Would you date a transgendered person?
I am a male, and I would date a MTF
22.8% (391)
22.8% (391)
I am a male, and I would NOT date a MTF
50.9% (872)
50.9% (872)
I am a female, and I would date a FTM
3.5% (60)
3.5% (60)
I am a female, and I would NOT date a FTM
1.5% (25)
1.5% (25)
It depends/I don't fit the above categories
16.2% (277)
16.2% (277)
I'm desperately lonely and would date anyone who would have me
4.6% (79)
4.6% (79)
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Poll: Would you date a transgendered person?

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artanis_neravar:

Da_Vane:

It's like being ashamed for voting Republican. If you are stupid enough to think voting Republican is a GOOD choice, then at least be proud enough to believe in it, rather than trying to sit on the damn fence. It's not like anyone on the fence actually HAS any damn good arguments besides why are we actually talking about this flame-bait on the Escapist, and where can I get some more marshmellows! How did this really make 13 pages? I didn't even try trolling this one... God forbid I actually got bored enough to give a crap.

I would like to point out that, while I was going to make a Fox News comment about someone else on this topic, this kind of hurts the overall effect of your arguments. (in that your tolerant of beliefs that are similar to yours but not ones that differ.) Now I'm not saying this is exaclty true, it's just the impression this tends to give.

AS for the rest of your post, I only skimmed it because it's getting harder to concentrate, what you said about Transgender is true, but it is also a qualifier. People refer to themselves as transgender males, just like I would refer to myself as a white male. The qualifier isn't needed, and doesn't have to be included but it is part of who they are, no matter how big or small a part, it is part of their identity and their past. Is it something to be ashamed of? no. does it make them any less the gender they choose? no. You are correct about the gender part as well. They are...genderly? male, but if they have XY chromosomes they are still genetically male, and if they contribute genetic material to a child they will still be the genetic father.

I get flippant, not intolerant - nothing like a healthy dose of self-depreciation and irreverence to keep people sane. People taking themselves too seriously leads to trouble - I like to remind them of that.

Your comments about transgender being a qualifier is a apt, but is a massive matter of contention within the transgender community itself. This is the flaw in overgeneralising and lumping everyone together just because people might seem similar - they are not, and if those divides are big enough, they actually become pretty resentful. That's about as useful as lumping everyone in the LGBT community together and then forgetting about them. Sexuality and Trans issues are not the same, regardless of what the public think, and soon enough the groups start to fight and want to split into their own communities. It's a bit like saying everyone who likes Sports should all be lumped into one community and have done with it. There's always going to be fractions and divides as you look closer at the differences, because that is how identities are formed: by what unites people and what differentiates them.

In the case of the trans community, it gets quite nasty, because you have the transgender who are actively fighting for trans to become a recognisable qualifier, compared to transsexuals, who have the ultimate goal to transition from one gender to the other. They do not classify themselves as trans - they are male or female. The actions of one group are undermining the aims of the other. Outsiders are clueless, and simply don't know - which comes to that simple answer: if you are stuck; ask. That is what respect is all about. Transsexuals will tell you whether they are male or female, and they will also tell you whether they consider themselves trans or not, and how they feel about it. Go with what they want, not what you think, because quite frankly, you don't have the right to tell them what they are, any more than they have the right to tell you what you are. Although if you think you, most people will be more than willing to hazard a guess - and they would probably be correct.

You can screw all the arguments about thought crimes, because it still basically comes down to the fact that people are putting their own prejudgements of others before others, and this is what is called prejudice. That is where all these terms from.

I have used all three big bad words in this thread - ignorance, intolerance, and prejudice. These have been used very literally. This thread contains many examples which is why these words exists. Yes, these words have been bandied about by media and politicians that rarely have a clue what they mean or where they come from, that use them because they once had a major impact on people. But right now, these are the actions which spawned them. It wasn't strictly hate or violence or anything that most reasonable people abhor.

It is normal, reasonable people who were ill informed and uneducated who go around believing that they are being normal and civilised and decent, with the best of intentions, when those intentions are flawed and detrimental. The people, who without even realising just how they are being ignorant, intolerant, and prejudiced, were making others around the world suffer by their inaction and the way they think.

Nobody is saying that everyone has to go out and start dating and having sex with transsexuals right now to prove how tolerant they are. But if you really want to support transsexuals and transgender people, then prove it by accepting them for who they are. It's a small change that means little to you, but will mean the world to them.

Melanie McGreevey:

Kinguendo:
I dont know dude, its gender reassignment surgery... and they are legally recognized as a woman so it would be a relationship between a man and a woman.

Herein lies the problem. Legally a post op trans person is their target gender. So telling someone you are trans after bedding them isn't really fraud as was stated before. You are not lieing to gain some sort of benefit (which i believe was the quote), because LEGALLY the trans person IS a woman. So not telling someone you are trans isn't fraud, it's not unveiling your past. For all legal stand points a post op trans woman IS female, and would be portrayed that way in court. Since it's the courts that OK a lot of what trans people go through.

Well, really it depends on the country. For instance, in Britain you do not have to undergo Sex Reassignment Surgery in order to be legally recognised as your actual gender. The requirements are that you have to live as your preferred gender for 2 years, and get a doctor to confirm you have Gender Dysphoria.

Well there's a lot of ways to be transgendered, but I assume you're talking about a full surgical transition, in which case, I would date an MTF.

>.>

<.<

Yup.

Oh goody, I get to do my little dissection again. For the sake of context for the passing reader, this is what ploppytheman was responding to:

Asita:

Spy_Guy:

I actually looked it up.

There are legal precedents where people have been charged with sexual harassment for obtaining consent via false means. For instance, impersonating someone's lover and obtaining consent for sexual activities would get you charged.

Despite the fact that it'd possibly be interpreted as second thoughts after the fact, no?

So, obtaining consent on false grounds could get you charged with harassment.
Personally, I'd rather avoid the problem outright by imposing laws that reconstructed genitals must be marked with a tattoo, or similar.
In my opinion, if you end up in a position where you are showing off your genitals to someone else, chances are that the person in question deserves to know whether or not they were man-made, so to speak.

If the partner in question didn't mind carrying out romantic acts with a reconstructed person, then all is well and nobody has to do anything they regret.

I personally believe that relationships should be based upon honesty and if someone would hide such a thing about themselves, then they're not honest or good people.

If you take something a bit different, like HIV. Would you feel alright if someone neglected to inform you of that condition before having sex with you?
Chances are you wouldn't.

...and if you would, then you're clearly a better person than I am.

Those are not comparable situations. In the former involves one person pretending to be another person entirely. The transgendered scenario involves you not knowing certain aspects of their life. It's not "I thought she was my wife" so much as it is "You never told me you had a tattoo". In the latter, you're talking about a piece of medical knowledge that directly affects any and all sexual partners on a permanent basis. As much as you may find the idea of sleeping with an MtF transgendered person distasteful, it does not compare to someone neglecting to tell you that they had HIV, and it's insulting to both transgendered people and HIV victims to treat it as such.

Now that we all know what the quote I'm taking apart was inspired by, let's get down to the retorts, shall we?

ploppytheman:

Of course its comparable. If someone would not do something and be utterly disgusted if they knew and you hide it then your just a bad person.

No they are not. As far as situations go the resemblance is superficial at best and even then it only holds up by removing context from the situation entirely, resulting in an intellectually dishonest comparison.
Scenario 1: Couple have sex, the man later finds out that his partner had undergone a sex-change operation. The unknown in this case was the physical history of the sexual partner, the objection stems from said history being a turn-off. Comparable situations include: Your partner had liposuction, your partner had breast implants, your partner has hair extentions, your partner is/isn't a vegetarian...

Scenario 2: Couple have sex, the man later finds out that his partner was pretending to be his real significant other. Comparable situations require misidentification and infidelity. For comparison see: Sex with the other of a pair of identical twins.

Scenario 3: Couple have sex, one partner discovers that the other had HIV/AIDS and neglected to mention it. Scenario places immediate significant risk if not harm to the uninfected partner. Honestly, I'm not even sure if there is a comparable situation to this one due to the severity of the consequences that are intrinsically tied to the act.

ploppytheman:
If someone put something gross in you food and only told you about it after you would probably vomit and maybe sue depending on what it was.

The only grounds you'd have for suing is if the meal gave you food poisoning or otherwise didn't meet health code requirements. In either case, the issue isn't 'they put something you didn't like in your food' it is that 'they put something dangerous in your food'.

ploppytheman:
I bet you could sue for mental anguish if a tranny lied to you because I'm sure it could cause all sorts of mental health issues.

Highly doubtful. If that were so I'd expect that cases on the grounds of regretting a prior night's actions would hold a lot more legal weight on their own, and I sincerely doubt that mental trauma is that easy to acquire.

ploppytheman:
There should be laws that you have to disclose your gender (the real one not ur liberal PC I wish I was gender) or you can get sued or jailed for rape. It would never happen to me but if you got drunk or were high you could easily ruin your life, like waking up to a fat chick x infinity.

I question the utility or necessity of such a law as - your personal taste nonwithstanding - there is no harm done with sex between two consenting adults. Whether or not you regret the act after the fact does not change the fact that consent was given to have sex with your partner.

Incidentally: if you got drunk or high and had sex under the influence then you'd actually have a case, but not due to the nature of the person you had sex with. Your case would stand solely on the fact that people under the influence are legally unable to give consent.

ploppytheman:
Not to mention starting a relationship on a lie trying to deceive people just shows how bad of a person you are and how undesirable you are.

You know, you were actually doing well with this particular point until you started harping on how 'horrible a person' and 'undesireable' this hypothetical person is. By doing so, however, you sacrifice credibility through your incorperation of personal attacks, which paints you as more eager to belittle people of a given persuasion than actually argue the point. Pity really, as the idea that relationships should be based on honesty and trust is actually a worthy one.

ploppytheman:
If some dude turns hid dick inside out he is still a dude. You can't change that. If you have sex with a tranny and you know it then your gay, thats it. Its really simple. And who cares if some trannies can look like a girl, it doesnt matter. Lots of guys or girls can LOOK like the other gender, but what it boils down to is lipstick on a pig.

Honestly, this bit does more to damage your argument than support it, as it would seem to rather neatly paints a picture of your motivations as inspired by homophobia rather than legal and/or ethical concerns, as evidenced by the fact that you use 'gay' as if it is inherently a point against the person. It's also a 'point' of questionable validity, as the physical attraction involved would be to someone who at a glance would appear to be the opposite gender, rather strongly implying heterosexual tendencies in the viewer.

ploppytheman:
The worst part is that tax dollars cover these operations which is complete bullshit. They just need to figure out what is causing people to be attracted to the wrong gender and fix it already so we can stop having all these stupid discussions and actually do something worthwhile with our time and money.

...'Wrong' gender? On what grounds do you make that claim? To the best of my knowledge, the closest thing anyone ever had to an argument for the inherent 'wrongness' of homosexuality is that it was 'unnatural', a claim that has long since been debunked.

I honestly have no problem with them and what they do to make themselves feel better (I mean hey, if this really is what you want, then I say go for it :D ). The only reason I wouldn't is because I want kids, but if it wasn't for that, then I don't see why not...

EDIT: Saw this thread last night, saw "Transgendered" in the title, (didn't post because I was too tired to put together a coherent post but) could tell that a shitstorm was incoming.
And here we are again. I wish I could say I'm happy, or even surprised, to be proven right. >_>

Da_Vane:

There is a condition based on the inability of the body to register certain sex hormones. It exists in both a form which fails to register androgens (male sex hormones) and gynogens (female sex hormones) the result is that regardless of the sex chromosomes the person actually has, this insensitivity will cause the individual to grow either female or male, respectively. It is not unheard of for patients suffering from this condition to become transsexual, albeit with some difficulty, since the hormonal insensitivity is an obvious issue that needs working around.

Thus, you have a male to female transsexual who is genetically identical to a genetic female. At least, genetically identical as far as the sex chromosomes are concerned. It could be argued they are not exactly genetically identical, but unless you are expecting to be dealing with genetically identical twins, chances are any argument based on this level of genetically identical subjects is going to be virtually impossible.

That said, given the nature of shared environments in the womb and hormonal imbalances, identical twins do actually tend to result in a slightly increased number of homosexual males and male to female transsexuals. There's not enough samples to do a real study on this though.

I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as gynogens, you might mean estrogens. And I'm pretty sure these conditions are an exception rather than the rule even when it comes to transexuals. And while I would agree that such individuals are of their target gender regardless of any surgery, the rest of transexuals aren't regardless of any surgery.

The way I see it femininity and masculinity are social constructs, being a male or female is a genetic trait. The way I see it gender is sex - a genetic trait, and I assume that's how most people see it as well.

Even if we treat gender as a term distinct from sex, as a social construct, what in the name of ninja turtles and Optimus Prime makes you think people are interested in their potential mate's gender and not their sex? When people ask if their mate is female they are refering to their sex not their gender, substituting one for another is at the very least dishonest.

People usually base their decisions of whether or not to have a relationship or intercourse on such factors as sex, not gender. People don't judge transexuals on their previous gender but on their current sex. People usually date with the goal of having intercourse. People usually marry with the goal of starting a family and having kids. Dating a transexual would be a dead end for such people.

Being a transexual is a vital piece of information that might greatly influence most people's decision in choosing a mate. Withholding it is dishonest and just creates ground for bigger problems down the road.

I wouldn't date someone who I didn't plan to have intercourse with, and as a straight male I wouldn't choose to have intercourse with someone whose sex was not female. While having intercourse with someone who wasn't would not physically hurt me it would cause me some serious distress. There are far worse and petty things based on which I would not have intercourse with a person, and I'm entitled to make this decision on whatever factor I choose - even if the factor is day of the week and whether the person has the letter 'G' in their name. And if you dig deep inside you'll find you have thousands of such factors. But only a handfull of those that are common - you can't ask your potential mate a thousand questions before every intercourse, you are going to assume some things based on how common they are - there is about 1 transexual in 30,000 people, the odds of an average person of ever even meeting a transexual are miniscule, as such asking whether someone is a transexual is statistically pointless. The limited set of questions which you ask better contain cases that are more common.

As the poll clearly demonstrated the majority of the people have an issue with dating a transexual, it would be much simpler if the transexual declared their sex and saved everybody wasted time and emotional turmoil. Noone asks every bit of their personal details, just the basic facts about them. If I go to a restaurant and order fish and the waiter brings me pork, It is only logical that I'll be somewhat mad and dissapointed, despite the waiter proclaiming "Oh, this is Fish, I knew him since he was a little piglet". Substituting a specie for a personal name is dishonest, the same way substituting sex for gender is dishonest.

There's plenty of things I support but don't want to have intercourse or a relationship with, that doesn't make me intolerant or a bigot. And there's even a greater amount of things which I don't like but tolerate, that doesn't make me a bigot either (well maybe it does, but that's just semantics, the point is I'm in my right to like or not like whatever I choose, but I should at least treat them with basic respect).

While you can change your gender in the speed of a thought, with current day technology you will not be able to change you sex.

You'll find that your definition of gender is empty and pointless to most people who aren't transexual. To them its just another word for sex (and sex is just another word for intercourse). They aren't trying to say what you think they're trying to say, they make no claim on the impossibility to change your social status, they are simply saying there are certain biological factors that cannot be changed no matter how much we might want them to.

I am very sympathetic of the situation transexuals find themselves in - I would not like to wake up tomorrow in the body of a female, my sex is a big enough part of my identity and with a physical change it would tear down the foundations of the house that is my identity. Perhaps it wouldn't take down the whole house, but at least a wall making my house shaky and unsafe to live in. I'd be pretty messed up, but it wouldn't change the fact that no surgery today would be able to restore me to my default state. And it can't restore transexuals to the desired state either for the same reason, it might make the differences smaller but it wouldn't eliminate all of them.

I'm sorry if any of this offends you or makes you uncomfortable, I was simply trying to politely show the other side of the argument, and the inescapable facts. To every story there are at least two sides, I've been reading 13 pages of this thread and many more threads like this and people seem completely blind to the other side of the story. There are very few people who are actually against transexuals, the crushing majority simply wants the freedom to choose who to date. If you deny them that freedom than you deny it from yourself and the argument becomes obsolete.

I have nothing against people trans-gendering, I think it's a little bit disgusting, but that's my opinion and I don't wish to force it against others. But I would find a little too weird thinking 'You used to be a guy...ew'

Summary, No but I don't have anything against TS people.

Regnes:

Da_Vane:

Regnes:
No, I don't care what gender a person believes they are, you are as you appear to be, not as you think you are.

A guy feels like he's a woman, sorry bro, you're not a woman, you're just gay. Same thing for women, they're lesbians, not men.

This is where statements like "sorry bro, you are just gay" are completely ignorant, and verging on bigotry. Few people have the experience to make that sort of judgement and override someone's identity like that. It's something people feel they have the right to do all the time, however, particularly online, because they have a lack of respect. This is asking or querying whether or not they might actually just be gay, but outright asserting and overruling their own identities with an individual's ill formed opinions.

I'm aware that I didn't word my statement as well as I could have, but this thread isn't about transgender rights or how they view themselves. This is basically a thread asking if you personally acknowledge the transgender concept as valid, and I do not. It doesn't matter if you feel like a woman, it doesn't matter if you feel like a man, it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight, you are as you were physically born. They're free to think what they want, that's the sanctity of their own mind, they're free to say who they feel they really are, that's their freedom of speech, but there is no freedom for others to decide what I personally think of matters.

It is my freedom to choose how I perceive the world, and I choose not to acknowledge their condition. I'm not attacking their rights, even if I said it right to their faces that I think they are wrong, they still have their rights and their world does not revolve around my opinions on matters.

All that aside, I was in the wrong to generalize that all transgender people are gay/lesbian. But if a woman who believes she's a man wants to go on a date with me, I'm simply going to be turned off, mainly because I don't date people with overwhelmingly masculine behaviors, even if her interest does lie in physical males such as myself.

Furthermore, while I do not acknowledge transgenders to whatever degree, I'm not saying people don't have overwhelming traits typically paired with the opposite sex. Just I believe it to be incorrect to come to the conclusion what gender you are based on these traits.

I'm not alone either, I'd be willing to bet every single person in this thread doesn't acknowledge transgender people. It's rooted deep within our minds, let's say we all have this female friend who believes she's a man, we may respect that out of our friendship with her, we will never tell her she's wrong. But we will also never view her as a man, she will always be a woman who is convinced she's a man. Try as we may, she will always be a woman to us.

This is because we are hardwired to recognize gender based on physical form, it's not even anything to do with our upbringing, it's just nature, instinct. It cannot be overridden.

DENIED! I am in this thread. I DO acknowledge transgenders to whatever degree. You argument has therefore been shown to be completely false.

Famous quote time: "It only takes one exception to disprove the rule. I am that exception."

We are not actually hardwired to anything - sexuality is based on hormones and brain chemistry, combined with pheromones and psychology. In short, if you like women, and it looks, feels, and smells like a woman, you will like it. More importantly, these can all be faked, and are not hardwired or defined exclusively by physical traits. This is why there is a fragrance industry, for a start.

The sense of smell goes straight into the emotional cortex of the brain, so you can trigger emotions through smell. This means that you can trigger things like lust through spell - put some female pheromones on your jock buddies for a laugh, but try not to get too close unless you really want a bromance, because too much can have you all questioning your sexuality for a while.

Humans don't have a gender identity until between the age of 2 to 3 - although by this time, their parents will have already started conditioning them based on their gender role according to their sex. It is not until the age of 4 to 5 that humans even begin to understand the relevance of gender roles, and are able to differentiate others based on gender roles. It is at this time when they will start to favour one parent over the other based on gender, and start favouring certain types of gendered playmates. Between these two periods, and often for a period of up to a year later, children often believe that gender roles are fluid. That is, that they can change gender roles, or that gender roles are not fixed. This may be because they do not associate a certain role to a certain gender - i.e. that being a mother requires being female - or because they have not yet learnt that gender roles tend to be fixed in society because of convention and the general idea that gender and sex are normally the same.

So, far from being "hardwired based on instinct" this is all actually learnt as part of childhood. Sex is instinctive - and is basically, if we like it, we're going to screw it. The genitals work based on hormones. The penis goes in something. The vagina is for putting things in. That's instinct. But how we feel about it, whether we enjoy it, whether it is actually right, that's all learnt.

The main part of sex happens in our head - that's where our hormones, our brain chemistry, our perceptions, and our psychology works. That's where it all comes together. When we orgasm, it happens in our head. The pleasure centres, and everything else, all function in our head. Everything that makes us human is in our head. That's why we have sexual fantasies. That's why we have porn. That's why there's a rule 34 of the internet.

Life is a mental illness.

Transsexuals know when something is wrong. It is an overgeneralisation to classify all transsexuals the same way, because they are pretty diverse themselves, but in general, when they have sex, they have sex as their chosen gender. This is normally part of the problem. It means there is a mismatch between certain sensations and actions, between certain behaviours. Brain scans of activity of MtF transsexuals have shown that they react like women during sex, rather than men, regardless of their genitalia.

It is unknown whether this is due to the fact that their gender identity is strong enough to actually change their behaviour during sex on a subconsious level, or whether they actually have an altered neurological system. It is known that hormones change the growth of the brain, and autopsies on MtF transsexuals have revealed that they have similar, if not identical, brains to women after hormone therapy. What is does mean is that besides the reproductive system, they do have a physiology that is similar to their chosen gender after hormone therapy for at least two years, and thus are biologically to be considered their chosen gender.

More importantly, anyone who actually PASSED their biology studies will know that the sex chromosomes code hormones for growth, and that the hormone therapy transsexuals undergo consist of those to replace those do not naturally produce, and those to counter the ones that they do, so that they are in the hormonal environment of their chosen gender. Thus, the body will be growing to their chosen gender as if they had the relevant chromosomes in the first place.

So, if you want to get biological on transsexuals and their right to be accepted, then get the facts right, because for all intents and purposes transsexuals will be physiologically identical to their chosen gender. The only ones they would vary on are sexual intercourse and reproduction, and if you are getting that intimate with a transsexual, then you've probably already made your mind up about whether or not you would be with them. Trust is a big thing for most transsexuals, who normally have issues with relationships anyway, for understandable reasons, and if you get that far, they'll let you know long before fun time comes along. You should probably stop watching all that shemale porn if you think otherwise - they are porn stars, and real life just isn't like that.

I have absolutely no idea =|
If I found them attractive physically and psychologically, then it would be reasonable to assume that I would date them, but I don't know how well I would be able to get past their whole "I used to be a dude" thing.
I hate adding this "I have nothing against transexuals or people who get their sex changed" bit because it seems contradictory to my above sentence (at least it does to me), but I really don't have anything against them. It just weirds me out and takes some time to get used to.

orangeban:

Melanie McGreevey:

Kinguendo:
I dont know dude, its gender reassignment surgery... and they are legally recognized as a woman so it would be a relationship between a man and a woman.

Herein lies the problem. Legally a post op trans person is their target gender. So telling someone you are trans after bedding them isn't really fraud as was stated before. You are not lieing to gain some sort of benefit (which i believe was the quote), because LEGALLY the trans person IS a woman. So not telling someone you are trans isn't fraud, it's not unveiling your past. For all legal stand points a post op trans woman IS female, and would be portrayed that way in court. Since it's the courts that OK a lot of what trans people go through.

Well, really it depends on the country. For instance, in Britain you do not have to undergo Sex Reassignment Surgery in order to be legally recognised as your actual gender. The requirements are that you have to live as your preferred gender for 2 years, and get a doctor to confirm you have Gender Dysphoria.

Sometimes it is GOOD to be in the UK... :D

Da_Vane:

orangeban:

Melanie McGreevey:

Herein lies the problem. Legally a post op trans person is their target gender. So telling someone you are trans after bedding them isn't really fraud as was stated before. You are not lieing to gain some sort of benefit (which i believe was the quote), because LEGALLY the trans person IS a woman. So not telling someone you are trans isn't fraud, it's not unveiling your past. For all legal stand points a post op trans woman IS female, and would be portrayed that way in court. Since it's the courts that OK a lot of what trans people go through.

Well, really it depends on the country. For instance, in Britain you do not have to undergo Sex Reassignment Surgery in order to be legally recognised as your actual gender. The requirements are that you have to live as your preferred gender for 2 years, and get a doctor to confirm you have Gender Dysphoria.

Sometimes it is GOOD to be in the UK... :D

Right now we get to watch the internet argue with modern science about if it exists or not. This aught to be a laugh, or a trainwreck.

Sure, I don't see any particular problem with dating a transgendered person. If I'm attracted to and care for the person, that's the main thing that matters. If they've taken steps to be more happy with who they are as a person, then that's fine. Doesn't bother me in the least.

Torrasque:
I have absolutely no idea =|
If I found them attractive physically and psychologically, then it would be reasonable to assume that I would date them, but I don't know how well I would be able to get past their whole "I used to be a dude" thing.
I hate adding this "I have nothing against transexuals or people who get their sex changed" bit because it seems contradictory to my above sentence (at least it does to me), but I really don't have anything against them. It just weirds me out and takes some time to get used to.

See - honesty. How hard is that to say, people? Really.

Nobody is going to think less of you for admitting that it might take you some time to get used to something new, or that you might not know how to handle an experience you haven't dealt with before.

But they will point out the inherent contradictory nature of your need to add "I have nothing against..." to cover yourself and make yourself appear tolerant.

Kudos to Torrasque for actually admitting being human enough to not actually knowing how to handle a new situation and realising it could take some time to get used to if it ever happened.

Versuvius:

Da_Vane:

orangeban:

Well, really it depends on the country. For instance, in Britain you do not have to undergo Sex Reassignment Surgery in order to be legally recognised as your actual gender. The requirements are that you have to live as your preferred gender for 2 years, and get a doctor to confirm you have Gender Dysphoria.

Sometimes it is GOOD to be in the UK... :D

Right now we get to watch the internet argue with modern science about if it exists or not. This aught to be a laugh, or a trainwreck.

Who do you think is going to win? ;)

I'd say no. It just seems very... uncanny valley to me... although that's not the right term. Regardless, its just a bit off and unsettling to me as I'd feel like I'm just dating a normal man who's undergone surgeries that I see as wholly unnecessary destruction of what is just fine...

Da_Vane:

Torrasque:
I have absolutely no idea =|
If I found them attractive physically and psychologically, then it would be reasonable to assume that I would date them, but I don't know how well I would be able to get past their whole "I used to be a dude" thing.
I hate adding this "I have nothing against transexuals or people who get their sex changed" bit because it seems contradictory to my above sentence (at least it does to me), but I really don't have anything against them. It just weirds me out and takes some time to get used to.

See - honesty. How hard is that to say, people? Really.

Nobody is going to think less of you for admitting that it might take you some time to get used to something new, or that you might not know how to handle an experience you haven't dealt with before.

But they will point out the inherent contradictory nature of your need to add "I have nothing against..." to cover yourself and make yourself appear tolerant.

Kudos to Torrasque for actually admitting being human enough to not actually knowing how to handle a new situation and realising it could take some time to get used to if it ever happened.

I don't think it is a normal human reaction to look at something strange and unfamiliar and say "I don't hate or love this, but I am willing to try it and see". I am very open minded when it comes to all things and only make an opinion of it when I actually know something about it. It is why I am an atheist, love science and ponies, and listen to many different kinds of music.

So... Thanks for the kudos, I shall spend them on cookies, but don't expect my response to be the norm.

So many walls of angry text from all sides. Makes my brain hurt.

I date people I feel I could have a relationship, or even fall in love with. Since this is a video game website, I found a character that could best sum up my opinion on the issue

I fall in love with people, not bodies. Simple as that.

Jegsimmons:
is anyone really getting tired of threads about gays, bisexuals, lesbians, and trannys?

Im mean, god bless everyone of different sexual orientation, but the forums are flooded with them and quite frankly, its fucking annoying.

Things go in cycles here at the escapist. It's sexuality day. But I don't see why that would be an issue. I mean, it can be annoying but it's not like it's hard to talk abo...

but in answer to the question, i would not because you are either a girl, or a boy....you cant choose. Stop lying to yourself and the people you hit on.

(note, the above does not refer to hermaphrodites.)

Oh. So you would not date a person because they identify as the opposite sex? Also, medical science would insist that you can, in fact, choose.

More interesting then the question, is just how many males compared to females there are on the Escapist.

Male here. I would NOT date a MTF (or FTM for that matter). Romance is out of the question if my significant other has a Y chromosome. Nothing personal.

jboking:

Jegsimmons:
is anyone really getting tired of threads about gays, bisexuals, lesbians, and trannys?

Im mean, god bless everyone of different sexual orientation, but the forums are flooded with them and quite frankly, its fucking annoying.

Things go in cycles here at the escapist. It's sexuality day. But I don't see why that would be an issue. I mean, it can be annoying but it's not like it's hard to talk abo...

but in answer to the question, i would not because you are either a girl, or a boy....you cant choose. Stop lying to yourself and the people you hit on.

(note, the above does not refer to hermaphrodites.)

Oh. So you would not date a person because they identify as the opposite sex? Also, medical science would insist that you can, in fact, choose.

no, i date women, only women, not guys PRETENDING to be women.
And what medical science where? Don't feed me that PC false science crap, until they can change your chromosome and DNA to 100% perfection, you are still the gender as you where born as.

I would be friends with them but I don't think I'll be attracted to them so I wouldn't date them. It's like whether or not I'll date some fat greasy guy.

Nope I wouldn't do it and that's that. To me that's too weird

Scorekeeper:
Male here. I would NOT date a MTF (or FTM for that matter). Romance is out of the question if my significant other has a Y chromosome. Nothing personal.

You might want to check quite a few women then - the XXY genetic mutation actually results in females...

Jegsimmons:

no, i date women, only women, not guys PRETENDING to be women.
And what medical science where? Don't feed me that PC false science crap, until they can change your chromosome and DNA to 100% perfection, you are still the gender as you where born as.

There is hormone therapy and of course Sex reassignment surgery. I'm sorry that medical science disagrees with your thoughts on the issue of "can we change someone's sex." Also, if your Y chromosomes no longer allow you to produce heavy amounts of testosterone and you are now able to produce more estrogen than testosterone...what is the purpose of your Y chromosome? Better yet, why should their chromosomes matter exactly? Let's say that you see someone walking down the street. The person has a delicate face, obviously real breasts, a curved waist, all the necessary features of a woman that you can tell a first glance. You two get to talking and the night seems like it is going to lead somewhere. You get to bed and behold, there is a vagina beneath the person's loins.

For the purposes of society, is that person male or female?

There is a larger issue here, though. You seem like a very angry person. Angry for no real reason. What's up with that?

Torrasque:

Da_Vane:

Torrasque:
I have absolutely no idea =|
If I found them attractive physically and psychologically, then it would be reasonable to assume that I would date them, but I don't know how well I would be able to get past their whole "I used to be a dude" thing.
I hate adding this "I have nothing against transexuals or people who get their sex changed" bit because it seems contradictory to my above sentence (at least it does to me), but I really don't have anything against them. It just weirds me out and takes some time to get used to.

See - honesty. How hard is that to say, people? Really.

Nobody is going to think less of you for admitting that it might take you some time to get used to something new, or that you might not know how to handle an experience you haven't dealt with before.

But they will point out the inherent contradictory nature of your need to add "I have nothing against..." to cover yourself and make yourself appear tolerant.

Kudos to Torrasque for actually admitting being human enough to not actually knowing how to handle a new situation and realising it could take some time to get used to if it ever happened.

I don't think it is a normal human reaction to look at something strange and unfamiliar and say "I don't hate or love this, but I am willing to try it and see". I am very open minded when it comes to all things and only make an opinion of it when I actually know something about it. It is why I am an atheist, love science and ponies, and listen to many different kinds of music.

So... Thanks for the kudos, I shall spend them on cookies, but don't expect my response to be the norm.

That is unfortunately a very big part of the problem of the world.

But you are wrong - it is a normal human reaction to take that stance, but humanity has been undermined in society for quite some time. It seems that people take great delight in being ignorant and bigoted, in undermining their own species, with their own shortsightedness.

The real irony is that if the situation was reversed, these people would be the first to be screaming out for their own rights to be accepted and supported. But right now, it seems like they only want the right to be an arsehole to others because they can.

jboking:

Jegsimmons:

no, i date women, only women, not guys PRETENDING to be women.
And what medical science where? Don't feed me that PC false science crap, until they can change your chromosome and DNA to 100% perfection, you are still the gender as you where born as.

There is hormone therapy and of course [link="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery"] Sex reassignment surgery. I'm sorry that medical science disagrees with your thoughts on the issue of "can we change someone's gender." Also, if your Y chromosomes no longer allow you to produce heavy amounts of testosterone and you are now able to produce more estrogen than testosterone...what is the purpose of your Y chromosome? Better yet, why should their chromosomes matter exactly? Let's say that you see someone walking down the street. The person has a delicate face, obviously real breasts, a curved waist, all the necessary features of a woman that you can tell a first glance. You two get to talking and the night seems like it is going to lead somewhere. You get to bed and behold, there is a vagina beneath the person's loins.

For the purposes of society, is that person male or female?

There is a larger issue here, though. You seem like a very angry person. Angry for no real reason. What's up with that?

well, one, people call me angry...vicious cycle really
two, i don't care what 'medical experts' say, if you were born one gender, you are stuck as that gender no matter what you do yo your self. I can darken my skin, but that doesn't make me a black guy does it?
three, if the person has both, thats a separate gender in my opinion...a gender that comes around via mutation but hey, they cant help it. I wont date them, and would be pissed they led me other wise.....but meh, we can be friends.
four, the LGBT threads are so abundant, im starting to get annoyed by them. We get it, you are not straight....stop. rubbing. it. in. my. face. damn. it. I respect your life style choice, now respect my choice of not being of that life style and not being a big fan of it. You exist. GOT IT!.

welp, time to fill up the sand bags for the shit storm im sure i just caused.

No, without question. I could not do it. The fact that someone used to be a dude/chick is literally the only thought going through my head when I meet a transsexual. It isn't something I can get passed. I don't know why. I am a terrible person >.>

I like to think myself an open-minded person, but I clearly hit the limits of that quickly.

I would never date a transgendered person. I have no issue with them as people and won't treat them as lesser beings, but I am just not attracted to that and never will be.

I would not date a transgendered person. I also wouldn't date a man. Or someone who smokes. Or had a personality that clashed with mine. There are a lot of reasons why someone wouldn't date you, and getting angry about it isn't likely to change their mind. Medical science is irrelevant. Biology is irrelevant. The word of law is irrelevant. Even logic is irrelevant. Attraction is a nebulous thing that exists in the mind and eye of the beholder. It is a fickle beast, prone to change in an instant as one's perception of a person grows clearer.

For those that think that it is okay to hide who you are, or who you once were(depending on how you look at it), just know that when the truth is known, any fallout that occurs was yours to avoid. This is the case any potentially controversial aspect of one's life. If I, as a gamer, start dating someone and intentionally omit the fact that I play video games from any conversations that we have, I really have no right to be upset if she ends up dumping me once she finds out. There's nothing wrong with my love of video games, but had I been open about it in the first place, the incompatibility between us would not have been agitated by familiarity.

peruvianskys:

There's very little evidence for a neurophysical base for gender at all. A transwoman is not really saying "I am a woman in a man's body," although that may be an easy way to explain it, but instead saying, "I am a human being who identifies with the social construct of a gender not normally associated with my biological sex." Sex is a quantifiable and objective concept; gender is social.

Reading through this forum, I consistently see the argument: "I was born with a y brain into an x body". We both agree this is not a factual statement. I fully agree that they are identifying with the cultural/social construct of the gender their biological sex isn't. There is nothing wrong with that.
But why would someone try to change their biological sex, when it has nothing to do with the social construct? They can be a very feminine man, who acts very much like a woman. You can't change your biological sex though, much like changing your DNA. Perhaps I could be persuaded to treat a transgender person differently from a man, but I see no reason to attempt to change your biological sex. Some cards that life hands you can't be changed, and must be accepted.

Saying "I don't believe in a male brain being born in a female body" is like saying "I don't believe in a Muslim brain being born in a white body." You're making the mistake of pairing up a social concept and a physical descriptor.

Religion has nothing to do with biology. This is not a skin-colour issue, nor an ethnicity issue and I dislike people bringing this up. I will never treat a transgender person in a discriminatory manner, but their biological sex will remain constant. There is no scientific evidence that they have changed their sex. Therefore I would not date them, but I would be friends with them.

It is also my right to believe that you are deluded. Are you so insecure that you care about what opinion some random guy on the internet has about transgender people?

Well it's not hard to see why a transperson would be a little insecure, when there are people belittling and diminishing them at every turn.

You have a right to believe that but it's not scientifically correct.

As of yet, no one has brought forth scientific evidence for the argument that transgender people are not the gender of their biological sex. You claim that gender and sex are dualist, with no further argument. You claim gender is a "sliding scale", on what grounds?
A male is a man, doesn't matter if he is feminine, homosexual, masculine, or heterosexual. These have nothing to do with a person's gender.

I have the right to believe that black people are evolutionarily lesser beings than white people but it's not true and it's a toxic belief that both white and black people have an interest in correcting. In the same way, both trans and a lot of cis people are probably going to be less than happy when you try and claim that it's morally neutral to spreading an unreasonable and insensitive opinion. Don't be surprised if you're attacked.

How is my opinion unreasonable? I've repeatedly said that transgender people shouldn't be discriminated against. However, I find that it is an incorrect statement to say that they have changed gender or sex. A transgender man is a very effeminate man who identifies with the female culture. He is different from a woman. He may have different opinions, mannerisms, behavior, and culture than other men, but he is still a man.
I think people should do whatever makes them happy. I think anyone should be able to marry anyone, anyone should be able to get a job anywhere. No one should be discriminated against for their beliefs, cultural identity, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual orientation, etc. People are people.

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