WW2 had two sides. Why do we never talk about the other one...

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I was wondering today about a history essay question I got about the ethical standards when the decision to drop the nuke was made. I looked through my notes and my teachings and it tended to steer toward dropping the nukes as a good solution. This puzzled me and I actually argued the other way but that isnt what this thread is about. I wondered what they taught japanese students about Hiroshima and Nagaski. What in gods name do you say to those kids.

"Two cities were vaporised but we totally deserved it, you can't really be sad, we were the bad guys"
"Two cities were vaporised but we were actually in the right, they were the bad guys, now you can feel sorry for them"

I cant really see either of these being acceptable... I dont know what I'd say.

Hell I know sins of the father and such is a pretty poor way to look at things but in this case I have no idea how Germans and the other ex axis powers feel about the war or how they can talk about it without being in the wrong in some way, either not being able to feel pity or sadness for their fallen ancestors or take pride in anything they did (armed service or other wise) or seeming like they sympathised with the whole idea of the axis powers. It seems like catch 22 here, they can't really have an opinion that won't be viewed as horrific or will force them to see their family with a blackened past.

TLDR:

What are you taught about that era? How do you feel people should talk about the other side when teaching or in general conversation? Is it fair to dehumanize old enemies? How would you feel if you belonged to a nation once branded "enemy" and in the wrong regardless of peoples personal beliefs? Whats your opinion on the whole thing?

I just say that Kitakyushu is the luckiest city in the world.

History is written by the winners, if we learned from both sides instead of one(ex: ACW) The world could have been better. Instead of learning why they fought in the first place we just put they were bad.(ex: ACW)

We dont talk about it because they lost, thats how all wars work. History is written by the victors

The problem lies with the fact that they chose civilian cities, not high priority military targets.

I can understand the history is written by the victors, it does also help that the victors are usually state power countries like Post war USA, Russia, etc. history is written not necessarily by the victor but always in favour of the victor..

It does have a strange effect on a man when he discovers his views were not the whole views and that each story has more than 1 or 2 sides to the truth..

I'd like to actually get a good answer from an actual Japanese person, just for the insight. I wonder how they portray the atomic bombs dropping to their students, and how exactly the country feels about it all. Being American I haven't got any idea what it's liketo have been defeated, at least not in such a way.
o.o
Anyone know any Japanese kids? Get them in on this so we can figure this out. lol

Well I don't live in Japan or Germany. I can only imagine that they teach the history of the World Wars from their perspective: 'we were bastards, really.'

I always thought that we wouldn't get a video game where we fight for the 'bad guys.' But after that airport mission in MW2, fighting as the Nazis seems plausible.

I think the main reason why the nuke was dropped on Japan was because they wouldn't give up otherwise and it was the only way to get them to stop.

Americans were taught that Japan and Germany suck.

From what ive heard Japan basically whitewashes quite alot of the negative areas and treats it as another war.
Germany does quite the opposite demonising just about everything to do with the war, although im not sure how verterans are treated i think its generally similar to other countries.

As for the nukes at the time it wasnt seen as much different to regular fire bombings of other cities at least until the aftereffects became more known

What you have to understand it that this happened a significant time ago and as such is not really of any greater interest to modern-day students/school children. Except as an historic or academic topic.

I was taught about it (growing up in an "axis-nation"), as I was taught about the napoleonic era or the weimar republic, only more in depth. The idea to identify with the people of those days and think about it as a "we" always seemed somewhat silly to my.

So yeah, if you want to know what "we" think about the time back then... not a whole lot, to be honest.

Edit:

Spacewolf:

Germany does quite the opposite demonising just about everything to do with the war, although im not sure how verterans are treated i think its generally similar to other countries.

You need to understand that military service is seen as much less of a deal here, than it is in the USA. And thus, by extension, being a veteran is seen as much less of deal.

BiscuitTrouser:
snip

(I'm going to assume you live the States for a sec.)
They learn about it the same way we learn about Vietnam or westward expansion. We did it, mistakes were made, lets learn from them and try not to do it again.

In Germany we tend to discuss WW2 a little like it was another country(in schools at least). We learn about it the same way we learn for example about Alexander the Great or the Roman Empire. Ok there is a huge amount of cultural guilt involved and we learn about WW2 in some form nearly every year after sixth grade. At the end we nearly know about every war crime we commited in WW2 and we learn in depth about some specific examples (for example one history lesson in school was about one single mass execution in Poland to understand the way in which the people accted back then)
As I said we kinda discuss it without condemning all people in that generation but naturally without glorifying them either.

EDIT: We know of course that what we did was horribly wrong. Thats so obvious I forgot to mention it

Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, thousands, or to risk an invasion that could take years and kill millions more. Both are equally undesirable, but that's a choice that had to be made, and it was.

As I recall, I think we chose to drop the bombs, but I don't remember.

You know, my dad always told me this: The people usually aren't the bad guys.
It's the people in charge who put them in these situations.

I always try to look at things impartially, but it's hard.

Does that answer your question?

I can at least pitch in my personal source of knowledge. Basically agreeing with Spacewolf, Japan whitewashes quite a bit, so much so that it's fairly common for Japanese people to think that the US struck first. And they kind of gloss over the whole war atrocities thing.

From what I've heard from Japanese friends, they don't mention WW2 at all, really, in Japan, in schools. It's not taught. They don't bring it up. Japanese tourists have come to Australia and been totally shocked to learn that Japanese submarines were ever in that area. And Japanese war veterans don't discuss what happened with their families, or in public.

It's like a black ink spot on a white dress that nobody acknowledges, because it's more polite to say nothing.

It's a pretty big gray area and one of those topics where you realize life isn't as simple as good vs. evil. Yes, it's horrible that so many civilians were killed and injured, but at the same time it did pretty much end that conflict and arguably saved more lives in the long run.
Is that much consolation to people alive today who are disfigured or lost loved ones and families because of it? Not really, but it certainly got Japan to cut out their bullshit. Take a look at some of the stuff that was done by the Japanese army, specifically Unit 731, and their absolute brutality in combat.

On the other hand, perhaps it was just a show of power to cap off a long and drawn out war - one last flexing of a military muscle to show the world who's boss. I have no answer, but I'd be curious to see what somebody from Japan would think too.

smearyllama:
Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

Within the first few months of the bombings, a combined total of approximately 250,000 people died. As for the amount of people who died as a result of radiation sickness in the years following, I couldn't say, but it certainly never entered into the "millions"

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki occurred at a different time than ours. Back then, racism was a very prominent part of life. Both sides - axis and allied - used racial propaganda, although the Axis powers used it more frequently and to much worse effect.

Japan's main goal during the 30's, right up to WW2, was empire building - they wanted to conquer all of Asia. Their goals outside of Asia weren't clear, but what was clear was their desire to imitate the British Empire. Japan was undergoing a period of modernization at that point, adopting Western styles of Manufacturing and Business and Science. They also saw all those empires the Western Powers had, and decided that to be truly powerful they too needed to expand and conquer territories.

So they did. The launched wars of aggression against China and Korea, and then parts of the British Empire. The Japanese stated that it was to kick the Europeans out of Asia and establish a "co-prosperity" sphere. Why this "sphere" had to involve murdering millions of Chinese civilians, we don't know. Why it had to involve raping and plundering its way across Asia, performing biological weapons testing on other asian nationalities, we don't know either. But it did.

Japan's motives during WW2 were clear - resources and land. That was what they wanted. Now, the British can be rightfully accused of doing the same thing when it was building its empire. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Japan's conduct during its war with China is horrific beyond imagination. Seriously, go read some Chinese accounts (and even some Japanese soldiers accounts) of what happened did during that time. Japanese soldiers were encouraged to behead as many people as possible, as a contest. Women and young girls were forced into brothels. And what they did to prisoners - well, it was only a very slight shade less evil than what the Nazis did.

Yes, the Europeans did similar things in Africa. It doesn't excuse what the Japanese did.

Of course, that's in the past now. Japan is peaceful once more. Let bygones be bygones. It's hard, but they're our friends now. The nuclear bombings of those cities however, was necessary. Japan had instructed every single civilian to take up arms (even if those arms consisted of Bamboo poles because they were short on guns). Even kids young as 10 were being trained to fight the Americans. The US learned on Iwo Jima that the Japanese would fight to the death. Any invasion by land would have been a bloody mess of epic proportions.

Keep in mind that even after the SECOND atomic bomb was dropped, roughly half the Japanese Military leadership still didn't want to surrender. The head of their navy proposed using 20 million Civilians in a suicide attack against the Americans. Without the atomic bombing, they simply wouldn't have surrendered.

I suppose I'm a bit biased - my grandfather was taken as a POW by the Japanese after they invaded Malaya (Malaysia now). He wasn't even a soldier. They took him back to Japan, and he nearly died in those camps. They used to continuously stage mock executions, in which they would take him to the firing range, raise their guns, then pretend to fire, before putting him back in his cage (they kept him in a cage) and saying "maybe tomorrow". The Japanese were going to execute every POW if the Americans landed - that much is fact. The bombings saved my Grandfather's life. And he forgave the Japanese afterward. Did business deals with them, mostly involved with selling them timber.

My grandmother on my Mother's side was driven out of China because of the Japanese invasion. She had to leave everything behind. She had to dress up as a boy because who knows what would have happened if they had caught her and they thought she was a girl.

Now, with the Nazis, their evil was well established. Hitler was an uber-racist (not, however, an uber-man). He simply wanted to wipe out entire groups of people. Russians, all Slavs, Poles, Gypsies, Jews, Gays, Communists - the account of what the German Army did in Russia is there for all to see. Their job, their goal, was laid out in Hitler's Mein Kampf - total extermination of the Russian race, total extermination of anyone not deemed "worthy".

And believe me, they tried. Mass Graves. The SS simply rounded up any Russian deemed to be a Jew, from the littlest toddler to the oldest man. And they shot them. They just gunned them down. For no other reason than the religion of their birth, or their physical appearance. Millions of people.

The Nazis killed Six Million people in their camps alone. They killed even more out of those camps.

Look, go see a video of what the Concentration camps were like. Do it. Go read an account of the suffering the Russians went through during WW2, and maybe you'll understand why they hated the Germans so much. In fact, go read Mein Kampf. It's not a good book, but you'll quickly realize what Hitler had intended for the world had he won.

Hitler did not believe in democracy, freedom or even happiness. Jack-booted authoritarianism was what he preached, and he made no bones about it. Dissent was not tolerated, and anything short of total devotion to "the fuhrer" was seen as dissent. Hitler was full of hatred, and his ideology was one of militarism, conquest, obedience and raw power. He was a bad man. Don't believe me? READ HIS OWN WORKS. It comes across very clearly.

I did a big essay on the atomic bombs and actually concluded that they were in part necessary to end the world war when it did. Still, the act of bombing any civilians is pretty darn unethical in itself, but at least i understand why the Americans did it.

smearyllama:
Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

It is closer to an estimated 200,000, give or take 50,000.
What a horrible answer...that's like a stadium full of people unaccounted for.

Because everyone seems to forget that maybe the normal people on the other side didn't want it.

German Soldier gets shot in WWII? here's how a lot of people view it: he isn't a normal man who fought out of fear of the repirsal he would face if he refused, he wasn't a father and husband who wanted what was best for his family, he wasn't a man who knew nothing of Hitler's atrocities and he wasn't a man who hated Hitler but felt that invasion would ruin what he held dearest to him back home. He wasn't a patriot who wanted to defend his home regardless of it's leadership, and he wasn't a man hoping to make a difference on the frontlines. He wasn't a man who rejected the Nazi ideals but just wanted to fight with his friends and help make sure they all came back alive, and he wasn't a man who just didn't understand the implications of what he was doing.

No, in the eyes of society, he is a villian who deserved to die. That one little man, caught up on the wrong side of one of the very few "just" wars out of sheer circumstance. People will say "but anyone who agreed must be evil!" without thinking, "hey, maybe very few people actually agreed...". People will say "You should never go along with that sort of thing!" without ever thinking "hey, maybe they didn't know what Hitler was up to, and didn't realize he was such a bad guy!". People will say "you should resist tyranny and evil, and fight for what you believe in!" without ever having felt fear for their lives, their families, their homes before in their entire lives.

You know what? fuck Hitler. Fuck all those who really believed in his aims. But I agree with the OP: It's about time that the hardship and loss faced by the everyday, average citizen of an Axis nations was recognised, because they were victims too. Hell, if we will celebrate the victories of the men fighting for Stalin, then why not? I'm not saying we should go "booyah, the Axis fought so fucking well, what respect we should have for them!" but that we should simply take a step back and see the guy on the side of evil in this fight. Just see if he really hates jews like his leader, see if he would really sanction murder like his leader, see if he wants to fight this war... because it's very likely he didn't. And that's not even mentioning the civillians...

Korolev:
*snip*

No-one is disputing the morality of the motives and actions of the Axis leaders. It's the attitude towards the regular people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and found themselves stuck on the evil side of a war they were forced to fight in that's the issue.

SonicKoala:

smearyllama:
Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

Within the first few months of the bombings, a combined total of approximately 250,000 people died. As for the amount of people who died as a result of radiation sickness in the years following, I couldn't say, but it certainly never entered into the "millions"

Ok, I'm sorry, I'm an idiot, and I'll edit that right now.

Diligent:

smearyllama:
Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

It is closer to an estimated 200,000, give or take 50,000.
What a horrible answer...that's like a stadium full of people unaccounted for.

Ok, I fixed that.
Sorry for being an idiot.

badgersprite:
From what I've heard from Japanese friends, they don't mention WW2 at all, really, in Japan, in schools. It's not taught. They don't bring it up. Japanese tourists have come to Australia and been totally shocked to learn that Japanese submarines were ever in that area. And Japanese war veterans don't discuss what happened with their families, or in public.

It's like a black ink spot on a white dress that nobody acknowledges, because it's more polite to say nothing.

That is just sad.
And wrong. Children need to be educated about this stuff. Not to force them to feel guilt or shame about it, but make them realize that yes, they do a have a responsibility to not allow something like it to happen again in their lifetime.

As for the actual bombings, Iīm not going to touch that one. It just doesnīt feel right to me to discuss these types of events on an internet forum.
If you really want to learn about it, donīt go to wikipedia, go to a library.
Personally, Iīd recommend "Slaughterhouse Five" as a start.
Itīs even fun to read.

Diligent:

smearyllama:
Well, in 7th grade, we had an exercise where we had to decide whether to simply drop the bombs, killing millions (am I right in saying that? I don't know the numbers)

It is closer to an estimated 200,000, give or take 50,000.
What a horrible answer...that's like a stadium full of people unaccounted for.

Yes, most estimates are that 200,000 people died directly due to the blasts, either from radiation or burns. A sizeable number.

But even more died due to the "conventional" bombing involving incendiaries against Japanese towns, whose houses were mostly made of wood and bamboo (which is actually a very good building material in many cases). Virtually entire cities were burned to ashes by conventional bombs.

And yet it's not as many as would have died if the US had invaded by land. Again, the head of the Japanese navy at the time clearly stated that he wanted to use 20 million civilians in a suicide attack that he felt "sure" would repel the Americans. The army STILL wanted to fight after the second bombing. It was only when the Emperor put his foot down and called for surrender that they finally did (and even then, elements of the army tried to stage an unsuccessful coup). They could have surrendered after the first bomb went off. They didn't. They didn't want to surrender because they thought the US only had one bomb.

And I stress that the leadership of Japan had to change. If the US had agreed to a conditional surrender that would have preserved the military leadership, Japan would not have changed - it would still be a racially fanatic, militarism regime, similar to what North Korea is now.

The people who are responsible for the deaths of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not the Americans, but the Japanese militarists themselves. They had the option to surrender before the bombs were dropped, and after the first one was. They didn't. They were perfectly willing, and said so, to send all of Japan to hell to preserve their racial pride. Only the Emperor prevented that, but he is also responsible for the deaths of his own civilians, because he did not surrender faster.

Of course the deaths of all those civilians is tragic. Probably more would have died if they had invaded by land - on both sides. When conventional bombing was reducing their cities to ashes, did the Japanese military want to surrender? No - it forced thousands of young men to commit suicide by driving their planes into US ships.

The Japanese military was virtually insane and fanatic beyond all belief. Just as you couldn't reason with the Waffen-SS, you couldn't reason with the Japanese military leadership.

War is bad. It is NEVER a good thing if Civilians die. The Bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima should never be celebrated. It should not be a source of shame for the Americans, but it should not be a source of celebration either. It should be looked upon sadly, as a necessary task, one violent and horrible, but necessary all the same.

And it should serve as a reminder to the surviving Japanese militarists (and a great deal of them are still alive to this day) of where they led their country. The inferno of Hiroshima rests on Hirohito's, and Hideki Tojo's heads. Not Truman's, not Oppenheimer's, not the Allies.

I don't know what school you're going to, but in my High School history class, we actually had a pretty in depth discussion about the morality of dropping the bombs.

By the way, at the time, the Japanese government was literally handing out sharp sticks to civilians and telling them to attack any invading American soldiers. To clarify: They were telling them to DIE attacking American soldiers. And a bunch of POW civilians(who were being treated just fine) had already committed mass suicide on a small, American-occupied Japanese island just because the government said so, so......yeah.

BiscuitTrouser:
I wondered what they taught japanese students about Hiroshima and Nagaski. What in gods name do you say to those kids.

"Two cities were vaporised but we totally deserved it, you can't really be sad, we were the bad guys"
"Two cities were vaporised but we were actually in the right, they were the bad guys, now you can feel sorry for them"

I cant really see either of these being acceptable... I dont know what I'd say.

H

The Japanese had the... "honor," if you want to call it that, to fight man woman and child to the very last person, they where going to drive boats laden with explosives into landing craft, they where going to ambush troops and blow themselves up, the estimated causualty rate for the US would have been rediculous, do you understand where I am going here? THEY WHERE GOING TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH, AN ENTIRE RACE WAS GOING TO BE WIPED OUT. so yea, vaporize two cities to save more, it's an ugly thing to say, but, things worked out in the end.

Im from america and believe me, I agree that dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was one of the most horrific acts in human history. some people think it was the right thing to do because they are blinded by irrational nationalism (see fox news crowd). those who do disagree with dropping the bombs don't often like to talk about it the same way other countries tend not to bring up atrocities that they have committed. In my opinion the U.S. should step up and recognize the opposing viewpoint. I also think it is counterproductive to go blaming all americans for there insensitivity. Generalizing is always bad and my generation had nothing to do with WWII anyway, though my grandpa who fought in the battle of Manila would agree that the Bombs should never have been dropped without at least a warning.

InterAirplay:
Because everyone seems to forget that maybe the normal people on the other side didn't want it.

German Soldier gets shot in WWII? here's how a lot of people view it: he isn't a normal man who fought out of fear of the repirsal he would face if he refused, he wasn't a father and husband who wanted what was best for his family, he wasn't a man who knew nothing of Hitler's atrocities and he wasn't a man who hated Hitler but felt that invasion would ruin what he held dearest to him back home. He wasn't a patriot who wanted to defend his home regardless of it's leadership, and he wasn't a man hoping to make a difference on the frontlines. He wasn't a man who rejected the Nazi ideals but just wanted to fight with his friends and help make sure they all came back alive, and he wasn't a man who just didn't understand the implications of what he was doing.

No, in the eyes of society, he is a villian who deserved to die. That one little man, caught up on the wrong side of one of the very few "just" wars out of sheer circumstance. People will say "but anyone who agreed must be evil!" without thinking, "hey, maybe very few people actually agreed...". People will say "You should never go along with that sort of thing!" without ever thinking "hey, maybe they didn't know what Hitler was up to, and didn't realize he was such a bad guy!". People will say "you should resist tyranny and evil, and fight for what you believe in!" without ever having felt fear for their lives, their families, their homes before in their entire lives.

You know what? fuck Hitler. Fuck all those who really believed in his aims. But I agree with the OP: It's about time that the hardship and loss faced by the everyday, average citizen of an Axis nations was recognised, because they were victims too. Hell, if we will celebrate the victories of the men fighting for Stalin, then why not? I'm not saying we should go "booyah, the Axis fought so fucking well, what respect we should have for them!" but that we should simply take a step back and see the guy on the side of evil in this fight. Just see if he really hates jews like his leader, see if he would really sanction murder like his leader, see if he wants to fight this war... because it's very likely he didn't. And that's not even mentioning the civillians...

Korolev:
*snip*

No-one is disputing the morality of the motives and actions of the Axis leaders. It's the attitude towards the regular people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and found themselves stuck on the evil side of a war they were forced to fight in that's the issue.

Yes, that is true. Many Germans and Japanese soldiers were not Nazis or fanatics. And their deaths were tragic. I should have been more clear - not every German soldier was a Nazi. Nazis were members of the Nazi party, whereas German soldiers were members of the army, not the Nazi party.

Is it sad that many Germans and Japanese died during the war? Yes, absolutely. I mean, many of them were friends with the Americans/British/Chinese/Russians before the war. The Germans and the Japanese aren't any more evil than any other race or group of people. And the amount of civilians who died on both sides was awful. I have read accounts of what the Red Army did in Berlin after the War was over. It was sickening. It literally induced nausea within me. Not as bad as what the Germans did, but as I have said, two wrongs do not make a right. And the USSR also invaded Poland.

I've watched "grave of the fireflies" (which is a film EVERYONE should watch). I'm not a celebrator of war. Never have been. I've never agreed with those who "celebrate" the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. I've never agreed with those who treat the bombing as a source of shame either. War is hell, and horrific things happen in war. What the allies did was necessary, and I defend it from that viewpoint. But it shouldn't be "celebrated".

I hate Hideki Tojo. I hate Hitler. I don't hate Hanz or Misaki, or any of the millions of ordinary civilians who weren't Hitler or Tojo. I wish they didn't have to die.

But the blood of those civilians is on the hands of their leaders. Not the allies.

I remember seeing a clip of the US soldiers rounding up the civilians on Okinawa after the war. I remember seeing a young Japanese girl, maybe 5 years old, shivering and crying alone. Because the Japanese militarists convinced the population that they had to commit suicide to avoid the "barbarous American apes" as they put it. That young girl was the only survivor of her family - the others killed themselves in the shelters, or threw themselves off cliffs. Somehow she survived. The clip showed her crying and looking for her mother. That stuff stays in your head.

I'm not a jingoist. I fully recognize that the Japanese and the Germans were humans.

And that makes me hate the leadership of the Axis powers even more.

Korolev:

InterAirplay:
Because everyone seems to forget that maybe the normal people on the other side didn't want it.

German Soldier gets shot in WWII? here's how a lot of people view it: he isn't a normal man who fought out of fear of the repirsal he would face if he refused, he wasn't a father and husband who wanted what was best for his family, he wasn't a man who knew nothing of Hitler's atrocities and he wasn't a man who hated Hitler but felt that invasion would ruin what he held dearest to him back home. He wasn't a patriot who wanted to defend his home regardless of it's leadership, and he wasn't a man hoping to make a difference on the frontlines. He wasn't a man who rejected the Nazi ideals but just wanted to fight with his friends and help make sure they all came back alive, and he wasn't a man who just didn't understand the implications of what he was doing.

No, in the eyes of society, he is a villian who deserved to die. That one little man, caught up on the wrong side of one of the very few "just" wars out of sheer circumstance. People will say "but anyone who agreed must be evil!" without thinking, "hey, maybe very few people actually agreed...". People will say "You should never go along with that sort of thing!" without ever thinking "hey, maybe they didn't know what Hitler was up to, and didn't realize he was such a bad guy!". People will say "you should resist tyranny and evil, and fight for what you believe in!" without ever having felt fear for their lives, their families, their homes before in their entire lives.

You know what? fuck Hitler. Fuck all those who really believed in his aims. But I agree with the OP: It's about time that the hardship and loss faced by the everyday, average citizen of an Axis nations was recognised, because they were victims too. Hell, if we will celebrate the victories of the men fighting for Stalin, then why not? I'm not saying we should go "booyah, the Axis fought so fucking well, what respect we should have for them!" but that we should simply take a step back and see the guy on the side of evil in this fight. Just see if he really hates jews like his leader, see if he would really sanction murder like his leader, see if he wants to fight this war... because it's very likely he didn't. And that's not even mentioning the civillians...

Korolev:
*snip*

No-one is disputing the morality of the motives and actions of the Axis leaders. It's the attitude towards the regular people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and found themselves stuck on the evil side of a war they were forced to fight in that's the issue.

Yes, that is true. Many Germans and Japanese soldiers were not Nazis or fanatics. And their deaths were tragic. I should have been more clear - not every German soldier was a Nazi. Nazis were members of the Nazi party, whereas German soldiers were members of the army, not the Nazi party.

Is it sad that many Germans and Japanese died during the war? Yes, absolutely. I mean, many of them were friends with the Americans/British/Chinese/Russians before the war. The Germans and the Japanese aren't any more evil than any other race or group of people. And the amount of civilians who died on both sides was awful. I have read accounts of what the Red Army did in Berlin after the War was over. It was sickening. It literally induced nausea within me. Not as bad as what the Germans did, but as I have said, two wrongs do not make a right. And the USSR also invaded Poland.

I've watched "grave of the fireflies" (which is a film EVERYONE should watch). I'm not a celebrator of war. Never have been. I've never agreed with those who "celebrate" the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. I've never agreed with those who treat the bombing as a source of shame either. War is hell, and horrific things happen in war. What the allies did was necessary, and I defend it from that viewpoint. But it shouldn't be "celebrated".

I hate Hideki Tojo. I hate Hitler. I don't hate Hanz or Misaki, or any of the millions of ordinary civilians who weren't Hitler or Tojo. I wish they didn't have to die.

But the blood of those civilians is on the hands of their leaders. Not the allies.

I remember seeing a clip of the US soldiers rounding up the civilians on Okinawa after the war. I remember seeing a young Japanese girl, maybe 5 years old, shivering and crying alone. Because the Japanese militarists convinced the population that they had to commit suicide to avoid the "barbarous American apes" as they put it. That young girl was the only survivor of her family - the others killed themselves in the shelters, or threw themselves off cliffs. Somehow she survived. The clip showed her crying and looking for her mother. That stuff stays in your head.

I'm not a jingoist. I fully recognize that the Japanese and the Germans were humans.

And that makes me hate the leadership of the Axis powers even more.

You get a +1. And I mean that in the most serious way possible.

The movie "Letters From Iwo Jima" does well to show the Japanese side of the war. How most Imperial soldiers were just simple conscripts, who wanted nothing more than to go home to their families.

That would be an interesting topic for a game, being a German soldier who didn't really know why they fought and just got swept up in the combat.

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

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