Crimes & Guns... Sweden

In relation to another couple of threads where well meaning... uhm... forum-goers, have been trying to put forth the notion that crime can be only kept down and you can only keep yourself safe if you give every citizen an gun or three...

Sweden...

Sweden practices gun control, in the sense that you have to have a permit for every gun you wish to own. If you want a gun, you get a license from the local police authority who checks with your criminal record and other noteworthy things to concider regaring your suitability when it comes to being a gun owner.

You also have to state for what purpose you are getting the gun and you must also show that you are qualified to use the gun in said application.

Things that qualifies as valid reasons for having a gun:

- Hunting.
- Sports, either marksmanship or starter pistols.
- Active withing the local defence forces, or the police

And that is about it. This accounts for pretty much every one of the two million guns that are privately owned or managed among Sweden's nine million citizens. 1 million of guns are hunting rifles. Half a million are hunting shotguns. The rest are misc.

Guns also have to be locked up disassembled, in a manner that pretty much excludes the possibility to pull tem out in a hurry and putting them together.

Things that will not grant you a license:

- Self-defence

No, saying "I must have a gun because I think som badguy might sneak up on me and so I will need to shoot him" will not get you a permit. Don't even bother... you won't get it.

Crime?

So this must mean that crime in Sweden is very high, right? With badguys not having to face armed citizens, it much be crime haven, right?

No...

Number of wrongful deaths, by murder, manslaughter or battery with fatal outcome has since the 1950's been between 1-3 dead per 100 000 citzens and year in Sweden, most of the time staying at 2.

The wrongful death rate by guns - dead per 100 000 citizens - is 40 times higher in the state of Louisiana compared to Sweden.

So how do we live without guns?

Long, healthy and safe, thank you...

/S

Link please?

This was very informational, thank you, but I cannot accept the bolded fact until I have at least some evidence.

I'd actually put this in religion and politics, since many people have very strong feelings about this issue. That being said, I'm not sure it's practical to enforce that level of gun control in the US. The cat's already out of the bag, so to speak - if you want a gun, you can easily get one. If there were any inkling that the US was about to stop the sale of handguns, suddenly handgun sales would increase tenfold, and there'd be more than enough guns on the (black)market to continue on as we are now. Guns can last a really long time, properly stored (my family has 3 100+ year old guns, two of which, a .410 and a .22, we still use on a regular basis), so it's not like anyone'd run out. Ammunition, similarly, would be stockpiled immediately if this were to happen (witness the sudden run on and subsequent shortage of .223 Rem. and all kinds of pistol ammunition around the time when Obama was elected due to some frankly pretty stupid lies being told by the NRA). While I agree society might be safer without them, there's just no practical way to get rid of guns in the US at this point.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and IMHO the much lower violent crime rates in Sweden have more to do with the narrowness of the gap between rich and poor and well-run education and other state programs than they do with availability of guns. And doesn't Sweden have higher crime rates than most other EU countries, anyway?

And your point being?

You know that most violent crimes in America that have to do with guns involve either an unregistered gun (one bought on the black market), or are crimes of passion, which would arguably have occurred with a gun, knife, or a blunt object, anything that's handy.

The difference between crime in Sweden, and crime in America is that America has a MUCH larger population, shittier schools, and more poor urban areas. That's why there's more crime in America, the number of guns have very little to do with anything.

Your country seems pretty awesome, but since i like to go trapshooting so much, having less gun control would just Sweden the deal!

Ross Perot:
Your country seems pretty awesome, but since i like to go trapshooting so much, having less gun control would just Sweden the deal!

image

AjimboB:
The difference between crime in Sweden, and crime in America is that America has a MUCH larger population, shittier schools, and more poor urban areas. That's why there's more crime in America, the number of guns have very little to do with anything.

Not sure how pointing out that USAians are too stupid to figure out how to properly distribute their wealth is an argument against gun control.

Emergent System:

AjimboB:
The difference between crime in Sweden, and crime in America is that America has a MUCH larger population, shittier schools, and more poor urban areas. That's why there's more crime in America, the number of guns have very little to do with anything.

Not sure how pointing out that USAians are too stupid to figure out how to properly distribute their wealth is an argument against gun control.

I never said anything about distribution of wealth. It's the fault of the government for improper allocation of taxes.

America has a defense budget that's 10x larger than the defense budget of every country in the European Union combined. If every half of that was used to fix infrastructure, these wouldn't be problems.

The point is that these (un-cited) crime rate statistics aren't because we have lax gun control, as the large majority of murders don't even involve guns, and the ones that do usually either involve firearms purchased on the black market, or are crimes of passion, which would have ended in murder regardless of weapon used.

Sayvara:
In relation to another couple of threads where well meaning... uhm... forum-goers, have been trying to put forth the notion that crime can be only kept down and you can only keep yourself safe if you give every citizen an gun or three...

Sweden...

Sweden practices gun control, in the sense that you have to have a permit for every gun you wish to own. If you want a gun, you get a license from the local police authority who checks with your criminal record and other noteworthy things to concider regaring your suitability when it comes to being a gun owner.

You also have to state for what purpose you are getting the gun and you must also show that you are qualified to use the gun in said application.

Things that qualifies as valid reasons for having a gun:

- Hunting.
- Sports, either marksmanship or starter pistols.
- Active withing the local defence forces, or the police

And that is about it. This accounts for pretty much every one of the two million guns that are privately owned or managed among Sweden's nine million citizens. 1 million of guns are hunting rifles. Half a million are hunting shotguns. The rest are misc.

Guns also have to be locked up disassembled, in a manner that pretty much excludes the possibility to pull tem out in a hurry and putting them together.

Things that will not grant you a license:

- Self-defence

No, saying "I must have a gun because I think som badguy might sneak up on me and so I will need to shoot him" will not get you a permit. Don't even bother... you won't get it.

Crime?

So this must mean that crime in Sweden is very high, right? With badguys not having to face armed citizens, it much be crime haven, right?

No...

Number of wrongful deaths, by murder, manslaughter or battery with fatal outcome has since the 1950's been between 1-3 dead per 100 000 citzens and year in Sweden, most of the time staying at 2.

The wrongful death rate by guns - dead per 100 000 citizens - is 40 times higher in the state of Louisiana compared to Sweden.

So how do we live without guns?

Long, healthy and safe, thank you...

/S

Socialism for the win!

How difficult is the language to learn? I would really like to go there...perhaps even stay. I've also heard that the vast majority of the people who live there are non-religious (like, 85%). Sweden sounds awesome.

But what if the vampires get me? (Let the Right one in reference by the way)

OT: Did not know this, very interesting info. I think where I live, Arizona, you can get a shotgun or rifle at the age of 18, but you need to be 21 for a pistol, since it can be hidden.

Sound pretty similar to Australia.

Shure, sweden was good, but now that the Swedendemocrats have joined the government,you might as well go to GB instead. I know I will. BTW, anyone that has a good idea what it's like to live i GB?

TheYellowCellPhone:
Link please?

This was very informational, thank you, but I cannot accept the bolded fact until I have at least some evidence.

Reported crims in Sweden from 1950 to 2009, courtersy of Brottsforbyggande Radet (BRA, The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, the authority responsible for crime statistics in Sweden).

The comprison to Louisisana is some 10 years old by now and I can't seem to find that so you'll have to take my word for it or find the comparison chart... it was between all the US states and all the EU states.

GRoXERs:
I'd actually put this in religion and politics, since many people have very strong feelings about this issue.

It's statistics I'm posting here. If statistics upset people... they are slightly more sensitive than called for I'd say. :)

GRoXERs:
That being said, I'm not sure it's practical to enforce that level of gun control in the US. The cat's already out of the bag, so to speak

Well you can't get it - and its three dozen kittens - back in the bag again by just stitting around waiting for it to happen.

GRoXERs:
Oh, yeah, and IMHO the much lower violent crime rates in Sweden have more to do with the narrowness of the gap between rich and poor

Someone else being filthy rich doesn't make you a criminal. We have people on rock bottom in Sweden too. You become a criminal because you're lacking something - money, food, a place to belong, thrills, etc... not because someone else has it really good.

GRoXERs:
and well-run education and other state programs than they do with availability of guns.

Opportunity makes the criminal. If you have the oportunity to use a gun, chances are much higher you'll use it than if you have to work your arse off to get one.

GRoXERs:
And doesn't Sweden have higher crime rates than most other EU countries, anyway?

I have no idea.

AjimboB:
And your point being?

To show statistics and facts.

AjimboB:
You know that most violent crimes in America that have to do with guns involve either an unregistered gun (one bought on the black market)

I'd dare speculate that more than 9 out of 10 guns started out as "legal" guns.

AjimboB:
or are crimes of passion, which would arguably have occurred with a gun, knife, or a blunt object, anything that's handy.

Someone coming at me with fists I can wrestle to the ground. A bat I can take from soemone's hands without needing a bat myself. A knife I can run away from.

But there is absolutely no way I can defend myself from a gun this way... the only way to do that is to get a gun myself.

AjimboB:
The difference between crime in Sweden, and crime in America is that America has a MUCH larger population, shittier schools, and more poor urban areas. That's why there's more crime in America, the number of guns have very little to do with anything.

That's why I posted the crime rates, that is to say the number of crimes per 100 000 citizens.

Ross Perot:
Your country seems pretty awesome, but since i like to go trapshooting so much, having less gun control would just Sweden the deal!

Trap shooting? No sweat... I have done that. Have done that a few tiems at a sports shooting club. Plus sports shooting is one of those things you can get a license for.

octafish:
Socialism for the win!

Well thank you for pointing out my country's governing system to me because I obviously had no clue of that myself.

Today, Sweden is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary democracy of government and a highly developed economy.

Snake Plissken:
How difficult is the language to learn? I would really like to go there...perhaps even stay. I've also heard that the vast majority of the people who live there are non-religious (like, 85%). Sweden sounds awesome.

We all speak english too. We start learning in first to third grade.

/S

Sayvara:

The wrongful death rate by guns - dead per 100 000 citizens - is 40 times higher in the state of Louisiana compared to Sweden.

I assume you also know that Louisiana's poverty rate is fair greater then that of Sweden. Not to mention the problems that racial tensions draw up. More guns does not equal more deaths, other factors play a role.

I'm all for the concept of guns for self-defense. Why? Because, to quote one anonymous L.A. gang member: "gun laws just make sure that people like me have access to guns, but the people I'm going up against don't." In the end, the bad guys will alway be able to get illegal firearms to do their dirty work. I'd rather have a piece on me when someone tries to rob my house, thanks.

I was raised with guns in the house, I was trained to use them responsibly and to respect their power. Lack of education is the biggest problem in the gun debate right now, people either demonize or cantonize them.

Svartfalk:
Shure, sweden was good, but now that the Swedendemocrats have joined the government,you might as well go to GB instead. I know I will. BTW, anyone that has a good idea what it's like to live i GB?

I really doubt The Swedendemocrats are going to have any power to change anything about immigrant politics at all. And what little they do change is something that either the alliance or the redgreens wants to change anyway.

Besides you have to accknowledge that everytime you open a newspaper in Sweden at least half of it is about crime committed by immigrants. Just saying.

Rayne Logan:

Svartfalk:
Shure, sweden was good, but now that the Swedendemocrats have joined the government,you might as well go to GB instead. I know I will. BTW, anyone that has a good idea what it's like to live i GB?

I really doubt The Swedendemocrats are going to have any power to change anything about immigrant politics at all. And what little they do change is something that either the alliance or the redgreens wants to change anyway.

Besides you have to accknowledge that everytime you open a newspaper in Sweden at least half of it is about crime committed by immigrants. Just saying.

I know that. It's just a matter of(.... Fuck! I can't spell!) principiels.

"Sweden has this wonderful social, economic, and political system, but it only works for Swedes." - PJ O'Rourke

SimuLord:
"Sweden has this wonderful social, economic, and political system, but it only works for Swedes." - PJ O'Rourke

Works well in Norway and Denmark too.

Istvan:

SimuLord:
"Sweden has this wonderful social, economic, and political system, but it only works for Swedes." - PJ O'Rourke

Works well in Norway and Denmark too.

Wouldn't work in America. Socialism requires an educated populace with a strong sense of civic duty and cultural unity. America has none of the above.

SimuLord:

Wouldn't work in America. Socialism requires an educated populace with a strong sense of civic duty and cultural unity. America has none of the above.

I agree there, but then again there is a big difference as America is made up of European emigrants with very little in the way of unifying history and cultural bonds when compared to the European nations.

There's also the issue of the American government having too much to administrate to do it effectively, the only way it could be implemented would be for the states to establish it by themselves without more than federal oversight and cooperation between their services on a federal level, though even then I doubt it would work well.

But yeah, it wouldn't function unless everyone but a specific population group (Doesn't matter whcih) was exterminated and the remainder was allowed to wait around for a couple of hundred years to form their own culture and history without outside interference.

As much as I would dislike to live in the states, if genocide was the way to solve the problem then I wouldn't think it worth solving. US is in a different position than the European nations and Canada, and the two are simply incapable of functioning in the same manner.

Besides, it'd be a lot less fun for both sides if we couldn't look through our seperate cultual lences and point out eachothers flaws.

Oh, not this thread again...

I said in another thread there are other factors to "murder by gun" than "well, he had a gun". Most criminals get guns illegally anyway, so restricting legal avenues does not affect them.

Snake Plissken:
How difficult is the language to learn? I would really like to go there...perhaps even stay. I've also heard that the vast majority of the people who live there are non-religious (like, 85%). Sweden sounds awesome.

As a Finnish person, who is forced to study Swedish, I can tell you that the language is amazingly hard, at least for me. On the other hand, I don't have any motivation for studying it, so that might have some effect on it.

 

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