Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

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twistedmic:

crimson5pheonix:

If it wasn't their entire fleet it may as well have been. They haven't shown up once, they must be less of a fighting fleet than even the resistance at this point, and the resistance is already not a threat.

The Last Jedo seems to take place mere DAYS after the entire Republic Home System is destroyed by a doomsday weapon. No military force in existence (real or fictional) could hope to field any surviving fleet or troops within a week of having ALL of their leadership destroyed.
Even the Empire from the original series was in big trouble after the battle of Endor.

Oh is that what's happening? Is the remainder of the Republic fleet going to come over the space ridge with ride of the Valkyries playing? It won't matter, they were already inferior to the FO fleet before they were mostly wiped out.

The reason why the excuse of "it crippled their battle potential" is bullshit from the start is that for it to cripple their battle potential, it had to be a threatening battle potential on it's own. It had to be a force capable of swinging a battle, whether tactically or strategically (and they were tactical craft). The force Poe lost doesn't come close to threatening the FO in any meaningful way, which means transitively it was not really meaningful to lose. They could pull off something really cool in a big battle, but that comes with the caveat that there is a big battle, which implies there are more forces than just the lost team. And as battles increase in scale, the impact of individual units decreases outside of specific edge cases like the first Death Star. So unless the final battle ends with Poe pulling a Luke and hitting a weak spot with a single shot, no losses they suffered up to this point meaningfully affect their final battle potential. And even then, it's Poe making a single shot, so the rest of the lost craft are still meaningless. Leia and Holdo overreacted. #PoeDidNothingWrong

Credit where credit is due, those are specific hypotheticals.

It seems to me that you believe that the one and only way to fight is a straight up, grand pitched battle with both sides lining up shoulder to shoulder and marching across the field with banners flying and fifes playing. But that is simply not true. Not in Star Wars, not in real life and not in any fiction I can recall reading or watching. Small scale battles can have dramatic consequences. For example, those five or six bombers that the Resistance had could have been used to destroy a First Order medical station or medical supply depot. Because of those lost supplies a plague breaks out on a First Order facility. Because of that plague that particular facility is weakened. Because of the weakened facility the Resistance is able to attack it with fewer losses. The First Order loses a facility and their combat effectiveness drops. Or say the Resistance uses those bombers to destroy an agricultural depot or planet. The First Order doesn't have enough food for their troops. First Order troops revolt because they are starving, discord is sown within the First Order. Or because they lost food production capability the First Order tries to take food from nearby planets and those planets fight back to keep their supplies.

The FO capital ships (like the one destroyed) have medical facilities, easily enough to temporarily reinforce a damaged or destroyed base. Not to mention that's unusually underhanded for the good guys to do, but honestly I would love to see heroes play dirty pool like that.

Funnily enough the agriculture thing was done in an anime for basically the same reason, but I'm not sure it'd be as effective against the FO. For one destroying one agricultural center isn't a very big dent when FTL exists, second the FO won't play games and will just wipe a world's population out to take their food if they need to maintain their battle fleet in the now.

Let's say the Resistance uses their bombers to destroy an arms factory (blasters/thermal detonators/armor etc.), the First Order doesn't have enough weapons to fully supply their troops. The First Order loses combat effectiveness.
The Resistance could use their bombers and fighters to destroy a fuel processing plant, the First Order cannot fuel all of their ships or fighters, the First Order loses combat effectiveness.

This is something they should have been doing before. But as established despite 30 years of preparation, the resistance didn't bother to survey the FO's base of operations at all. So who knows how well defended they are. Remember that "key force" Poe lost could about take on one ship when it doesn't defend itself properly.

The Resistance could infiltrate a First Order supply depot or shipyard and steal ether ships, weapons or fuel then sabotage the depot/shipyard. First Order loses materiel and manufacturing capabilities.

Same problem as above with the added bonus that it doesn't involve those ships he lost.

Here's another hypothetical- Holdo's plan went off without a hitch (because Poe didn't act like a spoiled glory-seeking brat) and the Resistance is able to hole-up on Crait until Rey shows up with Luke. Luke and Leia are able to gather enough allies that they are able to get resupplied. They now have a fighting force of hundreds that can be scattered around the galaxy to train more fighters or work on sabotaging First Order facilities and factories. As they gain support the Resistance can chip away at the First Order's strength. The First Order weakens or has to spread itself thinner and thinner to try and cover all of their territory from Resistance attacks, more an more First Order ships are destroyed or disabled.
The First Order is hurt without the Resistance having to duke it out in open conflict with a prepared enemy.

See the "gritty realism" possibility for the next movie. I beat you to that punch and Poe losing those ships doesn't have an affect on the strategy in that case.

Agema:

crimson5pheonix:
True, but there isn't a lingering question overhead of "what did Sauron do wrong?" for the readers to ponder the writer's decision.

- "Hi general, you know you told me to hold the line and not attack that fortified position in front of my brigade?"
- "Er, yes, colonel, I do"
- "Well I assaulted it anyway. WOO-HAH! Cost a whole battalion, but we took it!"
- "You fuckwit. We've launched an outflanking manoeuver, they would have been forced to abandon it. You've wasted 500 lives for nothing."
- "Right... so where's my medal, then?"

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.

But why not? I honestly cannot see a single convincing reason to believe she is an incompetent commander.

She takes over during an utter shitshow with nothing to do but run, enacts a reasonable plan to escape but is unable to fully carry it out due to unknowable factors beyond her control, and ends up completing the job by plan B of sacrificing herself.

If "incompetent" means declining to take time out from dealing with a crisis to tell a recently demoted, relatively junior officer her whole plan in detail, then some people have a very unrealistic notion of what competence is.

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

crimson5pheonix:

If it wasn't their entire fleet it may as well have been. They haven't shown up once, they must be less of a fighting fleet than even the resistance at this point, and the resistance is already not a threat.

Now this I concur with. It is to me a huge problem with the new Star Wars.

The irony is that politically it's supposed to be fighting for a democratic, relatively egalitarian Republic. And yet it's really just about a few superheroes. Fuck the fleets and the armies, one person with a lightsaber and a light freighter crew is all you really need to save the galaxy.

In order to set up the tedious underdog trope (i.e. repeat the original trilogy) and justify the superheroes doing all the heavy lifting, some stupid reason has to be manufactured why the Republic isn't using a fleet. There's no good way to do this, be it that the Republic left their entire fleet in a system that was destroyed wholesale (which is alarmingly deus ex machina), or that it was otherwise deployed too incompetently to resist an invasion, or it's far too small, etc. Implicitly, the Republic is shit. Why defend it? It was taken over by the emperor, and a few decades later after restoration, it is utterly inept in preparation to resist the descendant space-fascists of the Empire when they come a-knocking. Once in a lifetime might be bad luck, twice is incompetence. It is a state not worth defending, because it could barely do more to demonstrate its inability to protect its own population.

Exactly. They even tried to have a splinter fleet and say "but some weren't total idiots and were preparing", and they're still useless.

crimson5pheonix:

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

Okay - but the aim of the resistance at that point is surely to preserve resources. They've lost this battle, hopelessly. The task is therefore to retreat and (re-)build, for which they mostly need experienced personnel to run operations, train and lead new recruits. They need that much more than they need to destroy one of the enemy's many, large ships.

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

There's a difference between "maintaining troop morale" and "assuaging the fragile egos of cocky middle ranking officers".

The problem starts and ends at Poe. He's the really unhappy one, who actively incites the mutiny. He could have gone to cheer up the grunts, told them an experienced officer Leia herself trusted was in charge, and she could get them out of it. He doesn't, because he has taken a dislike to Holdo, which he does basically on her appearance. He thinks he knows better - even having already been taken down a peg by Leia hasn't taught him the lesson. Poe might fit the bill for the reckless, maverick hero... but he's a bad soldier, and the situation needs a soldier. He's the incompetent one.

Give it up already, Crimson. By this stage you're just embarrassing yourself. You've clearly thought about it a lot, which is admirable, but your argument itself just isn't holding any water. Let it go.

Agema:

crimson5pheonix:

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

Okay - but the aim of the resistance at that point is surely to preserve resources. They've lost this battle, hopelessly. The task is therefore to retreat and (re-)build, for which they mostly need experienced personnel to run operations, train and lead new recruits. They need that much more than they need to destroy one of the enemy's many, large ships.

That's much more reasonable a point. But it's not what they say. They considered the ships they lost to be their main battle force, which is stupid. So at best they were accidentally correct.

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

There's a difference between "maintaining troop morale" and "assuaging the fragile egos of cocky middle ranking officers".

The problem starts and ends at Poe. He's the really unhappy one, who actively incites the mutiny. He could have gone to cheer up the grunts, told them an experienced officer Leia herself trusted was in charge, and she could get them out of it. He doesn't, because he has taken a dislike to Holdo, which he does basically on her appearance. He thinks he knows better - even having already been taken down a peg by Leia hasn't taught him the lesson. Poe might fit the bill for the reckless, maverick hero... but he's a bad soldier, and the situation needs a soldier. He's the incompetent one.

Funnily enough I looked up Holdo's backstory as part of this thread and she's not a military commander. I mean, she is, but she kinda just walked into the resistance and was given a vice-admiral position. By the looks of it for being Leia's friend back in the day. Not that she was part of the rebellion, she was just Leia's friend.

But in any case, explaining your reasoning for your daring plan that's going to determine the fates of all your people is hardly "assuaging a fragile ego". That plan was going to determine if they were going to live or die, I'd want to know why you think it's a good idea.

Squilookle:
Give it up already, Crimson. By this stage you're just embarrassing yourself. You've clearly thought about it a lot, which is admirable, but your argument itself just isn't holding any water. Let it go.

No, come up with a real argument instead of sniping.

crimson5pheonix:

Oh is that what's happening? Is the remainder of the Republic fleet going to come over the space ridge with ride of the Valkyries playing? It won't matter, they were already inferior to the FO fleet before they were mostly wiped out.

I don't know if the remaining Republic fleet will show up in the next movie, I'm just stating a reason why they have not shown up in The Last Jedi. So, according to you the Republic fleet is worthless because they were heavily damaged by a surprise attack, right? Does that mean that the U.S. fleet was worthless during WWII because they were nearly wiped out by the Japanese surprise attack?

The FO capital ships (like the one destroyed) have medical facilities, easily enough to temporarily reinforce a damaged or destroyed base. Not to mention that's unusually underhanded for the good guys to do, but honestly I would love to see heroes play dirty pool like that.

That doesn't change the fact that the First Order will have to pull their resources away from their normal positions, which would given the Resistance a weaker front to attack.

Funnily enough the agriculture thing was done in an anime for basically the same reason, but I'm not sure it'd be as effective against the FO. For one destroying one agricultural center isn't a very big dent when FTL exists, second the FO won't play games and will just wipe a world's population out to take their food if they need to maintain their battle fleet in the now.

Then maybe the Resistance could destroy more than one agricultural center. And if destroying one agricultural center weakens that particular sector of First Order space that gives the Resistance a weaker target to attack, which would further weaken and destabilize that sector.

This is something they should have been doing before. But as established despite 30 years of preparation, the resistance didn't bother to survey the FO's base of operations at all. So who knows how well defended they are. Remember that "key force" Poe lost could about take on one ship when it doesn't defend itself properly.

Where does it state that the First Order was building up for the past thirty years? Where does it state that the Resistance, which is a separate entity from the Republic, has been around for thirty years? Where does it state that people knew about the First Order for thirty years?
How do you know that the Resistance has not surveyed First Order facilities? How do you know that they have not been raiding First Order facilities for years?
Those ships that Poe lost did just fine against the Dreadnought itself, but they were ravaged by the hundreds, if not thousands, of TIE fighters that the Dreadnought carried. Other First Order facilities might not have as many TIE fighters on site.

See the "gritty realism" possibility for the next movie. I beat you to that punch and Poe losing those ships doesn't have an affect on the strategy in that case.

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

So you are saying that Poe, by virtue of his very existence, can turn a dip-shit, near-suicidal idea into a valid military tactic? What is it about Poe that makes him capable of such feats?

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

"She didn't tell me what she was planning." and "She didn't want to use my super awesome plan that relied on dozens of variables and could easily have failed several steps along the way." are not valid reasons for mutinying. They would most likely be shot, jettisoned into space or imprisoned for the rest of their lives with that excuse.

twistedmic:

crimson5pheonix:

Oh is that what's happening? Is the remainder of the Republic fleet going to come over the space ridge with ride of the Valkyries playing? It won't matter, they were already inferior to the FO fleet before they were mostly wiped out.

I don't know if the remaining Republic fleet will show up in the next movie, I'm just stating a reason why they have not shown up in The Last Jedi. So, according to you the Republic fleet is worthless because they were heavily damaged by a surprise attack, right? Does that mean that the U.S. fleet was worthless during WWII because they were nearly wiped out by the Japanese surprise attack?

The US fleet wasn't? The Japanese didn't even hit the aircraft carriers, which were it's ability to project is power across the Pacific. They pulled off a strong alpha strike, but it didn't actually stop the US from acting.

Meanwhile, the Republic basically doesn't exist anymore.

The FO capital ships (like the one destroyed) have medical facilities, easily enough to temporarily reinforce a damaged or destroyed base. Not to mention that's unusually underhanded for the good guys to do, but honestly I would love to see heroes play dirty pool like that.

That doesn't change the fact that the First Order will have to pull their resources away from their normal positions, which would given the Resistance a weaker front to attack.

With what? The ~30 attack craft that Poe had? How weak does the front have to be for them to win a battle?

Funnily enough the agriculture thing was done in an anime for basically the same reason, but I'm not sure it'd be as effective against the FO. For one destroying one agricultural center isn't a very big dent when FTL exists, second the FO won't play games and will just wipe a world's population out to take their food if they need to maintain their battle fleet in the now.

Then maybe the Resistance could destroy more than one agricultural center. And if destroying one agricultural center weakens that particular sector of First Order space that gives the Resistance a weaker target to attack, which would further weaken and destabilize that sector.

Once again, with what? They only have 30 attack craft as their key combat force.

This is something they should have been doing before. But as established despite 30 years of preparation, the resistance didn't bother to survey the FO's base of operations at all. So who knows how well defended they are. Remember that "key force" Poe lost could about take on one ship when it doesn't defend itself properly.

Where does it state that the First Order was building up for the past thirty years? Where does it state that the Resistance, which is a separate entity from the Republic, has been around for thirty years? Where does it state that people knew about the First Order for thirty years?
How do you know that the Resistance has not surveyed First Order facilities? How do you know that they have not been raiding First Order facilities for years?
Those ships that Poe lost did just fine against the Dreadnought itself, but they were ravaged by the hundreds, if not thousands, of TIE fighters that the Dreadnought carried. Other First Order facilities might not have as many TIE fighters on site.

It's all in EU stuff. It's all canon stuff from comic books and the like. Hawki and I have been referring to it before. The short answer is that both the Republic and the resistance have been aware of the FO since they started up. The Republic thought they were idiots who weren't going to do anything while the resistance treated them as a threat and built up their forces to fend them off.

That went well.

See the "gritty realism" possibility for the next movie. I beat you to that punch and Poe losing those ships doesn't have an affect on the strategy in that case.

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Too bad Holdo didn't explain her plan beforehand and just expected the crew to have no questions about how they were going to survive. Woops.

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

Ah, if but they were launching that flanking maneuver. Instead Poe took something they had no plans to take at the time. Because thinking a handful of fighters and bombers could take a capital ship would be a stupid thought if it weren't Poe at the front.

So you are saying that Poe, by virtue of his very existence, can turn a dip-shit, near-suicidal idea into a valid military tactic? What is it about Poe that makes him capable of such feats?

Hot blooded heroics. That plan shouldn't have worked because the point defense turrets should have wiped out the attack before they got close. But Poe took them out by himself without taking a hit. By the time the dreadnought realized what was happening, it was too late to scramble the TIE fighters.

Maintaining troop morale is also a job of a commanding officer. Like I said in another post, whatever punishment Poe and the rest of the mutineers would get in a court martial, they would also investigate the commanding officer to see why they mutinied.

"She didn't tell me what she was planning." and "She didn't want to use my super awesome plan that relied on dozens of variables and could easily have failed several steps along the way." are not valid reasons for mutinying. They would most likely be shot, jettisoned into space or imprisoned for the rest of their lives with that excuse.

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

Samtemdo8:
I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

Squilookle:
I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

It's that you presume to speak for everyone that's the problem. I already know, there are people reading this and agreeing with me. It is, in fact, divisive. And I'm just pointing out that some of the reasoning in this movie makes no sense, even by SW standards.

crimson5pheonix:

Squilookle:
I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

It's that you presume to speak for everyone that's the problem. I already know, there are people reading this and agreeing with me. It is, in fact, divisive. And I'm just pointing out that some of the reasoning in this movie makes no sense, even by SW standards.

Then I suggest you urge those who agree with you to actually speak up- because as it stands your argument looks as flimsy as the proverbial snowball in hell.

Squilookle:

crimson5pheonix:

Squilookle:
I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

It's that you presume to speak for everyone that's the problem. I already know, there are people reading this and agreeing with me. It is, in fact, divisive. And I'm just pointing out that some of the reasoning in this movie makes no sense, even by SW standards.

Then I suggest you urge those who agree with you to actually speak up- because as it stands your argument looks as flimsy as the proverbial snowball in hell.

They've been reminding me of stuff I either forgot because it's been a while since I've seen the movie, or the kind of nerds who know too much.

Like that Holdo being a vice-admiral is a product of nepotism.

Some valid points.

crimson5pheonix:

Funnily enough I looked up Holdo's backstory as part of this thread and she's not a military commander. I mean, she is, but she kinda just walked into the resistance and was given a vice-admiral position. By the looks of it for being Leia's friend back in the day. Not that she was part of the rebellion, she was just Leia's friend.

One might note the Rebellion / Resistance have a great deal of prior form at that:

- "Hi, I've just met this smuggler!"
- "Great - make him a general, he can lead our mission-critical assault on the Endor moonbase"

Whatever her non-military background, Holdo's military career evidently includes a very significant success at some point - it's referenced by Poe himself in the film.

But in any case, explaining your reasoning for your daring plan that's going to determine the fates of all your people is hardly "assuaging a fragile ego". That plan was going to determine if they were going to live or die, I'd want to know why you think it's a good idea.

Holdo is an admiral (or at minimum acting admiral). Poe is how many ranks below, precisely? Four, maybe? What the hell business does he have demanding answers from her? If it were the modern US army, what do you think an army general would say to a Lt. Col. who busted into his office demanding to know what his plans were? Especially after that Lt. Col. just got his entire battalion massacred by refusing to follow orders.

Squilookle:
I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

Samtemdo8:
I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

But it spawned this divisive outburst and created dozens of videos criticizing it and created hotly debated discussion. Exactly as I predicted.

Samtemdo8:

Squilookle:
I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

Samtemdo8:
I just wanted to say that I fucking called it, I was calling it that Disney's Star wars movies will cause the same negative backlash the Prequels did, but now in this era of the internet.

I swear to you this situation would happen exactly as it is now if the prequels first came out as they are in the present day.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

But it spawned this divisive outburst and created dozens of videos criticizing it and created hotly debated discussion. Exactly as I predicted.

In that case congratulations. But that isn't what happened when the Prequels came out.

There was barely any debate about whether they were good or not. Most of the debate was about to which level exactly they sucked.

Squilookle:

Samtemdo8:

Squilookle:
I'm just the outside observer here, Crimson. Sorry to say it, but you're not convincing anyone. I'm just letting you know this so that you can see how far down the rabbit hole you're falling before it's too late.

Hahaha, no.

This debate has erupted from very divided opinions on a very divisive film. The prequels got negative backlash from pretty much everyone. And that's because the prequels sucked.

But it spawned this divisive outburst and created dozens of videos criticizing it and created hotly debated discussion. Exactly as I predicted.

In that case congratulations. But that isn't what happened when the Prequels came out.

There was barely any debate about whether they were good or not. Most of the debate was about to which level exactly they sucked.

I was just unimpressed with the movie, because as I said I think the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

But so far people defending The Last Jedi are like me defending Batman v Superman awhile back.

Samtemdo8:
the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Agema:

crimson5pheonix:

Funnily enough I looked up Holdo's backstory as part of this thread and she's not a military commander. I mean, she is, but she kinda just walked into the resistance and was given a vice-admiral position. By the looks of it for being Leia's friend back in the day. Not that she was part of the rebellion, she was just Leia's friend.

One might note the Rebellion / Resistance have a great deal of prior form at that:

- "Hi, I've just met this smuggler!"
- "Great - make him a general, he can lead our mission-critical assault on the Endor moonbase"

Whatever her non-military background, Holdo's military career evidently includes a very significant success at some point - it's referenced by Poe himself in the film.

You know what, fair. This is just the first time (on screen) where it doesn't work out.

But in any case, explaining your reasoning for your daring plan that's going to determine the fates of all your people is hardly "assuaging a fragile ego". That plan was going to determine if they were going to live or die, I'd want to know why you think it's a good idea.

Holdo is an admiral (or at minimum acting admiral). Poe is how many ranks below, precisely? Four, maybe? What the hell business does he have demanding answers from her? If it were the modern US army, what do you think an army general would say to a Lt. Col. who busted into his office demanding to know what his plans were? Especially after that Lt. Col. just got his entire battalion massacred by refusing to follow orders.

Depends. But I will say that current tactical doctrine is to share your plans with at least your officers. The "your job is to follow orders, not question them" line of thinking stopped by WWII (on top of being something villains say) because troops generally execute your orders better when they understand why they're doing what they're doing, they can still execute your plan if you get taken out, and it prevents troops from taking actions that don't help in the plan or even run counter to it (hint hint on that last one).

Not to mention "shut up and follow your orders" is a pretty fascist thing to say for the resistance.

Adam Jensen:

Samtemdo8:
the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Indeed.

IMO SWTOR was the zenith in just overall presentation to how Star Wars should be.

Adam Jensen:

Samtemdo8:
the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Am I the only one glad they got rid of the old EU?

No offense, but I got really turned off by a lot of problems in the later EU stuff.

Natemans:

Adam Jensen:

Samtemdo8:
the old Expanded Universe had better stuff then the official movies.

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Am I the only one glad they got rid of the old EU?

Mainly I'm glad they stopped the never-ending cycle of the novels trying to fix the problems caused by the previous set of novels, only to create even more problems.

I'm also glad everything that everything Karen Traviss did with the Mandalorians got tossed in the trash.

TLJ is an aggravating film.
But what pulled me out of the film permanently was after Kylo blows up the hangar bay and his flight mates blow up the bridge. Three fighters have the Raddus dead to rights and then they are called back for... Reasons.

I thought I had misheard initially (What could they possibly need cover for when there is no air support and they're blowing holes in the biggest ship with only fighters.) But rewatching it only makes it worse. 'Can't cover you' is literally the only reason Hux gives. And then there are far more ships than I thought there were- I count at least 6 star destroyers... and then reading wookepedia, there are apparently two wings of fighters in those things which is +800 fighters, not counting that capital ship. The air support is gone, three fighters punched through the shields to take out the bridge, why wouldn't you release your fighters? The film leans heavily on WWII tactics anyways... just do Battle of Midway and the carriers need never meet.

And then that is followed by Space Leia and then this cockamamie plan to leave, go to another planet, and then they are so confident that things will be exactly like they left that this plan actually makes sense. That was the final straw where I was no longer engaged in the Secondary World. The spell of the story was broken and I couldn't get back into it no matter how I tried.

Neither Finn/ Rose's plan nor Huldo's plan makes much sense. Hyperspace trackers is a really bad idea to introduce into a series where they want to keep rebooting the Rebel storyline. Rebels are dead now for they can never hit and run again. And on my first watch, I missed some of the quick dialogue and assumed only Snoke's ship had a tracker, but turns out they all do, so everything about Finn/ Rose's plan seems crazy and bound to fail. It's also not so obvious why only one tracker at a time would be used. They handwaved it, but I wasn't buying what they were selling. Why in the world would you not have a redundancy and why in the world can a mechanic and janitor just spitball not only the existence of experimental technology, but how it works and how to stop it... and they're right. Battlestar Galatica did this plot much better. And had better female characters to boot, just in that first episode alone. You felt that countdown, you understood the logic of how they sussed out how they were getting tracked. People just know stuff. And nothing that they know (and are correct) really follows from the information given on screen, given there are quite a few other possibilities. Guess the characters were reading the script?

Huldo's makes even less sense. Because they are in SPACE. At what point in the chase do the Imperials, sipping their tea and playing poker, ask themselves. Hey that planet, that only planet that's coming up for last ten hours. They can't jump because they don't have fuel. What are the chances they might go there? How about three of our Star Destroyers (that are doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) pop on ahead and wait. Just in case. And then it turns out they have decloak scanners then entire time. But they weren't going to turn them on unless convinced by a prisoner. Because Reasons. Such a stupid way to introduce and immediately counteract technology. What is the point of a cloaking device if you can just run a decloak scan? And the Empire's ships just have them. No big deal or anything.

And then DJ doesn't make a lick of sense, when you rewatch the film. See, Han's character makes sense on a rewatch because it turns out as mercenary as he is, he's a rogue with a heart of gold. So although Luke bribes him with money to fetch Leia, after you see the end of Episode IV, his actions make even more sense because now you know he's more than a mercenary.

DJ turns out to be an opportunist. True neutral. He reveals this idea on the ship ride over- everyone's fighting, and some people make a lot of money (Barring the part where one side keeps making planet destroying weapons, but okay buddy. Both sides are basically the same. Sure.) But then they caught and he betrays them, but he's not broken up about it at all. It's just business. So now you go back. He's not a rogue with the heart of gold. He's an opportunist looking for good money. So why the heck does he voluntarily sneak into the most heavily guarded flying fortress in the galaxy? Han had the great excuse of getting trapped against his will and at the very least needed to get out. Rescuing Leia is only a small blip in the much bigger mess. But DJ's out. And Finn and Rose literally can offer him no downpayment. And. Unless DJ has not been watching the news, he ought to know the Empire's basically won and the Rebels are done. Why would an opportunist, just looking for money go on what 'sounds more like a suicide mission". After all "What good is a reward if you ain't around to use it." Is there no where else in the galaxy DJ couldn't make a quick buck? Seems like he could get in and out of the Casino Planet jail at whim and was just conveniently hanging around long enough for the 'heroes' who can't park a car without getting towed linked up with him. Was there no easy money to be had?

Everything about the central cruiser is so contrived to be exactly so where they put their villains on a treadmill for nearly the entire film and just leave them there, waiting for fuel to run out. Fighter patrols can be seen flying around when pursuing the Raddus, but not when attacking the Rebel base initially, because... Reasons. Yes, they lampshaded it. But it still doesn't solve the problem. Both Rebels and Empire were so stupid in their decision making that I hated all sides. Like, I really want the Resistance to just die, and be forgotten and start all over again. Clearly, the rest of the galaxy thinks the same way.

Like, what happened? The Rebels blew up Death Star III, and a Fleet Killer, and the Capital of the new Empire (seriously, the encylopedia entry on Snoke's ship is more exciting than the movie- criminally underutilized for such a cool concept. Just another giant ship to blow up for diminishing returns)... and yet no one in the entire galaxy is galvanized into action? What more can the Rebels do? Why does the galaxy suck so much? When civilian populations are attacked, people are galvanized into action (think the London Blitz), but this galaxy lays over and surrenders after their capital is destroyed. The galaxy didn't care about the Rebels and therefore I didn't care about them either. Why would Luke's brief lightshow be any more of a spark, considering hardly anyone saw it, and delaying a force for a few minutes is hardly as impressive as blowing up a Death Star, unless you happened to have filmed it. Not to mention, it's completely inconsistent with all the lionization of the everyman and the downgrade of the Skywalkers... but it turns out nothing but a Skywalker will inspire a galaxy. So which is it?

And then there's that stupid, stupid crash scene with Finn (poor guy, they gave him nothing to do for the entire film. They did him dirty.) I'm always very cognizant of the situationally inappropriate slow motion kiss with a near by ticking time bomb, but this one was painful. Why aren't those giant walkers shooting at them? I thought in theatres on my first watch. How are you having a romantic moment when that lazer is very likely killing people on the other side (not so obvious that anyone would survive that beam from their current perspective.) And why is Finn supposed to be learning this lesson of fighting for what he loves, when he was the one that was trying to save Rey from getting ambushed, and Rose called him the coward for his troubles? And this anti-sacrifice theme is completely inconsistent with Huldo's sacrifice on one side, and Luke's on the other. Which is it movie? Because your theme is sandwiched between two very visual contradictions and it's not so obvious that Finn was even doing his suicide run for the reasons that she said. Unless she can mindread through a ship, he might very well be doing it for love, or whatever. Very odd distinction regardless.)

I'll stop. But the story structure is just nonsense and a Frankenstein plot of Empire and Jedi. And people call it original. Hardly.

Not to mention "shut up and follow your orders" is a pretty fascist thing to say for the resistance.

That's the weird thing. Movie's have shorthands to give you a sense of secondary characters in a hurry. Everything about Huldo reads as the incompetent commander that says 'follow orders, or else'. The one that pulls the detective off the case. She's the Roger Dooley of Agent Carter. Or the WWI generals 'over the top' to let hundreds of thousands die. She reads as the anti-Auftragstaktik, all centralized command, all the time and condescending at that. And then the film turns around and does a gotcha! She's competent all along! And, it's like, sure. You 'got' me. Because you created an incoherent character that does a Face-Heel turn at random. If you say a bunch of things and then do something the exact opposite, I guess you will always 'get' me. But it's cheap. And it's not good storytelling. And then the only reason her plan is any 'good' is because the baddies are just as stupid. But they have to be idiots in order to get into a very particular scenario where we're stuck in the world's slowest car chase, where the big plan is to run them out of fuel. 18 hours later. Neat. Contrivance after contrivance. Seriously, the military on both sides are idiots and I hate all sides.

Most of the old EU could burn in a dumpster fire. But I miss my Thrawn and my Garm bel Iblis, actual competent commanders. RIP Ackbar. They did you dirty too. May they resurrect Lando again just to show him as a washed up failure like the others. And then he dies for nothing too.

crimson i 100% agree with you. Holdo is a horrible leader.

Just think of this, lets say you are on the ship, you see you other ships getting destroy, morale is low, command is down, the simbol of the resistance in the medbay, there is no hope in sight, your commanding officer doest say shit about what to do, and whats worse reprimands they only guy that has actually done something, that actually has strike 2 of the big victories for the "resistance" (remember Poe is the one that destroy star killer base)
Yeah im joining the fucking mutiny, if i die at least i can have a say or something.

Also Poe made the right call with the starship, there is not an argument there. Specially if you want to bring over WWII connotations into this.

One more thing, the only reason Hold plan actually works, is because the evil guys are idiots. And decided to play with the rebels (also we dont actually know if it would have been sucessfull, they might have run a system scan just in case and puff there goes holdo "brilliant" plan

crimson5pheonix:

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Too bad Holdo didn't explain her plan beforehand and just expected the crew to have no questions about how they were going to survive. Woops.

The command staff and relevant crew of the fleet knew the plan. Poe =/= "the crew".

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Hot blooded heroics. That plan shouldn't have worked because the point defense turrets should have wiped out the attack before they got close. But Poe took them out by himself without taking a hit. By the time the dreadnought realized what was happening, it was too late to scramble the TIE fighters.

Uh, Poe taking a hit is what caused a delay in launching the bombing run, which led to the Resistance fighters getting overwhelmed by TIEs. You watched the movie, right?

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

Wait, what?

Trooper924:

Natemans:

Adam Jensen:

Yup, and even though I might get crucified for this, I think it had better stuff than even the original trilogy.

So fuck Disney.

Am I the only one glad they got rid of the old EU?

Mainly I'm glad they stopped the never-ending cycle of the novels trying to fix the problems caused by the previous set of novels, only to create even more problems.

I'm also glad everything that everything Karen Traviss did with the Mandalorians got tossed in the trash.

Yeah, Karen Traviss really loved Mandalorians. It was nuts.

Falling:
TLJ is an aggravating film.
But what pulled me out of the film permanently was after Kylo blows up the hangar bay and his flight mates blow up the bridge. Three fighters have the Raddus dead to rights and then they are called back for... Reasons.

I thought I had misheard initially (What could they possibly need cover for when there is no air support and they're blowing holes in the biggest ship with only fighters.) But rewatching it only makes it worse. 'Can't cover you' is literally the only reason Hux gives. And then there are far more ships than I thought there were- I count at least 6 star destroyers... and then reading wookepedia, there are apparently two wings of fighters in those things which is +800 fighters, not counting that capital ship. The air support is gone, three fighters punched through the shields to take out the bridge, why wouldn't you release your fighters? The film leans heavily on WWII tactics anyways... just do Battle of Midway and the carriers need never meet.

It's "the rules", and fascists get particular about their rules. Also, be wary about taking what wookiepedia says at face value. The Force Unleashed is canon in those parts, jumping puzzles included.

And then it turns out they have decloak scanners then entire time. But they weren't going to turn them on unless convinced by a prisoner. Because Reasons. Such a stupid way to introduce and immediately counteract technology. What is the point of a cloaking device if you can just run a decloak scan? And the Empire's ships just have them. No big deal or anything.

"Pfft, electronic warfare that fails when the bad guys are clued in on their specific characteristics? How unrealistic"

Everything about the central cruiser is so contrived to be exactly so where they put their villains on a treadmill for nearly the entire film and just leave them there, waiting for fuel to run out. Fighter patrols can be seen flying around when pursuing the Raddus, but not when attacking the Rebel base initially, because... Reasons. Yes, they lampshaded it. But it still doesn't solve the problem. Both Rebels and Empire were so stupid in their decision making that I hated all sides. Like, I really want the Resistance to just die, and be forgotten and start all over again. Clearly, the rest of the galaxy thinks the same way.

Why waste a lot of fuel and risk making micro-jumps when you've got them on the ropes and can sadistically draw out their mental torture? Think like a neo-nazi.

Like, what happened? The Rebels blew up Death Star III, and a Fleet Killer, and the Capital of the new Empire (seriously, the encylopedia entry on Snoke's ship is more exciting than the movie- criminally underutilized for such a cool concept. Just another giant ship to blow up for diminishing returns)... and yet no one in the entire galaxy is galvanized into action? What more can the Rebels do? Why does the galaxy suck so much? When civilian populations are attacked, people are galvanized into action (think the London Blitz), but this galaxy lays over and surrenders after their capital is destroyed. The galaxy didn't care about the Rebels and therefore I didn't care about them either. Why would Luke's brief lightshow be any more of a spark, considering hardly anyone saw it, and delaying a force for a few minutes is hardly as impressive as blowing up a Death Star, unless you happened to have filmed it. Not to mention, it's completely inconsistent with all the lionization of the everyman and the downgrade of the Skywalkers... but it turns out nothing but a Skywalker will inspire a galaxy. So which is it?

Doolittle's raid caused minimal damage but caused a massive amount of morale damage. The utter eradication of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fundamentally changed the nature of politics and warfare.

And then there's that stupid, stupid crash scene with Finn (poor guy, they gave him nothing to do for the entire film. They did him dirty.) I'm always very cognizant of the situationally inappropriate slow motion kiss with a near by ticking time bomb, but this one was painful. Why aren't those giant walkers shooting at them? I thought in theatres on my first watch. How are you having a romantic moment when that lazer is very likely killing people on the other side (not so obvious that anyone would survive that beam from their current perspective.) And why is Finn supposed to be learning this lesson of fighting for what he loves, when he was the one that was trying to save Rey from getting ambushed, and Rose called him the coward for his troubles? And this anti-sacrifice theme is completely inconsistent with Huldo's sacrifice on one side, and Luke's on the other. Which is it movie? Because your theme is sandwiched between two very visual contradictions and it's not so obvious that Finn was even doing his suicide run for the reasons that she said. Unless she can mindread through a ship, he might very well be doing it for love, or whatever. Very odd distinction regardless.)

This one's easy. Holdo and Luke's sacrifice saved people. Directly. (Incidently, if Yoda's any indication, "being dead" is merely inconvenient for a Jedi Master when the chips are down)

Finn's sacrifice wouldn't have changed literally anything. They'd still be trapped, they'd just bring another laser down, and nobody was coming to the rescue. It'd play decently good as propaganda, but it doesn't hold a candle to Luke going Trickster God and punking the entire First Order.

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

Poe throwing a temper tantrum and staging a short-lived mutiny led directly to hundreds of Resistance members being killed. Had he obeyed orders and not bet the future of the Resistance on a Hail Mary plan with an exceedingly slim chance of success then Holdo's plan would have succeeded. The First Order did not know to look for a bunch of unarmed, unshielded transports hiding behind the Raddus

Too bad Holdo didn't explain her plan beforehand and just expected the crew to have no questions about how they were going to survive. Woops.

The command staff and relevant crew of the fleet knew the plan. Poe =/= "the crew"

Once again, not telling your crew is, on top of being villain coding in a story, an antiquated military leadership doctrine that was done away with for exactly the reasons that happen in the movie.

As a side note, is there anyone left between Poe and the admiralty? Did the demotion even accomplish anything? I legit don't know, but I don't remember Holdo ever conferring with other people of rank.

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Possibly, but he still accomplished a good tactical goal.

Hot blooded heroics. That plan shouldn't have worked because the point defense turrets should have wiped out the attack before they got close. But Poe took them out by himself without taking a hit. By the time the dreadnought realized what was happening, it was too late to scramble the TIE fighters.

Uh, Poe taking a hit is what caused a delay in launching the bombing run, which led to the Resistance fighters getting overwhelmed by TIEs. You watched the movie, right?

I have, admittedly, slept since I've seen the movie. But he wasn't shot down, which is the important part. That was not a mission for a single person.

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

Wait, what?

Exactly that. From Poe's position, Holdo's plan looked suicidal.

@altnameJg
What do you mean, 'it's the rules'? Hux is impatient that he cannot kill cruiser quick enough (what's the point of all this weaponry, if we can't kill them).

I'm wary of wookepedia.

Note my initial reaction, was in the moment, first time watching. I only started searching around in case to see if things held up, if someone threw out 'But in the books in makes sense.' It makes less sense. But never mind the specific number. There's a whole of those fighters flying around on patrol during that chase. The movie shows us that, plus we've seen a hangar of these things in Force Awakens. Based on what 3 fighters did, even if they could only muster 10 times that amount, the Rebel would be shredded, relying only upon what is shown on screen.

re: electronic warfare- this is the first time cloaked ships have been used to solve a plot problem. The results were underwhelming at best, considering it can be countered with a push of a button. It cannot be a good plan, it it relies upon your enemy being lazy.

Why waste a lot of fuel and risk making micro-jumps when you've got them on the ropes and can sadistically draw out their mental torture? Think like a neo-nazi.

Lightning War? Knock 'em out hard and fast? It's not thinking like a Nazi. It's not thinking at all.

Again, pay attention to Hux's emotional state. He is very clearly impatient that he cannot destroy them immediately. It also makes the universe seem very small indeed, if the Emperor and all his chief minions have the time to kick back into cruise control and that's that. Does the Empire strike you as an organization that's concerned about resource consumption? They lost a Death Star and within 24 hours they've conquered the entire Republic. Speed seems to be the thing here.

Doolittle's raid caused minimal damage but caused a massive amount of morale damage. The utter eradication of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fundamentally changed the nature of politics and warfare.

End of the war bombs is not the same thing as an opening salvo. Not only that, but for the US, it's 'there's a lot more where those came from'. Compared to the not-Rebels- another horrific genocide has occured, but we destroyed their super weapon. Again. It was pretty simple actually. Follow us and we will lead you to victory! Once the Death Star is off the table, all the damage and non of the threat exist. That's a very good cause to go after the SoB's. And a pretty good motivator to get a move on it soon, before they can make another one.

Well, the Yoda thing brings up another thing- interaction in the physical realm with force lightning opens up huge plot holes- it's like they just throw things at the wall, with no idea on what extrapolates from the powers they put in place. Beware of creating Time Turners without considering the consequences.

Finn's sacrifice could have (if the director, so wanted) knocked out a laser, maybe buying more time. The intention was to save people. That no one was coming, is the fault of the director for making the Rebels so uninspiring that no on in the galaxy will come to their rescue. More importantly, it would complete his character arc. He started as a cowardly deserter, running away and not willing to stand and fight. They clearly had no story ideas for his character development because they iced him on a fetch quest that went absolutely no where. So if he ends his story in a heroic self-sacrifice, where he saves his fellow Rebels and dies rather than running, his circle is complete. It would be a tragic, yet heroic end where the little guy saves the day (consistent with theme) rather than the Jedi Master of the Skywalker legacy (let the past die and all that).

Not much of Trickster God punk, when Luke died. Joke's on Luke. And Kylo gets the last laugh. Luke was a coward, refused to clean up his mistakes and left the rest of the galaxy to solve his problem, while he gets to peace out. Though maybe he and Yoda can spend the rest of their days Force zapping Kylo. Amusing, I guess. He can do the Trickster, see you around, but live for the next film- maybe Ascendancy at the end of the 9th. Or he can come in person and die for the others. But they tried to have their cake and eat it too. And it doesn't work. It's very unsatisfying. Two movies of build up, and he does one flashy move and dies of a heart attack anyways. Underwhelming to say the least.

crimson5pheonix:

Once again, not telling your crew is, on top of being villain coding in a story, an antiquated military leadership doctrine that was done away with for exactly the reasons that happen in the movie.

And again, Poe =/= "the crew". Hell, given the visceral reaction Poe had when he saw the transports being fueled up, I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have tried to pull a mutiny if he'd known the plan from the start. He certainly never passed on the idea that the FO could track them through hyperspace.

As a side note, is there anyone left between Poe and the admiralty? Did the demotion even accomplish anything? I legit don't know, but I don't remember Holdo ever conferring with other people of rank.

For the most part, Holdo isn't a viewpoint character. We don't get to see most of her interactions.

But in any case, that doesn't change the fact that Leia and Holdo overreacted in the first place to losing the fighters and bombers.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Possibly, but he still accomplished a good tactical goal.[/quote]Questionable, especially considering losses. Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up. I'd be downright shocked if that ship wasn't at least as powerful as a Dreadnought. Fascists don't let their subordinates have bigger toys.

No, "she tried to kill us all and wouldn't tell us why" is a pretty good reason to be wary of such a commander.

Wait, what?

Exactly that. From Poe's position, Holdo's plan looked suicidal.

Poe thought that running away from an overwhelmingly superior military force was cowardice. A couple more Poe plans and he'd be the only member of the Resistance.

Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up

This is actually another flaw in the story telling. They never once SHOW us why Poe's actions were bad. They just tell us. Never once did they have a 'sure would be nice to have those bombers right about now' moment. Not once. In fact, all those bombers seemed about useless as the only plan was to abandon ship and use the transports.

Where were they going to turn in fight? Not to mention, for some idiotic reason (plot contrivance again), there was no fighter screen at the very beginning and those bombers are paper airplanes and slow as pigs. I thought they were really cool looking up until they all got destroyed very easily. And then I couldn't think of why they would ever replace the B-wing or even the Y-wing as bombers. They just can't get into a fight unless there are literally no enemies.

In the most ideal condition possible (no turrets, and stupidly delayed fighters), they could still only just barely get one bomber to drop its load. For the rest of the movie, there are TIE fighters buzzing around all over the place on patrol. From what we've seen on the screen, they would not have a snowball's chance in hell to get close to anything remotely useful.

The only thing they show us is that the Dreadnought was about to open fire, except it got destroyed right it could get off a shot. So the only thing the film shows us, is that the Raddus should be dead. But Poe saved the Raddus and spends the rest of the movie as person non grata for his troubles. They should all be dead. But he's the bad guy, I guess.

Believe me, I'm tired of the maverick vs stuffy generals storyline. I love Bridge too Far with all the generals. I was annoyed that Rogue One had a completely inert command staff for the Rebels with no plan, and it's just the maverick that saves the day. I'm ready for a story to be about the maverick being wrong and generals right. So if they throw a person like me off, they're doing it very wrong indeed, as I'm looking forward to this sort of plot. I'm the target audience for this sort of plot line. But all they SHOW is classic maverick saves the day and then they spend the rest of the film TELLING us, he was wrong. Film is a visual medium. They're doing it wrong this way. Again. Battlestar Galatica did it first and better. (Starbuck vs Adama for one or Colonel Tigh vs anyone)

sonofliber:
crimson i 100% agree with you. Holdo is a horrible leader.

Just think of this, lets say you are on the ship, you see you other ships getting destroy, morale is low, command is down, the simbol of the resistance in the medbay, there is no hope in sight, your commanding officer doest say shit about what to do, and whats worse reprimands they only guy that has actually done something, that actually has strike 2 of the big victories for the "resistance" (remember Poe is the one that destroy star killer base)
Yeah im joining the fucking mutiny, if i die at least i can have a say or something.

Also Poe made the right call with the starship, there is not an argument there. Specially if you want to bring over WWII connotations into this.

Exactly. Holdo did everything possible to give Poe every reason both rational and irrational to do everything he does in the movie, thus failing as a leader. Not to the extent of failure as the movie's core theme either, which would be doing something that sounds like it could work and it failing, but to the point that one wonders how the hell Holdo ever managed to get anywhere past private not to mention Vice-Admiral. Holdo goes out of her way to antagonize and dismiss Poe every time they talk, she refuses to explain the plan or even that there IS a plan, (the latter of which she should have announced to the entire Resistance fleet the moment she took command) when Poe finally does manage to get Holdo to take 5 seconds to explain the plan she only says some vague sounding nonsense that could mean anything, and finally when Poe gets a glimpse on part of the plan without the whole she STILL refuses to explain what it is. The end result of this is Resistance members are deserting in droves so much they have to have someone guarding the escape pods to tazer anyone that tries to run, Poe makes his own plan which he doesn't tell Holdo about since he has been given absolutely no reason to which screws up Holdo's actual plan, and eventually everybody who has stayed behind mutinies. Any one of these things if she had survived would be in themselves grounds to have Holdo stripped of her rank not to mention all three of them.

Holdo's job as a leader, scratch that, the core point of a leader is to manage morale, simply telling Poe and the rest of the Resistance that there was a plan of any sort even wouldn't be babying Poe or the other redshirts, it would be the bare minimum a leader is supposed to do.

The only thing that anyone can honestly even fault Poe for the whole is the Dreadnought, and even that would be considered a smashing victory for the Resistance by any reasonable metric. Everything else falls on Finn and Rose screwing up which Poe couldn't possibly have predicted, even broadcasting that message for DJ to overhear since he didn't know DJ was there and had no reason to think anyone who couldn't be trusted would be, and again, it's the end result of Holdo's ineptitude at command.

One more thing, the only reason Hold plan actually works, is because the evil guys are idiots. And decided to play with the rebels (also we dont actually know if it would have been sucessfull, they might have run a system scan just in case and puff there goes holdo "brilliant" plan

Hell, forget about running a scan, all the First Order needed was some no name grunt with binoculars looking out a window watching the Resistance ships, which there should have been as a matter of course just to watch for anything they might be doing. The transports were only cloaked from electronic detection, not visible detection; when your plan can be foiled by the enemy looking out the window it's a terrible plan. Of course, this comes back to the bad guys being idiots, like pretty much every bad guy in the history of fiction always is because otherwise the bad guys would win, every Bond villain ever for example.

Yeah. But this Empire is a special kind of idiot.
And so are the Rebels.

Bond villains have a penchant for elaborate executions, but there's usually something that demonstrates their competence. If the only reason you have a plot is if everybody is an idiot, it's bad a plot. You can forgive some hubris in a moment of triumph, but it's not very fun watching incompetence at every turn... unless it's supposed to be a comedy.

Falling:
@altnameJg
What do you mean, 'it's the rules'? Hux is impatient that he cannot kill cruiser quick enough (what's the point of all this weaponry, if we can't kill them).

He's not in command, Snoke is.

Note my initial reaction, was in the moment, first time watching. I only started searching around in case to see if things held up, if someone threw out 'But in the books in makes sense.' It makes less sense. But never mind the specific number. There's a whole of those fighters flying around on patrol during that chase. The movie shows us that, plus we've seen a hangar of these things in Force Awakens. Based on what 3 fighters did, even if they could only muster 10 times that amount, the Rebel would be shredded, relying only upon what is shown on screen.

And I'm certain Hux would love to give Ren every chance in the galaxy to get his ass blown up, but that's against the rules. The Resistance just materialized a bomber fleet out of nowhere to take down a dreadnought, you think Snoke's gonna risk leavinging his flagship with a reduced CAP and assume the Resistance doesn't have a second one? Besides, it's clear Poe Dameron hasn't taken the field. Until you know where that bastard is, for sure, you don't take risks. We know he's been renederd impotent, but they don't.

Everybody makes mistakes.

re: electronic warfare- this is the first time cloaked ships have been used to solve a plot problem. The results were underwhelming at best, considering it can be countered with a push of a button. It cannot be a good plan, it it relies upon your enemy being lazy.

"What's the point of frequency-shifting if the enemy can just listen in if they know your frequency?"
Look, sensors is Star Wars have always sucked all kinds of ass.

Why waste a lot of fuel and risk making micro-jumps when you've got them on the ropes and can sadistically draw out their mental torture? Think like a neo-nazi.

Lightning War? Knock 'em out hard and fast? It's not thinking like a Nazi. It's not thinking at all.

Nazis get over-cautious once you give them a bloody nose. That's why punching a Nazi pays dividends.

Again, pay attention to Hux's emotional state. He is very clearly impatient that he cannot destroy them immediately. It also makes the universe seem very small indeed, if the Emperor and all his chief minions have the time to kick back into cruise control and that's that. Does the Empire strike you as an organization that's concerned about resource consumption? They lost a Death Star and within 24 hours they've conquered the entire Republic. Speed seems to be the thing here.

Blitzes only work until they're blunted. If the FO is like the Nazis, their logistical chain is a slow nightmare. So don't waste hyperspace fuel if you don't need to.

Besides, Hux might've been impatient, but he's also, a craven, cowardly bully who wasn't in command.

Doolittle's raid caused minimal damage but caused a massive amount of morale damage. The utter eradication of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fundamentally changed the nature of politics and warfare.

End of the war bombs is not the same thing as an opening salvo. Not only that, but for the US, it's 'there's a lot more where those came from'. Compared to the not-Rebels- another horrific genocide has occured, but we destroyed their super weapon. Again. It was pretty simple actually. Follow us and we will lead you to victory! Once the Death Star is off the table, all the damage and non of the threat exist. That's a very good cause to go after the SoB's. And a pretty good motivator to get a move on it soon, before they can make another one.

Ahh, but it wasn't just another Death Star. No moon-based superlaser that had to move in system to be effective.

Starkiller Base wiped out an entire solar system from across the galaxy. That changes the game. More importantly, the FO pressed the attack after. They got support from other Imperial remnants. The Captain of the Dreadnought was ex-Imperial Navy, he's too old to be born and bred FO.

Finn's sacrifice could have (if the director, so wanted) knocked out a laser, maybe buying more time. The intention was to save people. That no one was coming, is the fault of the director for making the Rebels so uninspiring that no on in the galaxy will come to their rescue. More importantly, it would complete his character arc. He started as a cowardly deserter, running away and not willing to stand and fight. They clearly had no story ideas for his character development because they iced him on a fetch quest. So if he ends his story in a heroic self-sacrifice, where he saves his fellow Rebels and dies rather than running, his circle is complete. It would be a tragic, yet heroic end where the little guy saves the day (consistent with theme) rather than the Jedi Master of the Skywalker legacy (let the past die and all that).

Well, sure, if we jigger the plot around enough, it would've been a tragic yet inspiring sacrifice that saved everybody. If we jiggle the plot around enough, lots of things would change.

Not much of Trickster God punk, when Luke died. Joke's on Luke. And Kylo gets the last laugh. Luke was a coward, refused to clean up his mistakes and left the rest of the galaxy to solve his problem, while he gets to peace out. Though maybe he and Yoda can spend the rest of their days Force zapping Kylo. Amusing, I guess. He can do the Trickster, see you around, but live for the next film- maybe Ascendancy at the end of the 9th. Or he can come in person and die for the others. But they tried to have their cake and eat it too. And it doesn't work. It's very unsatisfying. Two movies of build up, and he does one flashy move and dies of a heart attack anyways. Underwhelming to say the least.

Says you, I thought it was brilliant. Luke Skywalker, individual human, would've absolutely been plastered by cannon fire. So he solved the problem the only way he solves Jedi problems: by explicitly rejecting violence, even at the potential cost of his own life.

And the brilliant part is? Nobody knows he's dead short of Leia, possibly Rey. Kyle might suspect, but he's honestly kinda dense. Every non-force using member of the FO is gonna be watching over their backs for the guy who can casually stride through cannon fire and disappear at the blink of an eye. Who so utterly embarrassed their Supreme Leader. Nazis run on bravado. Humiliation is a powerful weapon.

Falling:

Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up

This is actually another flaw in the story telling. They never once SHOW us why Poe's actions were bad. They just tell us. Never once did they have a 'sure would be nice to have those bombers right about now' moment. Not once. In fact, all those bombers seemed about useless as the only plan was to abandon ship and use the transports.

Well, they didn't have anymore bombs.

Where were they going to turn in fight? Not to mention, for some idiotic reason (plot contrivance again), there was no fighter screen at the very beginning and those bombers are paper airplanes and slow as pigs. I thought they were really cool looking up until they all got destroyed very easily. And then I couldn't think of why they would ever replace the B-wing or even the Y-wing as bombers. They just can't get into a fight unless there are literally no enemies.

Did you see the bomb racks on those guys? If proton torpedos could do the trick, Poe would've just soloed the Dreadnought.

In the most ideal condition possible (no turrets, and stupidly delayed fighters), they could still only just barely get one bomber to drop its load. For the rest of the movie, there are TIE fighters buzzing around all over the place on patrol. From what we've seen on the screen, they would not have a snowball's chance in hell to get close to anything remotely useful.

The attack was delayed due to Poe's weapons getting knocked out. It was kind of a plot point, dunno if you missed it.

The only thing they show us is that the Dreadnought was about to open fire, except it got destroyed right it could get off a shot. So the only thing the film shows us, is that the Raddus should be dead. But Poe saved the Raddus and spends the rest of the movie as person non grata for his troubles. They should all be dead. But he's the bad guy, I guess.

The only reason the Raddus was around long enough for the Dreadnought to almost fire is because they were waiting on Poe's dumbass. They'd've been gone with plenty of time to spare is Poe'd backed off when he was ordered.

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