Jedi vs. sith...why?

 Pages 1 2 NEXT
 

Does it bother anyone else that there is no middle ground there, or at least a third option?

I mean, Do I have to be a Jedi, altruistic and numb, or a Sith, angry and cruel?
Can't I be altruistic and angry?

In kotor 2, I tried to roleplay a third option, a neutral stance...but I got fed up with being called a Jedi, or a Sith whenever I did something "good" or "evil".

What do you guys think?

There are bounty hunters in star wars.

Because there is good, and there is evil. That is the eternal struggle.

You can sort-of see a middle ground with non-force parties, however. Such as bounty hunters.

star wars is pretty much the most black and white story ever made, either total evil or absolute good. that's why i don't like it.

okay i don't like it cause the pacing sucks. don't have time to sit through 4 hours of delegation, i want to see limbs lost.

bounty hunters. I'd be that, just work for whoever pays the most, thats what i do in real life aswell, lol.

oranger:
Does it bother anyone else that there is no middle ground there, or at least a third option?

I mean, Do I have to be a Jedi, altruistic and numb, or a Sith, angry and cruel?
Can't I be altruistic and angry?

In kotor 2, I tried to roleplay a third option, a neutral stance...but I got fed up with being called a Jedi, or a Sith whenever I did something "good" or "evil".

What do you guys think?

Kinda surprised you had KotOR 2 as your example, since Kreia is a perfect example of walking the line between the extremes. Jolee from KotOR 1 was, too, even if he did lean Light Side and got pissed off if you went evil.

I was sort of thinking this a while ago. What is the middle ground in star wars? It's just a guess but I would say mercinaries (sorry for the bad spelling). They may do eveil deeds but they do what they are paid to do, if paid they would probably do a good deed. However mecineries are usually gun shooting jet pack flying types of guys, not the sabre weilding, force using guys so if it was a middle ground jedi you were looking for I don't have a clue.

They're older games and as such, one could argue they are not as developed or open as today's offerings.

Then again, in the Star Wars universe there are many 3rd party's.

There are Gray Jedi in star wars who are pretty much neutral anti-hero types. So, uh. There's your middle ground.

There are gray jedi, who are just jedi that are not a part of the order, but are not sith. They are referenced in KOTOR2 because you can get the grey jedi robe. The description of the robe gives some details on them.

Gray Jedi

neutral characters aren't really that exciting anyway
I mean would you rather fight in this epic struggle or just watch

Kavonde:

oranger:
Does it bother anyone else that there is no middle ground there, or at least a third option?

I mean, Do I have to be a Jedi, altruistic and numb, or a Sith, angry and cruel?
Can't I be altruistic and angry?

In kotor 2, I tried to roleplay a third option, a neutral stance...but I got fed up with being called a Jedi, or a Sith whenever I did something "good" or "evil".

What do you guys think?

Kinda surprised you had KotOR 2 as your example, since Kreia is a perfect example of walking the line between the extremes. Jolee from KotOR 1 was, too, even if he did lean Light Side and got pissed off if you went evil.

Well, kreia was looking for a third way, but the protagonist certainly wasn't allowed to, and that's why I brought up kotor 2..and as for bounty hunters, well...I want my lightning of course, and I believe in playing that zero sum game with the universe...but I'm not a psychopath you know?

Not sure, but I'd likely be among them.

I find the entire Jedi/Sith concept pretty asinine, especially when it comes to powers. Powers have no morality; only the people who use them, and how they use them determines that.

Honestly, I agree. I want to help the innocent, but for profit, zapping evil-doers (translation, those who piss me off) with Force Lightning! If you're not all the way good or all the way evil, you just can't seem to be able to use the Force or handle a lightsaber.

I always side with jedi. Sith skin is just bad and it's really a crap relationship with your teacher. If i was a jedi I would be a with the light but really stretching the rules.

Because the Jedi order and Sith order are two different groups.

Don't want to be a jedi or a sith? Don't follow either one of there paths and doctrine. The difference is at the level of Accountant and Engineer.

The Jedi seek to control there powers through patience and allowing it to manifest of its own accord through time and practice. A Jedi Master has a great deal of power, years of learning restraint and control prepares a Jedi Master to handle this power with the respect it deserves.

Sith let there emotions run wild and fuel there powers through anger, rage and loss. That's why the Sith grow powerfully so quickly. Though using your powers to seek revenge and the rush of power you can can lead to corruption, which is why the Jedi Order substane from it.

Bare in mind that Luke becomes so powerful because he uses both techniques. He lets his anger flow in his final battle agaisnt Vadar, however he still practices control and restraint. Luke is the balance in the force. The one who can use his emotions to fight without losing control of himself.

Now. Referring directly to the games that's because the gray area is basically "don't get involved, go home, crack open a beer".

The only way to be truly neutral in anything is to not have anything to do with it. So the game would consist of you staying at home and using your force powers to fold the laundry faster. That's not fun.

Finally. When it comes to force powers there is no such thing as dark side or light side. Mace Windu used Force Lightening if I am correct. He wasn't a sith.

While Fore Choking someone to death might be looked down on in the Jedi order and given a high five in the Sith forces if you choose to forge your own path you can do whatever you damn well want.

Note: I know the force isn't real. However there is more options then Jedi and Sith in the Star Wars universe. However the movies focus on particular fights and the games would just be piss boring without conflict.

i never thought the sith were all that evil. leave them to their own devices and they will only kill themselves.

They're the 2 biggest groups, but not the only ones.

There are, for example, the Jal-Shey, Gray Jedis who don't wish to affiliate themselves with the Jedi no more and the Altisian Jedi.

You can compare the pool of Force users a bit like the American party system; 2 big ones that everyone know and plenty of smaller groups hoovering around them.

Kagim:
Because the Jedi order and Sith order are two different groups.

Don't want to be a jedi or a sith? Don't follow either one of there paths and doctrine. The difference is at the level of Accountant and Engineer.

The Jedi seek to control there powers through patience and allowing it to manifest of its own accord through time and practice. A Jedi Master has a great deal of power, years of learning restraint and control prepares a Jedi Master to handle this power with the respect it deserves.

Sith let there emotions run wild and fuel there powers through anger, rage and loss. That's why the Sith grow powerfully so quickly. Though using your powers to seek revenge and the rush of power you can can lead to corruption, which is why the Jedi Order substane from it.

Bare in mind that Luke becomes so powerful because he uses both techniques. He lets his anger flow in his final battle agaisnt Vadar, however he still practices control and restraint. Luke is the balance in the force. The one who can use his emotions to fight without losing control of himself.

Now. Referring directly to the games that's because the gray area is basically "don't get involved, go home, crack open a beer".

The only way to be truly neutral in anything is to not have anything to do with it. So the game would consist of you staying at home and using your force powers to fold the laundry faster. That's not fun.

Finally. When it comes to force powers there is no such thing as dark side or light side. Mace Windu used Force Lightening if I am correct. He wasn't a sith.

While Fore Choking someone to death might be looked down on in the Jedi order and given a high five in the Sith forces if you choose to forge your own path you can do whatever you damn well want.

Note: I know the force isn't real. However there is more options then Jedi and Sith in the Star Wars universe. However the movies focus on particular fights and the games would just be piss boring without conflict.

*Sigh* There is always one isn't there...

OT: I can see the point of having the two groups as absolutes, symbolic of the struggle between good and evil, but I never understood why certain powers can only be used by the Sith and vice versa.

It is not true that there can be no grey in a in a black and white orientated conflict. If you have not read the watch series by Sergei Lukyanenko... do it. The Inquisition is a force of balance between light and dark that consists of powerful practitioners of both sides keeping rough equality.

As for does it annoy me that I can't play a middle ground, yes it does. Not so much because it is how I like playing (though it is) but more the fact I like being free to act as I see fit not what lord supermaster asks of me.

Iron Criterion:

Kagim:
Because the Jedi order and Sith order are two different groups.

Don't want to be a jedi or a sith? Don't follow either one of there paths and doctrine. The difference is at the level of Accountant and Engineer.

The Jedi seek to control there powers through patience and allowing it to manifest of its own accord through time and practice. A Jedi Master has a great deal of power, years of learning restraint and control prepares a Jedi Master to handle this power with the respect it deserves.

Sith let there emotions run wild and fuel there powers through anger, rage and loss. That's why the Sith grow powerfully so quickly. Though using your powers to seek revenge and the rush of power you can can lead to corruption, which is why the Jedi Order substane from it.

Bare in mind that Luke becomes so powerful because he uses both techniques. He lets his anger flow in his final battle agaisnt Vadar, however he still practices control and restraint. Luke is the balance in the force. The one who can use his emotions to fight without losing control of himself.

Now. Referring directly to the games that's because the gray area is basically "don't get involved, go home, crack open a beer".

The only way to be truly neutral in anything is to not have anything to do with it. So the game would consist of you staying at home and using your force powers to fold the laundry faster. That's not fun.

Finally. When it comes to force powers there is no such thing as dark side or light side. Mace Windu used Force Lightening if I am correct. He wasn't a sith.

While Fore Choking someone to death might be looked down on in the Jedi order and given a high five in the Sith forces if you choose to forge your own path you can do whatever you damn well want.

Note: I know the force isn't real. However there is more options then Jedi and Sith in the Star Wars universe. However the movies focus on particular fights and the games would just be piss boring without conflict.

*Sigh* There is always one isn't there...

OT: I can see the point of having the two groups as absolutes, symbolic of the struggle between good and evil, but I never understood why certain powers can only be used by the Sith and vice versa.

That's just something they do to give you more reasons to play as one of the two sides in the games.

If both sides had identical powers, it would basically just be a skin swap. Adding gameplay variation isn't that dumb of a development decision.

Rogue Jedi is a cool idea. A Jedi with his/her own sence of justice, fighting back the sith who want them to join and evading the 'good' Jedi who also want control.

Would make an interesting story and a game with an inevitable choice ending *rolleyes*

I think if you've got the Force Yoda's gonna track you down. But you do hear about rouge Jedi and shiz

As a huge Kotor 1 & 2 fan I would love some middle ground as I to walk that line. But in SW it's black & white good vs evil that whole thing. Kavonde was right Kreia is the best example of true middle.

I personally generally play grey characters, so I feel your pain. As discussed by other these people exist it is just that they are not major players in the story so they get little screen time. I mean no story spends much time talking about the neutral party unless they are trying to get them to fight in the grand war. It is sad but we grey people are forgotten often as we are not important to the main plot.

Maybe we will get a game at some point which doesn't force us to be good or evil, but allows us to choose the path we want. We can only hope as not everyone in the star wars galaxy can be as crazy as the Sith and the Jedi right?

I just wish the labor struggle in cloud city got more screen time, I mean the unions were working hard for workers rights, but did it make the movie?

Their are rebel's, your said middle ground, but everyone wants them dead for not being good or evil ,so they are killed off or are luck as hell

Broken Boy:
As a huge Kotor 1 & 2 fan I would love some middle ground as I to walk that line. But in SW it's black & white good vs evil that whole thing. Kavonde was right Kreia is the best example of true middle.

No its not. In particular they point out in the expanded universe (note this contradicts with Lucas' prequel series) that the force is not directly light or dark (emphasis on the yoda training scene Empire Strike Back). Its how you tap into it and use it. You can draw through concentration (control) or emotion (release) but that normally results in which kind of powers are manifested, you then are determined as to whether or not you are jedi or 'dark jedi' (this is an ideological belief, not all dark jedi are necessarily evil for example). I would like to point out there are no Sith (though apparently they are coming back in SWtoR). Sith is a race of people that first met with Jedi who left after the great schism.

oranger:
Does it bother anyone else that there is no middle ground there, or at least a third option?

I mean, Do I have to be a Jedi, altruistic and numb, or a Sith, angry and cruel?
Can't I be altruistic and angry?

In kotor 2, I tried to roleplay a third option, a neutral stance...but I got fed up with being called a Jedi, or a Sith whenever I did something "good" or "evil".

What do you guys think?

The reason for this is that Lucas was inspired by Greek mythology, who speaks in a battle of good versus evil, the Jedi and the Sith.

I always saw it as the sith that were the most human really.

They just got a little too corrupt along the way.

The Jedi are certainly not the good guys in my opinion. They shirk off all emotional responsibility. In my eyes they take the easy way out and punish any one who doesn't do the same.

The only reason the sith are bad is because they tend to be lead by sith lords like palpatine. Who actually is evil.

What is required to become a sith is basically just to feel emotion. What annoys me is that you never see someone with these powers that just decides.

'You know what. Fuck you with your ridiculous rules and self deprecation. And fuck you with your mindless hunger for power. I'm gonna stay in the middle. Feel some god damn emotion and not go around killing everyone. It's not always so cut and dry you fucking zealots.'

So I'm probably on the same page as you.

That middle option does exist, but it's not really a union of its own.

The Jedi order is pretty much like a monastery on a mountain: its followers are expected to give up worldly feelings and possessions to commit themselves fully to the Jedi order. The Sith are like those who give in to sin, living their lives however they want and living only for their own gain. It is fully possible to have a range in between, but in the Star Wars universe there doesn't seem to be much of an order to that effect.

kingcom:

Broken Boy:
As a huge Kotor 1 & 2 fan I would love some middle ground as I to walk that line. But in SW it's black & white good vs evil that whole thing. Kavonde was right Kreia is the best example of true middle.

No its not. In particular they point out in the expanded universe (note this contradicts with Lucas' prequel series) that the force is not directly light or dark (emphasis on the yoda training scene Empire Strike Back). Its how you tap into it and use it. You can draw through concentration (control) or emotion (release) but that normally results in which kind of powers are manifested, you then are determined as to whether or not you are jedi or 'dark jedi' (this is an ideological belief, not all dark jedi are necessarily evil for example). I would like to point out there are no Sith (though apparently they are coming back in SWtoR). Sith is a race of people that first met with Jedi who left after the great schism.

Well most don't read the novels & play the games all they have to go on is what they see in the movies. Can you deny that's not what they play off in the movies is light vs dark just so they don't have to explain the shades of gray.

Someone has to die.

Broken Boy:

kingcom:

Broken Boy:
As a huge Kotor 1 & 2 fan I would love some middle ground as I to walk that line. But in SW it's black & white good vs evil that whole thing. Kavonde was right Kreia is the best example of true middle.

No its not. In particular they point out in the expanded universe (note this contradicts with Lucas' prequel series) that the force is not directly light or dark (emphasis on the yoda training scene Empire Strike Back). Its how you tap into it and use it. You can draw through concentration (control) or emotion (release) but that normally results in which kind of powers are manifested, you then are determined as to whether or not you are jedi or 'dark jedi' (this is an ideological belief, not all dark jedi are necessarily evil for example). I would like to point out there are no Sith (though apparently they are coming back in SWtoR). Sith is a race of people that first met with Jedi who left after the great schism.

Well most don't read the novels & play the games all they have to go on is what they see in the movies. Can you deny that's not what they play off in the movies is light vs dark just so they don't have to explain the shades of gray.

To a point, then theres the whole Vader thing (again ignoring the prequels) thats an interesting character with a shade of grey, constantly trying to see if he has good in an evil character. What is he at the end of Return of the Jedi? Is he truly redeemed for that last act?

Yeah you never really see any real estate agents LOL.

 Pages 1 2 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked