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Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 517 Joined: 18 Apr 2008     | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1952 Joined: 6 Sep 2008    | I would go even further than that and say people can do drugs without being addicted to them, and it is sorely overlooked. If you do cocaine or mushrooms, or anything really like once a month, if that, people should not try to lay the addiction trip on you, but that's the first thing they will go to. The notion of millions of responsible drug users escapes a lot of people, just because of a culture of emotional repression. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4631 Joined: 16 May 2008 |
sure it can, dopamine is the basis of almost all addictions. If you win a 5000 dollar jackpot, your body would no doubt flood you with so much dopamine that you'd feel higher then if you had just freebased. Your brain remembers that feeling, and wants to feel it again, so you gamble, and lose, and then your dopamine lowers, making you depressed. And everytime you lose, you know that if you try again, you just might have that magical orgasmic experience of winning 5000 dollars or even more next time, so you keep gambling, even if it hurts you. Almost all addictions (and all habits even - that's really no different then an addiction) are caused by a dopamine imbalance.. Sure, some chemicals can assist or make an addiction stronger, forming addictions and habits is central to the way the human brain works. |
Muckraker  Posts: 324 Joined: 24 Apr 2008   |
Interesting, I'd be interested to see how these compare to someone who's been denied access to an obsession. Do you think they'd be similar? |
Muckraker  Posts: 231 Joined: 11 Jul 2009    |
those arent addictions either. addictions dont exist. self control is the problem. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 561 Joined: 8 Apr 2008     |
Insightful, when i think about it I used to get my fix on Roller coasters. 30 bucks...all day...nice rush. Honestly they just need cheaper and more constructive addictions. But still, they need to face why they have the problem, the rush, and a alternative to said rush. Not keeping doing it and blame it on genes. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 738 Joined: 26 Jan 2009    | Anything can be an addiction really, it just has to affect your life or the lives of those around you negatively due to the time you spend doing something. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 556 Joined: 7 Apr 2009    | If only drug addictions counted as addictions, why would anyone bother to qualify the type of addiction further by saying "drug addiction". And of course the human body itself produces things that the human body may become dependent on in response to certain stimuli(see adrenaline junkie as an example). Thus you cannot say that people aren't addicted to certain activities. Besides which I object to your use of obsessive/compulsive disorder. The people who suffer from those disorders don't feel the need to do things. They mostly just do them. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 753 Joined: 16 Jul 2009     | As already mentioned, the release of endorphins in the brain more often than usual can be the concept for an addiction, such as someone shopping releases more endorphins than usual, making them happy and possibly making them want to do it again. Addiction is something that upsets the brain balance and begins to become habitual, hence an addict because they regularly do it regardless of the long-term side effects that usually come from prolonged exposure to most common addictions.
There's a bit of a problem there. It's definitely survivable, but you can't do it on your own since the body convinces itself that it needs the substance and begins to use it's usual functions to tell you that it requires something. For shopping and other non-lethal addictions, you can become highly anxious or other emotions become dominant that you think can only be swayed by doing what you enjoy. (particularly for shopping) find some cheap reason to persuade your conscience that it's okay. As for heroin and etc...Your brain has convinced itself that it needs heroin and you will be looking for every excuse to get a shot of it. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 56 Joined: 19 Nov 2009   |
On a random note, I've actually fully read the first post, then decided to check the definitons of the words "Addiction" and "Obsession". Once you get past all of the different songs and tv episodes named after the words, they basically can be used for either or, with Obsessions used for random things you find yourself unable to stop thinking about or are "obssessed" or "addicted" to, while "addictions" are usually the common things you think about, such as Drug, Drinking, Eating, Video Game, and other such "obsessable" things. So yeah, they're basically homonyms. Tomato Tomato, Potato Potato (you know what I mean... I dunno how to spell the different pronunciations for that example, but I know you get it). |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3938 Joined: 21 May 2008   |
Probably some symptoms are similar. Addiction can affect you physically. You become ill or something like it. Obsession will affect you mentally. However, it won't touch you to the physical level if you don't do something to affect your body ( A tatoo or cutting yourself). |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 355 Joined: 18 Mar 2008  | About a week ago, after finally being able to bring my xbox to school and having just aquired AC2 and L4D2, I sat down and played for about 5 hours straight. My roommate was out in our floor's lounge when another kid from our floor asks where I and a girl from our floor are. My roommate tells him that I'm playing games still and that the girl is passed out from intoxication. The kid replies that they should have an intervention for me since I'm aparently "addicted" to my xbox,. The girl and pretty much everyone on my floor (including the kid saying this) could be classified as an alcoholic except for me, since I dont drink, and I'M the one who needs an intervention? Just thought I'd post this here, been wanting to get that off my chest for awhile. |
Paperboy  Posts: 12 Joined: 17 Oct 2008     | The OP is naturally entitled to his opinion, and to be fair, he's pretty close to the mark with his stance on gambling addiction. Gambling "addiction" is a more colloquial term, and not diagnostic. Pathological gambling is an impulse-control disorder (which has obsessive tendencies, but is not an obsession per se) of which a symptom is anxiety and irritability when cutting back. I think this is what people are talking about when going on about withdrawal symptoms. But yes, there are both physiological and psychological addictions with their own withdrawal symptoms. And while physiological withdrawal symptoms are more severe, it doesn't mean psychological withdrawal effects aren't diagnostic. And if you want some extra reading material to figure out why gambling is so much more addictive than traditional reinforcement schemes read up on intermittent reinforcement. That's the process involved with gambling addiction. A little part of me dies inside when I respond to threads like these... |
Muckraker  Posts: 288 Joined: 15 Apr 2009    |
Another face in the crowd. "I'm not sure thats a good ide- gunshot |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1783 Joined: 4 Aug 2009  | You can get addicted to anything really, at the end of the day it all boils down to the mind of the person. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 178 Joined: 25 Aug 2008    | You sir have obviously never met a WoW addict. Especially someone who is into the hardcore end game stuff. (me 6 months ago) It was easier to quit smoking than it was to quit WoW. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 88 Joined: 12 Sep 2008   |
You should know that you can't easily access a lot research papers without being enrolled in a univeristy, or paying an access fee. I'll look up a few papers I can find, if I can remember the names. If you're currently enrolled in a university you should easily be able to find them yourself with the vast online libraries that contain academic journals and the like. Edit: http://www.springerlink.com/content/h35n579445314l8r/ This study provides evidence that gambling can replace another addiction (alcohol or other drugs). You'll probably have to pay to view this one. But there's an abstract. www.sma.org.sg/smj/4205/4205cr2.pdf This pdf is a case study of a 32 year old Asian woman who is addicted to gambling. http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/50/8/1021#SEC1 This is a decent article written by a fairly well established woman, Nancy M. Petry, Ph.D from Harvard University who works with various forms of addiction. Happy yet? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1155 Joined: 16 Aug 2009  | You can suffer adverse effects from gaming withdrawal. Therefore it can be classed as an addiction if certain other requirements are met. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 517 Joined: 18 Apr 2008 |
I'm enrolled at a university with access to all the big journal sources. Just give me their APA cites and I can look em up. I'm not trying to shut you down by asking for sources, by the way. I'm genuinely interested in the subject and have been considering doing research in the area. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1580 Joined: 29 Jul 2009  | Of course it is an addiction. People can get addicted to practically anything. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 88 Joined: 12 Sep 2008 |
Well I don't really have time to do research for someone else right now, but I recommend you start your search at LexisNexis Academic, as that database has access to a very large number of medical journals and studies. http://www.lexisnexis.com/us/lnacademic/search/homesubmitForm.do Just use whatever keywords are relevent to your research (Obviously.) You should be able to find whatever you're looking for rather quickly if your keywords are specific enough. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2359 Joined: 1 Mar 2009 | Habits, not addictions. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 666 Joined: 21 Sep 2008 | Gaming, TV, and gambling turn into obsessions, but not an addiction, or at least not the same way smoking or cocaine gets you addicted. Withdrawls from non-drugs are less severe. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 517 Joined: 18 Apr 2008 |
I was asking for the backup for your posts, lol. I can do my own research, I wanted to see what backed your statements, though. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2102 Joined: 1 Jun 2009 | Uhh, its a word? Sure, it may not be as addictive as drugs or narcotics, but you'd still be amazed at what people do to fuel them. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1409 Joined: 10 May 2008 | While not entirely on subject, there is alot of mentions of stuff that get branded "disease" without even being close to true, best example i can think of is obesity, i seriously get mad whenever some ignorant person says its a disease, hell, im a big guy myself, about 30kg overweight, and even i know that it isnt a disease, there are always ways to loose weight, it's all about personal will and strength, branding something as a disease is just a scape-goat for the real issue, same with branding things as an addiction when they really arent. |
Muckraker  Posts: 275 Joined: 7 Nov 2006 | Here's one of the first results on Pubmed about gambling and withdrawal: "Despite clinical reports of other withdrawal-like symptoms, the DSM-IV considers only restlessness/irritability as a withdrawal-like criterion comprising pathological gambling disorder (PGD). We explored whether this criterion should be broadened to include other gambling withdrawal-like symptoms.Community-recruited adult gamblers (n = 312) participated in telephone interviews about gambling and related behaviors as a part of a larger psychometric study. Frequency and chi-square analyses described the association of gambling withdrawal-like symptoms by gambling disorder status. Multinomial forward selection logistic regression obtained a multivariate model describing the simultaneous relationship between these symptoms and gambling disorder status. One-quarter of the sample experienced the DSM-IV PGD criterion of restlessness/irritability. However, 41% experienced additional gambling withdrawal-like symptoms when attempting to quit or control gambling. A model including restlessness/irritability and three additional non-DSM-IV withdrawal-like symptoms (i.e. feelings of anger, guilt, and disappointment) is a stronger model of gambling disorder (chi(2) = 217.488; df = 8, p < 0.0001; R(2) = 0.5428; p < 0.0001) than restlessness/irritability alone (chi(2) = 151.278; df = 2, p < 0.0001; R(2) = 0.4133). The overlap of gambling withdrawal-like symptoms with substance use withdrawal (11%) and depressive symptoms (34%) failed to fully account for these associations with gambling disorder status.Future PGD conceptualization and potential criteria revisions for DSM-V may warrant a broader inclusion of gambling withdrawal-like symptoms." Cunningham-Williams, et al. 2009 After being crit by that text wall the TL;DR version is that people experience withdrawal from attempting/quitting gambling, and they are making the argument more criteria should be included. Yes people over use the term, "i'm addicted to them," but people can become legitimately addicted to things like this, It has to do the the reward-schedule and the response your brain has to them. For example, the most addictive reward-schedule is a completely random one (surprise surprise like gambling). Your brain does release it's on chemicals in response to these rewards and hence, you can become physically dependent on them - another example is people who are addicted to sex/masturbation. Oh, and to the point about disease here are some of the definitions from a google search: an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs. It may be caused by external factors, such as invading organisms, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases. hmmm - by those definitions addiction would fall into the category of disease, because it certainly falls under the abnormal functioning, but hey, i'm sure you're better qualified to determine the definition, and whether addiction falls under it. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1223 Joined: 21 Feb 2008    |
Um... Yeah... You do know that in the DSM-IV (a fancy book filled with things like "diagnostic criteria") requires that an addiction have an adverse effect, right? And that neurological studies actually shows that people who are addicted to things like gambling actually experience the same kind of high (endorphin rush) that one can get from other sources which you would call an "addition", and that the lack of such a high actually does bring about withdrawal symptoms? If do you know all that, and have done the research, spoken to psychologists, read peer-reviewed journals, I'm curious how you came to your conclusion. But, I'm betting you didn't do any of that. Instead, you're a self-righteous prig who (in opposition to the standing body of evidence) wants to make the issue about self-control. See, the irony is, you think it's not an addiction mostly because you don't have it. You can play video games, gamble, eat, do plenty of other things to which other people are addicted, and not suffer any adverse consequences. Because you aren't addicted you defy the idea that one can be addicted to those things.
So, the only "diseases" are ones caused by something purely physiological, and which can only be resolved through medicine? Here's the thing: the brain is purely physiological, so the only difference between heroin addiction and what you would consider a "real" disease is the level of severity (perhaps) and the ability to self-correct. Thus, a cold isn't a "disease", since I get over it on my own (by ridding my body of the afflicting substances in my body), and it's nowhere near as serious as MS. But, I'd bet that if you actually talked to a cancer survivor, or an MS patient, and asked them "is a cold a disease" they're not going to say "of course not, it's nowhere near as terrible as what I have". Your hyperbolic, and melodramatic, hypothetical only makes sense unless you look at it reasonably. There are many diseases which aren't in the same group as MS, but you'd not doubt that having strep throat is a disease.
[citation needed]. I love the self-righteous part again, and I really like the conspiracy theory. But without evidence to back up that the entirety of the psychology and neurology communities are corrupt to the core and lying about the evidence they see and research they do, you're simply without any basis for your claims. |
On the Record  Posts: 6426 Joined: 7 Mar 2008   |
paraphrasing the words of Phillip K Dick in the afterword of A Scanner Darkly, drug addiction is not a disease, it's a choice. you chose to do the what the drug, you didn't need it you chose it. it's much like walking in front of a bus, you chose to walk in front of the bus. i'm kinda sick of people saying it's a disease but it's part of a trend to remove blame and personal responsibility from one's own actions. it's easier to say it was the drugs causing you to do that than you admitting that you were a jack ass and did all that bad stuff of your own volition |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1223 Joined: 21 Feb 2008 |
You're funny when you're completely wrong. I mean, even ignoring your apparent hatred for both punctuation and capital letters, your interpretation of the issue is simply at odds with both the medical community, and the scientific community at large. Anecdotal evidence, personal experience, and folksy wisdom may be entertaining (and even persuade people who don't know what they're talking about), but it takes a true level of ignorance to attempt to present you personal opinion as the god's honest truth. In this case, it's especially stupid, because you're incorrect. Are you attempting to say that the only way a disease is a disease is if it's incurable? MRSA is curable, so's syphillis, African Sleeping Sickness, Leprosy, Legionnaire's Disease, even cancer sometimes. Are those not diseases? And before you attempt a weak defense that those are "different", you said it yourself: The only evidence you bring that obesity isn't a disease is because "there are always ways to loose weight". But, the fact that one can repair the damage of, or even cure a, disease doesn't make it less of a disease. That brings us to that old lovely: "it's all about personal responsibility/willpower/strength/choices/effort ad infinitum". We hear this a lot, and it comes from the same place as what Dirty Apple said: if you aren't addicted to something, it's much more difficult to comprehend and accept other people being addicted. I'm not addicted to alcohol, so I can't really see how someone else could be unable to just put the glass down, but that's not proof that they can simply choose to stop drinking. And, not for nothing, but neuroscience has shown us time and again that there's no such thing as free will, it's all chemical reactions in the brain. If someone is miswired to overeat, and gain weight, why would you blame him or her for a defect? Would you refuse to call a mentally challenged person mentally challenged? Of course not. The fact that you may not share the defect doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are always ways to lose weight? Sure, for those people who aren't possessed of the mental defect that causes them to be overweight. For them, it's no more a simple "choice" than it is another person's "choice" to have Down's syndrome. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1223 Joined: 21 Feb 2008 |
You chose to have sex, therefore an STI isn't a disease. You chose to go to Africa, therefore Dengue Fever isn't a disease. You didn't need sex. You didn't need to go to Africa. You didn't need to do drugs. Do you see where your analysis breaks down completely? 'Cause it's about right there. If the schema is "anything you exposed yourself to which you didn't need to isn't a disease" I can accept that, but be consistent. Or, you know, you could read some of the scientific literature and discover (with what might be a shock) that people with addictions are actually neurologically wired differently. The fact that someone made a poor decision and got sick as a result doesn't make the sickness any less of a disease. If it does, I'd like you to please go tell people who got cancer from buildings with asbestos in them that they don't have a disease. Also, go find some HIV positive people to explain that they did it to themselves, and therefore it can't be a disease. Also, if you'd kindly, get your head out from your rectum and do some research before spouting self-righteous nonsense. |
Muckraker Posts: 275 Joined: 7 Nov 2006 |
While I agree with you somewhat about the attempt to remove responsibility, you also have to consider the definition of disease. Withdrawal/Addiction fall into that definition ("A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs. It may be caused by external factors, such as invading organisms, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases.") Yes, people should be held culpable while they are addicted, addiction/withdrawal does change the physiology going on in your body...to an abnormal state... |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 732 Joined: 22 Apr 2009  | The term addiction meerly refers to something that creates compulsive behavior. You are right in a sense, an addiction to heroin is more powerful than an addiction to gambling, but both of these things can create compulsive behaviors. The ultimate goal for someone addicted to either of these is to feel good. As a friend of mine who is a heavy drug user put it "if you try heroin once, you want to try it again." The same concept genuinely applies to anything that feels good, whether it's a fun videogame or MDMA. The term addiction is applied when someone obsesses over how good a certain behavior makes them feel, and begins to falter in the maintnence of their day to day life as a result. Often times what an addictive substance will do is simply simulate the chemical dopamine, which is one of the primary chemicals responsible for feeling good, the implication then is that substance addicts have simply bypassed the work stage (all the lost gambles, games, etc...) and simply arrived at the rewarding feeling, while the gambling or gaming addict does not get to bypass this stage. In both cases the desire for the rewarding feeling is so compelling that the addict can not think of anything else. Also, addiction is considered an illness for the same reason that dissassociative personality disorder or schizophrenia are considered illnesses. Just because something is psychological doesn't mean it can't be an illness. |
On the Record Posts: 6426 Joined: 7 Mar 2008 |
WRONG and bad analogy. the STI is a verifiable organism in your system and you also chose not to wear a condom. where is the virus for the addiction? there isn't one. so right there everything you said goes out the window with the bus analogy, like the addiction, there's no living aspect to it like there is with a virus. as for HIV, they did do it to themselves. they chose to have sex, they chose to not have a condom and they chose not to have both parties tested for HIV. totally their own fault that they had this happen to them. as for me i did do some research and could easily point out how flawed your logic is. also what i was saying is also from a former drug addict, who had many friends that were either killed or permanently disabled due to drug use. so maybe you should actually understand what i and he was saying about it. addiction is NOT a disease, there's no living aspect to it like there is with every other disease, such as the ones you listed. i didn't even need a medical degree to figure that one out. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 58 Joined: 30 Nov 2009     | Your own bias against the word addiction is your problem, not the worlds. Anything in which a person has such an attachment they suffer for it, can easily be labeled an addiction. And if you think gaming cannot have negative biological effects, I can stand as proof positive it has. From: Bad Eyesight: What I can almost bet you has come from one to many hours glued to a computer/TV. Like anything in life, too much will impact you negatively, more so than you may be willing to believe. |
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Sources plz.
<3