hasn't that been the case in Star Wars? It went to shit because she didn't communicate it.

Actually it went to shit because she did. Poe found out, word spread around and it found itself in the hands of the First Order thus leading the First order to taking out a lot of their shuttles and pursuing them to the planet's surface.

So, you have to ask yourself: why do fans reject Holdo, when they loved Leia and Mon Mothma?

I refer you back to the spinning ying yang. Some had legit issues, others had less savoury reasons and when both are screaming out in irrational hatred it is really hard to tell where the line is drawn between them.
But again, I'll address your point.

Because Rian Johnson wrote Holdo to be stupid. I'm sure that wasn't his intent, but that's what happened. And, I can only speak for myself, but that's almost entirely why I'm pissed at him -- BECAUSE of the way he wrote women characters. SW is a space opera franchise flush with meaningful, good, women characters, and Johnson took a steaming shit on that particular part of the SW legacy.

Tell that to the fans who decided to do an edit of the movie omitting every scene with a female character in it and complained about it being 'too diverse'. I suspect one reason a lot of those guys liked Leia and Mothma is because they were singular Smurfette's in a galaxy of dudes so the status quo wasn't challenged all that much.

Besides which this is more a case of plot serving theme than anything else, Poe was one way and had to learn to become another.

Now, Poe. Poe's not the idiot who had the conversation about the whole damn plan on speakerphone.

Isn't he? Been a while since I've seen it, might be misremembering but basically the information does get leaked, proving Holdo right about limiting how much that information could spread lest it spread to the enemy. Why does Poe get a free pass for not sitting still rejecting his leader's assurance that there actually was a plan? Maybe the fault is on him constantly disobeying orders.

The code breaker probably would have figured it out when they needed him to break into the tracking device's room, anyhow. Not that it mattered, BB-H8 blew the whole thing by being a BB droid and the First Order would have gotten their information anyways.

A. How do you know that?
B. How would it be reasonable to expect Holdo and the Resistance to know that?
C. If the chance of information like that getting leaked was so insanely high again, does that not validate that Holdo was right to keep the number of people in the know in the small numbers?

I think the First Order probably would have figured it out by the fact they were trying to break into the tracking device's room in the first place.

You're right. Stupid Poe, why couldn't he use his magical all seeing 'gut' to forsee that it was a terrible plan?

So, let's discuss an alternate scenario. How about Holdo brought Poe into the loop on her plan, Poe was considering mutinying anyways, and tried to bring Finn along for the ride. Except, Rose lays into him for causing her sister's death, and it triggers a massive argument between the three characters. Rose walks away having gotten some catharsis for her sister's death, Finn walks away with a better understanding of his place in the Resistance and those who count on him, and Poe walks away with a more personalized understanding his choices have a consequence in terms of lives.

That triggers Poe to decide, "no more deaths today", and he goes all-in on Holdo's plan. There's your middle act, the emotional backbone of the movie apart from Rey on Ahch-To, and "subversion!" in the form the mid-movie action comes not in the form of blasters and lightsabers, but words. And, suddenly, everything that happened before in the movie, and will happen later, comes into sharp focus without, you know, contradicting the film's own themes on the most fundamental levels.

Granted that probably would be better.

As far as everyone else, they at least have their moments of Not Being Stupid. Something sorely deprived of the women characters...and that brings us back to my original point, Johnson's writing is misogynist AF, and no accusations of misogyny on those who call it out will change that.

And again I simply disagree.

Eacaraxe:
Her characterization in TLJ is, in my opinion, closer to ANH than any film in which the character was seen since, which demonstrates a regression in her characterization.

We have relatively little idea what Leia's development has been over the intervening years.

It's not that it's invalid you have your unhappiness about Leia slapping Poe and what it represents, but on the other hand I think it's based on a lot of subjective interpretations. For instance, we can equally assume that the slap represents her fiery spirit still going underneath her shell of an experienced leader. Or maybe it can reflect a minor loss of control given the stress of her husband/lover having been murdered by their son, the capital system of the Republic getting blown up, and her small force being in desperate trouble.

Now, at this point we have to consider the acceptance of women characters in past movies. Leia was characterized as a gung-ho, no fucks given, hotheaded military leader...

...who appeared to do very little military leading. I didn't see her direct a fleet, command an X-fighter squadron, captain a cruiser, or oversee land defences on Hoth. One might note she helps assault a base on Endor, but under the command of Han Solo. Perhaps in books and TV shows she's fleshed out with more role in military activities, but from the original trilogy she's really more a political leader.

* * *

But really going back to the first point, how much of this is actually wrong, and how much of it is just that certain members of the audience don't like it? Potentially, of course, not liking it because they've brought a truckload of their own preconceptions about how it should be.

For instance, I'm aware that some vocal critics are annoyed about some sort of feminist message because some woman's an admiral or something. But that's only a problem for them because they're going into these movies deliberately looking for women and gender interactions that can be perceived as "feminist" so they can rage on the internet about it later. Anyone not so primed just wouldn't really care. At a subconscious level, how many people maybe are annoyed about Holdo and Poe's interaction not because there's anything so wrong with it, but because Poe is a likeable, esetablished hero, and in this situation he is in the wrong. Wrong to a newcomer who is not likeable. The perception of right and wrong actually derives from the audience's established sympathies with the characters more than the situation.

Agema:

For instance, I'm aware that some vocal critics are annoyed about some sort of feminist message because some woman's an admiral or something. But that's only a problem for them because they're going into these movies deliberately looking for women and gender interactions that can be perceived as "feminist" so they can rage on the internet about it later. Anyone not so primed just wouldn't really care. At a subconscious level, how many people maybe are annoyed about Holdo and Poe's interaction not because there's anything so wrong with it, but because Poe is a likeable, esetablished hero, and in this situation he is in the wrong. Wrong to a newcomer who is not likeable. The perception of right and wrong actually derives from the audience's established sympathies with the characters more than the situation.

I've seen it argued that Holdo's design/persona is coded to intentionally put male nerds on the defensive. She's a 'fussy older woman' with hair designed to put you in mind of an elderly lady. And as said before, she doesn't coddle poe, she (justly) tears him down for his actions.

'We' (or at least a certain portion of the audience) are meant to be on Poe's side, bristling at this invader... so when he f***s up again, and learns a hard lesson, we learn that lesson alongside him.

But, as the internet has taught me, a LOT of people are unwilling to let go of initial impressions. They hated Holdo from the get go, so they can't accept she was right, and that Poe needed a hard lesson in humility and leadership.

Windknight:
They hated Holdo from the get go, so they can't accept she was right, and that Poe needed a hard lesson in humility and leadership.

What leadership? A gambit that would have backfired if the bad guys actually had any braincells between them? Sitting back and letting your forces get whittled down to next to nothing? Not giving any basic briefing on the apocalyptic situation your forces are now in? Reacting to an insubordinate as if he cocked up the tea run?

I have to ask, was anyone paying attention during the film? The big action sequence that opens the film has a specific closeup of a death ray pointed right at the rebel (I;m not calling it the resistance) capital ship. The opening is a nick of time rescue that is then forgotten 1 minute after, if you're going to make a big deal out how this is supposed to be some grand lesson, it could at least be coherent.

Hell, Oscar Isaac also saves the day in the last film too, so he's 2 up!

+1 to Johnny's point about blind obedience too, it's finny how the film that has space fascists as the bad guys and glosses over it also has a lesson about blindly following authority no matter how nonsensical it is.

Ninjamedic:

Windknight:
They hated Holdo from the get go, so they can't accept she was right, and that Poe needed a hard lesson in humility and leadership.

I have to ask, was anyone paying attention during the film? The big action sequence that opens the film has a specific closeup of a death ray pointed right at the rebel (I;m not calling it the resistance) capital ship. The opening is a nick of time rescue that is then forgotten 1 minute after, if you're going to make a big deal out how this is supposed to be some grand lesson, it could at least be coherent.

and if he had obeyed his orders, they would have jumped to lightspeed BEFORE THE GUN HAD GOT THAT CLOSE TO FIRING. They were only at risk of being obliterated in the first place because he wanted to be a hero, and he got a lot of people killed because of that.

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