So The Fall of Gondolin Book released, the final Middle-Earth book to be released.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39798828-the-fall-of-gondolin

Christopher Tolkien himself says this will be his last book he will edit and publish. The end of his father's work in the Middle Earth universe.

And it ends with releasing the very first thing J.R.R.Tolkien attempted to write about Middle Earth from skectches he made during World War 1.

The book has a written narrative but also serves as an educational book to see how Tolkien's writing and story has developed over the years with plot points completely different before and after.

(Case in point Beren was portrated as an Elf, not a Human)

So the last book to be published by Tolkien's son Christopher, and Chris is in his mid-90s so he could be dead tomorrow for all I know. Whats gonna happen to the Tolkien estate after he dies?

Samtemdo8:
Whats gonna happen to the Tolkien estate after he dies?

Probably not much.

We'll still get licenced works (e.g. the Amazon TV series), but I doubt there'll be any books published. Certainly not in-universe.

No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

Because they are really boring, originally intended as being a setting for him to play around with invented languages, rather than stories people want to read? That'd be my first guess.

Second that they were written generations ago and haven't aged as well.

Thaluikhain:

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

Because they are really boring, originally intended as being a setting for him to play around with invented languages, rather than stories people want to read? That'd be my first guess.

Second that they were written generations ago and haven't aged as well.

And yet people constantly say that most fantasy franchises and universes are just copy-pasted Tolkien Fanfiction and not ask themselves that these Fantasy universes are superior to Tolkien's work or at least imrpoved upon Tolkien's foundation?

I can confidantly say that Warhammer Fantasy is the pinnicle of Tolkien-esque Fantasy. It perfected all the races, stories, and settings, and character tropes that Tolkien established.

...Despite the End Times.

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

Other than those two I've attempted and failed to read the Silmarillion and managed to read The Children of Hurin. Wasn't a fan. Hasn't exactly convinced me to read his other works

Palindromemordnilap:

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

Other than those two I've attempted and failed to read the Silmarillion and managed to read The Children of Hurin. Wasn't a fan. Hasn't exactly convinced me to read his other works

What chapter did you stop at the Simarillion?

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Not sure where you got that conclusion. I mean, it may be right, but I at least have read the Silmarillion and a bit of other LotR stuff (if we include the Games Workshop sourcebooks, that "little" becomes a "lot").

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

If you're talking about the former, it's because the barrier to entry is much, MUCH higher. If we're talking about the latter, not sure what the evidence is (there's a similar divide between the main series and spinoffs), but not only is the barrier to entry still higher, but both Harry Potter and A Song of Ice and Fire have the benefit of their authors being alive, and being relatively recent IPs. Lord of the Rings? Not so much.

Samtemdo8:

I can confidantly say that Warhammer Fantasy is the pinnicle of Tolkien-esque Fantasy. It perfected all the races, stories, and settings, and character tropes that Tolkien established.

...Despite the End Times.

Look, I'm not going to piss on another man's pie, but...really?

I can't even really call WHF "Tolkien-esque fantasy," because its inspirations can largely exist without it. Yeah, you've got orcs, dwarfs, orcs, and halflings, but apart from that last part, each is reasonably distinct. It carries none of the themes over from LotR, or the storytelling style, or the structure. I mean, I LIKE WFB, but I'd never cite it as Tolkien-esque, rather "if you're going to take inspiration from LotR, this is a good example of taking baseline concepts and then going in your own direction."

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Not sure where you got that conclusion. I mean, it may be right, but I at least have read the Silmarillion and a bit of other LotR stuff (if we include the Games Workshop sourcebooks, that "little" becomes a "lot").

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

If you're talking about the former, it's because the barrier to entry is much, MUCH higher. If we're talking about the latter, not sure what the evidence is (there's a similar divide between the main series and spinoffs), but not only is the barrier to entry still higher, but both Harry Potter and A Song of Ice and Fire have the benefit of their authors being alive, and being relatively recent IPs. Lord of the Rings? Not so much.

Samtemdo8:

I can confidantly say that Warhammer Fantasy is the pinnicle of Tolkien-esque Fantasy. It perfected all the races, stories, and settings, and character tropes that Tolkien established.

...Despite the End Times.

Look, I'm not going to piss on another man's pie, but...really?

I can't even really call WHF "Tolkien-esque fantasy," because its inspirations can largely exist without it. Yeah, you've got orcs, dwarfs, orcs, and halflings, but apart from that last part, each is reasonably distinct. It carries none of the themes over from LotR, or the storytelling style, or the structure. I mean, I LIKE WFB, but I'd never cite it as Tolkien-esque, rather "if you're going to take inspiration from LotR, this is a good example of taking baseline concepts and then going in your own direction."

That is what I mean overall in regards to Warhammer so yeah.

Tolkienesque seems to just mean fantasy. Its more about riding in the coat tails of Tolkien than actually being anything like it.

I've read the Silmarillion twice. There are sections that are well fleshed out and are more interesting. But there is a lot of boring stuff

trunkage:
Tolkienesque seems to just mean fantasy. Its more about riding in the coat tails of Tolkien than actually being anything like it.

I've read the Silmarillion twice. There are sections that are well fleshed out and are more interesting. But there is a lot of boring stuff

The ealier parts of the book were the setups even though it does have a story to tell.

The character of Feanor and the creation of the Silmarils are a story in their own right.

After Feanor died the story rather meanders, setting up things like the Noldor in Middle Earth (in a region known as Beleriand) and the establishment of cities such as Nargothrond and Gondolin.

The payoff stories happen during and after Fingolfin challenges Morgoth and jeez I want to see that fight on screen right now:

trunkage:
Tolkienesque seems to just mean fantasy. Its more about riding in the coat tails of Tolkien than actually being anything like it.

Not really. The actual definition is "resembling or influenced by the works, ideas, or literary style of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien." Which of course is incredibly vague, but a work can be said to be Tolkienesque if it:

-Follows his style of writing (which isn't that common, most writing, fantasy or otherwise, is much more streamlined)

-Follows his themes/motifs

-Bears heavy resemblance to his worldbuilding

So, or instance, something like Shannara and Wheel of Time can be said to be Tolkienesque - both have similar motifs (good places are green and verdant, bad places are badlands), similar tropes (dark lords with disposable armies of evil creatures), similar races (elves, dwarfs, etc.), and similar plot structure (Sword of Shannara and Eye of the World are more or less abridged versions of the LotR trilogy). Both Shannara and Wheel of Time carved more of an identity for themelves over time, but the influence they owe from Lord of the Rings remains clear.

In contrast, something like A Song of Ice and Fire isn't Tolkienesque. The world owes nothing to Middle-earth tropes (Tolkien takes inspiration primarily from myths, ASoIaF takes inspiration primarily from the War of the Roses), or themes (if anything, it's the opposite of them), or style of worldbuilding. Something like ASoIaF could exist entirely separate from Tolkien. Or, in other words, Shannara and Wheel of Time likely wouldn't exist if not for Lord of the Rings. Game of Thrones? Not so much.

So, yes, Tolkien's regarded as the granddaddy of the genre, but there's plenty within the genre that is its own thing. It's a stigma that's never gone away (Steven Erikson for example resented the insinuation that he used LotR as an inspiration for Malazan, when in reality it came from his DnD campaigns, making pains to point out that he'd never read Lord of the Rings), but it's a stigma that doesn't apply for the whole genre.

Samtemdo8:
What chapter did you stop at the Simarillion?

This was about 15 years ago, give or take, so I don't remember exact chapter details I'm afraid. I just remember reading the stuff about Morgoth and his big grand war...and being really bored with it. And something in my head just rebelled against the idea that you could take one of the most epic moments of history in the world you've created and make it so utterly dull for someone else to sit through. And I had to put the book back on the library shelf because after that I could go no further.

And if we're going to be getting on to A Song of Ice and Fire versus the Lord of the Rings then I'm firstly going to point out that people are most likely inspired the ongoing and very popular TV show rather than the books themselves for Martin's works. And secondly I'm going to post this

Palindromemordnilap:

Samtemdo8:
What chapter did you stop at the Simarillion?

This was about 15 years ago, give or take, so I don't remember exact chapter details I'm afraid. I just remember reading the stuff about Morgoth and his big grand war...and being really bored with it. And something in my head just rebelled against the idea that you could take one of the most epic moments of history in the world you've created and make it so utterly dull for someone else to sit through. And I had to put the book back on the library shelf because after that I could go no further.

And if we're going to be getting on to A Song of Ice and Fire versus the Lord of the Rings then I'm firstly going to point out that people are most likely inspired the ongoing and very popular TV show rather than the books themselves for Martin's works. And secondly I'm going to post this

At least Tolkien manages to release books even after he died :P

Thaluikhain:

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

Because they are really boring, originally intended as being a setting for him to play around with invented languages, rather than stories people want to read? That'd be my first guess.

Second that they were written generations ago and haven't aged as well.

Seconded. The Simarillion has a handful of decent short stories, but the vast bulk is boring fluff.

skywolfblue:
Seconded. The Simarillion has a handful of decent short stories, but the vast bulk is boring fluff.

Indeed; The Silmarillion is pretty much a framework to hold and contextualise some more detailed stories (e.g. Fall of Gondolin, Tale of Beren and Luthien) and the background of LoTR. It's thus a kind of a history book, in a sense; or one of those cash-in encyclopedias which modern fantasy series seem to spawn with an ongoing plot.

While it's my favorite book, the Silmarillion can be divided into 3 parts:
1) Everything you need to know in order to understand Beren and Luthien; 2) Beren and Luthien; 3) Epilogue of Beren and Luthien

Thaluikhain:
Because they are really boring, originally intended as being a setting for him to play around with invented languages, rather than stories people want to read? That'd be my first guess.

If you ask me, everything that Tolkien has written is boring as hell. I could never get into LoTR. Not even a little bit. I couldn't get into the books or movies or even video games. I can't put my finger on why exactly. Something about the lore doesn't sit right with me. Which is strange because I enjoy other fantasy works with elves, dwarves and other Tolkien-esque things. It's just Tolkien's stuff that I find excruciatingly boring and pointless.

Adam Jensen:

Thaluikhain:
Because they are really boring, originally intended as being a setting for him to play around with invented languages, rather than stories people want to read? That'd be my first guess.

If you ask me, everything that Tolkien has written is boring as hell. I could never get into LoTR. Not even a little bit. I couldn't get into the books or movies or even video games. I can't put my finger on why exactly. Something about the lore doesn't sit right with me. Which is strange because I enjoy other fantasy works with elves, dwarves and other Tolkien-esque things. It's just Tolkien's stuff that I find excruciatingly boring and pointless.

Because you haven't read the good parts yet.

Like how epic the duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth was with Tolkien's writing and description of it would make for a sick movie.

How the Fair Luthien Tinuviel was able to accomplish where armies and great warriors failed by actually able to steal a Silmaril from Morgoth's head.

Turin Turambar's entire life story.

The tragedy of the Fall of Gondolin and the epic fight against Balrogs that the Elves pulled off.

And the fuckin War of Wrath where the climax was an epic battle in the sky between Eagles and Dragons with the hero Earendil riding a literal flying ship!!!

image

And of course we have the Second Age that concluded with the Fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.

Adam Jensen:
If you ask me, everything that Tolkien has written is boring as hell.

Quite likely.

Tolkein's prose is somewhat ponderous and leaden, even by the standards of the time he wrote. (Even more so nowadays, as fiction writing has become more refined towards faster pace and ease of reading.) The other thing is that because Tolkein was the principal influence that caused the genre of fantasy to flourish, people who've already read lots of fantasy before Tolkein have probably ploughed through 20 million of the derivative tropes he started, so they're not even experiencing much that's new.

Agema:

Adam Jensen:
If you ask me, everything that Tolkien has written is boring as hell.

Quite likely.

Tolkein's prose is somewhat ponderous and leaden, even by the standards of the time he wrote. (Even more so nowadays, as fiction writing has become more refined towards faster pace and ease of reading.) The other thing is that because Tolkein was the principal influence that caused the genre of fantasy to flourish, people who've already read lots of fantasy before Tolkein have probably ploughed through 20 million of the derivative tropes he started, so they're not even experiencing much that's new.

And yet the sheer hypocrisy when people refer to other Fantasy works as just ripping off Lord of the Rings :P

So make up your mind internet reviewers, do you like Tolkien, or do you like Fantasy stuff that came afterward more?

And regarding Tolkien's prose, do I have to write an entire paragraph example of a chapter to prove Tolkien knows how to write an epic?

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Read most of them and actually liked them. But that was a long time ago and i had little other exposure to fantasy, only to fairy tales, so most of the stuff was still new and exciting.

Agema:

skywolfblue:
Seconded. The Simarillion has a handful of decent short stories, but the vast bulk is boring fluff.

Indeed; The Silmarillion is pretty much a framework to hold and contextualise some more detailed stories (e.g. Fall of Gondolin, Tale of Beren and Luthien) and the background of LoTR. It's thus a kind of a history book, in a sense; or one of those cash-in encyclopedias which modern fantasy series seem to spawn with an ongoing plot.

yes, reading the silmarillion give you a lot more context when you get to other books. Like who's Tom and what is really gandalf... I'm glad i readed it, but it was painfull for almost the first half. i've read unfinished tales too which are interresting until you realised why the book is call unfinished tales...

Samtemdo8:
Because you haven't read the good parts yet.

I find the whole Middle-Earth setting dull.

Adam Jensen:

Samtemdo8:
Because you haven't read the good parts yet.

I find the whole Middle-Earth setting dull.

What fantasy setting you don't find dull?

Unless you find it all dull because judging by your avatar you prefer Science Fiction?

As i understand, there's a reason "Silmarillion" is called The Bible of Middleearth. It follows a chronicle structure, rather that of a normal story, no? That's why i was always hesitant to start it. Fun for picking up bits and pieces of lore. Not so much for actual reading.

BTW: That, do a degree applies to most of Tolkien's works. He was great at creating a setting, but there were better story writers than him.

Samtemdo8:
What fantasy setting you don't find dull?

Unless you find it all dull because judging by your avatar you prefer Science Fiction?

I love fantasy. I just have a problem with Tolkien.

Adam Jensen:

Samtemdo8:
What fantasy setting you don't find dull?

Unless you find it all dull because judging by your avatar you prefer Science Fiction?

I love fantasy. I just have a problem with Tolkien.

Does your love of fantasy still include a Medieval like setting with Castles and Knights and Wizards and Rogues and Dragons? Of course with aspects of it that makes it different from Tolkien mind you.

Or you like the different kind of fantasy like Harry Potter or A Christmas Carol?

The Hobbit and The Lord

Thaluikhain:

Samtemdo8:
No one here has read Tolkien's books other then the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings?

Or only just watched the movies?

Why are Tolkien's other Middle Earth books not as well versed than Harry Potter and Song of Ice and Fire?

Because they are really boring, originally intended as being a setting for him to play around with invented languages, rather than stories people want to read? That'd be my first guess.

Also to amuse himself with real languages. Every character's name has a really on the nose meaning in old English or a contemporary European language. We are eternally indebted to Tolkien for further building on Edward Plunkett, Lord Dunsany's earlier innovation in the field of fantastical world building, but The Hobbit is his only work worth reading for pleasure.

 

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