Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

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immortalfrieza:

Holdo's job as a leader, scratch that, the core point of a leader is to manage morale, simply telling Poe and the rest of the Resistance that there was a plan of any sort even wouldn't be babying Poe or the other redshirts, it would be the bare minimum a leader is supposed to do.

She *did* tell Poe there was a plan. She just didn't tell him what it was.

Likely because he's the sort of hothead that would organize a mutiny as soon as he finds out they're abandoning ship.

Hell, forget about running a scan, all the First Order needed was some no name grunt with binoculars looking out a window watching the Resistance ships, which there should have been as a matter of course just to watch for anything they might be doing. The transports were only cloaked from electronic detection, not visible detection; when your plan can be foiled by the enemy looking out the window it's a terrible plan. Of course, this comes back to the bad guys being idiots, like pretty much every bad guy in the history of fiction always is because otherwise the bad guys would win, every Bond villain ever for example.

So, the ships are far enough apart that bombardment via Capital-class Turbolaser Fire is ineffectual against cruiser shields, but you expect some dude to randomly be able to see some tiny ships?

Stormtroopers eating their carrots, I guess.

He's not in command, Snoke is.

Irrelevant. It's also Hux that talks about running them out of fuel. It's all his dumb plan. He's just lucky he has a good R&D department.

What rules? Where are these rules? There's nothing in the film about rules. You just made that up.

The Resistance just materialized a bomber fleet out of nowhere to take down a dreadnought, you think Snoke's gonna risk leavinging his flagship with a reduced CAP and assume the Resistance doesn't have a second one? Besides, it's clear Poe Dameron hasn't taken the field.

All speculation. The only reason given is that 'We' (meaning the fleet) 'can't cover you' (meaning Kylo and his two wing mates) wat. Send out more fighters, that should be sufficient cover. You need not send them all out- it doesn't take much to knock out another surprise bomber attack. Also I think the surprise of the bombers is more a trick of editing. It's not clear whether they jumped out of hyperspace or whether they were hiding in another ship. They just appear magically. So I'm a hesitant to read to much into that unless I know how the bombers got to where they were.

Look, sensors is Star Wars have always sucked all kinds of ass.

Which makes her plan even worse.

Blitzes only work until they're blunted. If the FO is like the Nazis, their logistical chain is a slow nightmare. So don't waste hyperspace fuel if you don't need to.

Speculation. This was never a reason given. All we know is that they want to kill them and this is the first film that makes fuel a thing. They introduce THAT very poorly too. First time fuel is a thing and all the Rebel ships are on empty? Whoever's in charge ought to be fired. Far better if their fuel tanks were damaged by a near miss from the Dreadnought or something so it doesn't come out of literally no where all to make this very contrived situation of an 18 hour treadmill plot line.

Starkiller Base wiped out an entire solar system from across the galaxy. That changes the game. More importantly, the FO pressed the attack after. They got support from other Imperial remnants.

But it's gone. And that's no different than the first and second time, just bigger and not it's exploded, and the Rebels did it faster this time too. (We're getting pretty good at this.) Why wouldn't you join the Rebels after that? They can shoot 'em down faster than they can build them, that's for sure. And this neo-Empire is clearly the same as the last lot.

And I have no idea what not-Empire is doing as these films are allergic to world building on the grand scale. (Wrong lesson to be learned from the prequels- Episode IV was great at dropping hints about the wider galaxy) Regardless. The weapon is gone. Which means they stirred up a hornets nest, but lost the weapon that could do it again. That should mean push back, big time. But both these films are intent on recreating the Originals in their own image instead of doing something creative and new. They just had to reboot back to Rebels and Empire instead of giving us a proper civil war between the New Republic and whomever.

I thought Luke's move was great up until he keeled over and died. I don't mind the ascendancy, but Luke story arc didn't have enough time to go from hero of the Originals to cowardly hobo, to ascendant master and gone (After teasing a whole movie about finding Luke.) It's character whiplash. Give me a third film where he can do a few more things, and then become ascendant, and I'd be okay, and I'd respect the trick.

As it is, he pretended he could die... so that he could actually die. But it's like going out with a stroke- not a great way to go as the Skywalker, Mr Big Deal himself, as far as Force Awakens was concerned. Without redeeming anyone, and the only reason anyone got saved is they got lucky. The dang Lassie foxes saved the day, I guess. Again more plot contrivances- Poe was right for the wrong reasons, seems how Luke ghosted into the base, he didn't need a back exit at all. For all Luke knows, he delayed them for a bit, and then the Walkers got the last of the rebels. Good job Luke, you delayed them for a bit, and then they died.

Nazis run on war material and fuel. They got those in spades and the Rebels have one transport ship and they're happy about it. Things have never been worse and they're happy. I don't see why anyone would join them now. Maybe wait ten or twenty years and try again. I think Stalin won. Wait for his funeral, maybe someone can power grab after.

Well, they didn't have anymore bombs.

So what? There was never a situation where they needed bombs. Look, this is basic storytelling. If you want to hit home that he dun goofed, you highlight that in a key moment where it is very obvious that the thing that got destroyed would've been very useful. And then we think: "Poe, you idiot. You dun goofed. We needed those bomber, NOW."

Did you see the bomb racks on those guys? If proton torpedos could do the trick, Poe would've just soloed the Dreadnought.

I saw them. I also saw in the most ideal scenario, they still could only get one bomber to kind of drop it's bombs, before dying. It doesn't matter how many bombs you have, if you can't get them to the target. You can sit on a mountain of bombs, and it's useless if they'll blow up in transit in every scenario except when the enemy has no guns whatsoever. (Was the New Republic in the habit of bombing defencless cities, maybe?)

The attack was delayed due to Poe's weapons getting knocked out. It was kind of a plot point, dunno if you missed it.

??? What does that have to do with no fighter screen. For the rest of the film, the ships have a fighter screen. In the opening battle. No fighters. Because the script said so. In all other battles, there would be a swarm of fighters already. How are they getting through?

The only reason the Raddus was around long enough for the Dreadnought to almost fire is because they were waiting on Poe's dumbass. They'd've been gone with plenty of time to spare is Poe'd backed off when he was ordered.

Never established. The best I could figure, they were still waiting around for transports to load. Or calculating coordinates, or any other reason. But they never actually gave a reason for the delay, so I assumed that they could not rather than would not. Because if they were waiting for Poe. They're dumb. A big ol' gun is spooling up to blast 'em. What's one disobedient squadron commander compared to a whole ship. The X-wings have hypedrives. Leave 'em in the parking lot and make him walk home. But they never gave a reason, so I gave the most charitable explanation at the time (I was till enjoying the film at that point in time, although weird warning flags were going off in the back of mine brain that I was suppressing.)

Waiting for Poe is a much worse look on Leia (who, can we be honest, never does much in the generaling department. She has no plans of action. It's just reaction and looking sad. I wish they turned her into a Jedi master to begin with and nevermind this whole 'she's not a princess, she's a general. Okay. Whatever. She doesn't do much of that either, and they wasted an opportunity to correct a huge oversight in the old EU- Leia was supposed to be equal in potential power to Luke. Random space flying is no consolation for this missed opportunity.)

Falling:

Irrelevant. It's also Hux that talks about running them out of fuel. It's all his dumb plan. He's just lucky he has a good R&D department.

What rules? Where are these rules? There's nothing in the film about rules. You just made that up.

The good guys say that if they get out from under the SDs, the fighters will fall back, and when they get out from under the SDs, the fighters fall back. Rule of engagement right there.

The Resistance just materialized a bomber fleet out of nowhere to take down a dreadnought, you think Snoke's gonna risk leavinging his flagship with a reduced CAP and assume the Resistance doesn't have a second one? Besides, it's clear Poe Dameron hasn't taken the field.

All speculation. The only reason given is that 'We' (meaning the fleet) 'can't cover you' (meaning Kylo and his two wing mates) wat. Send out more fighters, that should be sufficient cover. You need not send them all out- it doesn't take much to knock out another surprise bomber attack. Also I think the surprise of the bombers is more a trick of editing. It's not clear whether they jumped out of hyperspace or whether they were hiding in another ship. They just appear magically. So I'm a hesitant to read to much into that unless I know how the bombers got to where they were.

Pretty sure they warped in, considering their size and the fact we don't see hide nor hair of them or the A-wings. It clearly took Hux by surprise, at any rate. Dreadnought Captain twigged on pretty early, but he's not in charge.

Look, sensors is Star Wars have always sucked all kinds of ass.

Which makes her plan even worse.

...by making the cloaking plan feasible in the first place? If the FO didn't get that intel, they'd have been in the clear.

Blitzes only work until they're blunted. If the FO is like the Nazis, their logistical chain is a slow nightmare. So don't waste hyperspace fuel if you don't need to.

Speculation. This was never a reason given. All we know is that they want to kill them and this is the first film that makes fuel a thing. They introduce THAT very poorly too. First time fuel is a thing and all the Rebel ships are on empty? Whoever's in charge ought to be fired. Far better if their fuel tanks were damaged by a near miss from the Dreadnought or something so it doesn't come out of literally no where all to make this very contrived situation of an 18 hour treadmill plot line.

...are you seriously suggesting that the mere idea that ships run on some kind of fuel is a thing that needs to be specifically introduced?

Starkiller Base wiped out an entire solar system from across the galaxy. That changes the game. More importantly, the FO pressed the attack after. They got support from other Imperial remnants.

But it's gone. And that's no different than the first and second time, just bigger and not it's exploded, and the Rebels did it faster this time too. (We're getting pretty good at this.) Why wouldn't you join the Rebels after that? They can shoot 'em down faster than they can build them, that's for sure. And this neo-Empire is clearly the same as the last lot.

Well, there's this whole bit where the strongest fleet in the galaxy, the mainstay of the Republic, just got obliterated, while the FO has drastic fleet superiority and is launching attacks all across the Rim.

And I have no idea what not-Empire is doing as these films are allergic to world building on the grand scale. (Wrong lesson to be learned from the prequels- Episode IV was great at dropping hints about the wider galaxy) Regardless. The weapon is gone. Which means they stirred up a hornets nest, but lost the weapon that could do it again. That should mean push back, big time.

With what fleet?

But both these films are intent on recreating the Originals in their own image instead of doing something creative and new. They just had to reboot back to Rebels and Empire instead of giving us a proper civil war between the New Republic and whomever.

Yeah, like the EU, which was *checks notes* the New Republic vs various Imperial Remnants ad nauseum. Everybody gets a clone.

I thought Luke's move was great up until he keeled over and died. I don't mind the ascendancy, but Luke story arc didn't have enough time to go from hero of the Originals to cowardly hobo, to ascendant master and gone (After teasing a whole movie about finding Luke.) It's character whiplash. Give me a third film where he can do a few more things, and then become ascendant, and I'd be okay, and I'd respect the trick.

As it is, he pretended he could die... so that he could actually die. But it's like going out with a stroke- not a great way to go as the Skywalker, Mr Big Deal himself, as far as Force Awakens was concerned. Without redeeming anyone, and the only reason anyone got saved is they got lucky. The dang Lassie foxes saved the day, I guess. Again more plot contrivances- Poe was right for the wrong reasons, seems how Luke ghosted into the base, he didn't need a back exit at all. For all Luke knows, he delayed them for a bit, and then the Walkers got the last of the rebels. Good job Luke, you delayed them for a bit, and then they died.

Yeah, he couldn't possibly of come through the back deliberately to show them there was a way out. That's just a plot contrivance.

Nazis run on war material and fuel. They got those in spades and the Rebels have one transport ship and they're happy about it. Things have never been worse and they're happy. I don't see why anyone would join them now. Maybe wait ten or twenty years and try again. I think Stalin won. Wait for his funeral, maybe someone can power grab after.

They're happy they're alive, chillax.

Falling:

Well, they didn't have anymore bombs.

So what? There was never a situation where they needed bombs. Look, this is basic storytelling. If you want to hit home that he dun goofed, you highlight that in a key moment where it is very obvious that the thing that got destroyed would've been very useful. And then we think: "Poe, you idiot. You dun goofed. We needed those bomber, NOW."

I dunno, a fleet of hyperspace capable bombers would probably be pretty useful when Snoke's flagship shows up. I'm sorry they didn't verbalize literally everything. Though I suppose they did need to put up signs saying that the movie goes silent for a bit. The situation where they needed bombs is "super tough targets like Dreadnoughts". You hit home that "he dun goofed" with, I dunno, an immediate dressing down by a respected superior officer. And, basic storytelling as it is, we aren't, necessarily, supposed to think he's in the wrong until later in the film. Around, I dunno, "we shouldn't tell Holdo that the FO is likely tracking us through hyperspace and probably don't need to worry about a spy, so here's our crazy plan"

Did you see the bomb racks on those guys? If proton torpedos could do the trick, Poe would've just soloed the Dreadnought.

I saw them. I also saw in the most ideal scenario, they still could only get one bomber to kind of drop it's bombs, before dying. It doesn't matter how many bombs you have, if you can't get them to the target. You can sit on a mountain of bombs, and it's useless if they'll blow up in transit in every scenario except when the enemy has no guns whatsoever. (Was the New Republic in the habit of bombing defencless cities, maybe?)

Fuck's sake, that situation was far from ideal. You've seen the movie, right? Poe takes a hit, shorting out his weapons before he takes out the last tower, delaying the attack long enough for the FO to finish deploying their fighter screen. Then, due to said fighter screen, the attack runs into some disastrous luck and leaves the attack force all but annihilated. If the attack had gon "ideally", the cannons would have been disabled faster, leaving the A-Wings to deal with a small number of disorganized TIEs, and giving the Bombers a much cleaner approach.

The attack was delayed due to Poe's weapons getting knocked out. It was kind of a plot point, dunno if you missed it.

??? What does that have to do with no fighter screen. For the rest of the film, the ships have a fighter screen. In the opening battle. No fighters. Because the script said so. In all other battles, there would be a swarm of fighters already. How are they getting through?

They were bombarding a base in the first battle, and had more than enough firepower to deal with the Resistance's meager capital ships. Seeing fighters approach would give them ample time to put a defense up. Only an madman would rocket boost into close range and disable the the surface batteries of a ship they couldn't otherwise hurt.

Do they have an active fighter screen the rest of the movie? I didn't notice. If they did, well, they just got caught with their pants down. Nazis may be stupid, but they are capable of some basic pattern recognition.

The only reason the Raddus was around long enough for the Dreadnought to almost fire is because they were waiting on Poe's dumbass. They'd've been gone with plenty of time to spare if Poe'd backed off when he was ordered.

Never established. The best I could figure, they were still waiting around for transports to load. Or calculating coordinates, or any other reason. But they never actually gave a reason for the delay, so I assumed that they could not rather than would not. Because if they were waiting for Poe. They're dumb. A big ol' gun is spooling up to blast 'em. What's one disobedient squadron commander compared to a whole ship. The X-wings have hypedrives. Leave 'em in the parking lot and make him walk home. But they never gave a reason, so I gave the most charitable explanation at the time (I was till enjoying the film at that point in time, although weird warning flags were going off in the back of mine brain that I was suppressing.)

Do you need literally everything spelled out for you, is that's what's going on here? The fact they went to hyperspace the instant his ship touched down in the hanger should signal something.

Waiting for Poe is a much worse look on Leia (who, can we be honest, never does much in the generaling department. She has no plans of action. It's just reaction and looking sad. I wish they turned her into a Jedi master to begin with and nevermind this whole 'she's not a princess, she's a general. Okay. Whatever. She doesn't do much of that either, and they wasted an opportunity to correct a huge oversight in the old EU- Leia was supposed to be equal in potential power to Luke. Random space flying is no consolation for this missed opportunity.)

She was busy. You know, fighting the FO, trying to convince folks that "no, the Nazis didn't all go away, we need a denazification program". Hell, movie 9 was supposed to be "hers", but real life is a bitch like that.

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

Once again, not telling your crew is, on top of being villain coding in a story, an antiquated military leadership doctrine that was done away with for exactly the reasons that happen in the movie.

And again, Poe =/= "the crew". Hell, given the visceral reaction Poe had when he saw the transports being fueled up, I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have tried to pull a mutiny if he'd known the plan from the start. He certainly never passed on the idea that the FO could track them through hyperspace.

Poe is part of the crew and yes, modern military doctrine is to have everyone from the generals to the grunts know the strategy and tactical plans. And if he still mutinied at that point, there'd be no way to blame Holdo and it wouldn't be any worse than what did happen. Using hindsight is a bit unfair, but Holdo is a fascist anyway.

As a side note, is there anyone left between Poe and the admiralty? Did the demotion even accomplish anything? I legit don't know, but I don't remember Holdo ever conferring with other people of rank.

For the most part, Holdo isn't a viewpoint character. We don't get to see most of her interactions.

That's why I don't know.

I dunno, acting against direct orders and getting two squadrons of people dead deserves at least a dressing down.

Possibly, but he still accomplished a good tactical goal.

Questionable, especially considering losses. Those bombers and fighter screens, provided they didn't reveal themselves once Poe's attack stalled, might've been able to launch a surprise attack on Snoke's flagship in the follow up. I'd be downright shocked if that ship wasn't at least as powerful as a Dreadnought. Fascists don't let their subordinates have bigger toys.

Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?

Wait, what?

Exactly that. From Poe's position, Holdo's plan looked suicidal.

Poe thought that running away from an overwhelmingly superior military force was cowardice. A couple more Poe plans and he'd be the only member of the Resistance.

As a point of fact, due to the comedy of errors, Holdo's plan has reduced the resistance to 12 people or so. I mean, I know we're supposed to expect the FO to not try scanning for their stealth system, but were we going to expect them to not check the closest planet after their ships had been abandoned? Iirc, the FO knew when the ships were abandoned.

crimson5pheonix:

Poe is part of the crew and yes, modern military doctrine is to have everyone from the generals to the grunts know the strategy and tactical plans. And if he still mutinied at that point, there'd be no way to blame Holdo and it wouldn't be any worse than what did happen. Using hindsight is a bit unfair, but Holdo is a fascist anyway.

That's patently false. 'Grunts' are given a debrief of the theatre. Battlefield conditions. Likely opposition. Composition of enemy forces in theatre. Assignment of roles. The nature of the fight. Intelligence on enemy movements. A rundown of possible engagement sectors.

They aren't given a total run down of strategy. Mainly because that is well above their paygrade, and military operations are often planned for years. Besides, it's not even in your job detail. It's the commander's top priority to guarantee the safety and security of their soldiers in the pursuit of victory in the field.

Holdo, if she survived, will only have been thinking about how many letters she would have to give a personal spin on to family members of the deceased summed up as; "One of my pilots got your child killed while disobeying an order. Soz."

This is what makes Luke Skywalker's actions on Endor so utterly fucked up ... but apparently no one seems to bring up his gross immorality of surrendering to enemy forces before the fight even begins... If people still get shot for gross dereliction of duty, Luke Skywalker is a candidate.

Imagine him trying to explain himself to his superiors in a court martial...

----

"Hey ... like ... you know. I think my old man detected our presence approaching the moon, so I decided to talk to him prior the battle."

"Wait -- you engaged with enemy officers for a chat, after jeopardizing the operation, and in the process were captured--?"

"Well ... not so much captured as surrendered..."

"Wait--Okay, no. I literally can't think of any possible thing you can say to assuage what I'm feeling right now."

"It's okay ... I turned him over to the Light."

"And this influenced the nature of the battle.... how?"

"It totally didn't. No. The Death Star would have been blown up anyways. In fact, I defeated my father on the Death Star itself ... so ultimately it was kind of pointless. But you know ... my father died a Jedi! That's totally worth utter recklessness, insubordination and dereliction of duty right?"

----

Yet conspicuously that is never brought up...

Addendum_Forthcoming:

crimson5pheonix:

Poe is part of the crew and yes, modern military doctrine is to have everyone from the generals to the grunts know the strategy and tactical plans. And if he still mutinied at that point, there'd be no way to blame Holdo and it wouldn't be any worse than what did happen. Using hindsight is a bit unfair, but Holdo is a fascist anyway.

That's patently false. 'Grunts' are given a debrief of the theatre. Battlefield conditions. Likely opposition. Composition of enemy forces in theatre. Assignment of roles. The nature of the fight. Intelligence on enemy movements. A rundown of possible engagement sectors.

They aren't given a total run down of strategy. Mainly because that is well above their paygrade, and military operations are often planned for years. Besides, it's not even in your job detail. It's the commander's top priority to guarantee the safety and security of their soldiers in the pursuit of victory in the field.

I'm pretty sure the grunts are told why their particular operation is useful to the overall strategy. But in any case, the escape plan is a tactical one and would most definitely be shared with the crew even if their lives didn't immediately depend on that plan.

Holdo, if she survived, will only have been thinking about how many letters she would have to give a personal spin on to family members of the deceased summed up as; "One of my pilots got your child killed while disobeying an order. Soz."

I doubt that since there was no way off the planet they were going to.

This is what makes Luke Skywalker's actions on Endor so utterly fucked up ... but apparently no one seems to bring up his gross immorality of surrendering to enemy forces before the fight even begins... If people still get shot for gross dereliction of duty, Luke Skywalker is a candidate.

Imagine him trying to explain himself to a Rebel court-martial.

"Hey ... like ... you know. I think my old man detected our presence approaching the moon, so I decided to talk to him prior the battle."

"Wait -- you engaged with enemy officers for a chat, after jeopardizing the operation, and in the process were captured--?"

"Well ... not so much captured as surrendered..."

"Wait--Okay, no. I literally can't think of any possible thing you can say to assuage what I'm feeling right now."

Yet conspicuously that is never brought up...

I mean, Star Wars has always been on some level dumb. It's only now trying to pretend logistics and conduct matter.

crimson5pheonix:

I'm pretty sure the grunts are told why their particular operation is useful to the overall strategy. But in any case, the escape plan is a tactical one and would most definitely be shared with the crew even if their lives didn't immediately depend on that plan.

That only assumes they're actually planning maneuvers. Poe had his command authority to engage hostiles directly countermanded. That alone will buy him a trip to the brig. The fact that Holdo keeps him around is a mercy born likely of the fact that he is gifted, and one of her few combat pilots remaining. The fact of the matter is that I wouldn't stand to want to be in the same room as him. Much less stroke his overblown fucking ego... the fact that he goes on once more to prove he's unworthy of her trust should imply only that he deserved nothing but contempt.

No ... commanders are not expected to waste time catering to the egos of the insubordinate.

The fact of the matter is if he was a good little soldier like he should have been the Resistance would have been in a better shape. Basically Poe's saving grace at the end was simply that he was willing to make a last, desperate attack ... exhausting all possibilities. Beyond that, Poe is riddled with failures of his own designs.

I doubt that since there was no way off the planet they were going to.

Arguably she didn't know that the other allied parties would not send assistance by this point. Moreover, Leia was incapacitated ... so what else did she have but her orders and her grasp of the strategic situation? She was presented a no win situation without any real nuances of a conventional victory without assistance. In the end she tried to live up to that singular priority above all of treating the lives of her soldiers with utmost care in the pursuit of victory. And she fulfils that role admirably... at least until Poe tarnished what would be her final actions.

That's the thing ... Holdo lives up to the remit of her office.

Poe does not.

I mean, Star Wars has always been on some level dumb. It's only now trying to pretend logistics and conduct matter.

But it's always been a collection of movies with frankly bullshit ideas of black and white morality.

Like if Luke Skywalker's utter contempt for his responsibilities and upstanding conduct is reflective of the 'path to being a Jedi' ... maybe they should forbid Jedi ever holding political and military positions...?

Like, fuck me ... imagine how awesome Palpatine would have been as the Chancellor if he just said. "Look, I'm significantly limiting the powers of the Jedi. They spy on people, they're training child soldiers, they have access to deadly weapons ... Really, it's kind of fucked up. So here on the Jedi will be relegated purely to spiritual roles with no outstanding powers related beyond theology and its instruction."

Boom!

Imagine the Jedi bursting into your office and trying to murder you over that?

How fucking phenomenal would that be? It would be great. Imagine the jedi trying to accuse you of being a Sith because you took away their secret religious police powers and because they are deemed an illegitimate environment for the education of minors?

"I am already arranging for the transports so these children can be reunited with their families. Housed and compensated at my own personal cost. Until such time they can make suitable arrangements if they choose to depart Coruscant. No longer on religious grounds will we allow the private recruitment of these children to be trained and exposed to such barbaric, backwards practices such as to spy on their fellow citizenry, or even kill them whenever religious values and orders of the Jedi demand it ... The Republic will no longer stand for superstitions undermining our inalienable rights as people protected by the law..."

Why didn't Palpatine just do that?

Easy ... because morality is black and white, and because Star Wars is inherently dumb.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

crimson5pheonix:

I'm pretty sure the grunts are told why their particular operation is useful to the overall strategy. But in any case, the escape plan is a tactical one and would most definitely be shared with the crew even if their lives didn't immediately depend on that plan.

That only assumes they're actually planning maneuvers. Poe had his command authority to engage hostiles directly countermanded. That alone will buy him a trip to the brig. The fact that Holdo keeps him around is a mercy born likely of the fact that he is gifted, and one of her few combat pilots remaining. The fact of the matter is that I wouldn't stand to want to be in the same room as him. Much less stroke his overblown fucking ego... the fact that he goes on once more to prove he's unworthy of her trust should imply only that he deserved nothing but contempt.

No ... commanders are not expected to waste time catering to the egos of the insubordinate.

The fact of the matter is if he was a good little soldier like he should have been the Resistance would have been in a better shape. Basically Poe's saving grace at the end was simply that he was willing to make a last, desperate attack ... exhausting all possibilities. Beyond that, Poe is riddled with failures of his own designs.

So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.

I doubt that since there was no way off the planet they were going to.

Arguably she didn't know that the other allied parties would not send assistance by this point. Moreover, Leia was incapacitated ... so what else did she have but her orders and her grasp of the strategic situation? She was presented a no win situation without any real nuances of a conventional victory without assistance. In the end she tried to live up to that singular priority above all of treating the lives of her soldiers with utmost care in the pursuit of victory. And she fulfils that role admirably... at least until Poe tarnished what would be her final actions.

That's the thing ... Holdo lives up to the remit of her office.

Poe does not.

I mean, they say that they are the very last of the resistance period, nobody would come to save them if it weren't for Rey. It really is a no-win situation because of the bad writing of the movie (outside Holdo's poor plays). Realistically the resistance has no moves to play no matter what happened, even if they get people to rise up there is no equipment for them. Even if the resistance hadn't lost all their ships to the chase, all they'd have is about a total of 30 fighters and bombers and the few transport craft they had. If the movie hadn't happened, they'd still be fucked.

But if the movie hadn't happened, we wouldn't be questioning logistics when the galaxy rebels and suddenly has a fighting force capable of standing up to the FO.

I mean, Star Wars has always been on some level dumb. It's only now trying to pretend logistics and conduct matter.

But it's always been a collection of movies with frankly bullshit ideas of black and white morality.

Like if Luke Skywalker's utter contempt for his responsibles and upstanding conduct is reflective of the 'path to being a Jedi' ... maybe they should forbid Jedi ever holding political and military positions...?

Like, fuck me ... imagine how awesome Palpitine would have been as the Chancellor if he just said. "Look, I'm significantly limiting the powers of the Jedi. They spy on people, they're training child soldiers, they have access to deadly weapons ... Really, it's kind of fucked up. So here on the Jedi will be relegated purely to spiritual roles with no outstanding powers related beyond theology and its instruction."

Boom!

Imagine the Jedi bursting into your office and trying to murder you over that?

How fucking phenomenal would that be? It would be great. Imagine the jedi trying to accuse you of being a Sith because you took away their secret religious police and because they are deemed an illegitimate environment for the education of minors?

Let's be generous and bring them here, to this place. Set they can be with their families. I am already arranging for the transports so these children can be reunited with their families and places in state owned public housing as we speak. No longer on religious grounds will we allow the private recruitment of these children to be trained and exposed to such barbaric, backwards practices...

Why didn't Palpitine just do that?

Easy ... because morality is black and white, and because Star Wars is inherently dumb.

Accurate.

crimson5pheonix:

Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?

I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.

As a point of fact, due to the comedy of errors, Holdo's plan has reduced the resistance to 12 people or so. I mean, I know we're supposed to expect the FO to not try scanning for their stealth system, but were we going to expect them to not check the closest planet after their ships had been abandoned? Iirc, the FO knew when the ships were abandoned.

Of course they're gonna scan for ships, that's what the stealth is for. I mean shit, would you expect your enemy to have a small fleet of stealth transports? Furthermore, would you expect them to maroon themselves on an abandoned planet full of salt and nothing, essentially defenseless, instead of trying to escape on their hyperspace capable ship or launching a desperate last stand?

Like, the FO isn't gonna know they abandoned their last, final hyperspace capable ship. That'd be crazy. Had the plan worked, they'd have chased the Raddus a couple more hours and seen it jump to hyperspace, then followed it and blown the fuck out've it. I mean, it's not like they bothered trying to capture the other two ships. By the time they notice a distinct lack of bodies in the debris, the Resistance could've hitched a ride off planet. Asking somebody to sneak past an old Star Destroyer or two to pick up your crew is a much easier request than asking somebody to intervene against a huge battlefleet involving the largest ships ever made.

crimson5pheonix:

So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

The military is not for you. "We defend democracy, not practice it" is not an uncommon refrain.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.

I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?

I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.

Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.

As a point of fact, due to the comedy of errors, Holdo's plan has reduced the resistance to 12 people or so. I mean, I know we're supposed to expect the FO to not try scanning for their stealth system, but were we going to expect them to not check the closest planet after their ships had been abandoned? Iirc, the FO knew when the ships were abandoned.

Of Course they're gonna scam for ships, that's what the stealth is for. I mean shit, would you expect your enemy to have a small fleet of stealth transports? Furthermore, would you expect them to maroon themselves on an abandoned planet full of salt and nothing, essentially defenseless, instead of trying to escape on their hyperspace capable ship or launching a desperate last stand?

Like, the FO isn't gonna know they abandoned their last, final hyperspace capable ship. That'd be crazy. Had the plan worked, they'd have chased the Raddus a couple more hours and seen it just to hyperspace, then followed it and blown the fuck out've it. I mean, it's not like they bothered trying to capture the other two ships. By the time they notice a distinct lack of bodies in the debris, the Resistance could've hitched a ride off planet. Asking somebody to sneak past an old Star Destroyer or two to pick up your crew is a much easier request than asking somebody to intervene against a huge battlefleet involving the largest ships ever made.

Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

The military is not for you. "We defend democracy, not practice it" is not an uncommon refrain.

True, it's just disconcerting that the movie wants me to sympathize with another movie's villain. And that the old rebel's habit of telling everyone a plan before they execute it has died to the new tyranny.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.

I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.

It is speaking to hindsight (and also correct because he wouldn't have sent the C-team out). But it's Holdo who didn't share information that caused him to act in the fleet's (snicker they think it's a fleet) interest, though in a different way than Holdo and it didn't end up working out. Yes, he could have told Holdo (it would have been in his character to tell Holdo after he had sent them off and told her to shove it) and that might have resolved the plot.

But that requires anyone in the movie to act with any intelligence.

altnameJag:
I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.

The Resistance would have been fucked if Poe had mutinied earlier and prevented Holodo from abandoning the Raddus. Remember, his plan to sneak aboard the Supremacy disable their tracker and jump away before anyone noticed the tracker wasn't working failed. Finn and Rose got caught and were nearly executed. The only thing that might have changed was DJ getting executed as well seeing as he had no way to cut a deal.
The Raddus would not have been able to escape, would not have stood a chance against nine regular/super Star Destroyers and Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer and there would not have been time to abandon ship like Holdo originally wanted.

The review made me realize i have a different problem with Holdo.

I wouldn't say her character is pointless, but... redundant? Yeah, that'd be the word. She's just there to provide Poe a chance for character arc, and then die. With a few small changes in the script, you could make an already established character, like Leia, serve the same purpose.

MrCalavera:
The review made me realize i have a different problem with Holdo.

I wouldn't say her character is pointless, but... redundant? Yeah, that'd be the word. She's just there to provide Poe a chance for character arc, and then die. With a few small changes in the script, you could make an already established character, like Leia, serve the same purpose.

Leia would be harder to pull off, in that Leia's an established character that we're inclined to root for. Holdo, being a newcomer, is one that we'd be less inclined to trust, so we can get behind Poe's actions more, so when the rug's pulled out from under us, it's pulled out harder.

Or at least that's an explanation I've seen be given.

crimson5pheonix:

So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.

The military is not a democracy. In essence, unless they're blatantly failing to up to their responsibilities you don't just jump to insubordination and mutiny. For starters, Poe is clearly not staff. He's in a cockpit. And there is no reason for him to suspect that his CO is acting outside their responsibilities.

Your average workspace is not a democracy, either. If the Department gave us instructions on how we were meant to break up fights on the school ground in a notice, or new guidelines on trans students and their transitioning in school ... you better believe teachers will follow it, or else they'll lose their jobs. But being a teacher is not a 'fascist' either.

I mean, they say that they are the very last of the resistance period, nobody would come to save them if it weren't for Rey. It really is a no-win situation because of the bad writing of the movie (outside Holdo's poor plays). Realistically the resistance has no moves to play no matter what happened, even if they get people to rise up there is no equipment for them. Even if the resistance hadn't lost all their ships to the chase, all they'd have is about a total of 30 fighters and bombers and the few transport craft they had. If the movie hadn't happened, they'd still be fucked.

But if the movie hadn't happened, we wouldn't be questioning logistics when the galaxy rebels and suddenly has a fighting force capable of standing up to the FO.

But if I remember correctly, no one could have known that for sure. And sure as shit Poe didn't before his insubordination. The thing is if they are the last of the Resistance, then it's pointless to fight as if one last desperate measure when even the slimmest possibilities exist to save the remnants of the Resistance remain.

The truly stupid thing is that they one so conveniently assemble in one place largely. The insinuation at the start of TFA seems to suggest that the Resistance is reduced to squallid little hideaways... so why they didn't try to just disband their forces with the orders of getting whatever experienced pilots and infantry to train up pilots and stompers wherever they get sent to.

Which is arguably the best reason why you'd want those craft to begin with, at least. Training craft while regenerating your forces.

But regardless, bad pacing does not a bad commander in Holdo make.

Much less in comparison to 'heroes' like Luke Skywalker. Hell, arguably Ackbar is a bigger fucking idiot of basically hyperspace jumping the entire Rebel fleet without actually making contact and confirmation with the Rebel commandos. But then again, Star Wars is not a smart franchise. It's stupid fun.

Accurate.

Precisely... so why is it Holdo gets any measure of abstracted criticism?

Quite clearly she and Leia are the only commanders with any actual reasons to exist. Even if you disagree with her decisions, it's at least forseeable why a commander would act like Leia and Holdo. And moreover, they are genuinely heroic ...

Addendum_Forthcoming:

crimson5pheonix:

So he should never question his commander's orders nor expect his commander to explain their reasoning? "Your job is to follow orders, not question them". I like the new fascist regime.

But in any case, it's not "catering to ego", it's "maintaining morale and preventing soldiers from accidentally undermining your plans". Because lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.

The military is not a democracy. In essence, unless they're blatantly failing to up to their responsibilities you don't just jump to insubordination and mutiny. For starters, Poe is clearly not staff. He's in a cockpit. And there is no reason for him to suspect that his CO is acting outside their responsibilities.

Your average workspace is not a democracy, either. If the Department gave us instructions on how we were meant to break up fights on the school ground in a notice, or new guidelines on trans students and their transitioning in school ... you better believe teachers will follow it, or else they'll lose their jobs. But being a teacher is not a 'fascist' either.

But in any reasonable situation you would be allowed to ask questions and reasonably expect an explanation of the logic. Unless an order needs to be followed in that exact moment for a timing issue (which definitely wasn't the case here with Holdo's plan), you're going to come off looking like the villain if you act like that. Not to mention it's inefficient to do so for precisely the reasons shown in the movie.

I mean, they say that they are the very last of the resistance period, nobody would come to save them if it weren't for Rey. It really is a no-win situation because of the bad writing of the movie (outside Holdo's poor plays). Realistically the resistance has no moves to play no matter what happened, even if they get people to rise up there is no equipment for them. Even if the resistance hadn't lost all their ships to the chase, all they'd have is about a total of 30 fighters and bombers and the few transport craft they had. If the movie hadn't happened, they'd still be fucked.

But if the movie hadn't happened, we wouldn't be questioning logistics when the galaxy rebels and suddenly has a fighting force capable of standing up to the FO.

But if I remember correctly, no one could have known that for sure. And sure as shit Poe didn't before his insubordination. The thing is if they are the last of the Resistance, then it's pointless to fight as if one last desperate measure when even the slimmest possibilities exist to save the remnants of the Resistance remain.

The truly stupid thing is that they one so conveniently assemble in one place largely. The insinuation at the start of TFA seems to suggest that the Resistance is reduced to squallid little hideaways... so why they didn't try to just disband their forces with the orders of getting whatever experienced pilots and infantry to train up pilots and stompers wherever they get sent to.

Which is arguably the best reason why you'd want those craft to begin with, at least. Training craft while regenerating your forces.

But regardless, bad pacing does not a bad commander in Holdo make.

Much less in comparison to 'heroes' like Luke Skywalker. Hell, arguably Ackbar is a bigger fucking idiot of basically hyperspace jumping the entire Rebel fleet without actually making contact and confirmation with the Rebel commandos. But then again, Star Wars is not a smart franchise. It's stupid fun.

You're running along with a lot of the arguments I've been making in this thread previously. The problem is that Leia and Holdo are pissed at Poe for destroying their main battle force and they (and the people in this thread) defend their position by saying that Poe's actions crippled the resistance's ability to engage the FO's military. You and Agema brought up the actual smart point that they could train new soldiers (though there are still problems with that), but that's not an argument they use in the movie. It seems like Leia and Holdo expected that force to be the backbone of their military for engaging the FO and I can only think "the hell kind of strategy do you expect to pull off with 4 transports and 30 attack craft against a military the size of the FO? The rebel alliance had dozens of transports and hundreds or thousands of attack craft at Endor." So from a logistics standpoint, there isn't even a resistance anymore. They can't actually threaten the FO.

As to why training new soldiers doesn't work out that well, the original trilogy established (either in the movies or in expanded content, I have slept since I last saw them) that the rebels had spent decades building up their forces under the empire and so had stocked bases scattered about and various manufacturing companies making them ships and weapons on the sly, such that they could field a relatively small but reasonably threatening fleet when they needed to. The resistance on the other hand also had decades to build up, but they only had about 1 bases worth of equipment, ships, and personnel. They have so utterly failed on the logistics front that they can't wage any sort of actual resistance against the FO. They don't even have any intel on the FO either. But what this means is that implicitly there aren't any manufacturers making munitions, so even if they got the support of the galaxy now, they won't be able to be armed for a while since there aren't any factories even in real production mode. So even if they had pilots to train with, they've got nothing to do.

Accurate.

Precisely... so why is it Holdo gets any measure of abstracted criticism?

Quite clearly she and Leia are the only commanders with any actual reasons to exist. Even if you disagree with her decisions, it's at least forseeable why a commander would act like Leia and Holdo. And moreover, they are genuinely heroic ...

Because they decided to make this plot point about logistics and opened the door to how fucked the resistance is and how even if you consider Poe's action wasteful, the fleet was pointless anyway. Not to mention the actions they take would be villainous actions in other movies.

twistedmic:

altnameJag:
I like how Holdo is to blame for Poe not sharing relevant information with her. That makes sense, somehow. And, again, as soon as Poe learned the actual plan...he mutinied. I suppose you could make an argument that if he'd have mutinied earlier, things would've been better off, but that's speaking directly to hindsight.

The Resistance would have been fucked if Poe had mutinied earlier and prevented Holodo from abandoning the Raddus. Remember, his plan to sneak aboard the Supremacy disable their tracker and jump away before anyone noticed the tracker wasn't working failed. Finn and Rose got caught and were nearly executed. The only thing that might have changed was DJ getting executed as well seeing as he had no way to cut a deal.
The Raddus would not have been able to escape, would not have stood a chance against nine regular/super Star Destroyers and Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer and there would not have been time to abandon ship like Holdo originally wanted.

Theoretically, had his mutiny happened and been thwarted earlier, he wouldn't've been around to tell Finn, Rose, and DJ about the stealth shuttles.

But that's making a lot of assumptions.

crimson5pheonix:

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

Well you are correct that it is "at least as powerful as a dreadnought". Snoke's flagship is the single largest ship ever made in Star Wars apart from the Death Star (if you consider that a ship). The dreadnoughts were over 7.6km long and 4km wide. The Supremacy was 13km long and 60km wide. Now, with just the TIE fighters at a dreadnought's disposal they barely failed to stop Poe's run and Poe was barely able to take out the point defense turrets and the bombers were just enough to destroy a dreadnought. The hell were they going to do to the Supremacy?

I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.

Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.

Welcome to Space Magic 101. Today's lesion is that Space Magic trumps mortal technology.

Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.

Nah. See, the FO could only detect life signs at about the range that their guns could do damage. If the Resistance kept up the chase for an hour or two before making a last jump into hyperspace, there'd be plenty of time for a medium transport to sneak past the inevitability lax security the FO left around the dead planet...or at least, that's how the Hail Mary plan was supposed to work out.

Could the FO have thwarted it? I mean, yeah? Probably? Especially if Snoke wasn't distracted/bisected by Rey and Ren. It's a bad plan. It might be a better plan then "try to sneak about the enemy flagship, find which specific power conduit housed the tracking device, break that quietly with a hacker that really only has Maz's word going for him, and escape undetected, hoping to make it to hyperspace before anybody notices anything's amiss", but it's not a good plan. The Resistance didn't have the resources to make a good plan.

Falling:
Luke was a coward...

Luke is not a coward. He doesn't lack bravery; he lacks motivation.

He has lost his belief in The Force as the answer to a better galaxy. This is, after all, a man whose father fell to the dark side and was integral in the creation of the Empire, and who when attempting to train new Jedi saw one - his own nephew, no less - turn to the dark side, kill all the other recruits and join Empire 2.0. He sees Jedis, he sees catastrophe waiting to happen. He just needs convincing that won't be the case this time round.

The heroic thing would have been to abandon one ship, and hyper jump it into the enemy flagship so the Resistance can escape. Doing it as basically a last resort after all but two handfuls of Resistance members are left is just stupid if that was always an option.

Davroth:
The heroic thing would have been to abandon one ship, and hyper jump it into the enemy flagship so the Resistance can escape. Doing it as basically a last resort after all but two handfuls of Resistance members are left is just stupid if that was always an option.

Assuming it could be guaranteed to work and was known to be necessary.

A tactic of last resort is the least good option. Maybe it's hugely damaging (particularly to oneself), or a desperate roll of the dice because the chances of success are so small. It's what you do when you absolutely have to, not when there's still a potentially better alternative.

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

altnameJag:
I dunno, some wacky hothead plan involving hyperspace and bombracks pulled off due to sheer pluckiness and bravado. Standard Star Wars Hero plan.

Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.

Welcome to Space Magic 101. Today's lesion is that Space Magic trumps mortal technology.

This is why they don't bring this kind of stuff up in the other movies and just let any tactical victory be a tactical victory. We're not supposed to care about logistics.

Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.

Nah. See, the FO could only detect life signs at about the range that their guns could do damage. If the Resistance kept up the chase for an hour or two before making a last jump into hyperspace, there'd be plenty of time for a medium transport to sneak past the inevitability lax security the FO left around the dead planet...or at least, that's how the Hail Mary plan was supposed to work out.

Did they establish the range of the scanners? I legit don't remember. And man would it be awkward if the Supremacy had better scanners on top of warp tracking.

Could the FO have thwarted it? I mean, yeah? Probably? Especially if Snoke wasn't distracted/bisected by Rey and Ren. It's a bad plan. It might be a better plan then "try to sneak about the enemy flagship, find which specific power conduit housed the tracking device, break that quietly with a hacker that really only has Maz's word going for him, and escape undetected, hoping to make it to hyperspace before anybody notices anything's amiss", but it's not a good plan. The Resistance didn't have the resources to make a good plan.

I mean, that's the problem. The resistance doesn't just not have the resources to make a good plan, they just plain don't have resources. You could just assume the rebels had as many people and equipment as the plot demanded but they've now hard established that the resistance is incapable of fighting the FO at any level at the start of the movie. At the end of the movie, calling them the resistance is comical.

What, Leia and Holdo got pissed that Poe launched their forces in a costly tactical victory because they wanted to launch their forces for a costly tactical victory later on?

I just rewatched (or re-heard rather) the whole review and yup, with the exception of some nitpicking that any dumb fantasy movie should be able to get away with (technicalities, really) I have to agree with pretty much all the criticisms. Holdo and Poe, Rey and Luke, Finn and Rose, etc.

MrCalavera:
The review made me realize i have a different problem with Holdo.

I wouldn't say her character is pointless, but... redundant? Yeah, that'd be the word. She's just there to provide Poe a chance for character arc, and then die. With a few small changes in the script, you could make an already established character, like Leia, serve the same purpose.

That would've worked like a charm. Erase Holdo (or have her equivalent die along with Ackbar), save us the space-whatever scene with Leia, focus on the conflict between her and Poe, have Leia sacrifice herself at the end instead.

Lol, 6 pages.

Marik2:
Lol, 6 pages.

And to think the whole argument can be summed up by the first minute of this vid:

crimson5pheonix:

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

Accurate, but at that point their material forces don't matter in the face of pixie dust the force.

Welcome to Space Magic 101. Today's lesion is that Space Magic trumps mortal technology.

This is why they don't bring this kind of stuff up in the other movies and just let any tactical victory be a tactical victory. We're not supposed to care about logistics.

Do you want the movies to be the same or do you want the movies to be different.

Like, blowing up the Death Star didn't prevent the Rebellion from getting its face kicked in on Hoth.

Well no, iirc they knew when they abandoned their other ships because they could scan the life signs on them. And yes, these people are descended from the same force that didn't fire on an escape pod just because it didn't have life signs (despite droids being a thing), but if we're supposed to care that tactics and strategy matter, what was her plan if they decided to search the only nearby planet where last they detected life signs?

And how were they going to hitch a ride anyway? They have no other forces anywhere and if the plan had succeeded perfectly, they'd have ~400 people. Too many to fit on the Millennium Falcon and too large for a stealthed ship (presumably since only tiny landing craft had been stealthed) to carry. Just having the FO leave a ship in orbit to search the debris would be enough to strand them there until they starved judging from the lack of food in the base.

Nah. See, the FO could only detect life signs at about the range that their guns could do damage. If the Resistance kept up the chase for an hour or two before making a last jump into hyperspace, there'd be plenty of time for a medium transport to sneak past the inevitability lax security the FO left around the dead planet...or at least, that's how the Hail Mary plan was supposed to work out.

Did they establish the range of the scanners? I legit don't remember. And man would it be awkward if the Supremacy had better scanners on top of warp tracking.

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Could the FO have thwarted it? I mean, yeah? Probably? Especially if Snoke wasn't distracted/bisected by Rey and Ren. It's a bad plan. It might be a better plan then "try to sneak about the enemy flagship, find which specific power conduit housed the tracking device, break that quietly with a hacker that really only has Maz's word going for him, and escape undetected, hoping to make it to hyperspace before anybody notices anything's amiss", but it's not a good plan. The Resistance didn't have the resources to make a good plan.

I mean, that's the problem. The resistance doesn't just not have the resources to make a good plan, they just plain don't have resources. You could just assume the rebels had as many people and equipment as the plot demanded but they've now hard established that the resistance is incapable of fighting the FO at any level at the start of the movie. At the end of the movie, calling them the resistance is comical.

What, Leia and Holdo got pissed that Poe launched their forces in a costly tactical victory because they wanted to launch their forces for a costly tactical victory later on?

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

Agema:

Davroth:
The heroic thing would have been to abandon one ship, and hyper jump it into the enemy flagship so the Resistance can escape. Doing it as basically a last resort after all but two handfuls of Resistance members are left is just stupid if that was always an option.

Assuming it could be guaranteed to work and was known to be necessary.

A tactic of last resort is the least good option. Maybe it's hugely damaging (particularly to oneself), or a desperate roll of the dice because the chances of success are so small. It's what you do when you absolutely have to, not when there's still a potentially better alternative.

Only reason Holdo's attack worked was because Hux deliberately ignored it, thinking it was jumping away as a distraction. I get the feeling this is a tactic that's A) hard to pull off if the enemy's wise to it, and B) so desperate most people wouldn't think of it/have clearance to disable enough safety features to pull it off.

Like, not every plane angles in for a kamikaze when they're getting shot down, you know?

altnameJag:
snip

Do you want the movies to be the same or do you want the movies to be different.

Like, blowing up the Death Star didn't prevent the Rebellion from getting its face kicked in on Hoth.

If they're going to be different, they can't half-ass it. We can't care about logistics up until it's pointed out that Leia and Holdo aren't very good at building a military. Because then the movie isn't different. TLJ isn't significantly different from previous SW movies despite all the lip service to "subverting expectations". However all the minor changes they tried mostly just raised questions about literally everyone's competence.

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Exactly. That's the problem. They're relying on the FO not noticing the last ship was empty before they fired on it/it jumped to hyperspace. Even if that happens, it's still a poor plan that's thwarted by even the smallest amount of caution on the part of the FO.

But the worst plan was engaging the FO at all with such meager forces. In the last movie. And presumably what they'd have done if they kept their forces.

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

"Cost of the war" is the problem here. Those forces Poe lost couldn't cost them the war. To cost the war, they would have to be integral to winning the war. The size of the force needed for the resistance to win the war will absolutely dwarf what Poe lost and render them strategically insignificant. They will be replaced a dozen times over for a single battle. All Leia and Holdo could do with that force in a war capacity is throw them at another suicide mission somewhere else.

Or they're going to have the hero fight the villain and render all material advantage meaningless because this is Star Wars and they can't do anything different, even when they try.

crimson5pheonix:

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Exactly. That's the problem. They're relying on the FO not noticing the last ship was empty before they fired on it/it jumped to hyperspace. Even if that happens, it's still a poor plan that's thwarted by even the smallest amount of caution on the part of the FO.

But the worst plan was engaging the FO at all with such meager forces. In the last movie. And presumably what they'd have done if they kept their forces.

I...what? Starkiller Base forced their hand. It was going to wipe them out from across the galaxy just like it did the Republic. The base they were leaving in TLJ was the base they were defending in TFA.

Had Starkiller Base not been a thing, the New Republic would've been powerful enough to stop the FO, and other Imperial remnants likely wouldn't've supported them.

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

"Cost of the war" is the problem here. Those forces Poe lost couldn't cost them the war. To cost the war, they would have to be integral to winning the war. The size of the force needed for the resistance to win the war will absolutely dwarf what Poe lost and render them strategically insignificant. They will be replaced a dozen times over for a single battle. All Leia and Holdo could do with that force in a war capacity is throw them at another suicide mission somewhere else.

Or they're going to have the hero fight the villain and render all material advantage meaningless because this is Star Wars and they can't do anything different, even when they try.

The first battl of the movie is literally the only time the Resistance had a choice to not engage. And they shouldn't've. At least by Leia's estimation in the immediate aftermath before they found out they got tracked. Those fighters and bomber fleet might've not "won the war", but they certainly could've been useful in the short term to help make sure there was anybody around to fight the war. As it is, they didn't even stall anything.

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

The characters don't get all the information we do.

Exactly. That's the problem. They're relying on the FO not noticing the last ship was empty before they fired on it/it jumped to hyperspace. Even if that happens, it's still a poor plan that's thwarted by even the smallest amount of caution on the part of the FO.

But the worst plan was engaging the FO at all with such meager forces. In the last movie. And presumably what they'd have done if they kept their forces.

I...what? Starkiller Base forced their hand. It was going to wipe them out from across the galaxy just like it did the Republic. The base they were leaving in TLJ was the base they were defending in TFA.

Had Starkiller Base not been a thing, the New Republic would've been powerful enough to stop the FO, and other Imperial remnants likely wouldn't've supported them.

Doubtful if the republic's military was contained to a single system. A single star system is nothing compared to the size of the galaxy and the FO has enough of a military force to forcibly take the galaxy. That means being able to attack defended worlds and patrol sectors. The republic military wasn't big enough to stop that, though it was large enough to be threatening. That's the problem with these movies, they went so far to make the good guys the underdogs that they've made them absolutely useless and completely not a threat to the villains. The resistance needs a military the size of the republic's before it got wiped out to be in the same position the rebels were in the original trilogy.

So unfortunately, the correct strategic move to have made in the previous movie was let Starkiller stay up. They didn't have the means to fight it and the FO. They would have had to make a diffuse force and really hide from the FO for decades until they built up their forces. Unfortunately, the writers wrote them as having lost the war before it began.

They wanted their pilots and ships alive instead of being sacrificed for a pointless tactical win, yes. That's kind the whole point of the movie "don't win the battle at the cost of the war". This isn't going to be a short fight. After the blitzkrieg, you build up a fighting force. We're still in the middle of that blitz. Even the people who had the ability to fight back after all of the New Republic got nuked were busy fighting the FO, or cowed into submission, because, holy shit, an entire system just got annihilated outta nowhere.

"Cost of the war" is the problem here. Those forces Poe lost couldn't cost them the war. To cost the war, they would have to be integral to winning the war. The size of the force needed for the resistance to win the war will absolutely dwarf what Poe lost and render them strategically insignificant. They will be replaced a dozen times over for a single battle. All Leia and Holdo could do with that force in a war capacity is throw them at another suicide mission somewhere else.

Or they're going to have the hero fight the villain and render all material advantage meaningless because this is Star Wars and they can't do anything different, even when they try.

The first battl of the movie is literally the only time the Resistance had a choice to not engage. And they shouldn't've. At least by Leia's estimation in the immediate aftermath before they found out they got tracked. Those fighters and bomber fleet might've not "won the war", but they certainly could've been useful in the short term to help make sure there was anybody around to fight the war. As it is, they didn't even stall anything.

They weren't going to stall anything anyway. I don't think you grasp just how badly the resistance is actually fucked by the writing. That chase was by the FO's flagship and 30 more star destroyers like the one they blew up earlier and that's not all of the FO's fleet. The rest of the fleet is out taking the galaxy while this is going on, so that's not even a large part of the fleet. They have manufacturing facilities and bases, and the resistance has no idea where any of them are because they've done no reconnaissance on the FO in the 30 year lead up. None of the now-former-republic manufacturing companies have their factories set up to compete with the FO's production capability so it'll be years before they can even start to arm any rebellion. If the original trilogy was a David vs Goliath scenario, this is an ant vs a titan scenario. The resistance actually literally has no moves it can play and won't for decades.

crimson5pheonix:

Doubtful if the republic's military was contained to a single system. A single star system is nothing compared to the size of the galaxy and the FO has enough of a military force to forcibly take the galaxy. That means being able to attack defended worlds and patrol sectors. The republic military wasn't big enough to stop that, though it was large enough to be threatening. That's the problem with these movies, they went so far to make the good guys the underdogs that they've made them absolutely useless and completely not a threat to the villains. The resistance needs a military the size of the republic's before it got wiped out to be in the same position the rebels were in the original trilogy.

So unfortunately, the correct strategic move to have made in the previous movie was let Starkiller stay up. They didn't have the means to fight it and the FO. They would have had to make a diffuse force and really hide from the FO for decades until they built up their forces. Unfortunately, the writers wrote them as having lost the war before it began.

Incorrect. Canonically, the New Republic was more than powerful enough to wipe out the First Order, just not powerful enough to wipe out the First Order and fight the rest of the Imperial Remnants at the same time.

They were the biggest dick on the block pre-Star Killer, but they couldn't out fight literally everybody. Least, not quickly.

And who's to say the FO can hold the Galaxy? Fighting is ongoing. We're in the middle of the blitz. Local Warlords are making their play, they just weren't willing/able to go all in on the FO's flagship fleet on short notice. The Empire couldn't hold the galaxy, and it started with control of most of it. We got plenty of fighting to go.

They weren't going to stall anything anyway. I don't think you grasp just how badly the resistance is actually fucked by the writing. That chase was by the FO's flagship and 30 more star destroyers like the one they blew up earlier and that's not all of the FO's fleet. The rest of the fleet is out taking the galaxy while this is going on, so that's not even a large part of the fleet. They have manufacturing facilities and bases, and the resistance has no idea where any of them are because they've done no reconnaissance on the FO in the 30 year lead up. None of the now-former-republic manufacturing companies have their factories set up to compete with the FO's production capability so it'll be years before they can even start to arm any rebellion. If the original trilogy was a David vs Goliath scenario, this is an ant vs a titan scenario. The resistance actually literally has no moves it can play and won't for decades.

No, the FO's flagship fleet wasn't made up of 30 Dreadnoughts, don't be silly. There's a reason Poe thought that was a Big Deal. The Resistance has been running hit-and-run freedom fighter/terror attacks on the FO for years, they're the one's who knew the FO was rearming in the first place. The FO just managed to have good OpSec for once with Starkiller.

altnameJag:

crimson5pheonix:

Doubtful if the republic's military was contained to a single system. A single star system is nothing compared to the size of the galaxy and the FO has enough of a military force to forcibly take the galaxy. That means being able to attack defended worlds and patrol sectors. The republic military wasn't big enough to stop that, though it was large enough to be threatening. That's the problem with these movies, they went so far to make the good guys the underdogs that they've made them absolutely useless and completely not a threat to the villains. The resistance needs a military the size of the republic's before it got wiped out to be in the same position the rebels were in the original trilogy.

So unfortunately, the correct strategic move to have made in the previous movie was let Starkiller stay up. They didn't have the means to fight it and the FO. They would have had to make a diffuse force and really hide from the FO for decades until they built up their forces. Unfortunately, the writers wrote them as having lost the war before it began.

Incorrect. Canonically, the New Republic was more than powerful enough to wipe out the First Order, just not powerful enough to wipe out the First Order and fight the rest of the Imperial Remnants at the same time.

You keep saying "imperial remnants", they all left to the outer rim and set up factories and made billions of credits. The FO IS the imperial remnants. They didn't gather a bunch of new people when they invaded, they've been consolidating their forces for decades.

Meanwhile, the republic cut their military by 90% before the FO attacked. This is all canon. The republic didn't have much of a military and the FO outnumbered them. With just the dispatch they sent against the resistance in TLJ, they could have alpha struck the republic military and likely would have won. It's just that Starkiller was smarter.

They were the biggest dick on the block pre-Star Killer, but they couldn't out fight literally everybody. Least, not quickly.

And who's to say the FO can hold the Galaxy? Fighting is ongoing. We're in the middle of the blitz. Local Warlords are making their play, they just weren't willing/able to go all in on the FO's flagship fleet on short notice. The Empire couldn't hold the galaxy, and it started with control of most of it. We got plenty of fighting to go.

The empire had de facto control of the galaxy apart from a couple of criminal empires that were more trouble than they were worth. The FO is poised to take all the territory the empire had. The republic had less of a military than the rebels had at the end of episode 6. The resistance didn't even exist before they lost their "fleet".

They weren't going to stall anything anyway. I don't think you grasp just how badly the resistance is actually fucked by the writing. That chase was by the FO's flagship and 30 more star destroyers like the one they blew up earlier and that's not all of the FO's fleet. The rest of the fleet is out taking the galaxy while this is going on, so that's not even a large part of the fleet. They have manufacturing facilities and bases, and the resistance has no idea where any of them are because they've done no reconnaissance on the FO in the 30 year lead up. None of the now-former-republic manufacturing companies have their factories set up to compete with the FO's production capability so it'll be years before they can even start to arm any rebellion. If the original trilogy was a David vs Goliath scenario, this is an ant vs a titan scenario. The resistance actually literally has no moves it can play and won't for decades.

No, the FO's flagship fleet wasn't made up of 30 Dreadnoughts, don't be silly. There's a reason Poe thought that was a Big Deal. The Resistance has been running hit-and-run freedom fighter/terror attacks on the FO for years, they're the one's who knew the FO was rearming in the first place. The FO just managed to have good OpSec for once with Starkiller.

I'm sorry to say, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary is canon and they describe the forces at the disposal of the FO during that chase sequence and it details that the FO had 30 star destroyers with them on top of the Supremacy. No, the FO really does outnumber everyone that hard.

crimson5pheonix:

I'm sorry to say, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi: The Visual Dictionary is canon and they describe the forces at the disposal of the FO during that chase sequence and it details that the FO had 30 star destroyers with them on top of the Supremacy. No, the FO really does outnumber everyone that hard.

Watching the movie, the First Order fleet had nine Star Destroyers (either Imperial or Super class) along with Snoke's Mega Star Destroyer. And by your logic, because they were destroyed by the Raddus's kamikaze attack, they weren't any danger to the Raddus and the remaining Resistance members.

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